Match Ups | 3.5 Samus General MU Discussion

[pooch182]

Zair only works for so long until they all realize that you can just shield it. Having played with Lazarond, Italian N1nja, Norm, and all the other damn Link players in Chicago every now and again, I can safely say that the whole zair thing doesn't consistently work. Also, Gimpy does not look like a very good Link at all, to be honest.

 

[Chevy]

Yeah, like I said, it's the only time I've even seen him play Link. But I figured a video is a video right?

 

[Litt]

Just shield all projectiles, and catch the bombs, your zair out rangers, and on the ground you are faster in neutral with jabs and tilts, get link off stage and just run off nair

 

[Litt]

Zair only works for so long until they all realize that you can just shield it. Having played with Lazarond, Italian N1nja, Norm, and all the other damn Link players in Chicago every now and again, I can safely say that the whole zair thing doesn't consistently work. Also, Gimpy does not look like a very good Link at all, to be honest.

Pooch, you are the newest "semi-competent" player that can kind of talk about samus, but don't give chevy attitude or disrespect gimpy. A character doesnt have to look flashy for the player behind them to 4 stock someone else. Gimpy is an amazing player and if you sleep on any of his characters you would get **** on. I don't know the chicago scene much, or PM in general but I do recall them getting **** on by MDVA's squad, and the links of the Chicago team kinda got pooped on. They may have gotten drastically better, but I wouldnt use the bar of Chicago links and how they perform against yourself to the rest of the smash community bud.

 

[pooch182]

I didn't mean to come off with an attitude to Chevy. I know where I stand in skill level and experience, and I know how long Gimpy has been playing and all that, as well. No disrespect to him as a player, but his Link just wasn't there.

At the same time, I'm speaking from personal experience after having played sets against Lazarond, Ninja, and Aerolink at LTC. I've played some great Link players, and I've commentated for plenty of them as well. People learn about zair pretty quickly if you get overzealous with it, and they find out how effective it is to just shield and then dash in for a punish.

In regard to the crew battle, our only really good player that went was Rat (and 5-1 was getting better). Shion left the scene and was never good, and Harry the Chin fell off the face of the Earth. It was, by far, our B-team at best (I'd wager to say C team). Not to mention, if you look at the bracket from that week, Laz beat Pink Fresh in Winners, and Chicago sort of dominated their entire bracket except for Chillin and Chu. Believe me when I say that, of all the people I've met in the smash scene, Lazarond has the most natural talent for the game that I've ever seen. He started in like December or November of last year, and he contends with the likes of Kels and Rat over here, and he's shown himself as a pretty big threat to other big players in other regions. Just pay attention to him at Big House.

You seem to have misinterpreted me when I said Gimpyfish's Link doesn't look good. I didn't say "that's not a very flashy Link". In fact, the only flashy Link I play with and watch is Ninja, and it bites him in the ass more than it helps him. Gimpy, quite simply, didn't choose solid options for most of that game, and it really showed. I may not be the best player, but I sure as hell can tell when someone is playing well or when they aren't.

 

[Litt]

I didn't mean to come off with an attitude to Chevy. I know where I stand in skill level and experience, and I know how long Gimpy has been playing and all that, as well. No disrespect to him as a player, but his Link just wasn't there.

At the same time, I'm speaking from personal experience after having played sets against Lazarond, Ninja, and Aerolink at LTC. I've played some great Link players, and I've commentated for plenty of them as well. People learn about zair pretty quickly if you get overzealous with it, and they find out how effective it is to just shield and then dash in for a punish.

In regard to the crew battle, our only really good player that went was Rat (and 5-1 was getting better). Shion left the scene and was never good, and Harry the Chin fell off the face of the Earth. It was, by far, our B-team at best (I'd wager to say C team). Not to mention, if you look at the bracket from that week, Laz beat Pink Fresh in Winners, and Chicago sort of dominated their entire bracket except for Chillin and Chu. Believe me when I say that, of all the people I've met in the smash scene, Lazarond has the most natural talent for the game that I've ever seen. He started in like December or November of last year, and he contends with the likes of Kels and Rat over here, and he's shown himself as a pretty big threat to other big players in other regions. Just pay attention to him at Big House.

