Match-up Rediscussion

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I implore you to read the whole of this opening post before posting anything.

Around a year ago and since the start of brawl we had match-up discussions going. At the first they were very useful. They were detailed descriptions of match-ups and told one how to play a match-up. Over the course of the project, they dissolved into random facts and opinions over who had the advantage in the match. The focus around how to play the match-up was completely lost.

Brawl has been around for two years now, and match-ups have certainly changed over the course of those two years. I think is about time that we reintroduce that idea of match-up discussion.

However this time, we do it right. We talk about how to play the match-ups. We take the knowledge we know now, theorycraft the BS out of everything in the match-up, test things out, get feedback, and eventually come up with an actual summary of how to play the match-up. No more of this f***ing a** b***s*** about numbers. Or who has the ****ing advantge. That stuff is irrelevent, totally pointless, and does not make us better at figuring out that match-up. Knowing what to do in what situation helps you become a better player. That is the purpose of match-up discussions. To disect the match-up and tell people about it so that they know how to play the match-up.

This is what I would like to see us do, and I propose that we reopen match-up discussions again with the clear objective on how one plays the match-up. If anyone so much as even mentions a number ratio, or a declares an advantage, we utilt them

 

[SuSa]

See frame data. /thread

More serious note:

Apply frame data. /thread

Dead serious though:

I stopped caring about matchup discussions at some point. Very few players play much alike, and it's more about adapting to your opponent more than their character. Outside of a few character specific gimmiks (EG: Falco's chaingrab) there isn't much difference. They just have different spacing moves, different camping options, and different punishes on Snake. (See: Grabbing after shielding ftilt1)

So... if you guys do decide to do this, I won't really be participating unless I see something stupidly wrong which I feel like correcting.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

There will always be differences in playing styles. Many avenues exist to punish various options. While I would like to create an optimal way to play against a character, I realize that is impossible. But, also is it impossible to say that there exists a generic playing style that works for all characters.

The purpose is to more understand the options available to you underguise of a generic title "how to play". If I am getting Ftilted by Shiek at a lower percent, what options exist to get out of the ftilt lock sooner. Or even at higher percents, which way might it be better to DI to avoid the most punishment. When getting juggled by MK with Uairs, what are the best avenues to escape that? While there are no combos in brawl, how you DI, when you decide to jump, or when you decide to airdodge changes the options of your opponent which effects how much more easily you can get back to the stage. These sort of things I have never seen before in our discussions very often.

 

[SuSa]

That's because that goes into reading and mixups. A very, very poor area of theorycrafting.

One way to escape Sheik's ftilt for example would be to SDI each hit (like a god) straight into Sheik and try to FF bair. If they read that, they just ftilt the other way.

The other way is to try and SDI up to allow yourself time to pull a grenade. If they read this, then they just grab you.

Both are your best [and only] options assuming they aren't messing up the timing for the ftilt and you can SDI each hit [like a god]

However both can still get you punished.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

We should rediscuss things. How else are people going to know what to do against characters that they may not get to play that often. We COULD always go to the opposing sides' MU thread but some are outdated or incomplete. I'm all for this personally and wouldnt mind contributing what I know.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

That's because that goes into reading and mixups. A very, very poor area of theorycrafting.

One way to escape Sheik's ftilt for example would be to SDI each hit (like a god) straight into Sheik and try to FF bair. If they read that, they just ftilt the other way.

The other way is to try and SDI up to allow yourself time to pull a grenade. If they read this, then they just grab you.

Both are your best [and only] options assuming they aren't messing up the timing for the ftilt and you can SDI each hit [like a god]

However both can still get you punished.

It is better to know your options, then not know them at all. I have never played melee before really except in the past month. In the past month, I learned how important knowing your options can be. For a couple weeks I would always get ***** by CF because I never knew how to properly DI his hits. Once I learned to started to mix-up DIing away and DIing towards, I started avoided more Knees that would always lead into an edgeguard I could never recover from.

Even if your option can get you punished, the choice you make could lead to less punishment than a different one. DIing shiek's Ftilt in a fashion that causes the ftilt to end more quickly rather than later is a good idea. The same with MK's Uair chains. Uair chains are a good frame trap in that I cannot escape with jumping, or airdoding because it causes me to get Daired, however, getting Daired stops MK from being able to Uair chain me which could have lead to an UpB or a tornado. MK cannot follow Dair easily from that situation. Plus, I could escape with a grenade pull once the Uair chain gets started. If MK is at high percents at the top of the screen and I am at low percents, a grenade should not be easily avoided and getting hit by it at the top of the screen would kill MK while I survive it.

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

Agreed. MU ratio invite nothing but arguing about the numbers which is real easy. We need to focus on what are our options against each character, what percent we kill them at, and best stages to ban and CP. Numbers only invite nothing but arguing. If you want to see a good example of what happens when people argue about the numbers and not what to do check out the falcon boards or take my word for it and not waste your time.

 

[Sync.]

I agree with the creation of a match-up rediscussion thread. I think what really separates new players and experienced players is knowledge and application of options. I think if newer Snake's had a reference point other than just "mixing-up" it would help out a lot. Some players just don't know there's other options other than air dodging or rolling. That's how a lot of new players fall behind.

 

[Attila_]

no numbers is a good idea... the question is... who'll contribute?

 

[Sync.]

I will. I used to not be active on the Snake boards and only lurked but I think I have some knowledge of a lot of match-ups. Houston is quite diverse.

 

[napZzz]

I can talk about anything that isn't mid tier, and various random low tier matchups

**** mid tiers they all know snake inside and out and I dont knwo **** about them, some of these janky b-c tier characters

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

I know a bit about falco, ZSS, diddy and marth. Yeah i get messed up by some mid-tiers too.

 

[Underload]

That's cool. You know that I keep all of those matchup threads open for a reason, right? It's for you to post whatever you want to say, whenever you want to say it. They're supposed to be bumped. This thread is a great motivator and all, but why don't you lead by example?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I am not SuSa who can post anything and it immediatly be popular. I wanted to try to motivate this idea first before starting anything. Now that I know everyone (except Sooth-Sayer) is all for it, I am willing to continue this now.

The best course of action that I can see is to actually restart from scratch. Trying to emphasize the idea that this is not just a match-up thread under the old "who has the advantage" mentality, but a slightly more in-depth look at the match-ups going past the whole basic summary of the pro. and cons of each character.

If you don't mind UL, I like to host a new series of in-depth match-up threads using the older discussion threads as a basic reference to some things. The only quesiton I have is what do people feel they are most ignorant in and what we should look at first.

 

[Toneh]

Low tiers is the most important matches to be discussed

 

[Underload]

Starting completely over? Probably not gonna happen. Sure, you get that 'fresh breath' feeling when you clean things up and make them all tidy, but in this case it's WAYYYY too much of a pain to post in / manage. Throw out some other ideas, if you could.

 

[Toneh]

Throw out some other ideas, if you could.

I got one.

Lets talk about match ups......... based on wifi.

 

[iamjason8]

Agreed. Super keen for the discussion. :D

 

[Technodeath]

One way to escape Sheik's ftilt for example would be to SDI each hit (like Mr Doom)

That would indeed be correct.

 

[Toneh]

Agreed. Super keen for the discussion. :D

Thats 2 votes lets get this going