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Match-up discussion week 33: Link

#HBC | ZoZo

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Only 2 match-ups left after this, Ganon and Cpt Falcon. We can just pull some ratios here and leave them and go straight ahead to re-discussing?

As samus motivationals are too suggestive, I didn't post them last time, so I'll post DOUBLE to make it up.





Discuss
 

Teran

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Fire lasers, CG > Spike.

Camp camp camp. Laser laser laser.
Link is pretty much utterly defenceless. His projectiles are pretty much obselete when he's bombarded with lasers coupled with the fact that we can SHDL > Shine in case a projectile gets through.

He has a sword, but apart from his Dsmash, his moves are pretty laggy. He can DACUS, but his Usmash is just a damage dealer, which is pretty laggy, and can be SDI'd. He won't be getting KOs from it.

We however, have the sexy boost smash.

If he goes offstage, which is pretty likely, he's screwed. If he's being camped against, he's screwed. If he finds out that his opponent is Falco, he's ultimately competely and utterly, beyond a shadow of a doubt, SCREWED.

80:20, the Hero of Time doesn't stand a chance against modern technology.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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First off this is 70:30 Falco.

Fire lasers, CG > Spike.
Lazers + Shine will lock Link down.

CG > Spike won't work if we tech the ledge, save our second jump, or meteor cancel it.

Link could bomb himselves to 40% if he really wanted to avoid the CG, I advice against this tactic personally as it does he work for you damage wise.

Camp camp camp. Laser laser laser.
As Falco should. :)

Link is pretty much utterly defenceless. His projectiles are pretty much obselete when he's bombarded with lasers coupled with the fact that we can SHDL > Shine in case a projectile gets through.
He isn't defenseless.

Z-air works on Falco. If you shine, which outranges Z-air by the way, Link can shield and punish.

Arrows and bombs are the only things that might be able to arc over shine and hit Falco. Reflected boomerangs aren't that threatening.

Even though Link has to approach, he's still going to fire off his own stuff.

He has a sword, but apart from his Dsmash, his moves are pretty laggy. He can DACUS, but his Usmash is just a damage dealer, which is pretty laggy, and can be SDI'd. He won't be getting KOs from it.
They have range despite the lag. Still doesn't make up for the lazer lazer lazer camp camp camp nom nom nom.

His DACUS is a seldomly used move, it's not like Snake's where he can use it without much fear. If Link is going to kill Falco it's going to be from Dsmash, Fsmash, Utilt, Ftilt, or Dair.

If he goes offstage, which is pretty likely, he's screwed. If he's being camped against, he's screwed. If he finds out that his opponent is Falco, he's ultimately competely and utterly, beyond a shadow of a doubt, SCREWED.
An offstage Link is not a happy Link if his opponent is on stage. Falco will outcamp Link, Falco along with DeDeDe are his worst match-ups.

Don't go the Norfair or Brinstar. Stick to FD or Smashville.
 

Marcbri

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Iirc Link can't get spiked after a cg, he only needs to fast fall and zair the ledge after the last throw. I think he can escape the spike with this, but I'm not 100% sure.

Link can be annoying at times, jab cancels especially, we just need to jab before to avoid his. Still he can deal a lot of damage with it so it's better to stay off range, camp, throw of the ledge and gimp.

around 7-3 for Falco. As long as you get the gimps ( that are mad easy to get) falco will beat link consistently, if he doesn't get gimped ( unlikely) it may be a bit more hard but since Link has a lot of laggy attacks it's still easy to hit him with an Upsmash or other K.O. moves.
 
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I recall having a link do that to me from time to time of escaping the CG with Zair. My solution I had been thinking of doing was to just fall down and Bair them after the Dair ends. I think they might still be in the animation of reeling into the ledge that Bair will connect leading to a stage spike. Can link grab onto the ledges like the ones on Delfino Plaza or halberd? If not then you know a stage to use against him to get CG > spike to work.
 

Lawz.

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I'd go with a solid 70:30 on this.

Falco easily outcamps Link in this, Falco just shuts down Link's spam game. Now Link being as heavy as he is, he gets CGd by Falco to roughly 60% I'd say through the full CG to gatling combo plus a possible follow up. But the Link will have a bomb the majority of the match so he can have a chance to get out of the CG, the CG to spike can work but with DI it can be avoided. But basically Link will always be approaching in this match without a doubt.

While Link's zair has great range, like Red Ryu said it gets outranged and is slower than Falco's reflector. Falco wins at long range like I went over, but Falco also wins at close range. This is basically because of Falco's amazing jab (which is like 2 frames or something like that) and he has tilts that also beat Link.

