Match-Up Week #17 : Kirby

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

I can beat anybody less skilled than me also...

 

[Denzi]

I can beat anybody less skilled than me also...

Yeah, lets go with this. Just because you lose to better players than yourself, it doesn't make the characters they used better than yours.

 

[pure_awesome]

Yeah, lets go with this. Just because you lose to better players than yourself, it doesn't make the characters they used better than yours.

No, but if you lose consistently to a lesser player on a neutral, then it likely means the character was better/favoured. I'm pretty sure that's what he's getting at. He doesn't beat Falcos that are controlled by better players, and he doesn't lose to Falcos that are controlled by worse players. Ergo, the match-up is even.
Essentially, a decent Pikachu could beat a good Fox, right?
EDIT: Actually, I think he might be implying that Kirby has the advantage, since the only Falcos that beat him are from much better players.
...or something.

It's coming from when Kirby walks up to you and grabs you, takes you 0-30 and off the stage for more fun. Kirby has a plenty good approach mixup and if you want two in particular, why don't you try short hop f-air and full hop falling B-airs?

Both of those aerials are beaten by Falco's Bair, Utilt, Usmash, and I think Nair.

Rather then, that Falco has no effective approaches that Kirby can't either poke at or just plain shield.

Saying an approach is ineffective because you can just shield it is like saying bullets aren't effective because you can jump out of the way. Sure, you might dodge the first one, but now you're on the floor and he's still got the gun. Get me?

If you smash DI out of my F-throw-U-air, I'll just run after you and do something more interesting next time. Really, smash DI isn't the end of the combo against a good Kirby, and last time I played SK92, I got in some interesting followups (consider dash attack, tipper f-smash), as well as getting a few nifty reverse grabs on some airdodge happy smash DIing friends more recently. I still got ***** though.

This is true. Kirby's grab game is still one of the more terrifying aspects of the match for Falco.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

My last post i was being sarcastic by the way cuz of what was said above that post...

 

[Denzi]

No, but if you lose consistently to a lesser player on a neutral, then it likely means the character was better. I'm pretty sure that's what he's getting at. He doesn't beat Falcos that are controlled by better players, and he doesn't lose to Falcos that are controlled by worse players. Ergo, the match-up is even.
Essentially, a decent Pikachu could beat a good Fox, right?

If you're going to use "evidence" such as this, I routinely beat my friends Falco with Kirby, even though he's about as good as I am.

Both of those aerials are beaten by Falco's Bair, Utilt, Usmash, and I think Nair.

Utilt isn't as hard to get around as you're making it seem, Usmash isn't too hard to see coming, the other two aren't unavoidable either.

This is true. Kirby's grab game is still one of the more terrifying aspects of the match for Falco.

Arguing against yourself? (contradictions)

 

[pure_awesome]

If you're going to use "evidence" such as this, I routinely beat my friends Falco with Kirby, even though he's about as good as I am.

Okay... I don't know who either of you are, so that's not really relevant. We're talking about elite players, here. At least, I am.

Utilt isn't as hard to get around as you're making it seem, Usmash isn't too hard to see coming, the other two aren't unavoidable either.

It's not about getting around it. It's about if Kirby uses Fair, I can hit him out of it with Utilt. I'm not just going to stand there Utilting.

Arguing against yourself? (contradictions)

I said that it's hard for Kirby to get the grab and we can DI/SDI out of all his combos. I still believe that.

I also said that Kirby's grab game is one of the worst things for Falco, best things for Kirby. I sitll believe that.

I see no contradiction.

50-50.



Keep in mind that I'm trying to argue for a neutral match-up here. I have to argue Falco's pros in the match-up because everyone is hanging onto Kirby.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

I noticed you live in Canada and i heard yall play "differently" there. Any good kirby players there or have you played any good ones?

 

[pure_awesome]

No. I have never played any good Kirbys. In fact, I've only ever played four or five people that would be considered good players.

I eagerly await the cavalcade of replies stating that my opinion is worthless as a result. Because of course, the only people who know anything about pro football are the players.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

to bad pro football changes every year just about >_>

same with other sports, one team can win a championship then the next year have the worse record.

that was not a good example

 

[Denzi]

Since I'm not using "evidence" such as this, I'll ignore this.