You seem to have misinterpreted me when I said Gimpyfish's Link doesn't look good. I didn't say "that's not a very flashy Link". In fact, the only flashy Link I play with and watch is Ninja, and it bites him in the *** more than it helps him. Gimpy, quite simply, didn't choose solid options for most of that game, and it really showed. I may not be the best player, but I sure as hell can tell when someone is playing well or when they aren't.

This is a difference between not playing well and just not knowing MUs or being janked on by PM in general, also duh, zair isnt that effective in most MUs, which is why I usually opt to never use it. You want to see what real skill is, go into the melee scene. As for duration of play, ive only been at it since April 2013, now top samus in my entire region, and keep up with the best, its all about who you play with, how much you analyze and understand the game, and how good you get at understanding and applying your game against a multitude of opponents. You really wanna see or play a good link, take on Lord HDL, or IE or even Germ, they will show you what a good link really is.

 

[Chevy]

Edit: dead link, twitch ate

 

[pinkdeaf1]

This thread is dead...

Can someone tell me what to do versus some obscure matchup that rarely pops up in videos? Like... I don't know. Luigi, maybe?

 

[Litt]

This thread is dead...

Can someone tell me what to do versus some obscure matchup that rarely pops up in videos? Like... I don't know. Luigi, maybe?

urghhh that MU is beyond annoying for samus, luigi combos the **** out of her, so you need to be grounded, samus luigi mu doesnt drastically change much from melee but then again that MU isnt covered well at all on the melee boards either... because who the **** plays luigi, its going to be a war of attrition if you play it right, last luigi i played in tourney I timed out :/ sooo much fun

 

[pinkdeaf1]

urghhh that MU is beyond annoying for samus, luigi combos the **** out of her, so you need to be grounded, samus luigi mu doesnt drastically change much from melee but then again that MU isnt covered well at all on the melee boards either... because who the **** plays luigi, its going to be a war of attrition if you play it right, last luigi i played in tourney I timed out :/ sooo much fun

Thanks for the tips. The melee boards are pretty bare in regards to this matchup, but anything helps me get an idea of what to expect.

Anywho, in NorCal, I continuously lose to this DK main who is currently regarded as 6th in NorCal, but irregardless of rank, I feel as if I always get closer to winning but I can't quite clutch it out. It is as if the matchup was actually bad for samus, though I really feel like that is just me making excuses.

But onto what I need help with: DK can edgeguard Samus pretty well with his back air if I try to drift back to the stage, or nair or bair again when I tether. Should I contest the DK or avoid his attacks the best I can? Also, it feels really hard to edgeguard DK when they try to recover high. With platforms, I can't always just cover landings with charged shot. Also, when he recovers low, I can nair him, but he'll make it back anyways with that strong recovery and usually end up back onstage faster than me. But even lately, that DK just foregoes recovering low against me ever since I daired him in one set and just goes high. If he lands on stage and I try to cover the landing with a missile, the landing lag is so negligible, he can shield the missile right after. How can I prevent DK from recovering?

 

[pooch182]

I've got one decent DK player at my locals, and the only thing that lets him keep games close is his ability to powershield. Other than that, work on strong movement and try to stay on the ground as much as possible, because he can fish you under a platform with up-air and turn it into a lot.

When you're recovering, you need to respect the strength and range that DK has. Personally, I treat my recovery in this MU like I do with D3. Never double-jump, and recover from as low as possible. The lower you go, the harder the DK has to commit to going after you. I'm assuming your incredibly familiar with your tether range and screw attack range, so you should know how to deal with him dropping ledge to cover your reel.

As far as edge guarding his recovery goes, I'm a fan of homing missiles to cover the high option. At the very least, it forces him to weave and you limit his options, and at it's best, it hits him and forces him to UpB again, giving you ample time to set up for a better edge-guard. If he keeps managing to go high, try switching to ice and punishing his recoveries with an up-smash or even a fair.

