Match-Up Week #17 : Kirby

[§witch]

Kirby ducking does not force falco to approach; this seems to be a common misconception about ducking. Falco is lasering, kirby is doing **** all.

See how long it takes for a falco to get out of a uptilt "lock" at 0%

SDI is magical. And this would cancel out your grab combo which is much better.

Grab "combos" at low percent

Falco's Cg omg even. Except ours isn't SDI'able.

At low percent you can dthrow falco and use inhale and almost always get it, that's a easy way to copy his powers.

I wasn't aware of this, ok then.

Kirby can gimp falco easily off stage with bairs and dairs.

If you get falco offstage and having to use firebird, than yes.

 

[XxBlackxX]

Im talking about ducking the lasers. You cant be close to kirby(or anyone) and just stop lasering and then SH dair and expect to hit them unless they stand there like a fool. you asked me why kirby can't dtilt when ducking. i gave 2 options falco has. sure the sh dair might hit a shield, but then make sure you sweetspot+DI back and you won't get shieldgrabbed

Seems like you are basing the matchup of a few lil things. This matchup is like 65-35 in kirby's favor.

See how long it takes for a falco to get out of a uptilt "lock" at 0%

Grab "combos" at low percent

At low percent you can dthrow falco and use inhale and almost always get it, that's a easy way to copy his powers.

Kirby can gimp falco easily off stage with bairs and dairs.

you can SDI out of the grab combos and utilt "locks" fairly consistently.
your last 2 points i agree with. kirby can gimp falco wayyy better than falco can gimp kirby. and dthrow-> inhale almost always works. however, unlike what some of you think, once he gets the lasers =/= the end for falco. if he does, falco can do the approaching, and his ground and air game are at least even with kirby's. ftilt and reflector outrange all of kirby's ground attack except fsmash iirc. in the air, falco has his bair. anyways, outside of certain situations, inhale isn't exactly easy to do, and can be punished if missed.

after all that said, what kirby has that's advantageous
his offstage and gimping game
his better smashes
has easier time killing falco (however falco racks up damage quicker)
better recovery
harder for falco to kill (offset by the fact falco can cg->gatling combo/chainspike)
inhale
kirbycide COULD be useful
stealing laser=SHTL

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

SDI is magical. And this would cancel out your grab combo which is much better.


If you get falco offstage and having to use firebird, than yes.

Once it looks like they are about to get out bair em...still does good enough damage in total.

even if they dont use firebird, bair there side b, just gotta be quick but it's not hard

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Im talking about ducking the lasers. You cant be close to kirby(or anyone) and just stop lasering and then SH dair and expect to hit them unless they stand there like a fool.

Seems like you are basing the matchup of a few lil things. This matchup is like 65-35 in kirby's favor.

See how long it takes for a falco to get out of a uptilt "lock" at 0%

Grab "combos" at low percent

At low percent you can dthrow falco and use inhale and almost always get it, that's a easy way to copy his powers.

Kirby can gimp falco easily off stage with bairs and dairs.

Thing is, you aren't saying anything about what Falco can do in this matchup, which I'm sure is why you have it at 65:35, which it really isn't. Falco can camp, and force Kirby to approach. You said that "a good Kirby will make [Falco] approach." With what? HE HAS NO PROJECTILES! Falco has Blaster, SHL, SHDL, and grounded, whereas Kirby has what to make Falco approach. Kirby can't grab Falco to initiate his combos if he doesn't approach. You also said "Kirby can just duck and avoid [the lasers]." OK... We know he can do that, but he cannot approach while ducking now can he? Falco can keep laser'ing if he wants to, ducking in no way forces him to approach. FORCING someone to approach means that you have something that will MAKE them approach you, i.e. a projectile that can continuously inflict damage on an opponent that will make them either approach you or stay there and take damage. I'm sorry, but your points ftmp are invalid and this matchup is 60:40 Kirby AT MOST.

