Match Up Export: G&W

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, by the way, D-air >>> Kirbycide. It's totally safe and it *****.

Yeah and by the way I really don't agree that Kirby can work around MK's edgeguarding. I just think that most players don't understand how to edgeguard, since that requires more matchup knowledge, while recovering is much easier and usually only involves your own character knowledge.

By the way G&W is pretty much better than Kirby on like every stage except Brinstar, and he's still pretty dangerous on that stage, which is why I really didn't care to talk about stages...but w/e. Actually the best stage is probably Smashville, since the platform might actually give Kirby a LEGIT chance to recover every so often.

 

[Sage JoWii]

actually^

G&W does really bad on FD
YI too

Your best bet is probably to go there

Ok, so....completely useless post. ^^^

WHY <----is what fails to be present in your post. It helps the discussion if you'd present a reason WHY you think we should take GW to FD. Honestly, for all I know it could be a bad GW stage, but not for this MatchUp. It's flat (good for techchasing) it's open (advantageous for aerials such as DAir and FAir) and the blastzones, while they don't hinder, don't help.

YI seems like a good option though...the random ghost can help recovery. the slanting platform allows for some tricks PLUS it helps avoid the DAirs a bit and the slope in the middle seems like it should helps us a bit though lemme test it to see why. My only argument with that stage is the relatively close side blastzones but that helps both Kirby and GW when FSmashing.

EDIT: Two completely post apparently because A2 offers nothing as well.

 

[Triple R]

you don't get it
there are ALOT of bad G&W mains out there lol
alot

I think the same could be said for any character board lol.

I did just play against a G&W at the GamesNGo Tourney this past Saturday. So if people want to look at that and say what kirby(me) did wrong or what the G&W could have done better, maybe it would help discussion. I know there's plenty of improvement available on both sides since we played more friendly like at this tourney.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnP7c-ivsBc

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeeeeeah as I was saying...

from the GW perspective....first match...not enough grabs, didn't charge Smashes, not enough F-airs, totally failed at edgeguarding (but it was SV too which kinda helps Kirby). When he was recovering, he didn't throw out a D-air/F-air and got killed by Kirby's B-air for it...yeah.

Honestly Triple R...you were playing pretty well, and just did the right things to punish him for just failing at the matchup.

 

[Hylian]

Why did Kirby's tier position suddenly come up? o_o

If every G&W is bad except for UTD Zac, then we could easily say ChuDat's the UTD Zac of Kirby. I mean, inherently G&W is a very straightforward character, and if only UTD Zac can play him "good", then I guess the same can be said about ChuDat and Kirby.

Ok..but I've played chu so I think my opinion on the match-up is pretty valid. Have you played Zac? Or myself? Or Kaak? Or Vinnie? Or Noj? Or..you get my point. I've played a lot of kirbys from all over the US actually and I also play kirby myself. And yes I won, because even though chu is a better player than myself, GW pretty much destroys kirby. I would say around 65:35 though I hate putting numbers on match-ups.

Other people can play GW "good" it's just they aren't consistent and don't have near the results zac has. What kirbys are beating the other good GW's like Vinnie/Noj(when he played)/Kaak/me even etc?

The only reason I say pretty much no one knows how to play GW right is because there are a lot of GW players and when people destroy them they just assume things about the match-up. Generally I don't like going off what other people say and I take my own observations from playing characters because I travel a lot and can do that, so you can just take my opinion for what it's worth for you.

I hate how most match-up discussions devolve into trying to figure out a number, rather than going into detail on a match-up and not worrying about the number.

 

[Kewkky]

And your boards are HELLA stupid (a lot of discussion how Kirby loses to ROB? Madness, that is in fact one of Kirby's best matchups). But I guess since you've needed to live with an inferior character, your mainers are better at adapting to matchups.

With this comment, you've cemented the fact that you know nothing. So now that's 4 reasons!

1) You'll never change your mind.
2) You're underrating Kirby.
3) You've played bad Kirbies.
4) You know nothing about top/high-level Kirby play.

