Match Ups | 3.5 Samus General MU Discussion

[ph00tbag]

Any tips on the Falcon MU? I know wd back > ftilt is supposed to be really good, but I'd like more good options than that.
Thanks!

WD back > ftilt is actually really risky in this match-up, since Falcon's running sh knee covers so much ground, and more or less counters retreating wavedashes. It's actually more productive to really press space against Falcon and use your shield and CC more aggresively. You have to mix them up, though, since they both lose to things the other beats. Once you've got Falcon on the run, trying to get back the space you've been depriving him of, you can play a bit more of your projectile game, which would also lose to running knee if Falcon had the stage control to really use his dash dance.

 

[joie]

WD back > ftilt is actually really risky in this match-up, since Falcon's running sh knee covers so much ground, and more or less counters retreating wavedashes. It's actually more productive to really press space against Falcon and use your shield and CC more aggresively. You have to mix them up, though, since they both lose to things the other beats. Once you've got Falcon on the run, trying to get back the space you've been depriving him of, you can play a bit more of your projectile game, which would also lose to running knee if Falcon had the stage control to really use his dash dance.

Should I favor the smaller stages If I want to harass him up close? Should I bully him with ice on those stages? I favor ice when I want to play a closer game on a smaller stage. Also, thanks!

 

[Narpas_sword]

I'd stick with fire, fsmash and dtilt are going to be much more useful than ice up smash and fair.

 

[joie]

I'd stick with fire, fsmash and dtilt are going to be much more useful than ice up smash and fair.

Yeah and just fire missiles too. I took into account some of your falcon advice @ ph00tbag and I beat the falcon player at my weekly! Thanks a ton!

 

[Narpas_sword]

nice work.

I still ahve heaps of trouble beating mine =(

took one game off him at our last ranbats.
The only game he lost. in PM and Melee.

He's the only guy i lost to in both melee and PM though, so, it's something.

And i can beat his fox.

Just falcon, gah.

 

[ph00tbag]

Yeah, definintely stick with fire against Falcon. Fair and dtilt are combo machines against his weight, and that range on Fsmash is gdlk. You'll get a lot more straight punishes and combos out of fire where ice will net you trades and stray hits. You want to lock Falcon down. Trades and stray hits work better against floaties.

My first inclination is toward smaller stages, also. I would have to think a lot more on the implications of it, and maybe mess around with it in game. It would certainly give him less space to run, but then you'll also tend to die to knee earlier. FoD is a solid pick, especially if you know they don't practice on it much. I'm not 100% on the other stages.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Not sure if it's applicable to the matchups, or if it's just helped me vs the falcon I play, but run away and pivot grabbing a falcon approaching with an aerial has net me a few grabs. Then dthrow, ftilt to knock down or tech, followed with a fsmash. Or charge shot.

 

[Bearedman8]

Hello Samus mains! I'm a Fox player and am wondering what stages I should ban/counterpick to in the Fox v. Samus match-up? Assuming that the bottom row is neutral and the middle row is counterpick, and we each have 3 bans? My power shielding is pretty good and I know how to optimally punish tether recoveries. I honestly don't even know where to start. Big stages are probably more in Samus's favor, right? How are PS2, Dreamland, and FD in this match-up? TY!!

 

[Narpas_sword]

tbh im equally comfortable fighting fox on any stage.

 

[ph00tbag]

There's definitely a tradeoff on stage size. It's easier to KO Samus on small stages, but harder to run away. But on larger stages, it's the other way around. Ideally, you'll want to maximize KO potential and space. Traditionally, the Pokemon Stadiums are good Fox counterpicks, for their low ceilings, and wide stage space. Smashville may also be good, as well as Distant Planet (I think?) if it's legal.

It's harder to find bans. Just about any other stage, it's going to depend on the Samus, and what they want to achieve.

 

[Bearedman8]

Thank you both for your posts! I'll probably go see if I can find some videos of said Samus to see what their preferences are for the match-up then? It's good to hear that there's no strong counterpick stage (really for either of us) in this match-up.

 

[Smarf]

What do I do if a Ganon gets close to me? If he fairs my shield do I have time to shield grab? Which way do I di his throws?

 

[pooch182]

Just a note about power shielding: against Samus, it's almost better to just Nair through the missile and close space. Power shielding just staggers your movement and the Samus is usually far enough for the PS missile to not be a threat.