 

[NeXi']

Someone's bound to say it so it might as well be me... How to only get slightly rekt by mewtwo?

 

[NeXi']

Also kirby.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

I've got one decent DK player at my locals, and the only thing that lets him keep games close is his ability to powershield. Other than that, work on strong movement and try to stay on the ground as much as possible, because he can fish you under a platform with up-air and turn it into a lot.

When you're recovering, you need to respect the strength and range that DK has. Personally, I treat my recovery in this MU like I do with D3. Never double-jump, and recover from as low as possible. The lower you go, the harder the DK has to commit to going after you. I'm assuming your incredibly familiar with your tether range and screw attack range, so you should know how to deal with him dropping ledge to cover your reel.

As far as edge guarding his recovery goes, I'm a fan of homing missiles to cover the high option. At the very least, it forces him to weave and you limit his options, and at it's best, it hits him and forces him to UpB again, giving you ample time to set up for a better edge-guard. If he keeps managing to go high, try switching to ice and punishing his recoveries with an up-smash or even a fair.

I'm not too bad in neutral. I just miss out on edgeguarding, and I get edgeguarded by deep DK edgeguards. And he goes DEEEEEP.

Thanks for the ideas. I suppose as I fall from up top, I should just be hugging the side blast zones, and then make my attempt to get back once the air space is clear.

While I do know about dropping tether for up-B, I haven't been practicing that tech in actual matches so now is as good a time to start as any, I suppose.

If I try to shoot homing missiles high, he just drops for the ledge. But maybe if I force him up there with a power missile, he goes high and over, I use a homing missile to chase, he lands and shields it and then I GRAB him! Ok. Epiphany. I... want to test this. But so far, it sounds so good in my head.

I will have to work on chasing the dk's recovery if I want to ice up-smash and I don't think that is realistically possible for me. If I don't hit him before he lands, he can shield and then punish. If I miss, he gets a safe landing and then a free grab. This is tough.

 

[pooch182]

If he's consistently shielding right as he lands, then you should be able to get some free grabs out of it, until he realizes what he's doing. Honestly, the aerial mobility of DK while he's Up-Bing is pretty good, but it's really not the toughest thing in the world to chase and capitalize on, especially once he's committed to recovering on stage.

As for practicing tether cancel into Screw Attack, get a good feel for sweet-spotting the ledge out of it. We don't get a second chance to tether in the next update, so it'll be very important for you to space well and get it right the first time.


Talking about Mewtwo is no fun. The thing to keep in mind is that he never really loses the neutral game. As it stands right now, he can always teleport into an attack, which means you can very well be dealing with a constantly aggressive Mewtwo. If you are dealing with a player who loves to constantly teleport, the first thing to do is study the distance of TP. It boils down to just being better and more clever with your spacing, and being able to stuff his approach with a hitbox that stays out for a while (usually nair, but I've sniped their TP with ice up-smash before).

It's far more easy to deal with Mewtwo when you're using Ice beam, just because he's basically Samus in regard to his gravity and weight. Get very good at powershielding (not hard at all), and you begin to eliminate his ability to hit-confirm off of shadow ball. I tend to never go for grabs, just because if you whiff, he can grab you, and his grabs hurt us more than ours hurt him. A lot of my neutral game has turned into MCing from mid-range to even short range, followed up immediately with a Zair, which will cover the option if he powershields or side-Bs my missile. If he's in shield from the missed PS, or just to avoid the Zair, a lot of times I can get away with a dash grab Dthrow to upsmash.

When it comes to his recovery, I tend to respect it a lot, and just establish positional control. Missile spam works fine just to fill the gaps (and the time), and can sometimes force him to choose an option that you can easily cover.


Kirby is just an annoying ****ing prick. I've got this really campy Kirby at my locals that can be really frustrating to play with. Basically, all he does is crouch under my stuff, and then punishes hard as hell, because game design. Luckily, ice mode can kind of **** him up. My game plan went from DAFTing him to just going for really late fairs our of my SH. Swat the little bugger away and charge up my beam of doom. I started treating it more and more like playing against Puff in Melee. Lots of respect for the characters spacing and moves. Just hit him once or twice, as hard as you can, and knock him away to charge shot. Take pot shots as much as you want, he can't do much about it, and he can't really get to you in time to punish your charge time when he's at mid-percents.

