Matchup Export: Fox

[A1lion835]

Overview:
Fox McCloud is in the Brawl! With his laser, scouter, and high power level, the matchup isn’t a ridiculous 70-30, as many Kirbies once believed.

Kirby’s Advantages

+ Stronger offstage game gives potential for gimps
+ Low % strings
+ Strong Fsmash for horizontal KO’s
+ Many attacks (such as Dthrow and DA) leave Fox in an awkward position.

Fox’s Advantages

+ Usmash is great for vertical KO’s
+ Lasers can rack on damage quickly
+ Good combos at most percents
+ Very fast overall

Watch out for:
Utilt – Utilt can combo into itself repeatedly at the beginning of a stock and can easily rack on 25% .
Kill Set-Ups – Fox has a godly Usmash and an great DACUS. At high %’s, Fox may go for a DACUS kill. Dair will also lead to a Usmash/Dsmash if Kirby doesn’t SDI down and buffer shield.
Lasers – These can be used to tack on a significant amount of damage throughout the stock. A predictably recovering Kirby should expect to eat a lot of these.

How to win:
Rack on Damage Early in Stocks – This should be a given in any matchup, but it's especially important in this one. Kirby should use almost solely his grabs, tilts and aerials to rack on damage at low %'s. This encourages Fox to go aggro, where Kirby can punish even more.
Don't Get Hit...By Lasers – Lasers are one of Fox's most useful tools. A few of them could be the difference between recovery and death.
Get Fox Offstage – Fox's recovery might be decent, but he feels awkward offstage against a Kirby. A down-angled fsmash at 80% could lead to a significant amount of damage or a gimp.

Spit out or Swallow?
Lasers are good for putting on an extra 2% here or there, but they must be carefully snuck in around reflectors. If Kirby lands an inhale close to the edge of the stage, he should Kirbycide because of his guaranteed footstool out of an inhale break. Otherwise, take the lasers. Inhale shouldn’t be tried for that often in this match, because it’s highly punishable.

What NOT to do:
Expect Lots of Gimps – Fox’s recovery might not look to good, but with shinestalling, rising fair, Fox Illusion, and Firefox, Fox is trickier offstage than he looks.
Spotdodge and Roll – An occasional one is okay, but Fox's Usmash hitbox outlasts the invincibility.

Stages (in order of priority):
Frigate Orpheon – The small stage gives Fox less room to camp, the ceiling is moderately high, the sides are close, and the absence of a right ledge can make recovering difficult for Fox.
Lylat Cruise – The shifting stage makes recovery awkward for Fox and can also mess up his camping.
Pokemon Stadium 1 – Always a good Kirby CP, but in this matchup, there are better.
Brinstar – The stage is good for Kirby, but the low ceiling will give Fox ridiculous KO's, and any potential gimps could be stopped in their tracks by the lava.
Halberd – The low ceiling and wide sides do nothing for Kirby, and everything for Fox. Ban it.

Neutrals: Ranked and Explained

Key: Good, Bad.

Lylat Cruise – The shifting stage makes recovery awkward for Fox and can also mess up his camping.
Pokemon Stadium 1 – The strange ledges and changing stage both work against Fox. The only thing to worry about is the shine infinite between the rocks.
Yoshi's Island – This is mostly personal preference. Go by how you like the stage and how you know your opponent does.
Smashville – The stage is relatively small, but the platform can help Fox recover.
Battlefield – The low ceiling only benefits Fox.​

Synopsis:
Fox is by no means a sure win, but the matchup is a slight advantage for Kirby. If he doesn't eat lots of damage from lasers and can rack on a good amount of damage at low %'s, the game shouldn't be too hard to take.


Major Contributors: Asdioh, t1mmy

 

[BBQTV]

yay for no gay chaingrab!

fox's up tilt is gay though

IDK Asdioh knows more i bet

 

[Asdioh]

I main both these characters but I don't have a ton of experience on both sides of the matchup.


