Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Falco

[sniperworm]

I feel that Sheik goes even, Zelda/Sheik is a slight advantage, and Zelda is a slight disadvantage. I can go more in-depth if anyone wants to debate with me?

I generally try to avoid discussing MU numbers but I felt like voicing my opinion here. I agree that Sheik is about even and Zelda/Sheik is a slight advantage, but I think Zelda is a disadvantage.

The only thing that keeps this matchup doable for Zelda is the fact that Falco's kill moves aren't safe. This should mean that she'll generally live to high percents (as he'd only try to use them if you're open). However, it's important to note that Zelda has a recovery with an extremely telegraphed startup (very vulnerable to lasers and aerials) and a laggy ending. This puts a recovering Zelda in a very uncomfortable situation and can often lead to Falco getting free smashes on Zelda (and almost always results in Falco damaging Zelda and launching her back off the stage or into the air) or her getting edgehogged.

This combined with the fact that his kill moves aren't safe (aka they'll almost always be fresh) and Falco can actually kill Zelda at respectable percents through edgeguards.

 

[-Mars-]

I generally try to avoid discussing MU numbers but I felt like voicing my opinion here. I agree that Sheik is about even and Zelda/Sheik is a slight advantage, but I think Zelda is a disadvantage.

The only thing that keeps this matchup doable for Zelda is the fact that Falco's kill moves aren't safe. This should mean that she'll generally live to high percents (as he'd only try to use them if you're open). However, it's important to note that Zelda has a recovery with an extremely telegraphed startup (very vulnerable to lasers and aerials) and a laggy ending. This puts a recovering Zelda in a very uncomfortable situation and can often lead to Falco getting free smashes on Zelda (and almost always results in Falco damaging Zelda and launching her back off the stage or into the air) or her getting edgehogged.

This combined with the fact that his kill moves aren't safe (aka they'll almost always be fresh) and Falco can actually kill Zelda at respectable percents through edgeguards.

The offstage game is pretty much a wash to me. Granted Zelda's recovery is worse.....but in no way is Falco's recovery not predictable.

On the flip side Zelda can actually venture offstage every once in a while due to Farore's fantastic distance and isn't limited to firing lasers like Falco is. Her dsmash also puts falco in a God-awful position that is almost impossible to avoid an edgeguard at around 100%. Even with proper DI her dsmash ***** Falco.

 

[MrEh]

Sure her Dsmash puts him in a bad position. Too bad Falco wrecks her offstage too. (like pretty much every character)

Her silly Dsmash doesn't constitute something like 45-55, when the disadvantage is worse.

 

[-Mars-]

Sure her Dsmash puts him in a bad position. Too bad Falco wrecks her offstage too. (like pretty much every character)

Her silly Dsmash doesn't constitute something like 45-55, when the disadvantage is worse.

Which is why I said it is a wash big guy.

After listening to Ryoko talk about the matchup and learning that Keitaro refuses to go Falco against his Zelda makes my argument viable before we even get down to specifics.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sure her Dsmash puts him in a bad position. Too bad Falco wrecks her offstage too. (like pretty much every character)

Her silly Dsmash doesn't constitute something like 45-55, when the disadvantage is worse.

if they both wreck each other off stage, how does that equate to a 60:40?

(I'm not saying that it's not a 60:40 matchup, just that that's not logical support.)

 

[MrEh]

if they both wreck each other off stage, how does that equate to a 60:40?

(I'm not saying that it's not a 60:40 matchup, just that that's not logical support.)

Because Falco wrecks her onstage too.

Is he at a distance? Then Zelda gets lasered.

Is he up close? Then Zelda gets beat up.

 

[sniperworm]

The offstage game is pretty much a wash to me. Granted Zelda's recovery is worse.....but in no way is Falco's recovery not predictable.

On the flip side Zelda can actually venture offstage every once in a while due to Farore's fantastic distance and isn't limited to firing lasers like Falco is. Her dsmash also puts falco in a God-awful position that is almost impossible to avoid an edgeguard at around 100%. Even with proper DI her dsmash ***** Falco.

Zelda already kills Falco at low percents anyway. It's not as big a deal that he can be edgeguarded. Besides a failed edgeguard for Zelda is just as lethal for her as it is for Falco (remember that Zelda has one of the easiest recoveries to spike/edgehog).