Of course, once I started doing better in the neutral against this Kirby main, he started playing super cheesy and tried circle camping me on the platforms. Patience is a virtue, my friend. Homing missiles started becoming a smart option, distracting him enough to go to top platform, where I'd be already heading to throw an Up-air to cover, or he'd land on an edge of a platform where I could easily punish with ice up-smash.

 

[Frost | Odds]

ESAM seems to think Link vs Samus favors Samus, though you apparently have to use Ice. I don't know why.

 

[Chevy]

Against Mewtwo pretty much anything you can do is punishable immediately. You can missile from long range, but there's no reason he won't powershield or reflect. Once you're close enough to zair he can just teleport behind you on reaction or out of shield. You kinda just have to sit away, poke when when he makes a mistake, and wait to punish teleport when he goes in. Up-b OoS is good, just don't be caught by one of n-air's late hits.

 

[Litt]

Thanks for the tips. The melee boards are pretty bare in regards to this matchup, but anything helps me get an idea of what to expect.

Anywho, in NorCal, I continuously lose to this DK main who is currently regarded as 6th in NorCal, but irregardless of rank, I feel as if I always get closer to winning but I can't quite clutch it out. It is as if the matchup was actually bad for samus, though I really feel like that is just me making excuses.

But onto what I need help with: DK can edgeguard Samus pretty well with his back air if I try to drift back to the stage, or nair or bair again when I tether. Should I contest the DK or avoid his attacks the best I can? Also, it feels really hard to edgeguard DK when they try to recover high. With platforms, I can't always just cover landings with charged shot. Also, when he recovers low, I can nair him, but he'll make it back anyways with that strong recovery and usually end up back onstage faster than me. But even lately, that DK just foregoes recovering low against me ever since I daired him in one set and just goes high. If he lands on stage and I try to cover the landing with a missile, the landing lag is so negligible, he can shield the missile right after. How can I prevent DK from recovering?

Lol I was playing this DK on netplay the other day that just had the nicest things to say about me xD, talking so much **** how ESAM couldnt even take games off his DK, and just because I beat him over net play should I think I am anywhere near as good as him or even ESAM xD People need to chill the hell out

 

[Chevy]

Let's talk about Ike.
Conceptually, I don't think this should be hard, but in practice Ike seems to do pretty well against Samus. His massive range and ability to combo us hurt a lot. How do we beat him? This is the best video I've got for reference right now: http://www.twitch.tv/62bitgaming/b/586829668?t=187m30s

 

[pooch182]

The most important thing to remember about Ike is that he's basically Melee Ganon mixed with a bit of Marth. On flat ground, Ike can be very intimidating, but when a skillful player can waveland on platforms efficiently, Ike becomes so much scarier with platforms. Typically, I'll ban Green Hill and WarioWare, because Ike loves small stages and the walls help him go super deep to cover low recoveries safely.

If you can get a QD heavy Ike to let you go to FD, you've got access to a tool that isn't as useful in any other MU. Bombs are incredible for interrupting a head-on approach from Ike, letting you capitalize with a grab, fsmash, or dsmash. Furthermore, bombs force Ike to jump out of QD to avoid. A lot of times, the Ike will be very aggro, and they'll just jump over and nair or RAR bair at you. Depending on the scenario, you can beat him out with an upsmash, or just go into morphball, move under him, and establish stage control.

Missiles aren't your friend while Ike is on stage. His nair is deceptively fast, and QD allows him to close space fast enough to have positional advantage over you while you MC on any small or medium sized stage. Zair is also a heavy commitment with low-reward, so it's ill advised to use it in excess. If you can manage to distance yourself far enough, start a charge beam. Ike doesn't deal with charge beam too easily, since he can be a fairly linear offender, and he can't beat it with disjoints.

