Match Up Re-Discussion: Ice Climbers

[Z'zgashi]

This thread is for discussing the Ice Climbers Match-Up. *cuts red tape*

 

[Delta-cod]

The Ice Climbers are gay because they have their stupid chain grab. Luckily, we're not bad at splitting them up.

You need to cover your landings, always. Either retreat a Bair while falling, get really far away, or use Egg Lay. Egg Lay is probably the most important move in this match up. It incapacitates one of the climbers and allows you to abuse the other one. It's fast, it has low end lag, and it forces a spotdodge reaction to avoid. If you land with this move, or even just use it, and the ICs dodge, they're probably going to run in for a grab immediately after, so counter with something of your own.

Killing Nana should always be a priority. Nair her to the edge or keep her in the air if you have to. If you keep her high up, Popo won't be able to do anything except wait for you to come back down. If Popo gets aggressive, and he probably will, you'll just want to grab him and throw him away and finish off Nana. Once you have Popo alone, take your time. In fact, if you're at a comfortable position, camp him. Run away, grab him and throw him in a nonlethal position, just waste the clock. If you start feeling concerned that you're going to be killed, just kill off SoPo and put your effort towards killing Nana on their next stock. If you kill Nana off but you're at high percents, just end Popo quickly and work on the next stock. Otherwise, burn the timer.

The ledge is an important part in this matchup because we can retreat there without fear of being grabbed. Desynced Ice Blocks do a number on our ledge game though. We can't do anything about it except get up somehow. Another thing to be careful of is dtilt. If you get knocked out of your DJ by dtilt, your stock is done. Although the ledge is important, it's hard to use correctly and you'll need to be very careful.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Delta has mostly everything I was going to put down.

But A few things to note, watch out for Blizzard!
Even if Popo is alone this move pretty much hurts us badly when we least expect it, especially if Nana is still alive.
Oddly enough Nair messes them up more then usual, so if you ever footstool them Nair Immediately after it for Basically a free hit since we can do this both in the Air and grounded. For another footstool shenanigan we can Egglay one of them and possibly DownB the other.
Icicles as Delta stated, hurts us badly at the edge. It has messed up my ledge camping quite a few times and not sure if it's correct but two or three icicles break DJ armor.
Don't underestimate Side-B, may seem like a bad move if used the wrong ways, But it comes out a bit fast and for recovery purposes you might as well not Edgeguard if both of them are still alive. Of course do it when only Popo is left since he cannot go high at all without Nana.

For this MU i'd say it's 50:50 as long as we keep seperating them with Egglay, Bair, getting rid of Nana most of the match, and camping them if they're trying to bait us in by using just Icicles/Blizzard we should do alright as long as we don't get grabbed.

EDIT: (Maybe I should start being the first one to post)

 

[Sunnysunny]

Don't get grabbed.

No but seriously,egglay is godlike in this match up. If you get nana she won't mash to get outta the egg, and if you get popo nanas a sitting duck. Of course you should space well and be careful in this match up, but don't be afraid to go at them. Sometimes just running up and down throwing works pretty well. (If there not doing desync'd ice breath)

Scared money don't make no money.

I'll post something more lengthy but yea. Homework right now. :<

 

[Silent Beast]

If you start feeling concerned that you're going to be killed, just kill off SoPo and put your effort towards killing Nana on their next stock. If you kill Nana off but you're at high percents, just end Popo quickly and work on the next stock. Otherwise, burn the timer.

I'll add a friendly reminder that we can GR-Upsmash Popo.

 

[RaptorTEC]

The way I do it is try to kill nana. Once that is done I dont even try to kill popo. Just camp and let him come to me so I can rack up damage. Then basically try to waste as much time as possible. If stock is taken, repeat. I usually try to time them out like this but sometimes take all their stocks as well.

 

[Delta-cod]

Don't get grabbed.

