• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Matchup of the Day Thread

traffic.

traffic.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 1, 2012
Messages
427
a 90:10 matchup implies that the hard stats (things like, speed difference, power vs knockback susceptibility, vulnerability to character specific variables) are stacked heavily against/for the parties. Things that a player needs to be very aware of and proficient in their knowledge and application of the matchup to make it winnable against the implied odds. Which in this case would be 9:1.

The fluid variables of the two humans playing the specific match are not what a matchup chart has any possibility of quantifying. The chart itself is totally useless without reference material to explain why the matchup is ranked as nigh unwinnable (for dramatic flair) however if you are the type of person who is going to take the MU chart for a concrete finality, then you are ignoring all higher aspects of the mental game anyways, making the discussion moot anyways. Just like the tier list, these tools are rough indicators and do not hold any real weight over the two people playing's chances.

For scrubs, it means they might ask more questions or look for information on the matchup instead of taking the chart stats as finality. For anyone who knows their matchups and what they are up against and where their character's strengths and weaknesses lie, they could actually say "yeah i win about 3/10 matches against x character" and explain those ideas.

Aside from refuting the hard application of the MU chart (which while i completely agree with rejecting it as a final solution) I'm not sure what your stake is in arguing the difference of writing it as a ratio and as an integer is.
 
Kink-Link5

Kink-Link5

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
6,232
Location
Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum
traffic. said:
a 90:10 matchup implies that the hard stats (things like, speed difference, power vs knockback susceptibility, vulnerability to character specific variables) are stacked heavily against/for the parties. Things that a player needs to be very aware of and proficient in their knowledge and application of the matchup to make it winnable against the implied odds. Which in this case would be 9:1.
Click to expand...
Is that not what the implication of an 80:20 matchup is as well?
 
GMaster171

GMaster171

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
676
Location
Halifax, NS
OkamiBW said:
I believe Ness can also CG Falcon.
Click to expand...
Im not sure if he can outright CG Falcon, but he has more than a few ways to guarantee regrabs. simple combos from any low% grab include u-throw->uair->regrab->u-throw->uair*3->bair/finisher (->bair if you get weak bair first time)
 
traffic.

traffic.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 1, 2012
Messages
427
Kink-Link5 said:
Is that not what the implication of an 80:20 matchup is as well?
Click to expand...
for posterity's sake, +4/-4 literally translates in math to 80:20/20:80 for the respective parties, so do you really want to keep arguing that they are different

edit- so to appease your need for clarity, a 90:10 or 80:20 split is completely moot to differentiate, you're right. simply dramatics. but you're assuming that exaggerating the difference discounts the usefulness of the system entirely. ironically, this rebuking relies on putting as much hard stock in the MU chart as the people who ignore the discussions why.
 
Scythe

Scythe

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2004
Messages
3,875
i think people are exaggerating with 80:20 and 90:10 matchups. Those hardly exist and PM is a bit more balanced than that, just cause you get bopped on a regular basis by your friend doesn't mean the matchup is impossible.


Edit: thought on Wolf vs Falcon- I'd say it's 60:40 Wolf's favor or 55:45. Wolf doesn't have that Fox Falco bair to keep falcon out but his lasers do some justice and Wolf's shine comboes Falcon hard. Also he easily edgeguards falcon pretty easily. Just another spacie matchup for falcon : /
 
OkamiBW

OkamiBW

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
2,051
Location
20 miles south of Irvine, SoCal
No, Kink-Link's actually right on this one. Like flat out.

Pretty much anything higher than 80-20 is the same as 80-20. Take Falco vs Yoshi for example in Melee. Most people agree it's about 85-15. But seriously, if it's 90-10, does that really mean much more? Not really.

Scythe is also right. I don't see one character flat out beating another character except maybe like...TL vs Puff or something like that, which is still like probably 70-30 or so at worst for Puff. There isn't anything that's horrible for any one match up. Course people who don't go to tournaments, don't play the game at a high level, watch videos all day, etc. will say otherwise. Heck, Kink-Link is even spot on and he lives in the middle of nowhere. -_-
 
traffic.

traffic.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 1, 2012
Messages
427
I get that you are arguing accuracy's sake through reducing the difference to less choices (very strongly agree, strongly agree, somewhat agree, etc is annoying) but there's hardly a need to demand unification on the subject. I dont see anyone arguing the difference between 8/2 and 9/1, so i don't see the harm in the phrasing of it as such as long as there is a breakdown of what that pros/cons list looks like. at the end of the day whatever it gets called, it doesn't change the actual application of the chart to the matchup. If someone is taking the time to compile this information they will have their format decided and apply the contributed information to their final decisions, as long as people are discussing the matchup and giving it a basic odds breakdown, no harm no foul.
 
Chaos_Blasta

Chaos_Blasta

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
288
Location
Mexico
i agree that ranking MUs with numbers is inconclusive and doesn't really bring out anything meaningful.