As far as beam type goes, I tend to prefer fire, just because it's easier to rack up damage, and stray hits from ice mode usually aren't enough to close out a stock. Ice takes away a useful fsmash, which is one of the few moves that sends out vertically enough to kill (besides ice fair) and you can't d-tilt to bair with ice mode.

There are two primary types of Ike players when it comes to QD style. The first, is the attack oriented player. This player is, in my experience, more scrubby and easy to deal with. Baiting out dumb attacks is simple enough, and you can CC dsmash or dtilt a lot of his stuff. The other, is a grab oriented player. This player is harder to deal with, because you need to drop bombs more frequently, and generally commit to more risky things to avoid the grab. Once you are grabbed, there isn't really too much you can do to avoid the impending back air, so just get ready to DI it.

That's all I can come up with off the top of my head for now. I'll come back to this after my next practice session with Moy.

 

[Litt]

Let's talk about Ike.
Conceptually, I don't think this should be hard, but in practice Ike seems to do pretty well against Samus. His massive range and ability to combo us hurt a lot. How do we beat him? This is the best video I've got for reference right now: http://www.twitch.tv/62bitgaming/b/586829668?t=187m30s

Chevy, this match just highlights where you lack in neutral game along with how poorly does against characters that have kills off throws, like shiek in melee :/ Ike wasn't even edge guarding you, and he does have a good edgeguard game against samus. I think with the 3.5 update it will give samus enough control to be able to better handle characters like Ike.

 

[pooch182]

So, is this thread dead, or should I just change the title to reflect that we are, from this point forward, discussing match ups in 3.5? Because there's still a lot of general information that can be applied in this thread, but I'd also be willing to write up a separate thread for 3.5.

 

[Litt]

So, is this thread dead, or should I just change the title to reflect that we are, from this point forward, discussing match ups in 3.5? Because there's still a lot of general information that can be applied in this thread, but I'd also be willing to write up a separate thread for 3.5.

Honestly... MUs didnt change drastically except a few key points, like how the CC game and Up OoS become viable against sonic now but they weren't that reliable in 3.02, stuff like that

 

[SkyRW]

i need help understanding exactly how Samus vs Mewtwo works. It feels like i don't have a lot of options against mewtwo as Samus. I talked to Chevy briefly about it, and i agree it's generally better than it was in 3.02..

However, I have trouble dealing with a friend of mine who plays a relatively defensive mewtwo that focuses on spacing and punishing.


I know being above mewtwo is bad, and generally being in the air with mewtwo is bad, so I try to hang back, space, missile, and tilt wavedashing back to try to keep him from grabbing me. Grab range is tough to deal with in my opinion, though... And Mewtwo downtilt always gets through samus' shield because it doesnt cover her friggin' legs (!!!!)
My friend is always powershielding too. Hes stupid good at it, so my missiling options are reduced.

Zair still seems like the best option for spacing mewtwo since it cancels shadow balls and stuns. I can do some stuff with the hit stun, but my options are limited. I cant just rely on zair because mewtwo can punish if it misses or isnt sweetspotted.

 

[pooch182]

Power shielding is incredibly easy, so learn how to do it consistently. Learn to use sound cues, and, if you use only one trigger to do everything (like shielding and WDing with only L, which is what I do), learn to "map" your other trigger for power shielding. If you train yourself to have a dedicated button for PSing, you'll get it more consistently, which helps immensely in the Mewtwo match up when dealing with a shadowball heavy player.

Ice mode is always gonna be your go-to, because you just outright win the neutral with any big hit against Mewtwo now. Missile cancels into dash attack or zair are a great means of pushing Mewtwo into a corner, with Zair being the option with lesser committal. If your opponent is using TP in the neutral at all, he's a bad Mewtwo, now, and you can easily learn his patterns of when he likes to TP, and where he'll decide to go in a given scenario.

He still has back air and up air to murder us in the air, so be very cognizant of these moves and space as far from his tail as you can. Once you close the gap, you basically win, though, especially if his back is towards you, because his grab box was reduced. Down smash him when he TPs at you from a low point, and jab to confirm into a dsmash or f-smash if he TPs at your head height. If you catch him trying to hide on a lower platform, it's an easy upsmash out of his TP.

