Matchup rediscussion: Lucario!

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Seeing as the lucario boards has a different opinion then us, let's invite them and come to a conclusion in this matchup pleasedontgimpme

Discuss

 

[Notra]

i see falco play lucario like a mk. we have to keep to rly close or rly far for advantage. problem is lucario cant be cheap even close to mk.

 

[Emperor Time]

His CG is vicious. He has COMBOS. He plays beatdown like mofo. He's very dangerous to fight in close quarters. This MU is all about spacing and killing early.

Will write more later(Maybe)

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

If you want to approach Lucario, stay out of grab range. Use lasers (near/far) to keep him on the ground. I don't think Fsmash has enough range. Try killing with Usmash.

I'd encourage to grab more to set stuff up.

 

[erick gm14]

killing lucario is a bi*** if the lucario can DI well.. never decay your upsmash until u think it can kill at the 140+%(estimate).. lucario's may aura sphere when u side-b onto the stage so side-b onto the ledge to be safe when u recover. u mustn't let lucario get the first kill, he will rack up damage rather fast with aura at high%, his f-smash out ranges ours, i'd say 40-60 lucario's favor.. thats just me.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

It's been awhile since I've faced a legitimate Lucario (been about a week )

As mentioned before, the match-up requires decent amount of spacing and I say keep lucario to an arms length at all times. Getting too close for too long can be costly. It puts you more at risk to being comboed. At a distance lucario really cannot do much to us. His projectile can be reflected and we can laser him all day. Racking up damage on lucario won't be a problem. Our Dthrow leads to a Dair and tech chasing and extra damage after that. Laser, AAA, phantasm and other attacks will rack up the damage easily. The problem is the increased strength that comes from so much damage. Falco having a great time increasing lucario's strength and never killing must seem like a boon to lucario. I'm not really sure what to do about that. I think Falco just has to live with it. Trying to kill lucario as soon as possible will be like trying to get a grab all the time. We will usually screw up. I say just try to play as normal the whole match, rack damage like normal and then kill when you can. Even if it means lucario gets to like 180% x.X

I'll add/or organize my grammatical nightmare later. But for now, I really am not sure what to believe. Frankly, lucario is like disadvantaged against Falco at low percents, while Falco is outclassed at high percents. For now, I guess I'll vote for Lucario's favor. The reason is that Lucario probably can outlast Falco enough that he can abuse the high percent strength he gets before getting KOed.

I don't think Fsmash has enough range. Try killing with Usmash.

I'd encourage to grab more to set stuff up.

I find that funny. Fsmash doesn't have enough range, so use the attack with less range to kill. That makes total sense! LOL But, Usmash is better anyway. Easier to land.

 

[Jupz]

You can outcamp from a distance and have the upper hand in terms of projectile pressuring. Up Close, keep out of his tiny grab range as he can combo you easily at low percents from it. His Fsmash outranges all your options on the ground. His aerials are fast and beat all yours in range and priority except for our bair. He can't be chaingrabbed. Its important to get the first kill, as otherwise he can build up damage as he has more power. If you get the first kill, it will be hard for him to make the kill on such a low percent. He's very floaty, and beware of his Dair stalling as you could get caught out. His jab has more range but ours is much faster. His Ftilt is multi-hit, so don't try to shieldgrab it instantly, and his utilt can juggle you a few times at low percents. Also watch out for aura sphere at higher percents, keep in mind it can knock you out of phantasm.

Don't pick Jungle japes - lucarios like this stage and although you can spike him off a Dthrow you can't CG him to the edge. Not really sure what a good stage is here.

Bad stages
- PS1 (you can't outcamp him, he has the best walljump and cling by far)
- Yoshis Island (He has more recovery options here, plus not that good for falco anyway
-Frigate orpheon (same as above)

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Outcamping him is quite easy, he doesn't has anything with a lasting hitbox that he can use to react to phantasm. If you get predicted prepare to eat an aura sphere though.
Watch out for close combat because you'll get wrecked hard, and if he gets you offstage your chance of survival is nigh.
camp camp camp.

55/45 Falco

 

[Emperor Time]

Fighting him close up IS pretty deadly, but I find that camping doesn't always work b/c he can approach easily. When that happens...:/

We really don't have many options considering his Utilt Chains, Cg, and range. Challenging him in the air is also dangerous b/c his Dair is strong and has a large hitbox.

