Match-Up Rediscussion #3! Sonic

[feardragon64]

Ok xisin, I agree with what you're saying. But how exactly to you keep him from having the room he wants? All he has to do is run to the other side in like a second and he has room. Obviously Marth can't stay on him entirely. I'm just asking because that's my problem with sonics.

 

[Camalange]

Camalange you aren't going to punish Marth's fair with a fair of your own lol

If Sonic powershields a Fair he can Fair OoS. Not saying Marth's Fair is bad in this MU and that it will happen everytime, but it's possible.

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@Xisin

I'm also very well aware that good Marth players use logic and mix up with recovering, I'm just saying if there's any character you should be worrying about doing it the most...it's Sonic. That's all.

I agree with your post, except I think Gf2 is a great troll xD

Stage wise, FD is the best against Marth, BF is probably the worst. Other than that though, there aren't too many stages that Marth ***** Sonic or Sonic ***** Marth on. It then becomes more of a personal preference.

 

[§leepy God]

♪ Well, Jungle Japes is also a bad Marth stage, but that stage is also bad for Sonic. O_o †

♪ And Lylat Cruise might be another stage that Marth does good vs Sonic since the tilting can help his tippers sometimes. †

 

[C.box]

If Sonic powershields a Fair he can Fair OoS. Not saying Marth's Fair is bad in this MU and that it will happen everytime, but it's possible.

Well out of a powershield even attacks like mk's max range dtilt can be punishable <_<.

 

[Camalange]

I don't find Lylat Cruise to be that bad.

It's a good stage for Sonic as well. I'm sure Marth's are conditioned to recovering there but I'm sure the edges can only make it harder, no?


But not even including that, Sonic and Marth can both control the stage rather well. It's kinda like FD and BF combined.

EDIT: Hm...what do you Marth's think about Rainbow Cruise?

 

[Browny]

we normally just spindash oos

spindash to recover, spindash to approach, spindash to retreat, spindash to KO

 

[Camalange]

Sometimes we even Spindash OoS (Out of SPOTDODGE)


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Too many Sonics I see don't aerial OoS and it's quite saddening. Hence why I bring it up. It's very basic, yes, but many of you seem to be unaware of the MU (which is understandable) and only base your thoughts off of WiFi trash.

So when I see things like "65:35 pivot grab" I start to think "Hm, these people know nothing" so I'm forced to go back to basics...Like POWERSHIELDING AND OOS OPTIONS and WE DONT APPROACH WITH SPINDASH AND CHARGE IT ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE STAGE.

Caps for emphasis, not yelling xD

 

[Xisin]

From what i gather from reading the more in depth posts here is that sonic is going to wait for marth to do something and punish it. I just want to ask what sonic will do if marth does nothing? Marth doesnt have to shfair dodge or dtilt if there is enough distance between him and sonic, and its been said that sonic doesnt have approaches that are all that effective or safe. I have played against BlazeKatairi before but i guess thats hardly top level play even if it werent wifi lol.

varies on how gay/dumb the sonic is. If they have % lead the smarter ones will become super patient and just spin around waiting for you to do something, and since there is a timer and they have % lead then you must do something... haha trust me i do this to mks once i get % lead works pretty well except i do it with marth vs mk.

@fear while i do know that stages have nothing to do with match up discussions I'll bring this up for ya. I've never lost a game to any sonic on Brinstar. Small stage + that thing that breaks the stage apart on the right side kinda disrupts their movement. give them little room to breath. Again since stages don't happen in match up disccussions (or shouldnt.) but it was asked I'll answer the lylat thing, truth be told is pretty even on that stage for those two. the tilts don;t bother Marth THAT much and sonic has some pretty stupid tech chasing ability if you land on those platforms. On the flip side of thing the stage is smaller and thus allows pressuring to be easier. The battlefield platforms however are different and allow marth to dominate on that stage, hence why sonics normally ban it. RC is a horrid stage for marth.

and about keeping pressure... It's hard to do and what makes the match up sorta hard and it doesnt help that i'm limited in experience in this MU making this and a certain low tier a giant pain in the behind to me (not saying sonic is low tier.) What I can say is do not over commit to an action unless you want it to be punished if you miss... Sonic is very good at punishing and can get you from across the stage for even the simpliest lag/mistake. Back him into a corner, after that if he goes airborn thats where you want him. if he tries to attack through you pivot a DB1 if you whiff stop the attack right away. if he jumps off the stage he is silly, while marth prob wont gimp him he's giving up damage pretty much there anyway.

 

[Albert.]

haha trust me i do this to mks once i get % lead works pretty well except i do it with marth vs mk.

<3 The campy Marth

 

[Jim Morrison]

Lol, Sonic can be awesome on Brinstar, but it's very person dependant.

 

[Umby]

Quick note on countering Marth's Fair with Sonic's Fair.

SH/FH Double Fair (after first Fair): Yes.

SH FF Fair: No.

 

[Steel]

double fair is terrible, of course that can be punished.