Basically, Mewtwo got hurt really badly by his lack of TP options, and he can actually lose the neutral, and when he does, he loses it HARD. Win your exchanges in neutral and hold center stage as much as you can, and the match up is far easier than it was in 3.0.

 

[SkyRW]

Thanks for the advice, Pooch!

Couple things id like to add...
He doesn't TP in the neutral game. He did at first but he rarely ever does it besides recovering now. However, when he does do it, im kinda thrown off because he uses it so rarely, and it's never aggressive.

There are a few options ive tried... Honestly, a lot of it is probably his play style. hes very defensive. We've actually gone to sudden death >.> but its way too easy for him to read missile cancel to dash attack in my opinion. There are a couple things he can do, but he tends to wait and see if i follow closely behind the missile... and he'll just shield grab, get me in the air, and get me off the stage.

since he's pretty stellar at powershielding, spacing behind or shielding behind the missile cancel leads me to get punished, so it's hard to get him to over commit to just respond automatically to a fake missile cancel -> dash attack.. If i do, im rolling the dice, and im not sure i like that. It's an option though, so ill keep it in mind.

One of the best options ive found is running grab, dthrow, fair, fair / nair. It feels very risky at times. if i use it too much, it's easily punishable. spot dodge or space the grapple into grab. Once im off the stage i feel complately screwed.

I like zair out of missile cancel a lot more than missile cancel -> dash attack... though my execution could definitely use some work. That's something i can definitely work on. I try to mix things up so im not easy to read. I've gotten a lot better at mind games, waiting, and spacing.

I've counterpicked to ganon at a tournament when i faced him and i beat him pretty handily... seems his style is almost completely geared towards wrecking my samus. which is fine, i need the practice hah. I want to record some games and post 'em for some advice.

Honestly, I suck haha... I need mucho help on this and vs link too.

 

[pooch182]

You can out-patient his Mewtwo, because you've got the better options in neutral, in my opinion. If he's honestly that defensive, you need to play super slowly and don't commit to anything. Force him to approach with something. Mix up your missile game so he has to deal with homing missiles, which are far less threatening if power shielded, and much harder to time for a power shield when mixed into standard missile pressure.

Definitely record your sets as much as you can. It's the best way for us to give you solid feedback on what you're doing right and what you need to change.

As far as beating him with Ganon handily, you could just opt to develop your Ganon as an alt. Once you get past the complexity of Ganon's movement game, he's pretty easy to pick up and play, and he's even more devastating than he was in 3.0.

The Link MU hasn't changed all that much, other than it's worse for us for recovery. One good arrow off stage means death now, so you need to properly play the neutral to pull off a win. My sets with ITALIAN N1NJA are a few good resources that show the weaknesses Samus has in the MU; but I also can really go in hard against him if I get a good setup. Play it slow, use good platform movement, develop your power shielding, and throw well spaced f-tilts to feel out space in the neutral against Link. Try to bait out a Spin Attack from him, because the punish game is super real on Link if we get a grab.

 

[SkyRW]

Thanks, pooch!
Are there any guides on how to set up recording matches on the boards somewhere? I know there are replay options, but I heard they were glitchy and im not sure ive seen anything showing they fixed it in 3.5 (Correct me if im wrong)

EDIT: Searched... Replays dont work still with full codeset so that's no good. I'll try to figure something out.

 

[Litt]

Thanks, pooch!
Are there any guides on how to set up recording matches on the boards somewhere? I know there are replay options, but I heard they were glitchy and im not sure ive seen anything showing they fixed it in 3.5 (Correct me if im wrong)

EDIT: Searched... Replays dont work still with full codeset so that's no good. I'll try to figure something out.