Killing here is pretty hard considering his weight. I'd say bair is a good choice b/c it uisually doesn't get eaten by Dair and is harder to punish. Don't forget to gimp.

I also second not taking him to Frigate. His recovery weakness is pretty much nullified there.

I still think it's 55:45 Luca's favor considering how much he ***** us in close quarters and our lack of options there.

 

[phi1ny3]

Aha!
Well, it's been awhile since I've fought a good falco (the last one was Jem, and obviously he switched), tbh, I've looked at this MU over and over again, and despite the control the lasers provide, I think the best falco can do is 50:50, but I certainly think it's 55:45 lucario's favor.

Outcamping him is quite easy, he doesn't has anything with a lasting hitbox that he can use to react to phantasm. If you get predicted prepare to eat an aura sphere though.
Watch out for close combat because you'll get wrecked hard, and if he gets you offstage your chance of survival is nigh.
camp camp camp.

55/45 Falco

lol Lucario has plenty of "lasting" hitboxes. It's what makes his fsmash, usmash, fair, and nearly most of our moveset different from most. Fantasm can be punished by fsmash, AS, usmash, ftilt, and some other moves (I wouldn't recommend much beyond that though).
Just an FYI, if you mash on your controls really, really, fast, you can escape FP CG. We found out that we can go for a buffered walking jab/grab after it though, so the 30-40 damage or so isn't lost so much anyways.
He's gonna keep you in his zone, get campy or punish him.
As you all know, the regular CG will not work on lucario (maybe like 2 throws at most), and iirc, the dthrow -> dair -> regrab can be avoided, but still, use dthrow to setup for some aerials. Obviously watch out for dair. Both chars have good options for gimping, although imo, falco is just slightly easier to gimp (although it's not by much ). Falco's inability to have a CG to rack up mad fast damage and lack of good solid kill options really hurts him in this MU, although he certainly has a freaky control/camp game he can play.
Like I said, I say 55:45 lucario's favor. Lucario's mid-range game isn't hindered much in this MU, falco and lucario are about on par when going head on, but the ability to get a reaction via lasers really helps falco from turning this into a 60:40 MU.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

lol Lucario has plenty of "lasting" hitboxes. It's what makes his fsmash, usmash, fair, and nearly most of our moveset different from most. Fantasm can be punished by fsmash, AS, usmash, ftilt, and some other moves (I wouldn't recommend much beyond that though).

His fsmash, yeah true, but it's not fast enough to react to phantasm.
Usmash has no hitbox where you want it, and fair also has the problem of having jump startup, then you have to go down enough to interrupt.

Phantasm isn't punishable if the Falco knows anything about the metagame. IAP (Instant aerial phantasm) will terminate most of the lag from phantasm.

Just droppin'

 

[phi1ny3]

oops, yeah fsmash/usmash certainly shouldn't be if you're recovering intelligently.
I don't recall stating fair as a good phantasm punisher though, but it still has some good lasting frames for when it's being used for walling and approaching and such.
fun facts about lucario usmash: his whole body's the hitbox, and on the first few frames of activation, iirc he gets invincibility frames or something of the sort. (goes to check again o~o)
Oh yeah, and grab is also something to watch out for when recovering (at least pivot grab is, lucario's got a pretty good one with the slide and all).

 

[D. Disciple]

Phil if you're going to punish Falco's phantasm. Your best bet is to use any of your tilts. If they are shooting lasers like a mofo, you can crawl under them, dtilt the Falco, it'll pop them up and then you can continue to get in their face.

Also if you figure out the Falco's pattern with phantasm, you can predict with a roll to grab all the time.

