Match-up discussion #20: Fox

[§witch]

They're exactly the same as the points you made, no proof to back it up at all. And now, I have proof. fox has more killing options, he refreshes a million times bteter than wolf, and his best killing option (usmash) KOs better than wolf's dsmash, by a small margin mind you, but still by more. The other ones I either agreed with you, or just fixed up here.

 

[Duo55]

Sorry but this is complete BS. No Wolf will ever have to spam dsmash.
Obviously, you do not know very much about Wolf, otherwise you wouldn't talk like that.
You ignore many facts: Wolf is faster in battle, Wolf KOs Fox earlier, Wolf wins in range, Wolf wins in priority, Wolf wins in the air and on the ground.

Seriously 60:40 isn't too much asked and since when does that imply anything else than a slight advantage?

The only ignorant one here, is you. Its quite apparent that you didn't understand what context I was using the word "spam" in. I'm not talking about using the same move over and over, I talking about using it frequently to get the fox away from wolf, so he can reset his areial spacing, or gain enough distance to use the laser. Maybe if you would step out of noobville for one second, and realize that we're (everyone but you) talking about a match between a well versed, highly experienced wolf, and equally skilled Fox, then you would understand half the situations being explaned. The way you talk, you act as if the fox is going to fall for every little trick you have, but the wolf will just "see that pathetic mind game coming". Sorry, it ain't gonna happen like that. Not to mention, you say that I ignore the facts? No. As a matter of fact, I said wolf has the advantage impo. If anyone knows about this match up here, its me. I fight a tallented (and by tallented, I mean he knows his character quite well, and knows exactly how to deal with each matchup) wolf on a daily basis. Where are you getting your analisis from? Some sucky fox you beat down two months ago? ( all my analisis are accurate to offline play, not online) and please don't say your exp. is online only (yes I'm assuming, forgive me if its incorrect)... everyone knows wolf is five times the character online that he off. I will agree with some of the stuff you said, but then you go and spout something that is complete crap like a fresh D-smash kills Fox a 90%???? Thats highly situational, and is not worth mentioning. You say that wolf wins in the air, and the ground? No. No he doesnt. This part of the match up is so close that its left to the strategy position (ie whos on the offensive, and whos on the defensive {this will change MANY times durring this matchup}), and the skills of the players. Like, Fox will have a tuff time breaking through a wolf thats on a areial rampage (assuming there lagless and spaced correctly, and by using the laser, d-smash and Reflector at the appropriate times) . While wolf will have trouble getting a Furious Fox player off of him (one thats FFNing, shield grabbing, shine stalling, spacing well, and of course using the drill combos, and the U-tilt lock effectively) really the one on the defence the longest will lose this fight, assuming the skill level is even. I rest my case/ O'donnel 55/45 McCloud

 

[-Mars-]

Ahhh I love good discussion like this, even if i'm the one being the most highly criticized.......you guys did not disappoint. By the time we're through no matter what both sides agree on, I really do think we will have this matchup down.

Not to mention, Fox vs. Wolf is one of the most enjoyable matches you can play in Brawl if your a main of either character.

There is so many points made, i'm not even going to attampt to respond to them, I will say I have been enlightened somewhat by you Wolf mains.

I will say this though, I really think most of you are underestimating Foxs' recovery. Wolf can not take the risk of attemting to gimp Fox, the shine creates too many variables.

 

[Chaco]

I've played Duo, and Mitsu. Fox vs Wolf. Mitsu normally wins in those matches. But they are equal.

60:40 Wolf

 

[M@v]

I firmly believe this is 50-50 even. In fact, I believe fox and wolf should be right to each other on the tier list. Anyway, general rule of thumb: Fox has a better airgame, wolf has a better groundgame. Fox's recovery is vastly superior, and on FD, this matchup is actually in fox's favor, because wolf gets #$@#ed by the sides of the stage. Fox should just mix it up. Wolf wins the spamming battle, but he has to be close to put pressure on fox. Fox can pepper him from a distance, but has to worry about being hit by his own blaster, smething wolf doesnt have to think about. Priority is even here. Fox is better off stage and in the air, wolf is better on the ground. Both can edgeguard the other well here. This fight goes to the better player.