Skill cannot be gauged, either, so you can't really say "If 2 people around the same skill level.." because there are many factors that can and will change the outcome of a match drastically, regardless of the proposed MU evaluation.
 
No U

No U

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 2, 2008
Messages
247
Location
Boise ID
Stunts said:
Interesting. The funny thing is I say it's 60-40 :Bowser. I usually end up crawling through Lucas' PKF. I also use his super armor to his advantage; SideB can really be used to Booze's advantage, along with his arials, all his arials have a usage. Since Lucas' big head pokes through his recoveries, even tethers, I think Dtilt is one of Bowser's safest moves on him. With addition with Boozer's BnB, I find it hard to except the match is in Lucas' favor.
Click to expand...
Even if you crouch armor through pkf it still has enough stun on booser to get a combo started. And an ideal Lucas will not be poking his head up above the edge with his tether because he can snake close to the edge and release snake to snap to the edge without having to do the regular tether rise up that makes him so vulnerable.
 
bubbaking

bubbaking

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
6,895
Location
Baldwin, NY, USA or Alexandria, VA, USA (Pick one)
First off, there is no MU in P:M that is worse than 70:30. Even in Melee, you were hard-put to find MUs that were worse off than that between anything that wasn't a Low Tier and anything that wasn't Top Tier. Fox:pichu was like, 80:20/90:10 because Pichu can't tech anywhere and Fox can continually dthrow him, but that's it.

However, this game isn't balanced enough that everything will fit under a 5-tiered system, so no, Kink's not "flat out" right, but as I already said, I have nothing against an integer MU value system, even though I personally prefer ratios. The 7 necessary tiers are "very strong advantage/almost unloseable", "solid advantage", "slight constant advantage", "even" (can go either way depending on stages, but overall, it's even), and the opposite side of all the 'advantage' tiers. In other words, an integer MU value system would need AT LEAST 7 tiers. Any less and you're greatly oversimplifying certain MUs in relation to others, especially when it comes to comparing their difficulties.
 
Marrowak

Marrowak

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Messages
7
I put ivysaur 70:30 vs cp
her long range and projectiles shutdown his approach.
ez edgeguarding with her backair.
 
Vashimus

Vashimus

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
3,308
Location
Newark, NJ
bubbaking said:
Who's "cp"? Captain? :confused:

If it's Falcon, I'm inclined to disagree because Melee Samus has the same strengths in her own MU vs Falcon and that MU is arguably 60:40 - 70:30 in Falcon's favor.
Click to expand...
I don't think it's 70:30 for Ivy or Falcon. I didn't even think that for Samus, I thought it was straight 60:40 Falcon to me.

:phone:
 
Scythe

Scythe

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2004
Messages
3,875
Having played against Metroid's Charizard many times now I'd say that it's like 55:45 charizard over wolf for the simple fact that against spacies charizard has the absolute freest tech chases with down smash. It covers every option almost without fail, only way to avoid it is with regular getup invincibility which is a total guessing game. Also nair edgeguards every char in the cast with no risk lol. Charizard is pretty underrated and Metroid is obviously a great player. I haven't tried Charizard with the other spacies but I'm guessing Falco wins because he's the best and Fox either wins or is even.
 
bubbaking

bubbaking

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
6,895
Location
Baldwin, NY, USA or Alexandria, VA, USA (Pick one)
Uhhh, I play Zard, so I'm just gonna answer these surveys from the perspectives of the chars I often play against with him.

Scythe said:
I haven't tried Charizard with the other spacies but I'm guessing Fox wins because he's the best and Falco either wins or is even.
Click to expand...
Fixed. :awesome:

Vashimus said:
I don't think it's 70:30 for Ivy or Falcon. I didn't even think that for Samus, I thought it was straight 60:40 Falcon to me.
Click to expand...
Most (all real) Sami agree that Falcon is one of Samus' hardest MUs. In order of difficulty from hardest to easiest, her 5 worst are probably:
  1. Sheik
  2. Falcon
  3. Marth
  4. Jiggs
  5. Falco or Fox
 
bubbaking

bubbaking

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
6,895
Location
Baldwin, NY, USA or Alexandria, VA, USA (Pick one)
Not ZSS. She kinda sucks at killing and Zard's really good at livin'. Meanwhile, ZSS' recovery is just the kind of recovery that Zard doesn't have too much trouble gimping, not to mention that ZSS is pretty easy to combo. If ZSS wasn't so good onstage, I'd put this MU in Zard's favor. IMO, the MU is even.
 
Marrowak

Marrowak

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Messages
7
bubbaking said:
Who's "cp"? Captain? :confused:

If it's Falcon, I'm inclined to disagree because Melee Samus has the same strengths in her own MU vs Falcon and that MU is arguably 60:40 - 70:30 in Falcon's favor.
Click to expand...
similar strengths yes but i think theres some key differences that make the mu more favorable for ivy. Atleast in my experience with a friend who played cf against me.

Ivys backair is amazing. two hits and it comes out fast in an ENORMOUS arcing motion.
whenever my friend tried approach with any aerials id throw out the bair to stop him everytime from a great distance.