If you want to disagree with them, be my guest. And make sure to explain and describe the reasons why I'm wrong about you!


Until then, I won't worry about dealing with you. I tried, and I remember that during some previous MU discussion I tried as well and ended up frustrated with your smartassiness. Guess what I did back then? I just ignored your posts and continued on. If you've got no idea about how a character works, why even jump into their MU discussions, I'll never know. You MIGHT have the right idea about why the MU is our disadvantage, but only for the wrong reasons, and that's not good enough for me.

Ok..but I've played chu so I think my opinion on the match-up is pretty valid. Have you played Zac? Or myself? Or Kaak? Or Vinnie? Or Noj? Or..you get my point. I've played a lot of kirbys from all over the US actually and I also play kirby myself. And yes I won, because even though chu is a better player than myself, GW pretty much destroys kirby. I would say around 65:35 though I hate putting numbers on match-ups.

Other people can play GW "good" it's just they aren't consistent and don't have near the results zac has. What kirbys are beating the other good GW's like Vinnie/Noj(when he played)/Kaak/me even etc?

The only reason I say pretty much no one knows how to play GW right is because there are a lot of GW players and when people destroy them they just assume things about the match-up. Generally I don't like going off what other people say and I take my own observations from playing characters because I travel a lot and can do that, so you can just take my opinion for what it's worth for you.

I hate how most match-up discussions devolve into trying to figure out a number, rather than going into detail on a match-up and not worrying about the number.

You could think about MU ratios as difficulty levels. And I agree the ratios aren't really THAT important, we should be talking about what Kirby can do to get around G&W instead of reinstating "G&W utterly destroys Kirby", which doesn't teach new players ANYTHING besides "change characters", which shouldn't be a synopsis for a matchup.

I still believe that Kirby doesn't get ***** by G&W. For the record, I'm not saying it's not a hard counter, I'm saying Kirby doesn't get ***** by G&W. I can be persuaded to change my views and shift to a more pessimistic level in the MU discussion, but I won't do so unless I've been given reasons I can agree with, and not just "G&W ***** Kirby, if you beat a G&W they are stupid and dumb". I consider your opinion worth more than A2's current opinion, proof that I can look through both sides of a telescope before deciding which is the side I should be looking through (maybe the telescope has inverted lenses? I dunno, couldn't think of a better analogy).

 

[PentaSalia]

Ok, so....completely useless post. ^^^

WHY <----is what fails to be present in your post. It helps the discussion if you'd present a reason WHY you think we should take GW to FD. Honestly, for all I know it could be a bad GW stage, but not for this MatchUp. It's flat (good for techchasing) it's open (advantageous for aerials such as DAir and FAir) and the blastzones, while they don't hinder, don't help.

YI seems like a good option though...the random ghost can help recovery. the slanting platform allows for some tricks PLUS it helps avoid the DAirs a bit and the slope in the middle seems like it should helps us a bit though lemme test it to see why. My only argument with that stage is the relatively close side blastzones but that helps both Kirby and GW when FSmashing.

EDIT: Two completely post apparently because A2 offers nothing as well.

i thought it was pretty obvious lol
FD=NOplatforms
G&W relies on platforms more than kirby does and on FD, he can't really hide from you.

Yi-the large middle platform messes with most of his approaches if you hide under it


edit:
platforms xD**,i always mix em up lol

 

[camden]

It seems to me that some of you are looking at the players more than the characters themselves. It's supposed to represent the characters at their best, and not whether people are doing so or not...

 

[A2ZOMG]

With this comment, you've cemented the fact that you know nothing. So now that's 4 reasons!

1) You'll never change your mind.
2) You're underrating Kirby.
3) You've played bad Kirbies.
4) You know nothing about top/high-level Kirby play.

If you want to disagree with them, be my guest. And make sure to explain and describe the reasons why I'm wrong about you!

lol nobody likes changing their mind.