No but seriously,egglay is godlike in this match up. If you get nana she won't mash to get outta the egg, and if you get popo nanas a sitting duck. Of course you should space well and be careful in this match up, but don't be afraid to go at them. Sometimes just running up and down throwing works pretty well. (If there not doing desync'd ice breath)

Scared money don't make no money.

I'll post something more lengthy but yea. Homework right now. :<

This is important too. It's good to start off defensive, but mixing up a typical retreat with a dash grab rush isn't always a bad idea, albeit risky. I'd rather do a Bair rush or something in most cases, although I have dash grabbed more often than is normally safe. ICs don't expect to be rushed at, lol.

I'll add a friendly reminder that we can GR-Upsmash Popo.

I knew I forgot something. D:

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Random things to keep in mind (cuz i like lists)

• If you grab Popo, Nana can still hit you pretty easily unless you chew while hitting her. If you grab Nana Popo's probably gonna wreck you. That in mind try not to grab unless theres reasonable distance between the 2 of them.
• When you Egglay one of them it makes for a pretty good situation for you. You get a few invincibility frames while they're inside you helping you not get punished and after wards they are properly desynced. If Nana was egglayed she cannot mash out so she will stay for as long as possible.
• When they are forced to recover low you can either try to grab the ledge and gimp Nana, or you can go for the riskier option and do a falling nair, bair or dair and try to gimp Popo.
• Don't get grabbed. Really Just don't. Some IC's seem to think that Yoshi is harder than some to CG but they'll get over that and you will die.
• You can out camp them generally.
• Also keep in mind that the GR > Upsmash on Them has an awkward timing. If you immediately run and upsmash after you release you WILL miss

Also when you split them up try to desync your thoughts. if you toss popo off stage, nana will instinctivly run after him. Don't assume she's gonna try to avoid you or guard in anyway. Ehh theres more but i don't feel like typing an essay atm

 

[Poltergust]

Grabs work a lot more often here because of the delay that Nana experiences when the ICs player does an input. That's why Egg Lay is usually extremely safe on them, because even if Popo manages to dodge it Nana won't.

 

[Z'zgashi]

One cool little trick I use, is if you egglay Nana, then throw/hit Popo offstage, once Nana breaks out you can charge an fsmash in Popo's direction, and Nana will just run past you where you can unleash it as she goes by. If you can get popo away from Nana after the fsmash, it often kills since fsmash is so strong and because Nana doesnt DI and has crap recovery. Regardless, it hits her far and racks up damage well. I also dont mind wasting it for damage as you should never be killing with that move in this MU.

 

[Roller]

fire eggs at us when far away, pivot grab us when close. Nana gets combod into upair easily and dies to upair absurdly quickly.

Throwing eggs is annoying as balls for us to deal with, because we can't ps the initial egg hit and the explosion with both nana and popo. So we have to hold down sheild, and it probably wouldn't be too hard to punish us after. Your pivotgrab outranges ours by a mile. So there's no reason for you guys to be getting grabbed too often except off landings, which you should be spacing well.

Yoshi is annoying as hell for me.

 

[bigman40]

Hi Roller. =]

 

[Roller]

My man, Smalls. =)

 

[Z'zgashi]

Never go aggro.

 

[Delta-cod]

What makes you say that?

 

[Airborne]

Never go aggro.

I disagree. There are times in fact to go aggro with this MU, especially when you land an egg lay, or straight up separate them. I'm not too familiar with this MU, so I'm not sure how to roll with it. =\

All I can say is that don't go aggressive for the sole purpose of trying 0-death one of them; build the damage you can while they're separated, and back off when you feel threatened by Popo's presence (i.e. when you're above him onstage,when you're opened to be grabbed by him, etc.).

Half the sh*t I said is probably redundant.

 

[Z'zgashi]

let me rephrase that, don't go aggro when they're together

 

[Delta-cod]

That's also a bad philosophy. Constant defense becomes predictable. You should be on defense for about 90% of the time when they're together, but a sudden Bair rush down/Dash grab when they're expecting you to keep running can be very effective at separating them and keeping them guessing.