 

[teekay]

Now for approach options let's see........Wolf has bair and a lagless fair, while Fox has fair(I believe it has more priority than Wolfs bair),

Utilt is going to outspeed about anything you have besides your Jab, and it outprioritizes that.

I worry about comments like this.

The whole concept of "priority" is really misunderstood. None of the moves you mentioned here have any more or less priority than any of the others.

Almost everything can clink. What's important is timing, not a move's "priority." Range and hitbox size have a lot to do with it, but there is no magical strength level that makes some moves go through some others. Disjointed hitboxes often go "through" attacks but even this is really illusory, these attacks can still clink with non disjointed ones.

I just think it's a little absurd that you are rudely claiming to have chuckled at someone's post when you don't even understand how priority works in this game. Admittedly it's probably not your fault since the misunderstanding is so widespread, but still, you are just coming off as kind of cocky.

Fox combos the h*** out of Wolf. He falls so fast, all we need is one utilt and your down 50%. Dair isn't that hard to land, shine stall mindgames easily lead to a dair or one mistake by you and one dair later it's another 30%. Once we get to 70%, dair starts to combo into dsmash and this is a nightmare for Wolf.

This is also untrue. Fox does not have any combos out of his dair, only very fast transitions between moves. The dsmash can always be shielded. This isn't a nightmare for anyone, except maybe a Fox player who thinks it will work.

That's all I'm going to comment on for now. Overall I think the match is close. I'm inclined to agree it's in Wolf's favor, but I haven't had enough experience against Fox to say with any confidence so I'm not going to claim anything.

 

[Duo55]

I worry about comments like this.

The whole concept of "priority" is really misunderstood. None of the moves you mentioned here have any more or less priority than any of the others.

Almost everything can clink. What's important is timing, not a move's "priority." Range and hitbox size have a lot to do with it, but there is no magical strength level that makes some moves go through some others. Disjointed hitboxes often go "through" attacks but even this is really illusory, these attacks can still clink with non disjointed ones.

I just think it's a little absurd that you are rudely claiming to have chuckled at someone's post when you don't even understand how priority works in this game. Admittedly it's probably not your fault since the misunderstanding is so widespread, but still, you are just coming off as kind of cocky.




This is also untrue. Fox does not have any combos out of his dair, only very fast transitions between moves. The dsmash can always be shielded. This isn't a nightmare for anyone, except maybe a Fox player who thinks it will work.

That's all I'm going to comment on for now. Overall I think the match is close. I'm inclined to agree it's in Wolf's favor, but I haven't had enough experience against Fox to say with any confidence so I'm not going to claim anything.

See buddy, funny thing is, arieal don't clank which are the only type of attacks marsulas listed. Priority, and or range rule the skys. Priority is affected, by disjointed hit boxs, or % diferences, and is indeed a big factor in brawl. Don't get me wrong, timing is important, but priority is there, and is also important.

 

[-Mars-]

I worry about comments like this.

The whole concept of "priority" is really misunderstood. None of the moves you mentioned here have any more or less priority than any of the others.

Almost everything can clink. What's important is timing, not a move's "priority." Range and hitbox size have a lot to do with it, but there is no magical strength level that makes some moves go through some others. Disjointed hitboxes often go "through" attacks but even this is really illusory, these attacks can still clink with non disjointed ones.

I just think it's a little absurd that you are rudely claiming to have chuckled at someone's post when you don't even understand how priority works in this game. Admittedly it's probably not your fault since the misunderstanding is so widespread, but still, you are just coming off as kind of cocky.


If you actually read the post in which I "chuckled", the person I was chuckling at was talking about how Fox couldn't gimp Wolf..........it had nothing to do with priority so I don't know what your talking about.

I know bair has more range than Foxs' fair and is disjointed, priority does play a part though you can't deny that.

This is also untrue. Fox does not have any combos out of his dair, only very fast transitions between moves. The dsmash can always be shielded. This isn't a nightmare for anyone, except maybe a Fox player who thinks it will work.