Hell no I'm not underrating Kirby. There is a reason he doesn't do anything in tournament besides the fact that only Chu really represents him.

Teba obviously isn't bad if 2 years ago he beat me in the actual matchup. But that was obviously because I sucked at the matchup and because he actually is a good player...

And lol, I've already shown video evidence and explained to death why Kirby beats ROB, and you would be surprised how many times these "bad" Kirby players have beaten my ROB, which has won me matches in tournament. Somewhere back in your matchup thread or video thread I did point out a video of some Japanese players...both who really knew the matchup like extremely well. And guess which player won of course.

I still believe that Kirby doesn't get ***** by G&W. For the record, I'm not saying it's not a hard counter, I'm saying Kirby doesn't get ***** by G&W. I can be persuaded to change my views and shift to a more pessimistic level in the MU discussion, but I won't do so unless I've been given reasons I can agree with, and not just "G&W ***** Kirby, if you beat a G&W they are stupid and dumb". I consider your opinion worth more than A2's current opinion, proof that I can look through both sides of a telescope before deciding which is the side I should be looking through (maybe the telescope has inverted lenses? I dunno, couldn't think of a better analogy).

Lol Hylian's reasons are basically THE SAME AS MINE.

You're just an idiot that has an ego problem. Nothing wrong with that, but that's the truth. I already explained that Kirby clearly doesn't have the tools to do anything safe against G&W, and it's your own fault for being horrible at reading.

I don't expect you to agree with me, but you're pretty much the only one that hasn't contributed ANYTHING to this matchup discussion in response to my points.

 

[WindMajor]

You're just an idiot that has an ego problem.

By the way your acting, this describes you more than Kewkky.

Actually, this doesn't even begin to describe Kewkky.

Just sayin'

 

[Ussi]

So what exactly does Kirby do to a G&W trying to wall him?

I got you keep shielding until he runs out of space, then react according, what would the situations be for reacting accordingly?


Also, while G&W dair might edgeguard kirby well, doesn't he have to be recovering low for that to work?


EDIT: To the post below.... how does that add to the MU discussion..?

 

[Tiersie]

I've played kaak a lot, and recently too.

That is all.

 

[Sage JoWii]

So what exactly does Kirby do to a G&W trying to wall him?

I got you keep shielding until he runs out of space, then react according, what would the situations be for reacting accordingly?


Also, while G&W dair might edgeguard kirby well, doesn't he have to be recovering low for that to work?


EDIT: To the post below.... how does that add to the MU discussion..?

@ the first part- Once GW runs out of room he'll go up and over, in which case you follow and shieldgrab his landing or pursue in the air via a FAir, UAir or even attempt an aerial hammer. It's basically just reading the opponent. The option is shieldgrabbing his last attack or punishing if possible.

Second- Yes, if Kirby recovers high we have a better chance of avoiding GWs edgeguard tactics.

 

[Kewkky]

So what exactly does Kirby do to a G&W trying to wall him?

I got you keep shielding until he runs out of space, then react according, what would the situations be for reacting accordingly?

Well, let's see...

If he goes over you, follow him in the ground and shield when he's about to land, facing him if you can. Once he's close to the ground, if he doesn't attack you or lands behind you, utilt OoS. If he lands in front of you, either grab, bair or ftilt exactly as he lands/hits your shield. If he bairs while landing, hope you followed him well enough so that he's forced to misspace the attack, and ftilt/grab him as soon as the last turtle hit hits your shield. If you're daring and absolutely sure he won't attack while landing, you can also charge a dsmash/fsmash and frametrap him as soon as he lands.

If he tries to go through you, shieldgrab/ftilt/utilt whatever he does. If he tries to grab, either ftilt him away, or move out of his range and retaliate with an ftilt/utilt.

If he jumps offstage just stay on the ground until you see an opening, and bair him as soon as you do so. If he fairs/nairs/bairs and lands, shieldgrab/ftilt/utilt/bair. If he fairs/nairs/bairs and remains offstage and you have time to make it to the ledge, do so because he'll try and grab it. Force him on-stage by taking the ledge away from him, and ledgehop an "invincible" fair as soon as he's above you when he upBs.