Playing against SK92 though, showed that Falco can **** Lucario pretty well in close quarters if he keeps constant pressure and reading where he goes. But all in all Falco has to keep his distance from Lucario, cause if you don't kill him and if Lucario is around 60-80% it's not a good idea to be really close to us. I give this match up 55:45 to Lucario.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Phil if you're going to punish Falco's phantasm. Your best bet is to use any of your tilts. If they are shooting lasers like a mofo, you can crawl under them, dtilt the Falco, it'll pop them up and then you can continue to get in their face. Feel free to tell me of an intelligent Falco that let you get that close

Also if you figure out the Falco's pattern with phantasm, you can predict with a roll to grab all the time. A Falco shouldn't have a main pattern in phantasm, being unpredictable is one of the biggest part in the game

Playing against SK92 though, showed that Falco can **** Lucario pretty well in close quarters if he keeps constant pressure and reading where he goes. But all in all Falco has to keep his distance from Lucario, cause if you don't kill him and if Lucario is around 60-80% it's not a good idea to be really close to us. I give this match up 55:45 to Lucario.I still haven't heard anything that can beat a good campy Falco, your best bet being dair to predict phantasm, but you can't lock the option out completely. Besides being attacked with Falco in phantasm is pretty much impossible as the first half has invincibility frames. And no smart Falco will ever phantasm at mid distance, but rather wait till the last point in time when you can't really interrupt it in the phantasm or before it.

replies in red

 

[Kitamerby]

Falco should just keep camping the entire match. If he tries to attack with any A move other than a jab he'll lose immediately. Usmash at 237% and you're set.

Also, Lucario's usmash/aura sphere is very viable for taking out Phantasm (if they recover to the stage). I know this from experience that Phantasm may clank if he's still invincible, but he will never win and at best he'll take the strong hit and die because Usmash is actually quite powerful if it connects on startup. =D

But seriously, Falco loses hard in close quarters unless all he's doing is spotdodge, jab, or phantasm. If he tries anything else he immediately loses. Lucario has a very noticeable advantage if you do anything but camp, so pretend it's the marth matchup except he kills you at 60 if you stop camping.

tl;dr camp or die.

It's even imo. Could go either way because if Lucario can get past that camping, Falco's a piece of cake, but if he can't, he can't do **** until Falco feels like attempting an usmash that gets punished.

If he didn't have those god**** no-lag lasers Falco would be countered super hard, though. (And people call OUR character gay....)

Also, Xonar, even if you're mostly right, I have to say you're wrong about the idea of Lucario having no lasting hitboxes. Lucario's claim to fame sans Aura is actually how freaking long his hitboxes last. Just a fun fact there.


Oh and if your opponent's Lucario is dumb and rolls everywhere, charge fsmash behind you and pretend you're SK92 so you'll kill at 80.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

The match-up would get 50:50 if all Falco players could read opponents well. Close combat is not Falco's strong point, as it is with Lucario. That Aura ability gives Lucario the match-up if you don't kill early. Like I said before, stay out of grab range (which shouldn't be TOO hard) I don't remember if Lucario is better in the air of ground (excluding cg) but see which one the opponent uses more and take advantage of that.

Mix your style up a bit too, like going in a out for a few hits, then delivering the kill. 45:55 Lucario.

 

[Aurasmash14]

I main both Chars so i have a bit of info on how to beat him.

Camp Lucario like **** then score a kill. Its your only hope.
an intelligent Lucario will do **** in order to get close.
to other Falcos CloseCombat(the technique) Isnt as effective On Falco as opposed to larger characters. However, its goal is to get you off the ledge so near the ledge expect the FP , Jab or The fair>nair combo..

Keep away from frigate and Yoshi's island. those are Lucario's best stages.

Lucario's aerials can start beating out Phantasm at around 70%. When Camping Try phantasming past him before he can set up a Dair or a nair.

Off the ledge Fire away on lasers to keep Lucario away. that Fsmash of his ****'s falco up with its range and long lasting hitbox.

overall, A smart Falco will keep away as much as possible. If he goes within tilt range expect a brutal retaliation.

I wont give Numbers (since i love both of them) But just remember to stay away and you'll wipe the floor with him.
Good Luck


Edit- Oh btw try not to get into an aerial fight. you have Bair to keep him away, but eventually Lucario will **** your *** off if you stay up too long.