That's all I'm going to comment on for now. Overall I think the match is close. I'm inclined to agree it's in Wolf's favor, but I haven't had enough experience against Fox to say with any confidence so I'm not going to claim anything.

As I mentioned earlier, Dair is used for punishing and yes it does combo if it's not shielded. Dair to utilt is a combo and utilt itself will juggle Wolf for a while.

Dair can make you trip at higher percentages and there is nothing you can do, I don't think you really understand the mechanics of the move that well.

After listening to other poster's opinions on the matchup, I have been swayed into believing it just might be in Wolfs' favor. The only reason I came across as cocky is because it is absurd to believe that Wolf has an advantage offstage. Onstage.......yes, offstage.......NO.

 

[snadmonkey]

Wolf > Fox. Stay in the air and never underneath fox, congrats you win. Fox can't even come close to besting the wolf wall in the air. Really as long as you stay from underneath him, fox doesn't have all that much. Sure he has some ok tacts and moves to get at, but wolf's are better. Foxes recovery is just as bad as wolf's, can bair stage spike his up B if he's below, and not hard to stop his side b or up b from side. lasers are kinda irrelevant in the battle honestly, at least between 2 good players, only difference is that wolf can semi approach with this. Just don't be fooled by mid air shine tricks of fox, try and stay about the top of his head, so even if he shines as u come at him with an aerial, you'll still land. Without his best tact wolf should be able to win out.

 

[chaos_Leader]

Whats the deal here? Both the Fox players and Wolf players need to cool it, all flame wars have ever made is hot air, nothing constructive.

Look, I use both Fox and Wolf at roughly equal levels, I can give you the good the bad and the ugly of both.

On Approaching


Both have reflectors, and both have spamable lasers, Its a stalemate. Whoever is the least patient will be the one approaching.

Wolf approach-
Out of the two, Wolf is best suited for a direct approach. Lagless F-airs, B-air, (N-air if they let you get away with it) boost-smashing works great if you've got the fingers for it. and others. Wolf can jump right it and cause a lot of trouble real fast.

Now Fox is well equipped to handle mosts oncoming opponents for most of the reasons stated above. so in this instance, neither side has major advantages or disadvantages.

Fox approach-
Most Fox's will opt for the indirect approach. Fox's main approach involves feint direct approaches to bait a response and subsequently punish the response. Fox's game does hit a little snag from Wolf's laser, it can be reflected, yet hardly ever makes it back to Wolf. Personally, I usually shield Wolf's laser or maneuver around it. its much harder to punish Fox out of a shield than a shine. It takes different tactics to approach Wolf

I'll give this instance a favor to Wolf since Fox's usual techniques are muffled and Wolf is playing on home turf here.


Building the Damage

Both Fox and Wolf are well equipped here.

Fox can string together a lot of moves and shoot the damage meter up pretty quick, plus Fox only needs the slightest of openings to exploit. Wolf can trump this in several instances with his reflector, it has invincibility frames and gets Fox out of his face, the follow-up moves can be avoided which brings us back to square #1.

Wolf has absolutely devastating moves when it comes to damage. he can be openly aggressive where most others would have to back off. Many of Wolf's moves do have substantial lag afterward and can be risky to use, but the payoff comes when Fox's damage skyrockets with relatively few moves.

Both are evenly matched here, neither has a clear advantage or disadvantage.


Edge-Game

As a Fox and Wolf main, I will tell you right off the bat that I am far more comfortable over the edge with Fox than with Wolf. That is not to say Wolf is bad over the edge.

Wolf's B-air works wonders over the edge, it works for gimping, killing, and I've seen it combo into spikes and more B-airs. The Spike itself is devastating if you can pull it off. Particularly good Wolf players can use the Wolf-Flash to its extent with meteor smashing and everything. Wolf is very dangerous over the edge and should never be taken for granted.

Fox does have the ever popular shine-spike, N-air which causes more problems than it's given credit fore, D-air works well to drag down Wolf and finish with a shine-spike. then there's Fox's B-air. In my experience, it works exactly like a spike turned sideways, the timing is similar, the situations to use it are similar and the outcome is also very similar.