 

[pooch182]

Ganon is a tough MU, especially when he closes space. His aerials are pretty safe on shield, so don't go for grabs OoS against him.

DI his throws down and away and he'll have a harder time following up, but he can almost guarantee an up air on you out of Dthrow, so be prepared to DI for a hit as well.

Separate space and run away. You're faster than Ganon, and he can struggle with well placed projectiles.

 

[Smarf]

How do we edge guard Ike? The only think I've successfully done is a fun off nair when he tries to side b to sweet spot or get close to the ledge. When he does up b I just respect it and let him come back. I can't even wavedash back and grab ledge

 

[pinkdeaf1]

when you he is going to side b, sometimes run off missiles is enough to knock them away. With Up B, you have to respect it unless you can grab ledge at the right time. From there you have a few steps to consider to complete the edgeguard.

One, time your ledge grab well. If he tried sweetspotting and you grab ledge at the right time, he will fail and lose that stock. If, however, Ike throws his up b high, then tough luck, the edgeguard continues.

Two, If you are fast enough, as the sword is spinning above you, and ike is right under you, you can drop into a dair, or nair. Bair is not mentioned because if you had the time to set up a bair, you could have just as easily used dair and been done with it. The dair is stricter with timing but is almost always an edgeguard kill confirm. Nair is safer, but depending on if you got the stronger hit or not, Ike might have the ability to up b again.

Three, if you didn't have the time to intercept Ike and he is now above and about to come down, he can do two things. He can land onstage, or try to smack you off the ledge. If he lands on stage, you can punish him there, but you will have to be quick since his recovery on his up b land onstage is pretty quick. If, however, he tries to go for ledge, a ledge roll is enough that he will just lose that stock.

The hardest part here is just grabbing ledge at the right time. It is really hard to react to so that is not a feasible piece of advice. Rather, it is safer to just grab it when you can feel it coming. If you grab too early, at least you can roll back onstage and have stage control. If you get hit by the up b, Ike might be in the right position to retaliate and get you offstage.

I hope this helps.

 

[Smarf]

I'm assu

when you he is going to side b, sometimes run off missiles is enough to knock them away. With Up B, you have to respect it unless you can grab ledge at the right time. From there you have a few steps to consider to complete the edgeguard.

One, time your ledge grab well. If he tried sweetspotting and you grab ledge at the right time, he will fail and lose that stock. If, however, Ike throws his up b high, then tough luck, the edgeguard continues.

Two, If you are fast enough, as the sword is spinning above you, and ike is right under you, you can drop into a dair, or nair. Bair is not mentioned because if you had the time to set up a bair, you could have just as easily used dair and been done with it. The dair is stricter with timing but is almost always an edgeguard kill confirm. Nair is safer, but depending on if you got the stronger hit or not, Ike might have the ability to up b again.

Three, if you didn't have the time to intercept Ike and he is now above and about to come down, he can do two things. He can land onstage, or try to smack you off the ledge. If he lands on stage, you can punish him there, but you will have to be quick since his recovery on his up b land onstage is pretty quick. If, however, he tries to go for ledge, a ledge roll is enough that he will just lose that stock.

The hardest part here is just grabbing ledge at the right time. It is really hard to react to so that is not a feasible piece of advice. Rather, it is safer to just grab it when you can feel it coming. If you grab too early, at least you can roll back onstage and have stage control. If you get hit by the up b, Ike might be in the right position to retaliate and get you offstage.

I hope this helps.

I'm assuming there's now way to gimp with bomb

 

[pinkdeaf1]

I'm assu
I'm assuming there's now way to gimp with bomb

I think I recall the up b destroying the bomb.

 

[Orion Prime]

What do I do if a Ganon gets close to me? If he fairs my shield do I have time to shield grab? Which way do I di his throws?

I personally try to avoid grabs OoS against ganon bc his aerials are so safe, usually just get jabbed during the grab startup. Try upB or SH nair OoS instead. Like pooch said, ganon is almost guaranteed an aerial out of his down throw, so DI down/away hard. Sometimes I find a fast falling Uair ASAP after the Dthrow and DI can help sneak me under the incoming aerial (that may just be in my head though).

 

[CBO0tz]

How well are the Vs. Ivysaur and Lucas MU's? Are they in Samus' favor?

 

[Taytertot]

How well are the Vs. Ivysaur and Lucas MU's? Are they in Samus' favor?

ive heard from an ivy main that its kinda in samus' favor at least on specific stages like dreamland.