If he's grabbing the ledge, then get ready to try to edgehog him. He's not MK, who has theoretically unbeatable planking! You might not be able to hit G&W, but you CAN grab the ledge and force him to miss the sweetspot, thus making him land on-stage and eat a ledgehopped "invincible" fair.


"Invincible" fair, I mean as in when you grab the ledge, you go invincible for a set number of frames. If you jump off before those frames run out, you're still invincible for the remaining frames. You can abuse this by attacking during this moment, usually with a fair or bair depending on your opponent's position, pretty much making you invincible while you start up the chosen attack... Which both aren't slow, either.

Also, while G&W dair might edgeguard kirby well, doesn't he have to be recovering low for that to work?

Yep, we have to be recovering below his maximum jump range for it to work. If we're recovering high (which should be almost always), then don't worry about it as an edgeguard.

If he dairs us offstage, he's forced to recover low. If you evade it, just jump over him and airdodge while landing/bair while landing/upB onto the stage/downB while landing then bair as soon as you transform back/allow him to uair you and just float far into the stage. You could also just get hit by the dair and recover from high at higher-yet-not-killing %s, but consider the safe options before choosing "getting hit", since recovering harmlessly is better than recovering with damage.

 

[Ussi]

If he goes over you, follow him in the ground and shield when he's about to land, facing him if you can. Once he's close to the ground, if he doesn't attack you or lands behind you, utilt OoS. If he lands in front of you, either grab, bair or ftilt exactly as he lands/hits your shield. If he bairs while landing, hope you followed him well enough so that he's forced to misspace the attack, and ftilt/grab him as soon as the last turtle hit hits your shield. If you're daring and absolutely sure he won't attack while landing, you can also charge a dsmash/fsmash and frametrap him as soon as he lands.

Can G&W dair and space the landing so that kirby can't punish it or does that not work on Kirby for being short?

 

[A2ZOMG]

If he B-air cancels, there is no way you're reacting to it if you're trying to confirm shieldstun into an out of shield option.

Yeah as for that ledgehopped F-air...you should probably U-air him, since it's safer in case he DIs out.

What options does Kirby have for stopping G&W from simply running in and dash shield grabbing? He has to either jump, which is massively unsafe since G&W can just fullhop F-air or sometimes SH N-air/U-air to punish that, or Kirby has to spotdodge, which can either be beaten by DA or by G&W's typical aerial spacing strategies or Up-smash. It's also worth noting that G&W has a good Jab that combos into his grab, and it's a better closeup option than most of the stuff Kirby has.

Obviously it sucks a lot when Kirby gets grabbed in this matchup.

And anyhow if you recover high, G&W can just simply opt to go for a juggle, which is just as bad as getting edgeguarded for the most part since Kirby really can't do anything safe to get out of a juggle in this mu.

 

[MikeKirby]

Yeah, jumping head on is a bad idea and as knowledgable Kirbys we all know his mediocre approaches. We rarely just jump in the fray. Kirby can however could bait G&W simply by spacing empty hops. F-air, and B-air's landing lag is very noticable to be punished. N-air, though, I think, auto-cancels just before his land if he does it right. If you do bait G&W and he uses a B-air or F-air Kirby can retaliate with a B-air or U-air. It's also nice to mention that you can SDI out of G&W's B-air and still hit G&W with a Kirby B-air while he is still performing the attack.

 

[MangoAndPals]

And dair offstage is absolutely amazing I can't believe someone laughed at it.

Mmhmm, yeah, um sorry I'm late, but I was wondering: How do you use D-air off-stage? Wouldn't you just fall off? kthx

 

[MikeKirby]

After it was said, I went to training mode and tried it on Battlefield (as G&W). I'm sure there are other ideas rather than just running of stage a D-airing (which is what I did). I found than if he mashes jump he can cancel it just before the blast zone and then Up-B-ing at the peak of his midair jump towards the stage and just barely grabbing the ledge. Like I said though, I just did a simple little test to get an idea of what they were talking about.