Not to mention that Falco can venture offstage as well (he doesn't have to go far off, just far enough to force Zelda to use her UpB to recover because Zelda can't win a direct aerial confrontation while recovering and will be forced to retreat/go around Falco). This leads to kills for Falco at earlier percents than you imply (you asked if Falcos can land smashes on Zelda instead of waiting for Bair, this is how he lands them).

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Is he at a distance? Then Zelda gets lasered.

true

Is he up close? Then Zelda gets beat up.

not as true. Zelda is more than capable of going blow for blow with falco in melee range.

 

[-Mars-]

Zelda's OoS options are far more lethal than Falco's......he is primarily limited to using his jab(albeit though it is one of the better moves in the game) OoS to cancel into a grab........and his grab game is not as effective on Zelda as it is on other characters. Zelda's OoS options punish HARD.

 

[MrEh]

Zelda's OoS options are far more lethal than Falco's......he is primarily limited to using his jab(albeit though it is one of the better moves in the game) OoS to cancel into a grab........and his grab game is not as effective on Zelda as it is on other characters. Zelda's OoS options punish HARD.

You can't punish Falco's lasers up close. That cancels into ANYTHING.

Nothing short of a Dolphin Slash or Fortress OoS came beat that.


And Zelda's OoS options are terrible. All you have is Dtilt and Dsmash.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

You can't punish Falco's lasers up close. That cancels into ANYTHING.

Nothing short of a Dolphin Slash or Fortress OoS came beat that.


And Zelda's OoS options are terrible. All you have is Dtilt and Dsmash.

upsmash, which is fast, BTW, so it'll work any time he's close enough.

OOS LK is **** scary, though harder to pull off.

 

[-Mars-]

Bair says hullo.

 

[MrEh]

Bair says hullo.

I'll silent laser, while you try to Bair OoS.


Let's see who wins.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You can't punish Falco's lasers up close. That cancels into ANYTHING.

Nothing short of a Dolphin Slash or Fortress OoS came beat that.


And Zelda's OoS options are terrible. All you have is Dtilt and Dsmash.

If your that close to falco when he silent lasers and you can do anything about it then you deserve to lose.

 

[MrEh]

If your that close to falco when he silent lasers and you can do anything about it then you deserve to lose.

You have no choice but to be close to Falco.

What are you gonna do? Let him camp you with lasers all day?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You have no choice but to be close to Falco.

What are you gonna do? Let him camp you with lasers all day?

No but there's no reason he should be able to silent laser you while you're close to him if he's doing that then you must be twiddling your thumbs or something.

 

[-Mars-]

You have no choice but to be close to Falco.

What are you gonna do? Let him camp you with lasers all day?

If I have a lead? Sure.......they're not hard to avoid.

 

[Kataefi]

Just a quick heads up to keep this debate informed and civil. I don't want to see any malice or trolling or anything.

 

[MrEh]

If I have a lead? Sure.......they're not hard to avoid.

Let's assume that you don't. Falco will probably have the percentage lead.

No but there's no reason he should be able to silent laser you while you're close to him if he's doing that then you must be twiddling your thumbs or something.

He can always just jab you. Zelda loses.

Just a quick heads up to keep this debate informed and civil. I don't want to see any malice or trolling or anything.

I don't troll unless someone says something extremely stupid.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

He can always just jab you. Zelda loses.

So which one is it getting jabbed or getting silent lasered while in jab range

 

[MrEh]

So which one is it getting jabbed or getting silent lasered while in jab range

Either.

The fact that Falco has multiple options while Zelda is limited to just smashing gives him a huge edge.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Either.

The fact that Falco has multiple options while Zelda is limited to just smashing gives him a huge edge.

falco has two options that you've mentioned.

we've mentiomed more for zelda.... And they are quite functional.

 

[-Mars-]

Let's assume that you don't. Falco will probably have the percentage lead

The word probably has no place in a matchup discussion.

 

[MrEh]

falco has two options that you've mentioned.

we've mentiomed more for zelda.... And they are quite functional.

He can also choose to run away, approach with a shield, and punish.