 

[bubbaking]

About Ganon, our crawl actually works wonders against him. Ganon struggles against really small/low hurtboxes. Most of his kit whiffs against them, and most of those moves can be whiff-punished on reaction. I sill need to test some specific interactions, like whether the crawl will also go under Wizard's Foot, but all-in-all, our crawl is pretty good here, and the crawl attack has low lag and gives us bursts of mobility. If we cross up his shield with the crawl attack, we're really safe since his bair OoS is too high and his stomp OoS is too slow. Personally, I think Samus' crawl is still underutilized in CQC for most MUs.

 

[Taytertot]

About Ganon, our crawl actually works wonders against him. Ganon struggles against really small/low hurtboxes. Most of his kit whiffs against them, and most of those moves can be whiff-punished on reaction. I sill need to test some specific interactions, like whether the crawl will also go under Wizard's Foot, but all-in-all, our crawl is pretty good here, and the crawl attack has low lag and gives us bursts of mobility. If we cross up his shield with the crawl attack, we're really safe since his bair OoS is too high and his stomp OoS is too slow. Personally, I think Samus' crawl is still underutilized in CQC for most MUs.

idk if itd be fast enough or if itd hit samus during crawl but ganon could do reverse upB OoS if you cross his shield up too close to him.

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, I'm skeptical that Ganon's upB would hit crawling Samus, but I can't say for certain. I also won't be able to touch PM for a few days, so If someone tests it out before I do, please share the results with us.

 

[Tarul]

Does anyone have any thoughts/tips on the Lucario matchup?

 

[Orion Prime]

...I sill need to test some specific interactions, like whether the crawl will also go under Wizard's Foot, but all-in-all, our crawl is pretty good here...

Ganon's down B hits us in morphball mode. I really wish the boost attack would clank with wiz foot...Also, properly SHFFL'd fair and bair hits us in crawl as well, so sneakiness is required.

 

[bubbaking]

Bummer... In either Melee or PM (I forget which), Kirby can easily just crouch under Ganon's Wiz Kick, so I thought maybe Samus could do the same. I already knew about the SHFFL'd aerials, but those are easy to react to. Ganon has to hit low with those moves so there's plenty of time to react to the rise and fall of the SH. Lots of times with Kirby, I'll just duck under him and utilt, bair, or shield on reaction to him jumping. In our case, we can shield, aerial, or upB on reaction to anything that's not grounded. We could probably also cross him up with boost attack if we're close to him and he's not fading away.

 

[Ivko]

Anyone have a suggestion for a secondary to cover Samus's weak matchups?

I've been wondering that too. I'm working on Falco and Sheik. I think they seem to be good complements (probably just need 1 rather than both).

 

[CBO0tz]

I've been wondering that too. I'm working on Falco and Sheik. I think they seem to be good complements (probably just need 1 rather than both).

My Main is Luigi, while Snake's my other secondary.. I'm not sure if they cover her weaknesses or not.

 

[bubbaking]

Sheik is one of the best secondaries for pretty much every character because she is one of the best characters in the game (and if you learn how to play Zelda, that is even better MU coverage). IMO, Samus' bad or really tough MUs are the Mario Bros (moreso Mario than Luigi), Falcon, Sheilda, Ganon on small stages, Tink on wide stages, Mewtwo, and Marth. Sheik covers all of those extremely well.

Btw, apparently, I'm hearing from the Ganons that his sideB has a hitbox around his legs that can grab crouching Squirtle, so we may not be able to crawl under that particular move either.

 

[joie]

Anyone have tips VS Bowser? We punish each other super hard, but once I get off stage against him, he basically has his way with me. Sometimes i can mix up my recovery well enough to get around his big ol butt, but usually I just get rocked offstage. I also have trouble approaching him on platforms. Should I just camp him instead?

 

[Boiko]

Btw, apparently, I'm hearing from the Ganons that his sideB has a hitbox around his legs that can grab crouching Squirtle, so we may not be able to crawl under that particular move either.