 

[Ussi]

are you guys doing slow fall dairs?

Being read can be done by both parties, who is more devatasing when reads are done? How easy is it to get into reading position?

 

[jiovanni007]

gdubs dair is either full hopped or dj'd and uses the downward trajectory to pursue recoveries but kirby can float above him and still get to the ground with little problem. A2 u should calm down, talkin like a dbag on a message board doesn't give you a big **** fyi.

 

[Triple R]

What options does Kirby have for stopping G&W from simply running in and dash shield grabbing?

Are you suggesting that G&W just run, shield, then grab, and kirby can't anything about it?

How about a bigger grab range from kirby himself. Doesn't this apply to all characters really. Most could beat a running shield grab by just pivot grabbing the person attempting to grab.

 

[Hylian]

As far as I can tell many of you are not familiar with GW at all heh.

He edgeguards with dair by slowfalling it. If you fastfall GW's dair it slows it down a considerable amount and just puts a giant slow moving hitbox out to edgeguard with. On top of this you can change the fall speed whenever you want so say if I run off dair I just go fast till I get to them and can slow it down to punish dodges etc. It prevents you from using FC for the most part, I mean it even goes through marths up-b when he's recovering. Full hopped and slowfalled you don't fall very far and can use your second jump to cover all horizontal recovery options that most characters have. GW is pretty much the best character in the game aside from MK at edgeguarding MK(the hardest character in the game to edgeguard obviously) and that is mostly because of dair.

Now you're thinking "well we should be recovering high". No you shouldn't. GW is at his strongest against any character in the game when they are above him. GW controls vertical space far better than any other character due to his massive wind boxes on uair which lead to wasting jumps, frame traps, refreshing moves, combos, kills, etc. And guess what happens after GW gets a hit in? You get sent above him again. The best way to recover against GW is to try to get to the ledge safely. Recovering above the stage and landing on it basically isn't even an option considering how much GW players want you to do that.


Now, for the sake of people not just taking my word for GW beating kirby badly let's compare their movesets etc.

Pretty much all of GW's moves are disjointed and out prioritize and range kirbys moves. GW's bair and dair are very punishable if used as an approach but also very useful if used as a follow-up or frame trap.

Now look at the godly move that is GW's nair. 17% fresh, multiple hitboxes, combos into itself, and beat kirbys entire moveset. Seriously, you can try fsmashing GW's nair while he's facing away from you and you will be hit out of it. It autocancels and is not easy to punish at all. This move alone makes GW very hard to deal with for a good amount of characters(mainly lower tiered ones). You'll find the characters that shut down GW have easy ways to deal with this(MK's fair/upb/nado, Snakes shield into ftilt, motor slide, or just nades, diddys nanas, marths range and oos options, olimars pivot grab).

Aside from that you have dtilt, which hits kirby out of all aerials and can only really be punished by kirby by running powershield which is very telegraphed. This is a good follow up for dthrow as it will sometimes combo even if you tech. Gw's jabs interrupt all of kirbys moves and are great for getting grabs. Gw's fair beats all of kirbys moves in the air/ground and is really good to use OOS because it's guaranteed a lot making it hard to punish. It's also great for edgeguarding with high knockback when sweetspotted.

What does kirby do then? Kirbys zones. That's about it. If the GW is being silly and approching with bair/dair then just grab him all day lol but if they are smart and using bair cancels as approaching with nair/dtilt/crossupbairs etc then you will find yourself having a lot of trouble so you just want to bait moves and punish with bair, or maybe some fast tilts if you get to the ground. Condition for dodges for kills, pay attention to stage control, it doesn't do any good to hit GW with fsmash at 150% if he flys across FD because he will just BB it. After you fthrow uair at low %'s GW will always up-b away and cancel it into a fast fall. This is punishable but if he still has hit jump it's really not since GW can jump after using his up-b. Try to keep a lead and force approches, always doing retreating moves unless you have a guaranteed hit. Don't attack GW's shield unless it's with bair and you are running away after lol.