If you want to debate this further I'd be happy to.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

Kirby can to approach while ducking if you are SH lasering. All you have to do is duck, slide your finger to the direction falco is in and then duck again. Makes kirby move in a direction while quickly ducking. Now if you sitting there spamming laser with out even jumping that's a whole different story >_>

 

[XxBlackxX]

Kirby can to approach while ducking if you are SH lasering. All you have to do is duck, slide your finger to the direction falco is in and then duck again. Makes kirby move in a direction while quickly ducking. Now if you sitting there spamming laser with out even jumping that's a whole different story >_>

what safe options does kirby have after he is close?

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

wat safe option does falco have once kirby is close?


EDIT: this is gettin no where....

 

[XxBlackxX]

wat safe option does falco have once kirby is close?


EDIT: this is gettin no where....

his ground and air game are overall>kirby's. he can IAP away, he can sh dair, he can sh bair, he can do alot of things as long he keeps his spacing to not get shield grabbed. and to keep kirby away, his ftilt and reflector outrange everything except fsmash.

and i still want my question answered. >_>

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

I think kirby's airgame is better

and to answer your question just grab or ftilt or dtilt.

kirby can spotdodge the reflector cant he? leaving falco open?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

his ground and air game are overall>kirby's. Not really... Kirby's Bair and Fair are good, his Uair is very good and his Dair is great too. Kirby's ground game probably isn't as good as Falco's but I think Kirby's aerial game is better than Falco's once Kirby cloeses it. he can IAP away, he can sh dair, he can sh bair, he can do alot of things as long he keeps his spacing to not get shield grabbed But Kirby can deal with almost all of these things with his own aerials, and most likely will not try to deal with Falco's aerial prowess while on the ground, he'll most likely go to the air where he has the advantage imo. and to keep kirby away, his ftilt and reflector outrange everything except fsmash How do either of these deal with Kirby's aerials? (Falco's up-angled Ftilt could, but Kirby can outrange it with his Bair I think.

and i still want my question answered. >_>

My responses are bolded, and no offense but neither of you are presenting productive arguments because neither of you are thinking about the matchup from both characters' perspectives. You are only focusing on the play of your respective characters and not thinking about how the other character can effectively deal with your options.


Suspect, I think that if you spot-dodge Reflector, you don't have enough time to punish. I'm not sure but I think that Reflector comes back to Falco faster than Kirby can punish him.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

well duh i play kirby and he plays falco >_>

ALSO has anyone took into thought a stage besides FD lol any other stage where falco can't camp very well.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

well duh i play kirby and he plays falco >_>

ALSO has anyone took into thought a stage besides FD lol any other stage where falco can't camp very well.

I play Marth. What does that mean? My point is that neither of you are taking into account what the other character can do against you, which is vital when discussing a matchup. Do you understand my point now?

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

It means you don't belong here gtfo

 

[XxBlackxX]

I think kirby's airgame is better

and to answer your question just grab or ftilt or dtilt.

kirby can spotdodge the reflector cant he? leaving falco open?

actually no, as long as falco keeps his spacing, he wouldn't be shieldgrabbed, at least it won't be happening a lot.
falco's tilts and ground game>kirby's, his moves have more range. also, if he spotdodges, he wouldn't have time to punish.

also, just because someone mains someone else doesn't make he doesn't know about other characters >_>.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

actually no, as long as falco keeps his spacing, he wouldn't be shieldgrabbed, at least it won't be happening a lot.
falco's tilts and ground game>kirby's, his moves have more range. also, if he spotdodges, he wouldn't have time to punish.

also, just because someone mains someone else doesn't make he doesn't know about other characters >_>.

someone doesn't know sarcasm....

the way you describe falco's metagame you make it seem like falco is close to even with kirby.
Yea he is high tier(really only cuz of chaingrabs) but so what. Anyone should know kirby basically ***** spacies with maybe the exception of wolf.