 

[Poltergust]

You should also not down-B unless you definitely know that it'll hit. They never get shield-poked by it.

Never.

 

[Deleted member]

Never.

ily polt haha

 

[Sharky]

delta you're finally learning this mu, I'm so proud of you. =D

another little gimmick: when you throw popo offstage nana will always full hop after him. This is useful =D

 

[bigman40]

Wavebounce Egglay. Lands on Popo? Nair rush.

 

[Delta-cod]

Wavebounce Egglay. Lands on Popo? Nair rush.

The law has been spoken.

 

[Z'zgashi]

bump

 

[F-Tier Player]

I find that I can mash out pretty quickly against IC's. If there was anything I'd try not doing, it's nairing toward them...lol

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

eh this ones pretty straight forward. Dont get grabbed. Egglays useful. Rushdowns when you think its appropriate. Remember that they usually have to come to you. You can GR upsmash popo. Nana Can't mash out of egglay. This ones pretty much over gashi we sould probably move onto getting a ratio down

 

[bigman40]

Let me explain my post a little more. Wavebounced (WB) egglays make this matchup hell for ICs due to the fact that it can easily snag one of the ICs and keep you safe. Most of the time, we're using Bairs and DJC Egglays (seriously, stop calling it dragonic egglay) to space out IC's and separate them from doing heavy damage. The problem with DJC egglays is that it puts you in a non-favorable position unless you DJC backwards, and if you were to get hit out of DJC, then you're somewhere you don't want to be without the use of a jump. WBed egglays open up much more leeway for DJC egglays. You're going to slowly run out of space to keep away from IC's regardless if you're DJCing or WBing, and we have a lot easier time getting away from them than other characters like D3, and if egglay lands on anyone of them (mainly Nana) we can just run past Popo to open up more camping space while he defends Nana until she syncs back up. If we were to snag Popo, we can literally Nair rush her to the other side of the stage (provided that she's not at low percents) and then deal with her offstage forcing Popo to decide to save Nana or fight 1 on 1.

Btw, if you're falling towards the ground, the last thing you want to do is airdodge and give them a chance to grab you. I'd much rather take damage and be slightly juggled than giving them a chance to grab us.

This is why I said I didn't explain this matchup enough to you Polt cause I highly believe WBed egglay is pivotal to shutting ICs down.

 

[Poltergust]

Ugh, I currently have a lot of trouble doing just B-reversed Egg Lay now (I seem to Egg Roll about 50% of the time. It's weird because I got the timing down for turn-around Egg Lays just fine). I need to get that down before I do WBed Egg Lays (because it's a combination of turn-around and B-reversed Egg Lays, right?). Just give me time on that.

 

[bigman40]

When I mean WBed Egglays, I mean your back and momentum is going towards the opponent and is reversed.
For turn-around, I mean you're just turning Yoshi in the opposite direction (momentum still going the same way it initially started).

As for WBing, I set my R to specials mainly for it. I have around a 95% rate. It's my main use for landing and for staying safe when using egglays.

 

[Poltergust]

Uh, here's what I mean when I was talking about the different Egg Lays:

Turn-around Egg Lay: Yoshi faces opposite direction, momentum remains the same. Performed by inputting backwards on the control stick, then pressing B.

B-reversed Egg Lay: Yoshi faces opposite direction, momentum is reversed. Performed by pressing B then inputting backwards on the control stick. Seems to have a harsher timing than turn-around Egg Lay.

Wavebounced Egg Lay: Yoshi faces original direction, momentum is reversed. Performed by inputting backwards on the control stick, pressing B, then pressing the original direction on the control stick. Basically a combination of turn-around Egg Lay and B-reversed Egg Lay.

That's what you're referring to, right?

 

[bigman40]

Place WB in the definition where you have B-reverse at. That's what I was talking about. Never did see the point in reversing your momentum, yet keeping your direction the same. No moves extend far enough to even warrant it imo.