I will say, though, that Kirbys used to consider it heavily in their favor because:
1. duck under lasers
2. low % combos
3. pretty good gimping skills


but realistically, it's not an easy matchup. In fact, I would say it's even, since I can't really figure out who has the advantage. Both characters have the potential to kill each other at extremely low % with their strong kill moves (fsmash for kirby, upsmash for Fox) but I'd say Fox's is easier to land. Both characters can rack up damage very very quickly, given good reading skills. Fox has a few true combos at any %, plus lasers, and Kirby has dthrow/uptilt combos at low %, with semi-decent followups. Kirby has the advantage offstage. If Fox is forced to use Up B, hit him with Dair if you have time, or Bair otherwise. I'm pretty sure Bair beats Side B, I've found over my time playing Fox that lots and lots of moves beat his Side B if you see it coming :/

Fox really won't be getting gimped that often. Less than Falco for sure, because Fox has shinestalling, rising Fair, and a Firefox with longer range.

Kirby can take his power, and it has its uses (SHQL!) but overall don't bother risking the Inhale because it will be hard to land if the Fox is moving around a lot and camping. Fox can use Reflector when Kirby Swallows because of the lack of hitstun, and it will hit Kirby. Overall I guess Inhale might be better for potential gimps, but whatever.


50-50 imo haters gonna hate

 

[A1lion835]

Kirby also has a guaranteed footstool out of an inhale break. Wait, let me rephrase that. Kirby has a guaranteed stock out of an inhale break. However, I like taking the lazers and shooting occasionally when I can squeeze one or two in, like when I'm recovering horizontally. Also, the chance of landing another inhale against a good Fox (or a good anyone) are kinda low, so I would take the lazers.

As for neutrals, YI is my favorite because of the small stage, short sides, reasonable ceiling and the walls. SV isn't great, it's too big. I won't give my opinion on BF, since I hate the stage so much. PS1 is always a good Kirby stage, and I don't think Lylat would be too bad.

Brinstar is definitely a bad CP (stupid ceiling), JJ is good, RC might be (trade off camping for ridiculous usmash). Idunno about CPs for Fox, probably just good Fox stages.

I agree with Asdioh on the 50-50 part though. Partly because he's Asdioh.

 

[fromundaman]

Kirby also has a guaranteed footstool out of an inhale break. Wait, let me rephrase that. Kirby has a guaranteed stock out of an inhale break. However, I like taking the lazers and shooting occasionally when I can squeeze one or two in, like when I'm recovering horizontally. Also, the chance of landing another inhale against a good Fox (or a good anyone) are kinda low, so I would take the lazers.

So what you're saying is if you manage to get just one inhale, you'd rather have a 2% projectile that will probably get knocked out in seconds by his lasers/combos than a guaranteed stock? I beg to differ...

Also IDK, I haven't had much trouble landing inhales or starting combos on Foxes, but I will admit I don't have much experience in this MU.

Ftilt and Dsmash also beat Fox's SideB
Dtilt is amazing in this MU from what I've seen. Also, Utilt > Fox's aerials IF you time it right. That implies reading the shine stalls though.

Vs Fox, regardless of character, learn to SDI. At kill %s, if hit by Dair, SDI down and buffer a shield to PS the Usmash/Dsmash.

Much like with Sonic, at kill %s, don't spotdodge. Rolling is a bad idea at those %s too, since Fox's Hyphen smash goes on forever.

Ban Halberd and/or Brinstar. Low ceiling + Usmash = bad for us.

 

[A1lion835]

So what you're saying is if you manage to get just one inhale, you'd rather have a 2% projectile that will probably get knocked out in seconds by his lasers/combos than a guaranteed stock? I beg to differ...

Also IDK, I haven't had much trouble landing inhales or starting combos on Foxes, but I will admit I don't have much experience in this MU.

Sorry, this is an example of my epic vagueness. If I'm close to the ledge, then sure, I'll take the stock, but if I'm in the middle of the stage, no point trying to make it all the way over there.

While I also don't have much experience with the MU, it seems like too much to hope for that I would have an opportunity to Kirbycide after my first inhale and before the power gets knocked out.

I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[Asdioh]

Kirby's dtaunt can always be used to get rid of powers, since it's so quick :3 I guess.