Dude it just sounds like you are the one being too aggresssive and this problem is not with mewtwo, but the person you are playing against. He is starting to get to the first round of mind games... you are still not there yet and are too busy trying to accomplish the goal of taking his 4 stocks to realize he is not there to take yours but rather play a game with you called smash bros, learn to wait and understand your opponent before you rush in, just like tennis and chess... every game is different because of the opponent, not because of the characters or tools used to play the game in quesiton

 

[SkyRW]

Dude it just sounds like you are the one being too aggresssive and this problem is not with mewtwo, but the person you are playing against. He is starting to get to the first round of mind games... you are still not there yet and are too busy trying to accomplish the goal of taking his 4 stocks to realize he is not there to take yours but rather play a game with you called smash bros, learn to wait and understand your opponent before you rush in, just like tennis and chess... every game is different because of the opponent, not because of the characters or tools used to play the game in quesiton

Hmm... Yea, i think you're right. The more I think about it, the more I realize it's not a mewtwo thing... It's more of my friend's style, and my bad choices that I struggle with (the bigger problem is definitely still my lack of skill...) Honestly, I want to play aggressive and I know Samus is not the character to do that with. I also like tech skill a lot... and I think I may try too hard to be flashy and it leaves me totally punishable.

Im wondering if a character switch might be good for me and let me improve more. I'm not totally sure... I've just always gone with samus since i was a little kid. I realize that's a decision i have to make on my own.

 

[Litt]

Hmm... Yea, i think you're right. The more I think about it, the more I realize it's not a mewtwo thing... It's more of my friend's style, and my bad choices that I struggle with (the bigger problem is definitely still my lack of skill...) Honestly, I want to play aggressive and I know Samus is not the character to do that with. I also like tech skill a lot... and I think I may try too hard to be flashy and it leaves me totally punishable.

Im wondering if a character switch might be good for me and let me improve more. I'm not totally sure... I've just always gone with samus since i was a little kid. I realize that's a decision i have to make on my own.

Dude I have been going samus since 01 :/, I can play her however aggressive I want, but understand aggressive means moving fowards towards your opponent, and that allows nearly half of all movement options, leaving the other half as retreating and the one of choice of nothing aka no choice at all. Samus doesnt have a great MU against M2, however my advice to you, would be go ice mode, and use zero missiles against your friend, close the gap of space between your two with zair instead, and never use dash attacks, think of more creative ways to hit your opponent without the panic button of dash attack. You will find that dash attack is a great option, even to extend combos, but when your opponent is ready for it and can do something about it, they certainly will

 

[SkyRW]

Dude I have been going samus since 01 :/, I can play her however aggressive I want, but understand aggressive means moving fowards towards your opponent, and that allows nearly half of all movement options, leaving the other half as retreating and the one of choice of nothing aka no choice at all. Samus doesnt have a great MU against M2, however my advice to you, would be go ice mode, and use zero missiles against your friend, close the gap of space between your two with zair instead, and never use dash attacks, think of more creative ways to hit your opponent without the panic button of dash attack. You will find that dash attack is a great option, even to extend combos, but when your opponent is ready for it and can do something about it, they certainly will

I actually didnt even think of not using missiles lol xD ! Approaching with zair might work! Ill definitely try that out.

Instead of dash attacks, i like (or, at the very least try) to wavedash forward with ftilts or fsmash (freeze hit actually lands more often if you spot dodge it too early, which is awesome!) ... Usually that works a lot better because i can space a little easier and wavedash out of grab range if i notice him trying to shield grab me.
In theory, it works. In practice, I tend to dash attack accidentally, or like you said, as a panic button. I will most certainly work on that.

I'll figure out how to record our matches and post soon so i can get more detailed advice. I really appreciate the well thought out help, Barbie! Thanks a bunch! :D

 

[Litt]

I actually didnt even think of not using missiles lol xD ! Approaching with zair might work! Ill definitely try that out.

Instead of dash attacks, i like wavedashing forward with ftilts or fsmash (freeze hit actually lands more often if you spot dodge it too early, which is awesome!)... Usually that works a lot better because i can space a little easier and wavedash out of grab range if i notice him trying to shield grab me.
In theory, it works. In practice, I tend to dash attack accidentally, or like you said, as a panic button. I will most certainly work on that.

