Match-up Discussion: Ike | The Sword of Asia

[Kuares]

Alright so, since we haven't really been doing much lately it so who got's an idea for a match-up to discuss. I'm thinking Ike. Also the matchup thread needs to be reorganized again but I always say this.


Let's try doing this match-up discussion alittle differently and first just get questions and then answer them later. Going first off into discussion doesn't seem to work the greatest.


How are you supposed to edgegaurd against aether?

 

[crifer]

How are you supposed to edgegaurd against aether?

If he recovers a little bit too high you can usmash him. edgehog can be risky, but worth it.

 

[M@v]

alright, I'll have a big writeup inbound tomorrow. My practice partner(also my best friend and doubles partner) is an ike main, in addition to another ike main in my crew, so I've played this matchup a lot, to say the least >_>

 

[san.]

You can't hit Ike's aether with usmash if he retreats it away. That is a myth that needs to end. It puts us on our toes because fox is fast enough to try to grab the edge if we didn't guard it properly, though. If Fox grabs the edge right before the spinning sword comes, you can bair or shine us while rising. Or wait for us to aether onstage and get up and usmash.

I first thought fox had the advantage. He is quick and has combo potential.

However, fox is very easy to jab, and very easy to continue jabbing, and it makes Fox's kill moves and some others very hard to land. Fox gets outranged in general, but fox can get in pretty quickly on the ground. It's probably not wise to attack ike from the air too often.

Both can harass each other offstage. If fox wants to go offstage, watch out for aether, because if you get caught underneath the stage, that's an instant KO pretty much. Fox probably wants to stay onstage. We can also jab sideB. Jab doesn't make us commit as much so shine stall is somewhat difficult if you don't have your double jump handy.

Ike can fair your offstage mixups, making it much harder to get back. Do NOT rising fair offstage. That is a very easy hit for us, and very dangerous for you, even at 60-70%.

In the end, the MU isn't very difficult for Ike. I would probably call it even. I played NAKAT and Ozz's Foxes, but they didn't have much Ike exp. I feel that if they did, our matches would be much more even. There's also Zeton and Mr. Doom, Mav and Berserker Swordsman(Colaya? o_O), etc. Manageable for both sides imo.

 

[M@v]

San I'll have to play you with my fox sometime since I got MU experience. Want to see how I do.

 

[Ussi]

I'll mention bthrow > dash attack sets up edgeguarding. With jab, we can get grabs as a follow up.

Fox's way to get Ike offstage?

 

[Mr. Doom]

Three words: Fox hates jab.

And... I don't know the fox match-up. I know only the Zeton Match-up...

 

[Kuares]

Zeton's got a weird playstyle yo.


This Matchup is pretty much where I see the most Fox's getting hit out of rising fair, because they always move forward and it's obvious. Ike can just swing Ragnell in that direction an it'll hit. I'm guessing that if a fox would rising fair away then that'd work out alot better for him.

As for edgegaurding Ike, safest is to just stay put because non of fox's edgegaurding tools have enough range to work for this.

Pretty much Fox's safezones from Ike are far distances, below him and maybe above him on a platform(how good is Ike's platform pressure?). If Fox approaches from above he'll probably end up being pivot grabbed, and if he approaches straight he'll probably be jab'd and stuff.

What I'd end up doing is get a grab in by baiting approaches by standing mid range, try to get a grab to upthrow somewhere and play the get back on the ground game for a while. What'd an Ike try to do to try and land then? Basically normal character things like airdodge, drifting mix-up, get to the edge or does Ike have something that helps with this(doubt Eruption helps much)?

 

[san.]

Ike is good at platform pressure, especially when the opponent is landing on a platform.

If you're landing on a platform, Uair is guaranteed to hit, pretty much.

Our upsmash covers some entire platforms like BF.

Uair can shield poke and severely pushes your shield. We can also use nair, bair, or utilt.
If you happen to edgeslip after any of our moves, it's a guaranteed jab. Edgeslip from nair or bair might lead to upsmash.

1 thing to note: If Ike misses an aerial like fair, you can punish the lag. Retreating nair is much harder. That's why Ike will be hesitant to use fair as a spacing tool too much unless you're in the air. Both characters will be playing bait and punish.

Ike will try to do retreating nair to land, or maybe fast fall air dodge, and time a double jump as needed.

About Ike's pivot grab, it has high reach above him and lasts LONG
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgYcqaELsXw&t=2m20s

If fox is in the air, we would try to bait your horizontal spacing due to Fox's slow horizontal speed, or safely harass him from afar with fair or bair.