Oh yeah, stages. If lylat's a neutral, I always strike it first when I'm using Fox, because I will most likely suicide on it, and also it can screw up lasers/laser timing.
I also don't like PS1 while using Fox, despite loving it with Kirby, because it's too easy to kill myself on those ledges too. Fox has an "infinite" between the rocks with his Shine, but Kirby's jablock there does damage more quickly.

BF is an amazing Fox stage, FD is always good, SV is sometimes better than FD because the platform can help you recover, though you have less room to camp. I usually strike YI while using Fox, but that's just a preference.

Brinstar is good for both characters. Rainbow Cruise is overrated against bad recoveries imo, because you can just avoid your opponent to the best of your ability during the vertical part, and then camp the hell out of them on the horizontal part. Probably Kirby's advantage on RC, though the stage is still overestimated. Jungle Japes is probably good for Kirby, because of the high ceiling, but Fox can abuse camping on that stage just as well as Falco can, possibly better.

Frigate... meh, another overrated stage, that depends on your opponent being incompetent more often than the character's recovery being bad. Olimar, for example, is better on that stage than he appears to be, and the same holds true for Fox, though it still is probably a good CP against him because it's small, giving him less room to camp. So yeah, I'd suggest CPing Frigate, though the Fox might ban it.

As Fox, I guess I could take Kirby to Halberd or Brinstar, though I usually just pick neutrals because those are my most comfortable stages with Fox.

 

[Dabuz]

kirby should go to castle siege, 2/3 parts stop fox's lasers, those 2/3 also don't allow good side-b use, the ceiling is pretty high, the last part has a tilting stage, no good for fox

also, one thing to note, at low%, i find kirby's dash attack a good way to punish badly spaced aerials and put fox in a relatively bad position (he will be like 75 degrees in the air above us, and at low%, he will be so close to us with can follow up with bair stuffs)

 

[Sage JoWii]

I just wanted it to be noted that dabuz came in, pointed as Asdioh, called him a bad CPer, and said Castle Siege.

I'd take him to CS, Lylat, or PS1

 

[fromundaman]

I personally dislike CS, and think there may be better CPs, but he's got some good points: It's not a good Fox Stage.

That being said, Dabuz, while Kirby's DA isn't bad, be careful with it, as you can SDI through Kirby and punish, and at kill %s that means free Usmash for Fox.

 

[Lord Viper]

★ Castle Siege is one of those stages that gives nobody an advantage or disadvantage, lol. I haven't played enough Fox's lately to say the match up, (my thought being advantage). Stage wise, don't take him to any flat stages... well don't take any character that moves very fast to a flat stage, lol. Stages with high ceilings will do better vs Fox, also stages with little ledges. I need to play against Fox to say what stages to take/not take him. ♛

 

[Sage JoWii]

while Kirby's DA isn't bad, be careful with it, as you can SDI through Kirby and punish, and at kill %s that means free Usmash for Fox.

This! is wrong. While I'm not disputing it's possibility, it's hardly free. >_> How many ppl do you know can SDI, and how many do it consistently? How many Foxes know the Kirby MU well enough to know they can do this and how many will attempt it?

Don't be afraid to DA is what I'm trying to say.

 

[fromundaman]

I realize this, but honestly Kirby's DA is VERY easy to SDI if you know you can do it. I'm not saying to be afraid of it, but don't overuse it. Basically, if you catch them offguard then you're good. Otherwise, you better pray they don't know how to SDI it.

 

[A1lion835]

JoWii's argument reminds me of something called "Hope Chess," where you hope your opponent doesn't realize that you just made threats. It might get you a quick win against someone who isn't very skilled, but it'll worsen your position if your opponent sees it. Just sayin'.

 

[Delta Z]

Ugh. I got some stuff to say, but I'll get it up tomorrow. Right when I was posting it the server died for about 30 seconds...stopping the post and deleting everything I typed. -_-

 

[Sage JoWii]

@ A1- >_> I am defensive in chess, preferring to react than act. I know what you're talking about though lol/