You are correct:
[collapse=Side Special (Flame Choke)]

Animation

State|1x|0.5x
Ground|

|

Air|

|

Grounded Overview

Name/Label|Subaction|Duration|IASA|Active Hitboxes|Active Grab Boxes|Armor|Thrown
Grounded Startup | SpecialSStart |59|56|-|16-31|-|-
Grounded Throw | SpecialS |39|-|30|-|17-30|27
Stage to Ledge | SpecialAirSStartGround |29|-|-|-|-|-

Aerial Overview

Name/Label|Subaction|Duration|IASA|Active Hitboxes|Active Grab Boxes|Thrown
Aerial Startup | SpecialAirSStart |59|-|-|16-31|-
Grabbed | SpecialAirSCatch |18|-|-|-|-
Freefall | SpecialAirSFall |20|-|-|-|-
Aerial Landing | SpecialAirS |38|35|4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 16-17|-|1

Hitbox & Throw Data
Grounded Throw

Hitbox Duration|ID|Size|Damage (Hit/Shield)|Angle|KB Units|BKB/WDSK/KBG|SDI Multiplier|Clang|Effect|Hitstun|Shieldstun|Hitlag
30|0|4|1/0.7|270°|80|80/0/0|0x|True|Darkness|32|2|0
Thrown | Damage | Angle | KB Units (0%/100%) | BKB/WDSK/KBG | Weight Dependent
27|12|40°|86.784/174.984|60/0/90|False

Aerial Landing

Hitbox Duration|ID|Size|Damage (Hit/Shield)|Angle|KB Units|BKB/WDSK/KBG|SDI Multiplier|Clang|Effect|Hitstun|Shieldstun|Hitlag
4, 6, 8, 10, 12|0|6|1/0.7|270°|60|60/0/0|0x|True|Darkness|24|2|0
16-17|1|6|7/4.9|280°|80|80/0/0|0x|True|Darkness|32|5|0
Thrown | Damage | Angle | KB Units (0%/100%) | BKB/WDSK/KBG | Weight Dependent
1|1|270°|2|2/0/0|False

[/collapse]

 

[bubbaking]

Ahhh well, that's too bad then. We can still crawl under a boatload of Ganon's stuff, though. I was playing against a decent Ganon last weekend, and I was able to crawl under him on reaction to him jumping forwards; it's surprisingly mobile, and boost attack is really good for those cross-unders.

Anyone have tips VS Bowser? We punish each other super hard, but once I get off stage against him, he basically has his way with me. Sometimes i can mix up my recovery well enough to get around his big ol butt, but usually I just get rocked offstage. I also have trouble approaching him on platforms. Should I just camp him instead?

Boozer's kind of a monster at edgeguarding everybody. Don't forget to use your air dodge as a mix-up to avoid things. If he Bowser Bombs and you can't get to the ledge fast enough, you can stall out the entire move with an air dodge and then tether after. Same goes for his dtilt and a lot of other moves he may try to knock you out of that.

If Bowser is hanging out on platforms, just double missile him. Or you can utilt under him. I'd double missile, though.

 

[Getsafe]

How do we edge guard Ike? The only think I've successfully done is a fun off nair when he tries to side b to sweet spot or get close to the ledge. When he does up b I just respect it and let him come back. I can't even wavedash back and grab ledge

Ike up b is super cheesy to edge guard with any character once you get it down

RAR wavedash into shield to the very edge of the stage (without falling off)
Tilt your shield backwards and the multi hit will pull you into an auto grab on the ledge. Now he can't grab ledge and it's likely too late to recover on stage. If he does make it on, just ledge hop/dash into whatever to punish him on the lag

 

[bubbaking]

How do you guys approach the DK MU?

 

[Orion Prime]

How do you guys approach the DK MU?

Run away and shoot it...this matchup terrifies me and I dont have legitimate answers for it. Offstage recovery can be very difficult for me.

 

[Ghetto Blush]

How do you guys approach the DK MU?

never come down with a missile unless you are trying to condition - DK can just nair through and hit you

zair is great in this mu because of the ape's size; if you condition him into nairing when you fall in anticipation of a missile you can stuff the approach with zair

camping with zair forces approaches and every move he has is very punishable on shield - you just have to watch out for random grabs and dash attacks

 

[ShadowKing]

Goes from samus to sonic

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

How do you guys feel about Samus' spread so far in the Community Chart? And how do you guys rate MUs that are empty?

 

[CBO0tz]

How do you guys feel about Samus' spread so far in the Community Chart? And how do you guys rate MUs that are empty?

Jeez, Idunno. I'd say Slight Advantage over Ness because of her Missiles, and Ness is pretty floaty, but a little predictable with his Double jump canceling.