That's all I have for now I guess.

 

[PentaSalia]

use G&W again you silly IC main;[


you pretty much did a /thread on this though lmao

 

[Hylian]

I am using GW again lol.

 

[Sage JoWii]

@ Hylian- Not in tournament though Mr.Bad-MUs-against-most-tourny viable-characters.

SCREW GW!!! Y'all guys can keep this debate up but @ everyone who wants to help further this MU discussion please discuss neutrals and CPs more.

Large Disadvantage MU btw guys.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Wow, just wow. I really don't know how to counter debate if I see is, "99.9% of Mr. Game & Watch mains are bad". I don't know what to say after that. If nearly every Mr. Game & Watch is bad, then who is good and what kind of Kirby exp did they have? All I can say is I can see Mr. Game & Watch movesets from a mile away, but that won't help if I'm not fighting someone good would it? And now I see Mr. Game & Watch is harder than Meta Knight and just as hard as Ice Climbers?! I'm really stumped, more stumped than the Olimar and ZZS match ups. =/ ☆

☆ As far as stages go, our Neutrals should be Final Destination, and Yoshi's Island. Counter picks should be Jungle Japes, (if that's legal in your tourney), Lylat Cruise, and Pictochat. Stage strike Smashville. Ban Halberd, Brinstar, Norfair, and sadly Rainbow Cruise. )= ☆

 

[Hylian]

I don't think you would be as stumped if you read my post as I explained it pretty well.

 

[jiovanni007]

you pretty much did a /thread on this though lmao

Only because you are in the biased opinion that G-dub ***** this match. Despite the facts that both sides have presented, the G-dub side counters any argument for Kirby with "You never played a good Game and Watch" which is a moot point. Hylian you said you beat Chu before but assuming it was in tournament did you 2-0 the set with two stocks and low percent each time? That's basically what a 7-3 match is when you assume both players are on level playing field.

As far as Kirby's options go you still underestimate the ability of Kirby to zone. He may be a bit sluggish but you can still zone and space no matter what. Don't assume that every Kirby will approach and get punished. Don't assume you can just running shield grab, only scrubs shield camp. Don't assume charged smashes always work because when you charge we always have the option to walk away. Don't always assume that a Kirby player is a scrub that can't SDI nair. Still 60-40 G-dubs in my opinion, but there's no need to be so opinionated. The "You only play fail people" is a pretty lame excuse that everyone uses when they want to win an argument but can't use logic to do so.

 

[Hylian]

Only because you are in the biased opinion that G-dub ***** this match. Despite the facts that both sides have presented, the G-dub side counters any argument for Kirby with "You never played a good Game and Watch" which is a moot point. Hylian you said you beat Chu before but assuming it was in tournament did you 2-0 the set with two stocks and low percent each time? That's basically what a 7-3 match is when you assume both players are on level playing field.

No, 7-3 is basically winning 7 games out of 10. Regardless of that I never said 7-3, or even really put a number on the match-up if you read my posts. I don't like numbers because people always view them differently saying 7-3 instead of 65:35 is kind of arbitrary. Match-up discussions are always subjective and just because you don't agree with what I'm saying doesn't mean that I'm being biased. I gave logical reasons for my beliefs and I haven't been saying "you never played a good GW". I said a lot of GW players are bad, and their are a lot of them because GW is easy to play. That doesn't have anything to do with the match-up it just means that most peoples experience in this match-up will be limited.

As far as Kirby's options go you still underestimate the ability of Kirby to zone. He may be a bit sluggish but you can still zone and space no matter what. Don't assume that every Kirby will approach and get punished. Don't assume you can just running shield grab, only scrubs shield camp. Don't assume charged smashes always work because when you charge we always have the option to walk away. Don't always assume that a Kirby player is a scrub that can't SDI nair. Still 60-40 G-dubs in my opinion, but there's no need to be so opinionated. The "You only play fail people" is a pretty lame excuse that everyone uses when they want to win an argument but can't use logic to do so.