The player using Link (god be with him) will be staying at mid range for the match so that he can keep away from Falco's jabs and tilts but also to avoid getting spammed too much.

Now while Link is pretty easily gimpable, so is Falco. When Falco is forced to upb, Link can grab the edge and is able to zedge. This is basically Link being able to back off the ledge and immediately regrab the ledge with zair in order to keep invincibility frames.

Falco also does a good job in the air due to better air speed and auto cancelling aerials.

Overall:

-Falco outcamps Link
-Beats Link at close range
-Is much faster in the air
-Can gimp Link
-Can get 60% or more from a single grab due to CG to gatling combo
 

GreyClover

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70:30 maybe even 75:25.

lol no one outcamps Falco, not us, not anyone. Your chaingrab affects us badly we're just lucky that our bombs, weather holding to them and it explodes while you guys are CG'ing or bombing ourselves to 45% helps ease the matchup a little. If you did mange to successfully fully CG us than kudos to you, just note that a decent Link should be able to aviod getting killed by your spike. We can meteor cancel it by slamming UpB and we can DI towards the stage and tech the ledge or sometimes just land onto the stage itself. Close range is some where no Link whats to get in, jab, tilt, smash do anything will punish Link badly. Your shine also outranges our Zair. You also don't want to be too far either since lazors are just hell. Like Lawz said mid range is where it's actually safe for Link, anywhere else ***** him.

This is no doubt one of your easiest matches and one of Link's hardest. And it's not my favorite either.
 

WaterTails

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Your shine also outranges our Zair.
Does it really? I'm pretty sure I've gotten Zair'D through the shine before.

Also, maybe (Read: definitely) I'm awful at Brawl, but can't Link get some decent bomb, Zair, boomerang "combos" on Falco?
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Does it really? I'm pretty sure I've gotten Zair'D through the shine before.

Also, maybe (Read: definitely) I'm awful at Brawl, but can't Link get some decent bomb, Zair, boomerang "combos" on Falco?
It might have been at start-up before the hurt box hit Link.

But yeah, reflector outranges Zair.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Stages are the only thing to really discuss.

If Norfair is legal always ban that, same thing with Brinstar. Some Link's like Rainbow Cruise but I don't know how affective it would be since I've never taken or been taken there.
 

Lawz.

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Stages are the only thing to really discuss.

If Norfair is legal always ban that, same thing with Brinstar. Some Link's like Rainbow Cruise but I don't know how affective it would be since I've never taken or been taken there.
Battlefield is another stage that Link should take Falco to. Mainly because he can get around Falco's spam a bit easier.
 

Teran

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Battlefield doesn't help at all unless you go to the top platform.
Falco can still laser you perfectly on the lower platform. There is no escape. BF is actually an excellent Falco stage and a really bad place to take him to.
 

Lawz.

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People say that about Battlefield a lot but it's a grave underestimation of Falco's spam.
I never said he could escape it entirely at all, notice I said a bit. I'm just saying that's probably Link's best neutral to take him.
 

Denzi

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I never said he could escape it entirely at all, notice I said a bit. I'm just saying that's probably Link's best neutral to take him.
You might have a better shot on Smashville, most Falcos LOVE bf. I dunno how Link does on Lylat, but we suck there.
 

Teran

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I think Yoshi's Island is pretty sucky for Falco, but that's just me.
 

MetalMusicMan

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Personally I play Legan all of the time and I don't think that this matchup is 70:30 at all, I think it's closer to even than most people realize because they have never played a good Link-- although Legan might disagree with me... I'm not speaking on his behalf, I'm speaking from my own experience playing against pretty much the best Link out there.

Most of our matches are very close and almost always come down to the last stock with both of us at high percentages.

Yeah, Falco can reflect everything that Link can do, but if Link plays his midrange game right, he can easily Z-air (which can't be reflected) or punish a reflect because of the lag from Falco's reflector animation.

Laser spam is usually effective, but again at the medium range, he can usually get a z-air off or throw a bomb, often before you can get your reflector out.

The chain grab isn't even an issue-- not only will you rarely 0-death a good Link even if you grab him from 0, but he can just blow himself up with bombs and avoid the CG completely. Once he avoids it, Link can kill you a lot sooner than you can kill him. He has plenty of kill power from f-smash, down air, and reliable kill setups, like bomb to footstool to down air, while Falco has almost no reliable kill setups to speak of.

It's kind of like when everyone thought Falco ***** Snake... then good snakes just started grenade holding until 50% and easily made up the damage and killed earlier because they have better kill power. It's the same thing, just that Link is no where near as good as Snake, lol... but it's the same idea with the CG on Link only less so.