 

[Conviction]

I don't know anything about this MU so I might as well ask questions. (Also i'm going to make Ike next one the list for Project ARWING so we can see how we can/can't punish him, San your input and maybe something you will like to add would be helpful)

So what move do Ikes like to buffer if they misspace a move to cover themselves? How is Ike's traction? I'm guessing you would know, is Ike's grab range longer than Fox's? (Non-pivoted). Exactly how fast is Ike's pivot grab? What stages do you recommend to ban,strike for neutrals,and CP?

I'll wait until you answer before I ask anymore questions

 

[san.]

I'll answer some off the top of my head, others will have to wait since it's kind of late right now.

If we misspace a move, we can try a few things
-Jab- Obvious
-Retreating bair- if the latter half of the sword hits your shield, I don't think you can punish, but if you shield when we're really close, you can.
-Dash away - short, quick dash and shield comes up very fast
-Jump away- can mix up with other aerials like nair if you give chase

Ike has the 5th lowest traction, slightly more than squirtle and yoshi. This gives Ike a good dash shield and some other things.

I'm not exactly sure about the grab range, and if it beats foxes. Ike never wants to dash grab. He would dash, and shield cancel standing grab. Ike's pivot grab is best for aerial landings since as stated before, has a decent range above him and lasting grab hitbox.

Ike's standing grab is 7 frames, pivot grab 9 frames, dash grab is even slower.

You probably want to take Ike to FD, maaybe halberd. Be aware that Ike may kill earlier than you if you let him. Strike BF, Lylat first, maybe YI. You want to take Ike to SV or FD. Ike wants to take you to BF or Lylat. PS1 is neutralish for both, I believe.

Not sure what stages fox doesn't like. Ike likes Delfino, BF, Brinstar, Lylat, PS1, and he doesn't mind most other stages.

 

[Kuares]

Fox also doesn't do bad on any particular stage as well. Many fox's have problems with LC so I'll just say most'll strike it first. Most Fox counterpicks I've seen have been FD BF SV and HB. Blue ones I think are dumb but that's me.

Stage striking using that 5 stages:
If Ike gets first he'd get the choice of SV or YI
If Fox gets first he'd get between BF or YI
(Ike striking FD->SV, Fox striking LC->BF)

For counterpicking, yeah Fox'll want to go FD, so you can probably ban that. At which point, if the fox doesn't know their stages usually it's SV/Halberd.

Personally, I'd think he'd do better on PS1/2 since it's got more space to zone and it's platform layout doesn't stop fox as much as Halberd. That and if Ike does wait under a platform waiting for Fox to fall on it, Fox has a escape by illusioning onto the platform on the other side. I always think Brinstar is a good stage. As for ones up in the air RC, FO, YI and CS I wouldn't know who would have the advantage.


What's Ike's main CP of choice, and if it were banned, what'd follow up?

 

[Rizk18]

This MU I used to think was easy. It's really not, I would say 50-50 from my perspective. If you go BF in this MU I would say it's Ike's favor definatley. Same goes for Fox with FD. But probably just 55-45 for both of them on their best stages. I really don't know what to say at this MU because I rarely get it, but I will say this: Jab is a mother f***ing b***h in this MU lol. It's just so good and the ability to cancel them into more jabs just gets annoying for me. Even with DI. I try to go behind Ike when he does this because his jab has decent range and if you try retreating it will be harder to get out of so I just try DI'ing behind him. 50-50 anyone?

Edit: Since we're rediscussing this why not delete the old one in the "Trust your Instincts" thread and add this one to the Ike picture. I really feel we should do this for all of them because it's just a lot easier to locate them. Whoever is in charge of that thread should do so. We also have DK,Kirby,Sonic, and Lucario waiting to be added to that thread and put into their own pictures with clickable links. Pretty sure those MU's are done on the Fox forums.

 

[Berserker Swordsman]

Do NOT rising fair offstage. That is a very easy hit for us, and very dangerous for you, even at 60-70%.

M@v, write this down.

 

[Ussi]

Main CP: Lylat then BF.. Then its personal preference usually after that

 

[Conviction]

How does control the stage? Also I'm wondering, how is ike in regards in vertical spacing? Do you think fox can sh over ftilt if it isn't angled? Also I think I messed around a little yesterday and crouched under ikes bair, would crouching whiff a rising bair?

 

[san.]

Ike controls the stage simply through spacing aerials and stage traversal.

Vertical spacing: Nair. Uair has too much lag to be effective. We want to try to space horizontally whenever possible.

Ike wouldn't really use ftilt in this MU except for a very situational mixup, but you probably can't, unless you get close enough to jump before the hitbox comes out.

Ike's rising bair is low enough to hit MK at times. I'm not sure how tiny crouched fox is. It would probably be easier to just shield.