Zelda is so easily punishable that it's absurd. She's easy to bait and therefore easy to punish since she lags hard. That's simply a character trait.

we've menti.omed more for zelda.... And they are quite functional.

Too bad all of them are beaten by his jab and lasers.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Too bad all of them are beaten by his jab and lasers.

except when they aren't. Honestly there are times when he's not in a good positioning for either. As good as those options are, otherwise, at close range, he doesn't have much, and our options beat out his in those cases.

 

[sniperworm]

I'd like to point out again that Falco's ability to edgeguard Zelda means that this isn't true:

I've actually found that most Falco's will wait until a fresh bair will kill instead of opting for a riskier kill move......correct me if i'm wrong.

So Falco will be killing Zelda at fairly reasonable percents.

And that this is not a fair assessment:

The offstage game is pretty much a wash to me.

Because Falco kills significantly earlier with Fsmash and Usmash than he does with Bair. While Zelda, on the other hand, will be using a smash on Falco's recovery (which are her usual kill moves).

This shifts the MU more in Falco's favor than it previously was when it was called 55-45 Falco.

 

[-Mars-]

He can also choose to run away, approach with a shield, and punish.

Zelda is so easily punishable that it's absurd. She's easy to bait and therefore easy to punish since she lags hard. That's simply a character trait.

Too bad all of them are beaten by his jab and lasers.

Depends on how you play her.......it's funny to me because all of you Hawaii cats have this idea that DM is some amazing Zelda player and therefore you know her inside and out. Your used to this whole idea of Zelda gameplay that includes a bunch of random attempted lightning kicks and fsmashing 100 times a match.

Like I said, go watch a little Ryoko and you will see how a patient, effecient Zelda with the proper usage of moves can be played extremely quick.

 

[sniperworm]

Depends on how you play her.......it's funny to me because all of you Hawaii cats have this idea that DM is some amazing Zelda player and therefore you know her inside and out. Your used to this whole idea of Zelda gameplay that includes a bunch of random attempted lightning kicks and fsmashing 100 times a match.

Well, this statement isn't funny to me at all. Insulting an entire smash community (myself included) based on what you assume to be true is really messed up. Especially since you're basing it on MrEh's posts, the Zelda board's resident troll, while ignoring my own posts.

 

[MrEh]

Depends on how you play her.......

That's why I said it was a character trait. Her moveset is predictable, so you have to make up for it by player skill.

it's funny to me because all of you Hawaii cats have this idea that DM is some amazing Zelda player and therefore you know her inside and out.

So you think that DM sucks then? XD

Well, this statement isn't funny to me at all. Insulting an entire smash community (myself included) based on what you assume to be true is really messed up. Especially since you're basing it on MrEh's posts, the Zelda board's resident troll, while ignoring my own posts.

I'm somewhat insulted too.

Your used to this whole idea of Zelda gameplay that includes a bunch of random attempted lightning kicks and fsmashing 100 times a match.

That's what Zelda is. Smashes and Kicks. If you think that you can do better, then post a video of you using Zelda in tournament sets and winning.

Like I said, go watch a little Ryoko and you will see how a patient, effecient Zelda with the proper usage of moves can be played extremely quick.

*laughs*

Dude, Ryoko doesn't even play Zelda seriously. He hasn't been playing recently last I heard.

 

[-Mars-]

No offense meant. It works for DM because he is a very good player and is very good at reading his opponents but he does not play Zelda the way she is most effective.

His playstyle works for him and him alone and I am sick of Zelda being stereotyped based off of his playstyle.

 

[MrEh]

It works for DM because he is a very good player and is very good at reading his opponents but he does not play Zelda the way she is most effective.

Does not play Zelda the way she's most effective? How is she most effective then?

Enlighten us.

His playstyle works for him and him alone and I am sick of Zelda being stereotyped based off of his playstyle.

I'm sick of Zelda players not placing in tournaments.

 

[-Mars-]

That's why I said it was a character trait. Her moveset is predictable, so you have to make up for it by player skill.



So you think that DM sucks then? XD



I'm somewhat insulted too.



That's what Zelda is. Smashes and Kicks. If you think that you can do better, then post a video of you using Zelda in tournament sets and winning.