 

[phi1ny3]

lol I know it's convenient to talk about numbers with good habits, but it's good numbers that you assume they do those habits (lol c wat I did thur) aka, matchups are supposed to be taken at highest level of play.

also, I forgot that dair could be another potentially good punisher for phantasm, but I'd have to see % at which it will work.
Camp hard. Play your close game very wisely and get into your "laser" zoning, and don't get offstage vs. lucario, although if you make it to the edge itself, you'll be much, much safer. I bet you guys get a bit of beef hearing "phantasm is crap for getting back onstage" and I understand that you guys have methods to make it work out much less predictably, but keep in mind that doesn't stop it's shortcomings (just like how much we'd like ES to work out, but we've learned to just use our stalling, second jump, lingering aerials, and AS to make getting back much more safer, but we still can't change that ES when read is a pretty average/meh recovery).

Also @Aurasmash, I don't think they were aware of my little "Pseudo-combo" when they were talking about "Close Combat", just referring possibly to Melee, close-quarters fighting (or as Bengals likes to call it "Boxing").

 

[Aurasmash14]

Also @Aurasmash, I don't think they were aware of my little "Pseudo-combo" when they were talking about "Close Combat", just referring possibly to Melee, close-quarters fighting (or as Bengals likes to call it "Boxing").

Oh whoops. eh.. its not like it would work well with falco anyway.

 

[Kitamerby]

Lucario's aerials can start beating out Phantasm at around 70%. When Camping Try phantasming past him before he can set up a Dair or a nair.

If I recall right, Phantasm's hitbox is behind him, meaning anything beats him out. The only reason Phantasm has the illusion of priority is the invincibility frames on the first third/half of the phantasm.

Also @Aurasmash, I don't think they were aware of my little "Pseudo-combo" when they were talking about "Close Combat", just referring possibly to Melee, close-quarters fighting (or as Bengals likes to call it "Boxing").

Actually it seemed more like a misnomer for ForcePalm the way I read it. Lucario's very-close range game is CRAP, especially compared to Falco.

 

[phi1ny3]

If I recall right, Phantasm's hitbox is behind him, meaning anything beats him out. The only reason Phantasm has the illusion of priority is the invincibility frames on the first third/half of the phantasm.


Actually it seemed more like a misnomer for ForcePalm the way I read it. Lucario's very-close range game is CRAP, especially compared to Falco.

True 'dat.
Lucario's gonna need to keep falco in his better zone, which luckily for lucario, has pretty good attack attributes to do so.

 

[BleachigoZX]

I don't know about it being Lucario's favor, I usually don't have trouble beating Lucarios in NJ.

 

[Kitamerby]

I don't know about it being Lucario's favor, I usually don't have trouble beating Lucarios in NJ.

I'm not sure if it's in Lucario's favor per say, but it's most likely either even, or not in Falco's favor. Lucario has some definite advantages over Falco in his own right, and Falco has his against Lucario.

From far distances, Falco completely wrecks Lucario via camping. Lagless SHLs and SHDLs coupled with a reflector make return fire virtually useless.

When both characters are directly next to each other, Lucario is also going to be in pretty bad shape because of Falco's 2 frame jab. Lucario sadly is not a very fast character, and his fastest ground attack is a tie between his jab and grab, both at 6 frames, which is pretty sad. However, one thing you should probably keep in mind, is that even if your jab outspeeds everything Lucario has, you should probably NOT spotdodge very much. Pretty much the entirety of Lucario's moveset lingers enough to easily punish even those 2 frames of vulnerability on your spotdodge.

At mid range, Falco probably also has an advantage, because he can not only keep camping, but Phantasm away if need be. However, I'm not sure as to the extent of Falco's invincibility on Falco Phantasm, but I'm pretty sure the very edge of that invincibility is once again a very bad zone for Lucario.

Regardless of how hard it is to get inside Falco's amazing camping, the tides change when Lucario actually lands a hit. Falco is a very fast faller with pitiful air movement and a very bad air game when it comes to priority when compared to Lucario. If Lucario can get Falco into the air, or stuck in one of Lucario's low % combos, or even in Lucario's Force Palm pseudo-CG, Falco is going to have a really hard time getting far enough again to camp. In the air, Lucario completely shuts Falco down. I don't know how many Falcos (including SK92 lol) have tried to uair me just to get Daired and killed off the top themselves. I know Falco's uair is an addicting move (I know I spam it whenever I choose Falco. So fun lol), but don't use it against Lucario. Falco's Dair, Nair, and even his Bair sadly suffer the same fate against an airborne Lucario. Falco's pretty easy to juggle/harrass offstage/pseudocombo/gimp because of this.