Wolf's recovery, It's a mixed bag. It'll go far enough, trouble is, Wolf looses all of his famous mid-air momentum once he's done, and he has a much smaller sweet-spot to grab the edge with. You have to be extremely careful over the edge with Wolf. Wolf can do some pretty nifty things with Flash, but only on a select few stages.

Fox's recovery is where Fox wins out here. Both illusion and FireFox go very far and Fox still retains his meager aerial momentum and generous sweet-spot for edge-grabbing. the F-air (aka Fox-Copter) will help Fox immensely if Wolf didn't knock out the 2nd jump. all these alone aren't enough, However Fox has the luxury of being able to vary his recovery with the use of shine-stalling, and other maneuvers.


The Kill
Both Wolf and Fox are ridiculously dangerous here, Wolf need only use the D-smash near the edge and the Fox is dead. Fox needs only for Wolf to make one mistake to stick a running U-Smash. Even if the Fox U-smash doesn't have the reach of Wolf's D-smash, the U-smash makes up any lost ground when coming out of a dash. In a pinch, where the damage has continued climbing and the opponent isn't dead, both have alternate options. Wolf has U-tilt, works better than U-smash in most cases since it comes out quick. Fox has D-smash which knocks Wolf off the edge at a low angle, which is dangerous territory for Wolf if the smash doesn't kill you first.

I'll give Wolf a slight edge in this department since his weight forces Fox to tack on a little more damage to make the kill, and Wolf can kill lower here.


Conclusion

roughly 50/50 even split (give or take a few points). both have advantages against each other, both have weaknesses against each other. Both will have to play to their strengths while covering their own weak points carefully. Any advantage/disadvantage depends on an instance of the match, who's doing what where and how.


Now will you stop tearing each other's throats out? It's embarrassing to see the lows that both sides have sunk to. If there's a situation where Fox gets screwed over by Wolf, then all Fox has to do is not get in that situation in the first place (or vise versa).
Problem Solved!

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Nothing but hot air ever comes out of a flame war.

 

[M@v]

Wolf > Fox. Stay in the air and never underneath fox, congrats you win. Fox can't even come close to besting the wolf wall in the air. Really as long as you stay from underneath him, fox doesn't have all that much.

Foxs nair and fair says hai. The only aerial thing wolf has going for him is bair. ONCE AGAIN, people think all fox has is dair. Don't make get into a ****ing rant about this again, my fellow fox forum guys are tired of me with it. Fox dominates wolf in the air. Wolf wins this by keeping a constant spamming pressure game up, and by KEEPING THE MATCH GROUNDED. You will get owned by fox if you try to go aerial. Wolf's advantage here is his awesome ground game. Force fox to focus on ground attacks and short hopped aerials. The only time you should go airborne is when you are trying to bair edgeguards.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Youve convinced chaosleader me that its pretty even. The only thing I think is different is that wolf can outcamp fox.

Well actually their pretty even in camping but wolfs blaster is much better for defensive play than fox's.

It probably is a 50/50 matchup, so a grudge match between these rivals is a match of sheer skill.

also just because our characters arent very friendly to each other doesnt mean we cant be lets stop arguing and try to come to some kinda agreement.

 

[-Mars-]

It probably is very close to even, could go both ways. If any of you Wolf mains are up for it, I would love to play some WiFi with you guys. I know WiFi doesn't evaluate talent, but it may give me and you a better understanding of the matchup. PM me if any of you guys are interested.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

I can probably play with you tomorrow if your up for it. Im not a pro so dont expect too much tho.

 

[-Mars-]

I can probably play with you tomorrow if your up for it. Im not a pro so dont expect too much tho.

Lol, i'm not a pro either so it's fine, this is just to help us both understand the matchup a little bit better. That's cool, i'll pm you whenever I see you on.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why do you think Fox beats Wolf in the air? Wolfs bair / 0 lag fair > every aerial of fox...

 

[chaos_Leader]

Why do you think Fox beats Wolf in the air? Wolfs bair / 0 lag fair > every aerial of fox...