I'll say 60-40...on FD

any other stage that disrupts falco's camping or what not, higher

 

[XxBlackxX]

someone doesn't know sarcasm....

the way you describe falco's metagame you make it seem like falco is close to even with kirby.
Yea he is high tier(really only cuz of chaingrabs) but so what.

wtf? why do you bring "falco's metagame" into this, we're discussing this particular matchup, not his metagame....
and no, he's not top tier "only cuz of chaingrabs". anyways, tiers don't matter in matchups, yoshi's not top tier yet he has a good matchup with MK, the best character in the game >_>

Anyone should know kirby basically ***** spacies with maybe the exception of wolf.

o rly? you argument is so **** biased it's not even funny...
how is it you say "anyone should know this" when half the people in this very thread has stated otherwise?

I'll say 60-40...on FD

any other stage that disrupts falco's camping or what not, higher

why 60-40 again? and btw, 60:40 =/= "**** matchup".
specify "whatnot" or leave it out....>_>

EDIT: btw, i agree that kirby has an advantage, yes, but it's not as great as people think.
i'd say....60:40 AT BEST for kirby.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

It means you don't belong here gtfo

I MAIN Marth. I use Marth, Wolf, Falco, Fox, and Kirby. Yeah, so...


Kirby doesn't **** the spacies. Kirby beats the spacies. He might **** Fox, IDK. If Falco only had CG then his matchup vs. Marth would be 90:10 then wouldn't it? It's 60:40 Marth so I think that shows that Falco has more than "Just CG."

Spoiler

Some haters these days... You out-debate someone and they start dodging your points and bringing out irrelevant "facts."

If either of you want to have an actual debate with me on this matchup, I'd be all for it.

 

[XxBlackxX]

I MAIN Marth. I use Marth, Wolf, Falco, Fox, and Kirby. Yeah, so...


Kirby doesn't **** the spacies. Kirby beats the spacies. He might **** Fox, IDK. If Falco only had CG then his matchup vs. Marth would be 90:10 then wouldn't it? It's 60:40 Marth so I think that shows that Falco has more than "Just CG."

Spoiler

Some haters these days... You out-debate someone and they start dodging your points and bringing out irrelevant "facts."

If either of you want to have an actual debate with me on this matchup, I'd be all for it.

how exactly was i not debating? sure i was a bit subjectice and biased, but again i know wayyy more about falco than kirby, so just straigthen out my facts about kirby if im wrong.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

lmao...

i brought up his metagame cuz that is basically what you are talking about.

and yes he basically is where he is at on the list because of chaingrabs, same with D3 and soon to be the same with Ice Climbers. I didnt say tiers mattered, AND WTF ABOUT YOSHI? lol

half the people in this thread....THIS IS A FALCO THREAD, but it is obvious kirby does good against all spacies.

i didn't say 60-40 was a **** matchup >_>

if falco was camping on Battle Field....simply jump to a platform or go below one. And for counterpick stages....see what happens to falco on stages like green greens or RC...vs anyone really >_>

Kirby has no bad stages.

EDIT: Marth is just good with spacing and all. His upB can disrupt falco's CG and anything else. Marth has been beating falco since melee

anyways i don't like talking about marth cuz he ***** poor lil kirby

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

how exactly was i not debating? sure i was a bit subjectice and biased, but again i know wayyy more about falco than kirby, so just straigthen out my facts about kirby if im wrong.

I was aiming that more at Suspect. And I meant debate with me. Neither of you are really trying to prove me wrong, whereas I've done the oposite several times.

lmao...

i brought up his metagame cuz that is basically what you are talking about.

and yes he basically is where he is at on the list because of chaingrabs, same with D3 and soon to be the same with Ice Climbers. I didnt say tiers mattered, AND WTF ABOUT YOSHI? lol

half the people in this thread....THIS IS A FALCO THREAD, but it is obvious kirby does good against all spacies.

i didn't say 60-40 was a **** matchup >_>

if falco was camping on Battle Field....simply jump to a platform or go below one. And for counterpick stages....see what happens to falco on stages like green greens or RC...vs anyone really >_>

Kirby has no bad stages.

EDIT: Marth is just good with spacing and all. His upB can disrupt falco's CG and anything else. Marth has been beating falco since melee



anyways i don't like talking about marth cuz he ***** poor lil kirby

But your point was that Falco only has his CG. If that was true, since Marth can escape it easily, and therefore he'd **** Falco. This is only if he had his CG only. Doesn't it make sense to you that i a character with one and only one great technique would get ***** by a character that could escape it? Since Falco DOESN'T get ***** by Marth it proves that Falco has more than just CG. Can you comprehend that?