The other definite advantage Lucario has is in the killing department. As we all know, Falco has a very tough time killing early unless your name is SK92 in which case you can hit anyone with a charged fsmash by pretending you're using Ike. As we also should know, Lucario gets more powerful in both damage and knockback (no range increase, and not priority unless you count that slight damage increase as an increase in priority) as his % gauge gets higher, capping off at 170%, but amazingly he can usually still string together hits relatively well even at relatively high aura. We should also know that Falco is a lightweight, while Lucario is slightly above average both horizontally and vertically. Add together the fact that all of Lucario's attacks kill VERY well at high aura, and that it's not at all unreasonable to live to 170 against a Falco with good DI and by avoiding that usmash/fsmash/dsmashlol/uair, and Falco is going to have a REALLY hard time when it finally comes down to crunch time and he has to move in for the kill. I'm pretty sure I get like 70% of my damage output on super campy falcos by just waiting and punishing when they finally start moving in for kill moves. Also Falco will probably die in the 80-90s easily against a full-powered or nearly-full-powered Lucario. Add in that most of Lucario's attacks will do like 10-20+% between mid and full aura, and Falco is in pretty bad shape when it comes to who'll probably land a kill first, since Lucario can kill reliably with like everything he has but ftilt, fair, jabs, dtilt, and ExtremeSpeed.

Honestly though Falco doesn't have to settle for either of them if he just keeps camping though. If you really wanna make Lucario an easy matchup, win by time and never ever get close, just like any other matchup lol. Also it might be good to note that Lucario is pretty much the reason reflectors exist in brawl (other than maybe Diddy lol). Reflecting charged aura spheres to get an early first kill would be VERY beneficial to you, since chances are a reflected Aura Sphere has more kill power than Falco's entire moveset.

I'll say this once more: Pretend your A moves other than jab don't exist. Phantasm, Laser, Jab, Reflector. That should be your entire moveset if you want to win. As we know Falco doesn't have an easy time killing, just forget about killing then and win on % and time. If you play safe the entire match and don't ever let Lucario close in, then Falco will win regardless. Realistically though, you probably will be hurt hard by Falco's lack of killing ability and his susceptibility to strings at least once in the match. I know I've nearly beaten SK92 some time ago because Aura is bull**** and he didn't camp me enough.

 

[phi1ny3]

Kita, you forgot utilt = 5 frames startup on the back end.
Still, obviously lucario doesn't have a notably speedy moveset.

 

[Emperor Time]

Lucario still wins this. I can't really say this is even. 55:45 Luca for sure.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

People like Kitamerby make this really alot easier.

I'd say we make it 55:45 advantage lucario.

 

[phi1ny3]

I agree, Kita does 3-stock discussion at times ^_^
It's too bad he doesn't come as often as he used to.
55:45 luca is still pretty even though, just means there's an edge in play, falco can still camp lucario to kingdom-come.

 

[RickShaw626]

I have the courtesy to play a Lucario often and i can say this. I agree with it being in 55:45 for Lucario. Close range is tough, his grabs at early percentage are a really good way to cancel falco out. Camping seems to me as the only option. Recovering can be a disaster if they read the phantasm. For killing upsmash is best but it can be predictable so try to be crafty with it. I usually get him with a lazer to DACUS. So since this has all been said i feal like i am repeating other people >.<. But one thing i can offer is a tip i do. When they are recovering i ledgehog and bait their upB to go over the ledge on the stage, and if read correctly you can spike them by jumping up from the ledge. Spiking is usefull for killing lucario.

 

[BleachigoZX]

The way I imagine Falco being played in this match-up though is simple though. There isn't any reason to get hit, Falco has so many escape options(Phantasm/DashAttack/CampingTactic) that it doesn't matter how close Lucario gets, because we can get away.

Also I'm pretty sure after being shot straight up in the air, attempting to Uair Lucario is dumb. Double Jump Bair towards Lucarios back is probably the safest thing to do next to nothing.