Could you please not throw any more gasoline on the fire?

Lagless F-air is a ground-based technique, meant to be shot-hopped.
B-air is great, but its the only thing Wolf has going for him when airborne,
when he's more than two inches off the ground.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

K, no more gasoline

But wtf, just b/c fair is autocanceled doesn't mean you can't use it in teh air...

 

[Fenrir VII]

No. It depends too much on the situations. There are angles, where Wolf can't make it back. There are angles, where Fox can't make it back. Wolf can recover from angles, that Fox could never hope to and vice versa. Edgeguarding...Wolf has a spike. And dropping from the ledge -> Shine -> djump -> dair -> UpB is almost guaranteed to spike Fox. I'm not questioning Foxs KO ability in the first place ... neither in battle nor at edgeguarding...

There are angles that Wolf can make it back that Fox "could never hope to"? I'd love to know what those are... unless you are factoring in edgeguarding into that...and even then..... ?

"dropping from the ledge-> Shine -> djump -> dair -> UpB" would only work if Fox i firefoxing right below the ledge, which honestly, when would that ever reasonably happen?

Next?

Not really. A perfectly spaced bair with DI away from Fox is hard to punish, at least not with grabs. Even usmash is very unlikely to hit and if it does hit ... it's not fresh anymore when he needs it. Besides, since when does Wolf have to approach?

By the same logic, since when does Fox have to approach? That is my point here. You make an assumption that Fox has to approach in the match...and he just doesn't. Fox players are sometimes impatient, so they will, but the character certainly doesn't need to. If Wolf starts blastering, Fox can do the same, land one and shield Wolf's... if Wolf is reflecting, Fox doesn't have to laser... It's a moot point, but I'm trying to make you see that there's no magical magnet pulling Fox to Wolf, either.

I also said "most" moves are punished out of shield... usmash will hit that sometimes...and if it's diminished...uh, Fox has one of the best move refillers in the game in laser.. Fox players don't have a need to save usmash. it's a nearly 20% hit normally. A fox who doesn't use it when applicable is not as good as one who does. Fox has the other moves to refill it very easily.. so it's really not an issue for it to be diminished. it doesn't keep us from using it.

Fsmash would like to have a word with you

I'll have a word back with utilt which clanks with fsmash. even shield grab is applicable here...

Next?

And what's the point of doing this?

What's the point of landing a free attack on your shield without fear of punishment...a tactic which applies incredible amounts of pressure, lowers your shield slightly, and may lead to something Fox can punish easily...assuming the original Nair only hits your shield?

oh...idk. good point. >.>

Ok, so fox game consists only of running shields, which are unpunishable? Now I understand why fox goes even with MK and beats Snake 70:30

Did I say it only consisted of that? didn't think so. I also said how it was punishable...
I'm really starting to wonder if you do this only for fun or if you really are this easy to debate with... : /
You make absolutely terrible points and assumptions that should never be made and flaunt it around like you're actually something special.. it's amusing.
And btw, Fox-MK is adv Fox. Fox-Snake is even. : )


Now, onto other things... several of the other Wolfs in this thread have actually posted some very good stuff here. Chaos_leader's post was quite good.
I have nothing against any of you people...and I realize I'm sounding arrogant...but it's not to anybody else. I really do think the match is a 5-5

Mainly, Fox's recovery and edgeguarding are better suited for the match. Wolf wins on the ground, yes. They're very close in the air, but I give it to Fox. Wolf's Fair as a ground tactic is punishable very much by Fox, so it's pretty risky. And Wolf's bair causes problems. Wolf's bair and Fox's bair trade hits...but Fox's is harder to hit and not quite as fast. Nair can trade with Wolf's bair, too. Fox's fair is very good against a shield game, and I believe Fox overall wins the camping game...

The two characters have very similar power in killing from the ground game.. Both are incredibly good. During the course of the match, Wolf controls the ground game very efficiently, but Fox's ability to get Wolf offstage and land early kills is REALLY good for him.