Falco can camp on Battlefield with SHL and SHDL, or FHL if he wants to I guess.

 

[XxBlackxX]

lmao...

i brought up his metagame cuz that is basically what you are talking about.

where?

and yes he basically is where he is at on the list because of chaingrabs, same with D3 and soon to be the same with Ice Climbers. I didnt say tiers mattered, AND WTF ABOUT YOSHI? lol

not really...

half the people in this thread....THIS IS A FALCO THREAD, but it is obvious kirby does good against all spacies.

but you said ANYONE, and if you want someone whos not falco main, SOLID doesn't think it's ****. kirby "does good" against spacies is true, and i admit that, however, your previous statement was "ANYONE knows kirby ***** spacies" which is just untrue.

if falco was camping on Battle Field....simply jump to a platform or go below one. And for counterpick stages....see what happens to falco on stages like green greens or RC...vs anyone really >_>

green greens is banned. RC is obviously a bad stage for falco...i usually strike it. your point?

Kirby has no bad stages.

it doesn't affect the matchup discussion....sure he doesn't have BAD stages, but falco can CP with his GOOD/OKAY stages. your point?

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

I never said falco did.

Yea falco has other stuff, we know that


EDIT: Green Greens is not banned, at least to the tournies i been to it was not. And Falcos good/okay stages still dont help the match up. so it's still at 60-40

 

[XxBlackxX]

I never said falco did.

Yea falco has other stuff, we know that


EDIT: Green Greens is not banned, at least to the tournies i been to it was not. And Falcos good/okay stages still dont help the match up. so it's still at 60-40

where exactly is green greens not banned?

and also, the good/okay stages don't help kirby either? so why bring it up in the first place?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I never said falco did.

Yea falco has other stuff, we know that

You really need to stop contradicting yourself, first you said Falco only has CG, then you said Falco has other stuff "and [you] know that" Make up your mind, seriously. You keep being hypocritical, if you cannot argue one point and not repeatedly change your opinion then you are making it difficult to discuss this, because debating is all about picking one opinion and defending that opinion with facts.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

I said falco was where he was at on the tier list because of his chaingrabs

 

[XxBlackxX]

I said falco was where he was at on the tier list because of his chaingrabs

and i think kirby should be low tier. >_>
you have to back up your statement if you want people to agree/understand you.

btw, j/k about the low tier, it was just an example.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Yea he is high tier(really only cuz of chaingrabs).

This is what you said, so like I said just now, please stop contradicting yourself.

See, XxBlackxX understands my point on debating.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

um ok...if falco didn't have those CG's that would take away "easy rack up damage" on opponents. Making him maybe a lil lower than kirby

low tier kirby would be melee kirby >_>

 

[B0mbe1c]

Falco was Top in Melee, he had no CGs there. ;;>.>

Kirby > Falco, that is the truth (unfortunately). D:

 

[Denzi]

um ok...if falco didn't have those CG's that would take away "easy rack up damage" on opponents. Making him maybe a lil lower than kirby

Doesn't Kirby have grab combos to "easily rack up damage" on a lot of characters?

Even without the Chaingrab, Falco has other ways to damage opponents anyways (dthrow -> gatling combo does a fair amount). It is not by a long shot the only thing that influences his tier list spot.

I do agree with you that Kirby has the advantage though.

@Bombe1c: Melee isn't really easily comparable to Brawl; the games are just too different.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

Falco was Top in Melee, he had no CGs there. ;;>.>

Kirby > Falco, that is the truth (unfortunately). D:

that was just stupid, why would u bring up melee's falco -_-

Doesn't Kirby have grab combos to "easily rack up damage" on a lot of characters?

Even without the Chaingrab, Falco has other ways to damage opponents anyways (dthrow -> gatling combo does a fair amount). It is not by a long shot the only thing that influences his tier list spot.