*laughs*

Dude, Ryoko doesn't even play Zelda seriously. He hasn't been playing recently last I heard.

No he doesn't suck.....he just doesn't play Zelda the way I feel she could be played with the proper usage of her moveset.

Ryoko doesn't play Brawl seriously at all.....................and he consistently beats top players with his Zelda.

 

[sniperworm]

No offense meant. It works for DM because he is a very good player and is very good at reading his opponents but he does not play Zelda the way she is most effective.

His playstyle works for him and him alone and I am sick of Zelda being stereotyped based off of his playstyle.

Um, okay ... but if you read my post you'd realize that I was offended by your blatant disrespect for Hawaii smashers, not for saying stuff about how DM plays.

 

[-Mars-]

Does not play Zelda the way she's most effective? How is she most effective then?

Enlighten us.


I'm sick of Zelda players not placing in tournaments.

Let go of the smash stick my young padawan.

I'm sick of hard counters to Zelda with most of the more commonly seen tournament characters in Brawl.........but what does this have to do with the Falco matchup discussion?

 

[MrEh]

Let go of the smash stick my young padawan.

That's all Zelda is. Smashing. If you think otherwise, then try winning without it.

No he doesn't suck.....he just doesn't play Zelda the way I feel she could be played with the proper usage of her moveset.

Yes, because the way you feel she should be played certainly works in tournaments. If that were the case, you'd be the best Zelda, not DM.

Ryoko doesn't play Brawl seriously at all.....................and he consistently beats top players with his Zelda.

Does he beat them in tournament sets? No? That's what I thought.

I'm sick of hard counters to Zelda with most of the more commonly seen tournament characters in Brawl.........

Because that's what they are! Counters!

Nearly every high tier counters Zelda. Because Zelda is a terrible character!

 

[-Mars-]

Um, okay ... but if you read my post you'd realize that I was offended by your blatant disrespect for Hawaii smashers, not for saying stuff about how DM plays.

I don't give a s*** to be honest with you. All I said was that all you guys in Hawaii base your opinions of Zelda off of firsthand experience against DM, and guess what?......you do.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

No he doesn't suck.....he just doesn't play Zelda the way I feel she could be played with the proper usage of her moveset.

Ryoko doesn't play Brawl seriously at all.....................and he consistently beats top players with his Zelda.

for what it's worth. I've always agreed with this statement. I've hated DM's playstyle, but I can't really fault him for using it because he has the prediction skills, the reaction time and the environment that it works.

for most zelda players though, Ryoko's style is much more attractive. And who cares if he still plays zelda seriously or not? if it's still a good style, it's still a good style.

 

[MrEh]

I don't give a s*** to be honest with you.

Dude, me and SniperWorm have been very civil. And yet you post stuff like this.

All I said was that all you guys in Hawaii base your opinions of Zelda off of firsthand experience against DM, and guess what?......you do.

When we base our experiences from other Zeldas as well. Too bad none of those Zeldas place in tournaments.

And who cares if he still plays zelda seriously or not? if it's still a good style, it's still a good style.

Who cares? Every competent player should care.

Beating someone on friendlies is not the same as beating someone in tournament sets.

 

[-Mars-]

That's all Zelda is. Smashing. If you think otherwise, then try winning without it.



Yes, because the way you feel she should be played certainly works in tournaments. If that were the case, you'd be the best Zelda, not DM.




Does he beat them in tournament sets? No? That's what I thought.



Because that's what they are! Counters!

Nearly every high tier counters Zelda. Because Zelda is a terrible character!

What makes you qualified to discuss Zelda so much? About the same as me.

Matters little about tournament sets.........there are plenty of tournaments around the country. Ryoko would fare well at big time east coast tournaments........nobody doubts that. If I were to place in a ****ty *** tournament with Zelda what would that matter?

Zelda being a bad character has nothing to do with the Falco matchup once again.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Who cares? Every competent player should care.

Beating someone on friendlies is not the same as beating someone in tournament sets.

it is if you don't really PLAY tournamnet sets.

I cannot agree with your logic here. I understand where you're coming from that results proven not to work in a tournament setting should be discounted... but when you're not ever seriosuly playing tourney sets, then you can neither prove nor disprove that hypothesis.