I think this is one of the most fun matches in the game. I honestly enjoy playing against Falco and Wolf both... so yeah, that's my take on it... and why I give it a 5-5

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I've come to the conclusion...that giving the advantage to Wolf would be pointless. Since neither the Wolf nor the fox community seems to agree. However, 50:50 is an exaggeration, since it's quite obvious, that Wolf indeed has the better tools, so I'll conclude the discussion with 55:45

...is that alright to you?

 

[snadmonkey]

How is 0 lag air a risky move, just do it retreating and not risky at all. Also, I'd like someone to show me how fox's bair or neutral air goes even with wolf's bair... Also wolf has a general good air game other than bair, its just his bair is so good we use it most of the time. Fox does not own wolf in the air. I don't see how this happens.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

The good captain has a tougher time against Fox so I say Fox or at least even. It is easier for Falcon to fight Wolf in the air than it is Fox so inherently, Fox owns the sky, and whoever owns the sky owns the battle. But don't use my post to decide who wins the war...

 

[Wartourist]

bla bla bla just play the game and stop saying wolf is better then fox and fox is better then wolf
Cuz WE all know that we cant let you do that star fox =)
no really it depends on who is playing

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

bla bla bla just play the game and stop saying wolf is better then fox and fox is better then wolf
Cuz WE all know that we cant let you do that star fox =)
no really it depends on who is playing

Matchups are important in Brawl because they help teach people how to go about fighting a certain character with another character. Stop your n00bish talk, it is unwanted and not tolerated here.

 

[§witch]

Matchups are important in Brawl because they help teach people how to go about fighting a certain character with another character. Stop your n00bish talk, it is unwanted and not tolerated here.

Hell, match-ups are 90% of brawl.

 

[Ishiey]

Hell, match-ups are 90% of brawl.

The other 10% is tripping.

Spoiler

**** you, Sakurai

 

[Emo^Wolf]

i believe fox has the advantage in this match up. specially with the new jab cancell with fox it destroys wolf. this match is still good but fox has to deal alil damage. all if foxs moves are continuousely and rack up damage quick. specially with that anooying utilt is a good 40-50% if the fox is good. folow with dairs and then that upsmash that kills at 100% is too good for foxs favor. i give this match up a 65-35 on foxs favor anybody have any tips they can give me against a fox??? to get around al its combos. they hit one combo its easy 30% and theyre reppetive too as soon as your close to 100% you gota play so dam careful cuz you dont want to get hit by thaat upsmash

 

[Ishiey]

Shine can get you out of combos, but if they predict it and shield you're in trouble. Fox can't get the usmash off very easily if you're careful, it's definitely nowhere near 65 35. When in doubt, try using lots of well spaced SHFF bairs.

The double jab > cancel thing, is it really inescapable for wolf?

 

[Dv8tor]

From my personal experience I believe it is 55/45 Wolf. Truly it depends on the player. No matter how much we "discuss" if that term can be used, we can never know what is true as it's all theory talk.

Now for my own opinion, Fox only has a better air game at certain angles. This is assuming that both characters are in the air at the same time with only angles changing. Wolf can smack Fox around easily with bairs on the sides; whereas Fox's dair makes for huge priority and leads into many different options for Fox when Wolf is underneath. The only true advantage I can think of would be Fox timing his shine right and stalling or stopping Wolf's attacks altogether. The same goes for Wolf except that his shine has a much easier chance of hitting than Fox's. I think it changes depending on where the players are. Basically even.

The ground game is in Wolf's favor. Truly there is not much disputing here as Fox's strengths come from mindgames by using the air a lot. If both characters are on the ground then Wolf has all approaches against Fox, that's why Fox has to take to the air where it becomes even.

The reason for 55/45 is because of the slight advantage from Wolf's ground game. It all comes down to skill and mindgames, but in terms of straight character talk it is Wolf's slightly due to ground advantage.

By the way I main Wolf and one of my friends is a very good Fox player himself, so I've seen my share of Fox vs. Wolf matches, and they are fun as heck. (Stressful too)

 

[Darxmarth23]

50/50. Then you add a deviation of 10. Either 60/40, 40/60, or something in between.