I do agree with you that Kirby has the advantage though.

@Bombe1c: Melee isn't really easily comparable to Brawl; the games are just too different.

Yea kirby has grab combos that rack up damage on about 80% of the cast. If he didn't....he would be a few spots lower on the tier list....see what im saying?

why does everyone keep saying "even without CG's" I DID NOT SAY CG's was his only way to damage opponents.

 

[pure_awesome]

...so hey, this is a flame war. How's that going?

Here's the facts:

Falco's Bair and Utilt take care of all of Kirby's aerials.

Falco's Ftilt and SHDair take care of all of Kirby's ground game, minus Fsmash, which isn't going to be used as a damage racker anyway.

Kirby has no valid approach options against Falco.

Falco has many approach options against Kirby, including SHLaser, SHDair, SHBair, Hyphen Smash, Boost Smash, PWG, etc.

Falco's Laser game is alive and well meaning FALCO decides who approaches, and when.

All of Kirby's throw combos, including the Dthrow to Inhale that Suspect was talking about before, can be DI'd or SDI'd out of without incurring too much damage. This is assuming Kirby can even get a grab with his puny little nub arms.


Kirby has a much easier time killing Falco than Falco does Kirby. However, this fact is difficult to take advantage of when it's so **** hard to even hit Falco in the first place.

This match is perfectly even. 50-50.


EDIT: On a side note, SOLID being a Marth main means absolutely nothing and his opinion is welcome here. Mew2King is a Metaknight main, does that mean we shouldn't listen to him if he pipes up?

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

I stopped reading when you said the match-up was even

 

[pure_awesome]

I stopped reading when you said the match-up was even

And I stopped paying attention to your posts when you said Dtilt was a viable defence against Falco's approach, so I suppose we're even.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

I said that because someone said kirby cant do anything while he is ducking. dtilt can be done on any character what makes falco so special?

 

[Denzi]

I said that because someone said kirby cant do anything while he is ducking. dtilt can be done on any character what makes falco so special?

It's just not gaurenteed to outright stop any approaching Falco, that's all.

edit @ pure awesome: There's no way the match-up is even. You say that all Kirby's grab combos can be DI'd out of, and they can. But when you get grabbed, you have to consider all of Kirby's grab combos. He has so many options out of a grab that it's difficult to predict what he'll do.

 

[pure_awesome]

but while he is ducking what is stopping him from quickly dtilting you once you are close enough....

This is not saying "Dtilt can hit Falco."
This is saying "There is nothing Falco can do to stop Kirby from Dtilting him when he gets close."

It's just not gaurenteed to outright stop any approaching Falco, that's all.

That's somewhat of an understatement, Denz.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

*facepalm* im done

 

[pure_awesome]

Thank god. I was scared next you were going to tell us about how effective Kirby's Nair is in the matchup.


Anyway, moving even further away from the flame war: Kirby's approach options. He's got none. Where's this damage coming from?

 

[TechnoMonster]

It's coming from when Kirby walks up to you and grabs you, takes you 0-30 and off the stage for more fun. Kirby has a plenty good approach mixup and if you want two in particular, why don't you try short hop f-air and full hop falling B-airs?

Rather then, that Falco has no effective approaches that Kirby can't either poke at or just plain shield.

This fight is a war, I can tell you from experience. Anyone that tries to reduce it into "who can outgay who" needs to go actually play some Falcos and Kirbies.

Kirby needs to lay on the beats and avoid the damage.
Falco needs to build solid damage, stay safe, and be quick to the punch to lock Kirby down.

If you smash DI out of my F-throw-U-air, I'll just run after you and do something more interesting next time. Really, smash DI isn't the end of the combo against a good Kirby, and last time I played SK92, I got in some interesting followups (consider dash attack, tipper f-smash), as well as getting a few nifty reverse grabs on some airdodge happy smash DIing friends more recently. I still got ***** though.

As far as the matchup, in my experience, I think I could beat any Falco less skilled than me with good consistency, but the ones that are more scary than me are on a much higher level, it seems, so who knows, but I'd be fine with 50-50.