I think you are the one assuming. Every character can zone/space. Every character can camp...actually as I'm looking through this stuff I didn't say any of it really so I'm not sure what you are talking about lol. I like how you associate not being able to sdi nair with being a scrub though when that move is almost impossible to sdi as it sucks you in. I've played pretty much every top player in the nation, and many more after that and none of them have SDI'ed out of it lol. Guess they're all scrubs.

You are the one being opinionated. I'm not using that excuse I actually posted information on the match-up. I've played a lot of kirbys from all over the US because I've traveled a lot. I play kirby myself, and a very good one at that. I have been nothing but logical and I'd really like if you would refute my earlier post rather than replying like this because no one learns anything from posts like these.

 

[jiovanni007]

The GW's you are playing are predictable because they are bad. Really, pretty much every GW is bad save UTD Zac.

This is you saying that most G-dub players are bad, basically meaning that most of us have never played a good G-dub. Considering where you play and where utd zac plays it can be assumed that none of us have whats in your opinion "good" G-dub experience. I mean just saying. The second paragraph wasn't really aimed directly at you though I did use the noun "you" right after referring directly to you in a paragraph. Kinda confusing but I **** plenty *****es so some understand what I say and others don't. "Good" experience or not, good players in general can analyze a moveset and all of its options without actually being "good" with said character. Because of this it is possible to formulate such hypotheses. Also don't try to brush me off because you've never heard of me, I literally only play this game ~twice a month since work/women always take precedence over smash. If I really played as much as most people and went OoS i would be a much more common name.

 

[Hylian]

I really have no idea what you are trying to point out. I posted stuff on that match-up that you can choose to respond to, but you're not. You're just focusing on something I said earlier which was meant to show that a saying a character is "predictable" is kind of a generalization and you should be saying that about people instead. It has nothing to do with the match-up, which is what that was getting at.

I'm also not sure how you think I'm brushing you off.

 

[A2ZOMG]

☆ Wow, just wow. I really don't know how to counter debate if I see is, "99.9% of Mr. Game & Watch mains are bad". I don't know what to say after that. If nearly every Mr. Game & Watch is bad, then who is good and what kind of Kirby exp did they have? All I can say is I can see Mr. Game & Watch movesets from a mile away, but that won't help if I'm not fighting someone good would it? And now I see Mr. Game & Watch is harder than Meta Knight and just as hard as Ice Climbers?! I'm really stumped, more stumped than the Olimar and ZZS match ups. =/ ☆

☆ As far as stages go, our Neutrals should be Final Destination, and Yoshi's Island. Counter picks should be Jungle Japes, (if that's legal in your tourney), Lylat Cruise, and Pictochat. Stage strike Smashville. Ban Halberd, Brinstar, Norfair, and sadly Rainbow Cruise. )= ☆

Dude, you would be surprised at how many G&W mains don't even know you can edgeguard with D-air. It's horrifying, even though it's stuff that I made a topic about over a year ago...

And EVERY ONE OF THESE G&W MAINS also sucks at spacing and mixups because they don't actually invest anything in learning the character or using their head. Believe it or not, there is actual stuff you have to know about using this character competitively, and he is nowhere nearly as predictable and limited as you think.

 

[camden]

So, 62.5:37.5 in GnW's favour???

 

[Kewkky]

More along the lines of 62.3:37.7...

 

[Sage JoWii]

Y'all are throwing out ratios but we aren't going to be using ratios...>_> It's a large disadvantage matchup.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Looking forward to the writeup. The stages I said should be of help. ☆

 

[camden]

I know ratios aren't everything, they just help bring everything together.

Maybe we should just ditch ratios all together like some of the other boards, and just use general stuff to underline the match-ups. -_-

 

[Sage JoWii]

Um cadmen....>_> we did.....I talked about it in the matchup directory