Skill and mindgames come heavily into play.

 

[ohaiduhg]

Counting both the Fox and the Wolf players as evenly skilled, the ground game should lean in Wolf's favor 55:45, because of Wolf's better distanced and seemingly lagless smashes. Fox and Wolf both have a similar shield grab->combo ability.

Air Game is 50:50 with mind games from both sides.

When it all comes down to it and Wolf is hit off the stage and falls fast with Fox's dair pushing Wolf passed side special recovering... Fox can Shine-Gimp though Wolf's Up B and can FastFall Shine before Wolf can grab the edge. Wolf can sort of Shine-Gimp Fox, but Wolf lacks floatiness with the Shine and falls very fast.

55:45 or 60:40 Fox's favor

 

[Dv8tor]

That is entirely untrue, Wolf should almost never have to use the up B recovery. If it's a Wolf player who knows scarring and semi-scarring then the up B is near useless meaning the chances of Fox shine gimping is nil. The shine gimp is amazing with Wolf when Fox begins his up B but Wolf is faster on the up B and shouldn't have to use it anyway.

One other thing is that gimping isn't that prevalent. It does not change the match to Fox's favor even if what you said is true.

Oh by the way I believe the match is even, it depends on the skill of the players, it's the slight ground advantage that I think puts it into Wolf's slight favor after deviation is entered into the equation, hence the in between of 55/45 Wolf.

 

[ohaiduhg]

That is entirely untrue, Wolf should almost never have to use the up B recovery. If it's a Wolf player who knows scarring and semi-scarring then the up B is near useless meaning the chances of Fox shine gimping is nil. The shine gimp is amazing with Wolf when Fox begins his up B but Wolf is faster on the up B and shouldn't have to use it anyway.

One other thing is that gimping isn't that prevalent. It does not change the match to Fox's favor even if what you said is true.

Oh by the way I believe the match is even, it depends on the skill of the players, it's the slight ground advantage that I think puts it into Wolf's slight favor after deviation is entered into the equation, hence the in between of 55/45 Wolf.

It is ridiculous to assume the fastest faller in the game, who gets 1 short mid-air jump, will have all of his recovery going horizontally. Dair->Nair/Dair->Shine/Dair->Footstool all can put Wolf in an uneasy situation.

Even just a smash attack off the edge and wolf will be forced to grab the edge and Fox can guard very very easily with a shine. Wolf has a predictable jump and one side B into Fox' UpSmash is a KO at 110% or something low like that.

 

[Emo^Wolf]

Shine can get you out of combos, but if they predict it and shield you're in trouble. Fox can't get the usmash off very easily if you're careful, it's definitely nowhere near 65 35. When in doubt, try using lots of well spaced SHFF bairs.

The double jab > cancel thing, is it really inescapable for wolf?

the jab cancell is inescaple its like a slim chancee to get out if he fxckes up, but he hac do it frim one side to the other and finish it white shine or crab . they can combo it to anythingg down air to up smah whisch is why i give fox the advantage here

 

[Dv8tor]

I understand what Fox can do, he does great on and off the edge, but the problem I find with what you're saying is that you're basing the entire game on the edge game. You stated that it is in Fox's favor at 55/45 or 60/40. This conclusion followed from your point of the edge game being Fox's favor. That is not a conclusion that is sound. Matches in Brawl are not always off the edge, the conclusion you came to basically said just because Fox has advantage off the stage it becomes Fox's favor the whole match. Not true in any way as that is only partially what the match consists of. The most of any match comes from on or above the stage, not the edge until high percents and that usually does not last long as one player will stock soon, then probably the next player gets stocked. I am not refuting your point, I am just stating that putting it in Fox's favor for the reasons you suggested was not correct.

Now from seeing what everyone's been saying I think I'm more swayed to 50/50 also. This match really is just skill and mind games as where one character has an advantage, the other character has another advantage in a different situation. It all depends on the players, making the Wolf versus Fox match up one of the hardest and most enjoyable matches, hope everyone would agree on that at least.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Shine. Its versatile.

Be annoying as a mother.