Killing Link can be very difficult for Falco, because he is heavy and has stellar DI. In addition, Link's down air will stop you from ever really using Falco's up-air to kill him-- you can bait a d-air and punish with a Falco b-air from the side, though will cause your b-air to stale a bit.

Gimping Link with Falco isn't especially easy either-- it's not hard, but it's not like everyone says "lawl Link's recovery, get *****" etc. He can easily throw the gale upwards while he recovers, then do his up-b, preventing you from gimping him most of the time.

Link can actually gimp Falco very easily in certain scenarios, because he can Z-air the ledge if he ever forces you into using Falco's Up-B. The 3 ledge grabs he gets from z-air give Link a long time to ledge hog, and Falco will not be able to recover if he is forced to use Up-B.



In the end, I guess it doesn't matter because 95% of Link players you meet are going to suck... but personally I don't think we should be rating the matchup for the bottom of the metagame, we should be rating it for the top of the metagame.


So, with that in mind, I would put this around 60:40 in Falco's favor if the Link is a good player. If the Link is a noob and can't recover or space or do any of Link's required ATs, then yeah, it's at least 75:25 because you will just spike him and he won't know how to recover.


...just my thoughts from playing the best Link out there at least once a week and teams with him at every tournament... I think most people will think I'm ******** though, lol.

Ooh, I can't wait until I argue that DeDeDe vs Link is scarcely worse than 50:50 in the DeDeDe thread... that's going to be a fun one, lmfao.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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MmM, thanks for the input.

Although I don't mean to disrespect, I think that it might be more in our advantage. Legan is the top of current Link meta-game, and it would give your post alot more credit if you could prove that you are equally advanced. 'Till then I'm gonna say that a Falco like DEHF might wreck a lot more against a Link.
Again, if you are legit I apologize for doubting your skill.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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So, with that in mind, I would put this around 60:40 in Falco's favor if the Link is a good player. If the Link is a noob and can't recover or space or do any of Link's required ATs, then yeah, it's at least 75:25 because you will just spike him and he won't know how to recover.
I still think it's worse and want to stick with 70:30; however you have a very good understanding of the match-up.

...just my thoughts from playing the best Link out there at least once a week and teams with him at every tournament... I think most people will think I'm ******** though, lol.
I don't think your ******** at all for this.

Ooh, I can't wait until I argue that DeDeDe vs Link is scarcely worse than 50:50 in the DeDeDe thread... that's going to be a fun one, lmfao.
I'll help if you do.
 

MetalMusicMan

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MmM, thanks for the input.

Although I don't mean to disrespect, I think that it might be more in our advantage. Legan is the top of current Link meta-game, and it would give your post alot more credit if you could prove that you are equally advanced. 'Till then I'm gonna say that a Falco like DEHF might wreck a lot more against a Link.
Again, if you are legit I apologize for doubting your skill.
No disrespect taken, sir.

Well I'm definitely not as good as DEHF or Sethlon or anyone like that, but I am the best DeDeDe and Falco in Missouri, as far as I know, and certainly among the best in the MW... however, the Midwest metagame is definitely the farthest behind of all the regions (and Missouri likely one of the lowest in the MW...), so that probably makes me sound a lot better than I really am... I'm not "pro" or anything, but I'm probably the most "pro" person in St. Louis besides Legan and Thinkaman and a few others... again, that's not saying a whole lot though, hahaha.

So yeah, I'm good and one of the best people in my area. No, I'm not a superstar.

www.youtube.com/MetalMusicMan04 if you want to browse random stuff... most of it's a bit old though.

Anyway, you all make really valid points, I'm not going to complain regardless of what the numbers end up being-- I just figured it would be good to have input from someone who knows the Link matchup, because I know that a lot of people don't have actual experience with it. ...I think the common thought though is that you don't need experience, but if you ever fight a good Link, it might make you change your mind :p

Just trying to help, not making a fuss :)

I still think it's worse and want to stick with 70:30; however you have a very good understanding of the match-up.
Perfectly understandable

I'll help if you do.
Haha, excellent.
 

TheReflexWonder

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I get my **** wrecked by Kismet when I attempt to use Link against his Falco.

I've won before, but it involves lots of mistakes on Falco's part, as well as lots and lots of camping on Link's part. I'd say that this is no harder than 65-35 for Falco, although it's probably worse.
 

Anaky

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IMO 70:30 in Falco's Favour. Falco outcamps Link and Link is easily Gimped whoch does shut him down completly, unless the Link plays on norfair or something like that hes gonna eb utterly useless, thats why i wouldnt say its a **** matchup.
 

mars16

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I think Falco could defeat Link becauses he has better recovery, his dash speed may be slow but his attacks are fast and he has great projectile and yea Link can reflect using his Side B but Falco can reflect to.
 
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