 

[Poltergust]

Well, I think that's what the terms are supposed to be called anyways.

Still, I'm glad you're just talking about B-reversed Egg Lays instead of Wavebounced ones. Those seem harder to do than DR without the YBC set-up lol.

Anyways, yeah, I'm working on getting my B-reversals to be more consistent. Unfortunately, B-reversals have killed me more than a few times while recovering because I'd B-reverse an Egg Toss away from the ledge in certain hectic situations. I need to remain calm and not move the control stick too much if I'm facing away from the ledge. I have not dared to do a B-reversed Egg Lay off-stage, though.

You know what's funny? I just remembered a couple of weeks ago that you can ETS simply by holding the control stick in the opposite diagonal direction. Up until then, I've been holding it in the up direction then sliding it to the opposite diagonal direction. This resulted in me doing a grounded B-reversed Egg Toss roughly half the time I used it which messed up my spacing quite a bit in a lot of matches and even got me killed. At least I'm doing it correctly now. ^_^;

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Wooow ETS i couldn't tell you the last time i used that lmao. I stopped seeing it as useful unless i was running to the ledge. Also big didn't I tell you that you didn't explain it to him well enough? <3

 

[bigman40]

Celes, don't even front. You also admitted that you didn't explain the matchup enough before Polt had to play against Lain. It's just as much your fault as it is mine little punk.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Hey I'm a scrub wifi Yoshi who doesn't go to tournys. The mighty blood god doesn't listen to my opinion </3. Yeah but real talk we need an actual match-up summary so everyone can understand what we're saying here.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Before we wrap this up, I have to ask, should we switch our ratios to the +1/-1 thing from now on and try and convert the old ratios to this as well?

And as for mu summaries, i'll need some help from you guys. The old way I was doing it was that I went through the discussion and pulled out key posts and added them all together, but what I think would work better, would be that if you feel confident in the mu knowledge, that you could please write up a summary either here or in the discussion. If we could get multiple write ups from different people (and hopefully if the other character boards are awesome enough, they could give one as well) we could have a nice bit of information to go over. If you don't have enough experience, that's fine, don't feel like it's your duty, but if you can, that would be really helpful :3

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Someone get on that Matchup Summary. Or Gashi you can take all the comments and sum them up and see if its agree'd. I would but its not my project lol

 

[Yikarur]

we only write what we are capable of but I never really read what ICs could do to us.
and the offically use is
B-Reverse = momentum + facing direction shift
Wavebounce = momentum shift, facing direction keeps the same

then we can create new names for DJC Application like DJCWave Bounce (wavebounce effect but with used double jump) etc etc D:
Yoshis NeutralB is so versatile

oh It's hard to sy if this match-up is advantagous or disadvantagous. Doing IC Ratios is the hardest :/

 

[Z'zgashi]

It's weird cuz if we mess up, we're screwed, and if their nana ****s around, they're screwed

 

[MX778]

The Ice Climbers are very tough opponents (duh), but we have many ways to get around half of their crap compared to most characters:

1.) Our overall camp game is better as long as you do NOT let them use their Ice Shot (standard B). With our eggs, their desync'd blizzards are therefore rendered useless because the eggs cane go right through them.

2.) Yoshi has several seperation options. The Egg Lay is one and grabbing them is another.
When you grab one of them, THROW THEM AWAY IMMEDIATELY. I can't stress this enough. If you hold one of them for too long, the other is going to smack the **** out of you with that carved hammer. But all in all, when you grab either one, U-throw is probably your best bet in terms of seperating one IC from the other.

3.) Believe it or not, being in the air is probably where Yoshi is at his worst against the chainhugging Ice Climbers. Any good Ice Climbers will stalk you from the ground no matter where you go while you are in the air. So with that being said, what Yoshi should do in the air is either:

1.) You can aim straight for the ledge. Probably the safest option imo.
or
2.) You B-Reverse an Egg Lay to confuse the Ice Huggers for a safe landing. Then you can resume camping happily. <3