Misenterpretation then; sorry.

It's not about getting around it. It's about if Kirby uses Fair, I can hit him out of it with Utilt. I'm not just going to stand there Utilting.

But I'm prety sure whether or not you hit him depends both on which side he approaches you from and his height off the ground.

I said that it's hard for Kirby to get the grab and we can DI/SDI out of all his combos. I still believe that.

I also said that Kirby's grab game is one of the worst things for Falco, best things for Kirby. I sitll believe that.

I see no contradiction.

If we can SDI out of all of Kirby's combos, then how is his grab game one of the worst things for us?

I'd also like to bring up some other points: onstage kills and offstage game. Doesn't Kirby win both of these (overall)? Falco is bound to take damage eventually (even if he can stop all of Kirby's approaches, no one play perfectly). So when Falco is in kill range, Kirby has Fsmash, which is one of the things that for sure beats out Falco's ground attacks. Offstage, Firebird = dead Falco. Kirby also has the hammer, and Bair/Fair strings can be tough to deal with (esp. at low %s).

Edit: You've never played a good Kirby? I'm just going to point out that everything seems a lot easier until you actually have to apply it.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

ignore this post

 

[pure_awesome]

But I'm prety sure whether or not you hit him depends both on which side he approaches you from and his height off the ground.

Which side he approached you from? You mean like, from the front or back? Just turn around.
Height from the ground would be true, but the vertical range of Utilt also outranges Fair. So for Kirby to be high enough to dodge Utilt, he would also whiff his aerial.

If we can SDI out of all of Kirby's combos, then how is his grab game one of the worst things for us?

We're still in a dangerous position. We've escaped the combo, but we're still vulnerable and Kirby is still on the attack. It's not a guaranteed anything, it's just not where we want to be.

I'd also like to bring up some other points: onstage kills and offstage game. Doesn't Kirby win both of these (overall)? Falco is bound to take damage eventually (even if he can stop all of Kirby's approaches, no one play perfectly). So when Falco is in kill range, Kirby has Fsmash, which is one of the things that for sure beats out Falco's ground attacks. Offstage, Firebird = dead Falco. Kirby also has the hammer, and Bair/Fair strings can be tough to deal with (esp. at low %s).

Kirby's offstage game is good, I totally agree. But there are people who are saying ridiculous things like how if Falco goes offstage, he can kiss the stock goodbye. It's inane. Youtube is host to tons of Falco vs Metaknight matches where very good Falcos recover against very good Metaknights. I mean, if friggin' Metaknight can't edgeguard Falco consistently...
I wholeheartedly agree that Kirby can edgeguard effectively in the match. But people greatly exaggerate how effective it actually is. I honestly don't think I've seen more than a handful of matches where Falco has ever been forced to use Firebird.

Edit: You've never played a good Kirby? I'm just going to point out that everything seems a lot easier until you actually have to apply it.

I'm aware of the difference between theory and practice. I merely apply it to both sides.

to bad pro football changes every year just about >_>

same with other sports, one team can win a championship then the next year have the worse record.

that was not a good example

The players in a sport change. This is a why a team can rise and fall with a single season. It has nothing to do with the game itself.

The rule systems that govern that sport do not change, or if they do, it is very rare. Hockey may have a slightly different sized goal crease from one season to another, but it's still played with a puck, on ice, etc.

Smash players change. It's rule system does not, and if it does, it's very rare. Smash might have a different time limit, or legal techs from one season to another, but the rules of priority and it's physics do not change.

Now do you get it?

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

Once you play a good kirby u will change your mind.

hell me and you can play on wifi some time (if the connection is good) and that might give you an idea

 

[pure_awesome]

To put it simply:

Whether or not I, a non-elite level player playing with WiFi lag, can time Falco's Ftilt to properly beat out Kirby's dash attack does not change the fact that Falco's Ftilt beats out Kirby's dash attack.

Know what I mean?

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

O.o

im just saying we can play so u can see a good kirby player in action. Yes there is wifi lag but i get it also and that's why i said if the connection is good.