Yours of course.

 

[ohaiduhg]

I understand what Fox can do, he does great on and off the edge, but the problem I find with what you're saying is that you're basing the entire game on the edge game. You stated that it is in Fox's favor at 55/45 or 60/40. This conclusion followed from your point of the edge game being Fox's favor. That is not a conclusion that is sound. Matches in Brawl are not always off the edge, the conclusion you came to basically said just because Fox has advantage off the stage it becomes Fox's favor the whole match. Not true in any way as that is only partially what the match consists of. The most of any match comes from on or above the stage, not the edge until high percents and that usually does not last long as one player will stock soon, then probably the next player gets stocked. I am not refuting your point, I am just stating that putting it in Fox's favor for the reasons you suggested was not correct.

Now from seeing what everyone's been saying I think I'm more swayed to 50/50 also. This match really is just skill and mind games as where one character has an advantage, the other character has another advantage in a different situation. It all depends on the players, making the Wolf versus Fox match up one of the hardest and most enjoyable matches, hope everyone would agree on that at least.

Wolf has a very slight advantage on the ground and they are about even in the air. Fox has complete guarding of the edge. Wolf lacks kill moves.

I can agree the match is a lot of really speedy mind games, but it's the KOing part that gives Fox a very good advantage.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Fox can put wolf in bad positions, whereas wolf cant do the same to fox.

All wolf really has against fox's tricks are his shine. You have to rely on mindgames for this match up.

 

[Ishiey]

Guys.

There are five pages. If you'd look back a bit you'd see that a lot of stuff has already been discussed, so read those arguments before bringing them up again (ex killing) for the sake of practicality, please.

 

[ohaiduhg]

*reads the last 5 pages*

I did read those pages it was a lot of "I can mind game you" talk and apparently Wolf's Bair is the air juggling equivalent to a Falcone PAWNCH's power level and can come out at any direction despite being limited to being backair. Also, Wolf's Bair never ever stales. And gasoline smells good.;D

anyways...

As far as all that campfest arguing, there is a general assumption around here that reflectors/blasters are lagless and Wolf's Blaster=Fox's Blaster. Wolf's blaster has histun and Fox's doesn't, enough said about camping. The only uses would be Fox refreshing moves and Wolf following a grab with a blast or trying to get Fox to shield to approach better. I think only ChaosLeader directly said he would shield/dodge a blaster and everyone else was arguing what kind of reflecting potential Wolf's reflector has compared to Fox's. Reflectors have a lot of cooling lag which gives an upperhand to approaching to the other player.

With these characters being so mindgame based, it is defaulted to 50:50 for everything because all you can argue is how good your mind game is BUT

Trading mindgames blows and such, where does Wolf position Fox and vice versa? Wolf puts Fox in a general FSmash/Blaster range. Fox's Bthrow and Dthrow both put wolf into the air and in Dair/Fair/Uair range. Shieldgrabbing will be heavy in this game, because Wolf and Fox have an amazing grabbing game.

Fox's cripplizing Wolf offstage abilities are underestimated. YES, edge guarding is a very big factor that is very overlooked. Like I said, Dair->Nair/Shine/Footstool put Wolf in that uncomfortable UpB recovery zone. And, Wolf being a fast faller with a predictable offstage jumping range don't help escaping Dair..

Wolf has a meteor smash that is next to impossible to land and recover from, so Bair/Baster guarding will be it for the most part which is at least mindgame-able with shine stalling and Fox having a surprisingly long disatance UpB recovery.

Fox's Usmash=Wolf's Dsmash

You keep it fresh and as your KO move. Besides though, both of them lack KO moves. Fox's Shine guard is the supreme finisher or maybe a seriously mindgamed out Uair/Bair. Taking out mind games, Wolf can Uair/Fair juggle in the same prediction sense after all, the Shine will end Wolf.

To weigh everything in really suggests Fox>Wolf by a SLIGHT... SLIGHT ok? advantage. I'm not saying Fox can completely dominate Wolf and 3stock him every time, just KOing consistency is extremely important and Fox has an advantage there.

55:45 or 60:40