I'll figure out how to record our matches and post soon so i can get more detailed advice. I really appreciate the well thought out help, Barbie! Thanks a bunch! :D

No problem bud, some match ups and some players call for very different strategies, against a competent fox main, I almost never missile, because samus can and will get out camped, so I just surrender the camping game to them, and move to pressuring them with my position on the stage relative to their own camping patterns/tendencies. Best of luck with your m2 friend, however switching characters may only be a band-aid fix, and not a solution to the problem as I had suggested, play smart and think about why you do what you do

 

[Orion Prime]

I'm gonna assume this is still the general matchup discussion thread even w 3.02 in the title, and I dont think this one has changed anyway...can I get some advice on dealing w falcon? There's a bit of it scattered around the forum but not many conclusive suggestions.

Pretty much if I have to fight falcon on a level that I cant platform MC effectively on (smashville, FD, GHZ, FoD), then I get rocked. It pretty much seems like once either of us lands a solid hit, it ends up leading to a kill. Any advice on how to get my hands on falcon at times when I cant put on a ton of missile pressure? Thx

 

[Litt]

I'm gonna assume this is still the general matchup discussion thread even w 3.02 in the title, and I dont think this one has changed anyway...can I get some advice on dealing w falcon? There's a bit of it scattered around the forum but not many conclusive suggestions.

Pretty much if I have to fight falcon on a level that I cant platform MC effectively on (smashville, FD, GHZ, FoD), then I get rocked. It pretty much seems like once either of us lands a solid hit, it ends up leading to a kill. Any advice on how to get my hands on falcon at times when I cant put on a ton of missile pressure? Thx

You are asking the wrong question sir ^_^, you want to ask how to make falcon approach you when you arent giving him missile pressure

^ Edit: that is a way to play or strategy, which is not what you should be asking about here, strategies are what you should be making for yourself as a player for what works and what does not, its what makes you unique as to how you approach match ups

 

[Crome]

I know this most likely isn't the right place, but I couldn't really find a "Samus Social" topic or anything.

I'm thinking of making samus a secondary to cover my wolf. What do you samus nerds think?

 

[pooch182]

I think you should take a hard look at the match ups you are truly struggling to deal with as Wolf. Study them, and discuss them with other Wolf mains before coming to us with a thorough knowledge of why you need an alt to cover certain match ups.

Once you've got a good idea of the specific match ups you struggle with, and you understand why, and that understanding translates to inherent flaws in your character as opposed to your own choices and game play, then you can make a new thread here, stating your poor match ups, and seeking advice from us as to whether or not Samus covers those MUs properly.

 

[Litt]

I think you should take a hard look at the match ups you are truly struggling to deal with as Wolf. Study them, and discuss them with other Wolf mains before coming to us with a thorough knowledge of why you need an alt to cover certain match ups.

Once you've got a good idea of the specific match ups you struggle with, and you understand why, and that understanding translates to inherent flaws in your character as opposed to your own choices and game play, then you can make a new thread here, stating your poor match ups, and seeking advice from us as to whether or not Samus covers those MUs properly.

Kind of owned?

I know this most likely isn't the right place, but I couldn't really find a "Samus Social" topic or anything.

I'm thinking of making samus a secondary to cover my wolf. What do you samus nerds think?

samus nerds.... hmm go eat a fat muddy dildo fine sir

 

[Crome]

I think you should take a hard look at the match ups you are truly struggling to deal with as Wolf. Study them, and discuss them with other Wolf mains before coming to us with a thorough knowledge of why you need an alt to cover certain match ups.

Once you've got a good idea of the specific match ups you struggle with, and you understand why, and that understanding translates to inherent flaws in your character as opposed to your own choices and game play, then you can make a new thread here, stating your poor match ups, and seeking advice from us as to whether or not Samus covers those MUs properly.

Will do.

Kind of owned?

samus nerds.... hmm go eat a fat muddy dildo fine sir

You take the word "nerd" too seriously. Besides, you guys are lucky. I call the boys over at the wolf boards turbo nerds.

 

[ph00tbag]

Give KLit no heed, sboles, he's literally not worth the stains in his undies.

I'm curious, what match-ups does wolf struggle in that you feel Samus would do well in. I don't really know Wolf's strengths with regard to many other characters all that well.