Just becuase Lucario gets stronger does not mean that he is harder to kill he still dies at the 170 range (The lastest, we should have him dead at 140). We can out camp Lucario and not have to bait for a kill, just "pewpew Oh look you are in Dashattack/Uptilt range, combo, stock"

Though I'm sure combo the match goes like this:

Falco/Lucario gets lead
Lucario dies/takes damage
Falco loses stock
Falco then loses advantage due to Lucs Aura Boost
Match evens up, repeat.


I don't know...I think it is 55:45 Falco, thats what I think.

 

[Aurasmash14]

I agree, Kita does 3-stock discussion at times ^_^
It's too bad he doesn't come as often as he used to.
55:45 luca is still pretty even though, just means there's an edge in play, falco can still camp lucario to kingdom-come.

I specifically remember somebody else saying that long ago

 

[Aurasmash14]

The way I imagine Falco being played in this match-up though is simple though. There isn't any reason to get hit, Falco has so many escape options(Phantasm/DashAttack/CampingTactic) that it doesn't matter how close Lucario gets, because we can get away.




I don't know...I think it is 55:45 Falco, thats what I think.

This is where your a bit wrong bud, Lucario can easily halt most escapes to get near, Ftilt, fsmash, AS, so many attacks that can bloc escape routes, hell even upsmash can block trying to Phantasm over him. It MATTERS how close lucario gets, because an experienced one will make sure you wont get away unscarred.

maybe the lucario's you fight in NJ arent experienced with falco yet, but personally i find it easy to catch him.

 

[Emperor Time]

How about BPG in this MU? Not with regards to getting him while he's landing(which is pretty **** stupid), but as an escape option.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

@ET: Dont' get hit by aura on your way out. It's a possiblity. If you mess up, you might eat an AuraSphere if you time the decsion to run away. But I dont' think that will happen, it's rare that lucario will try hit falco with aura while falco is grounded. But yeah, I'd say it's a decent option so long as you aren't in his face when you decid to try it. Aura might get you.

This is where your a bit wrong bud, Lucario can easily halt most escapes to get near, Ftilt, fsmash, AS, so many attacks that can bloc escape routes, hell even upsmash can block trying to Phantasm over him. It MATTERS how close lucario gets, because an experienced one will make sure you wont get away unscarred.

maybe the lucario's you fight in NJ arent experienced with falco yet, but personally i find it easy to catch him.

Maybe your not facing the experienced Falco? The stories work both ways lol

 

[Aurasmash14]

Maybe your not facing the experienced Falco? The stories work both ways lol

True true, it could be but im just correcting his statement on "their isn't any reason to get hit" Falco CAN escape but a good lucario will stop it, and deliver the hurt.

 

[Teran]

Falco is not at a disadvantage to Lucario.

 

[erick gm14]

I don't know about it being Lucario's favor, I usually don't have trouble beating Lucarios in NJ.

i think zuko (i think thats his name) and ksizzle are the only lucario's in NJ.. ksizzle doesnt go lucario much though.. (i hope he searched his name LOLZ).. bleach, u must face his lucario and see how the matchup is.. im most definite its lucarios favor, if falco killed a lil better itd be even >_>... but thats an IF..

 

[Inaphyt]

i find run at lucario turn around sh bair to work pretty well aswell, if you want to beat a lucario up close learn his moves try playing falco with no lasers, so that when it does come to close combat you can actually do something instead of run away like a squirrel.

 

[Aurasmash14]

iRJi is another Lucario in NJ. and its PK zucco.

Edit- @Inaphyt don't! seriously. Falco camps like crazy for a reason. its hard for him to hold his own on close combat against other chars.


oh yeah sorry for sticking around here so much guys. but the lucario boards are quite dead for blazblue so I might aw well hang here if thats cool with you people.

 

[erick gm14]

lol ohh pk zucco.. i lost to him at rd to veridian 2 months ago.. all my ppl said hes a breeze, but they r no falco mainer... underestimating for a falco mainer is my weakness and i lost.. my upsmash was stale and i couldnt kill at the percent i could kill him.. hes a rather good lucario!

RAR b-air... hmm that could work..

 

[BleachigoZX]

I've beaten Zucco and RJ countless of times. I haven't played Ksizzle ever since ever so I wouldn't know.

Edit:

RJ is in my brawl crew. He's too good!
Zucco is one of my better more realistic friends of the smash community.