 

[Camalange]

Lol, Sonic can be awesome on Brinstar, but it's very person dependant.

Yeah...I'd have to say Marth would do better on Brinstar generally, or I'm just apart of that person dependant factor


So are we agreed on a ratio? It's dumb yes, but I think we pretty much covered all of what Sonic and Marth can do unless anyone wants to add more.

I'm still set on 60:40 Marths favor
Marth should ban FD/(RC?), counterpick BF/Brinstar/Lylat (although both are good on this stage)

 

[Steel]

i think 60 40 is ok with me. though i want to wait for pierce's input before i do anything since he has the most exp in this match probably

 

[ViCTORiOUSViC]

Wait wait hold on
What is really the point of using spindash to recover?
Wouldn't it be better just to use HA sometimes?

 

[C.box]

Wait wait hold on
What is really the point of using spindash to recover?
Wouldn't it be better just to use HA sometimes?

Go watch any good sonic play, infact look up malcom, espy, shugo and you will see they barely use homing attack because it's actually a crappy option.

 

[ViCTORiOUSViC]

That's only if they don't have the double jump

 

[Camalange]

Sonics only use HA if they don't have a double jump and are in a really ****ty situation.


Spindash is an amazing option because it covers such a long distance and can be jumped out of. DownB is also a great momentum cancel, so not only will it save them from death, it helps get back to the stage.

 

[ViCTORiOUSViC]

Ohhh..now I get it
I never really used 2 understand why it was used for recovery
Thanks now I know

 

[Kinzer]

we need better input guys, no offense lol

Best thing said so far.

So far that I read anyway, if anything stupid/intelligent has been said, it's been too long of a post for me to read it thoroughly, but I trust it's been going strong for 4 pages. Lotsa big-brains in here, mhm.

What do I have to say about the topic at hand though?

Some people say fighting Sonic is annoying; Some people should see it from the other side, it's not walk in a field of Roses over there either.

Espy is amazing, and I'm proud to be his self-proclaimed ******** bro.

Alright but seriously though, I like 62.5:37.5 for a MU ratio, because even though Marth is an annoying character to deal with, no way does he have the same magnitude as G&W, regardless of both being a terrible MU. It's just that a G&W losing to a Sonic has less excuses to work with than a Marth, but it's not just a soft-counter for Sonic either :/ I can only hope you understand what I am saying here.

I'm also trying to keep this short, sweet, and straightforward, because I would be a hypocrite if I were to turn back on what I just said. I also hate repeating what others have said, and I'm sure some people have already came up with ways to deal with Marth/Sonic from Sonic/Marth's perspective, so that's just even more annoying; probably even moreso than playing the MU itself... hehe.

Edit: Oh Okay, now we're onto something here.

Did someone suggest that Japes was a bad Sonic stage?

Well, it's not the best stage for Sonic, but it's alright. This is coming from a person who would just ban Japes no matter the opponent character. Japes is just awesome.

Further Edit: Here we go again, something else that needs to be stressed.

Homing Attack is bad, don't let anybody else tell you otherwise, but I can't let a misconception go about. Whether it's already been corrected or not doesn't matter but I'm going to make sure people understand this:

Go ahead and spotdodge a Sonic who is HA-stalling, which it shouldn't be legal anyway. If that's going on, only bad Sonic's are going to gimp themselves, as long as they don't cancel the HA lag, as in let it run it's course, it will bounce back up on the stage, regardless of whether he's locked onto somebody/thing or not. Just wait for him to stop (or call him out and get him DQed I guess, something has to happen right? Assuming you're in the lead he'll have to come back up or he loses to time).

 

[e__]

NVM, read the thread.

I need to play better sonics.

 

[Boxob.]

Marth isn't anything amazing VS Sonic.

I've explained my point like 4121545093 times. I'm saying 40:60 Sonic, don't believe me?

Play me IRL.

 

[Xisin]

Might as well call this, don't think Pierce isn't posting. My vote is 60:40 Marf

 

[feardragon64]

I'm with xisin. Boxob can play whatever good Marth is around him. Neo, RoyR, Kadaj, Mike, etc.

 

[Supreme65]

I saw the MU percentage on sonic's board and marth is sonic's worst MU.

 

[Nike.]

Mikehaze and Espy recorded a ton of friendlies this week. Thought maybe they could be useful here

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=redghost16&view=videos

 

[Espy Rose]

After getting in a large portion of Marth practice with mikeHaze, I feel that it's safe to assume that the matchup's somewhere between 70:30 Marth to 60:40 Marth.

Sonic does have the tools to deal with Marth, but with proper spacing, Marth's range becomes something of a major problem.

That, and when pushed toward the edge of a level, Sonic's options become almost non-existent.

I can't say much based on the technical issues, but Marth's coverage of Sonic's options, ease of KOing when compared to Sonic, and edge pressure makes this match up an uphill fight.

65:35 sounds alright, actually.

 

[Kishin]

Marth has the advantage but it's probably closer in an actual match with all the crap Sonic can pull out. The side-b canceling shenanigans get me every time.