Samus also has a long range but i think her's pales in comparison to ivy's greater-than-marth range. you cant start throwing out aerials at cf with samus or youll get some ****ty trades. Ivy's bair seems to outprioritize cf's aerials or just come out considerably faster. (I assume if one clinks with the first whip that comes out they second will hit anyways.). She just seems to dominate the air game against CF unlike samus

Ivy has superior options when positioned below falcon with her seed bombs and whip. whip provides a nice ko option and seeds are a safe and effective way to attack from below with less risk of getting owned by some of falcons drop down aerials. seeds also provide some relief from his grab game. start shooting seeds when he fishes for a grab. a successful grab will get punished by the falling seeds.

Ivy has some nice mixups from above as well. If youre popped up really high, rain down some seeds. dair is awesome and can change up your air speed and distance with that pop up effect. i also like using the meteor smash on ivy's uair (her belly when she gets pushed down) to surprise them with the fast fall it grants and l-cancel it into some uptilts. these options seem much better than her slow meteor smash dair and drop down nairs or something.

I also love ivy's downtilt range and the fact that its weird hitboxes can catch a lot of characters in the air even though it looks like they were clearly above it.

upsmash is great too. no moving appendages to trade with and decent aoe.

Ivy is also smaller and harder to hit.

I prefer razorblade's (awesome multiple hits), seeds (solid knockback, stun, safe juggling), and solarbeam over samus's missles, charge shot, and morph bombs.)

I'm fairly noobish though. I'd love to have someone disassemble my argument.
 
bubbaking

bubbaking

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
6,895
Location
Baldwin, NY, USA or Alexandria, VA, USA (Pick one)
Not necessarily. I can't even begin to fathom how this MU works, but I would guess that Game's great mobility and his bacon would actually cause great problems for lumbering DDD. Consider a game where neither of them approaches. Tilts outspace shieldgrabs. DDD's easy to combo when you can pull one off. Also, Game can avoid DDD's trademark gimps by going really low, but Game's long lasting fair, nair, dair, fsmash, dsmash, and most of all, ftilt and dtilt can probably edgeguard DDD just as well as anyone else could. This is just straight-up theorycrafting, but I think DDD's one of the few chars I would say would have trouble against Game, if you play Game's cards right...

(Ir)regardless (:awesome:), I won't be voting on that specific MU because it isn't one that I play at all.

Marrowak said:
Samus also has a long range but i think her's pales in comparison to ivy's greater-than-marth range. you cant start throwing out aerials at cf with samus or youll get some ****ty trades. Ivy's bair seems to outprioritize cf's aerials or just come out considerably faster. (I assume if one clinks with the first whip that comes out they second will hit anyways.). She just seems to dominate the air game against CF unlike samus
Click to expand...
You're comparing the two incorrectly, tbh. Against Falcon (and in most of her MUs), Samus should ALWAYS stay grounded as much as possible. Her tilts are also fast, ranged, and can stuff a lot of Falcon's crap. Even though Falcon has a strong advantage in this MU (mostly because he wins the air game and has good ways to force Samus into it), Samus solidly wins the ground game. I can see what you're saying about Ivy, and it's legitimate, but you shouldn't be comparing her aerials to Samus' because Samus shouldn't be using them much against Falcon.

Ivy is also smaller and harder to hit.
Click to expand...
Ivy is also MUCH lighter and has a far worse recovery than what Samus has.

I prefer razorblade's (awesome multiple hits), seeds (solid knockback, stun, safe juggling), and solarbeam over samus's missles, charge shot, and morph bombs.)

I'm fairly noobish though. I'd love to have someone disassemble my argument.
Click to expand...
I can't really say you're wrong because Samus and Ivy are simply different characters. However, I think you underestimate the power of missile cancels and a chargeable kill move that doesn't take ages to charge, is more easily landed in many situations, and can still be used as another kind of tool when uncharged. I could see Ivy being better against Falcon than Samus in long-range combat, but in CQC, I'd say that Samus is solidly better.
 
Scythe

Scythe

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2004
Messages
3,875
I played fly's DDD at TBH2 and he gimped me with back throw waddle dee many times lol, it was pretty dumb. I have a hard time concluding that DDD wins the matchup though but i'll refrain from putting up a number this time since one match is my only experience.
 
OkamiBW

OkamiBW

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
2,051
Location
20 miles south of Irvine, SoCal
I've played Fly a bit in friendlies at his place, though that was back in 2.1. It felt like my one easy match-up against him, so I'd say back then it was something like 65-35 perhaps. The characters haven't had overhauls in their design, so I'm going to go with the following:

Sheik v D3 60-40 Sheik
TL v D3 60-40 Toon Link

TL kind of plays against him how he plays against Wario, Imo.
 
DvarakElt

DvarakElt

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 20, 2012
Messages
84
Location
North York
Fixed, sorry, I start by duplicating the Surveys so I guess I missed one instance when I was changing it. I'll try To be more careful now on.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom