Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[Ludiloco]

While he obviously has a tough time offstage here, I just want to point out that most Ness players won't rely on PK Thunder unless they literally have nothing left to do. The kid has a huge double jump, a long-lasting airdodge, and a solid set of aerials (all of which can kill barring Fair), so even if you get him offstage you still have to be smart about how you keep him there.

Yes, I feel this is basic Ness mu knowledge but thank you for posting it. Ness' double jump may be huge but you have to space it super well to snap to the ledge. All characters who struggle to snap ledge struggle against Greninja's hydro pump. Ness is a bit of an exception in that his air mobility is good enough to not really matter if he gets pumped while in the middle of his jump or PKT2 animation. However, hydro pump still wrecks him if he has to pkt and isn't particularly close to the stage. At that point as a Ness main though you probably should be expecting to lose your stock in a lot of matchups.

Greninja shouldn't commit too hard to keeping Ness offstage, as it's likely you'll have an easier time punishing his landing or attempt to ledge snap than it is you'll be able to hit him again offstage. Eventually you'll knock him far enough that hydro pump will be a safe gimping tool.

 

[Lavani]

My understanding was that SS could just interrupt weak hitstun immediately, I usually mashed it out when I went for it but it might be better to hold a partial charge and wait a bit for positioning purposes. You won't see it work against the 9% sweetspot on grounded SL's first hit, but if memory serves it should work on the grounded sourspot (6%, up high) and any part of midair SL.

No access to the game for the foreseeable future so I don't have the means to look into this further, sorry.

 

[warionumbah2]

Well i played Greninja against @Urameshi_ metaknight twas fun actually, great way to avoid the bs that is Metaknight dittos. Of course i attempted to abuse the SS hitstun cancel, i had no trouble at all reducing the damage when i got caught in nado. I could actually hitstun cancel his Fair but his Fair is garbage. I literally couldn't SS cancel his shuttle loops, when i did it too early expecting a Shuttle loop after he DA me i left myself wide open(luckily i never got punished) i SS cancelled his uair a few times but i got uair combo'd on more than one occasion and almost died(he missed Shuttle loop). He killed me alot via forward throw into shuttle loop which is very easy to sweetspot preventing SS cancel to work(i think).

Shurikan camping is a thing, i wasn't aware of Greninja having poor oos and his standing grab being amazing so he was steam rolling me. Then i realized that im using a blue character therefore i can be cancer. Can't combo for ****, but i can sure as hell run away and spam shurikans and then kill with up throw.

My Greninja is ass tho i decided to use him for the lolz thinking i can get easy wins via mashing side b. Is there any frame data stuff on SS hitstun cancel? Its consistent on nado but very inconsistent on Metaknights uair.

 

[FullMoon]

Well i played Greninja against @Urameshi_ metaknight twas fun actually, great way to avoid the bs that is Metaknight dittos. Of course i attempted to abuse the SS hitstun cancel, i had no trouble at all reducing the damage when i got caught in nado. I could actually hitstun cancel his Fair but his Fair is garbage. I literally couldn't SS cancel his shuttle loops, when i did it too early expecting a Shuttle loop after he DA me i left myself wide open(luckily i never got punished) i SS cancelled his uair a few times but i got uair combo'd on more than one occasion and almost died(he missed Shuttle loop). He killed me alot via forward throw into shuttle loop which is very easy to sweetspot preventing SS cancel to work(i think).

Shurikan camping is a thing, i wasn't aware of Greninja having poor oos and his standing grab being amazing so he was steam rolling me. Then i realized that im using a blue character therefore i can be cancer. Can't combo for ****, but i can sure as hell run away and spam shurikans and then kill with up throw.

My Greninja is *** tho i decided to use him for the lolz thinking i can get easy wins via mashing side b. Is there any frame data stuff on SS hitstun cancel? Its consistent on nado but very inconsistent on Metaknights uair.

From what I tested myself you can Shadow Sneak as soon as you enter weak hitstun, so it really depends on what move and how much hitstun it does. Tornado hits multiple times so it's easier to get, Up-Air is a single hit so getting the timing right on it is probably pretty hard.

I don't think there's any specific frame data for it. It's basically "are you in weak hitstun? Then you can Shadow Sneak out of it"

 

[Lawliet626]

Anything on the peach MU? I find it hard to get in on her and i find myself having trouble getting around her Dairs

 

[TheRealDonquavious]

I recently placed 3rd in a decently sized tourney, getting steamrolled by a pac man in losers finals. How do you even play against this tricky yellow spherical object?

 

[Spirst]

I use both characters but don't play against either individual one often. Pacman is a character who becomes a lot easier to manage when you're aware of what he can do exactly. I know that applies to everyone else but it's especially true with Pac since he has a number of different setups and each fruit has different properties. If you're not aware of what he's capable of, he'll likely dance all around you while you scratch your head and wonder how he did that. How I usually play against Pacman as Greninja is keep the pressure on him. Pacman is a character who hates it when he can't get enough space to charge bonus fruit. Take note though that his OoS nair and OoS trampoline are both fairly good options for escaping so you don't want to get too on him. If you can bait out the trampoline, you can punish him as he's falling with a SHFF nair or a shuriken probably.

I personally like keeping him on the edges because, while he may have a pretty good ledgecamping game, we can hydropump both his power pellet and trampoline with ease and screw him over. Hydropump literally slaps the power pellet away, it's hilarious. Also, on the edge, it gives him a lot less space to utilize his hydrant or charge his fruit. Something everyone should learn vs Pacman (which will likely make things harder for him down the road) is to catch his fruits from midair. Shield>jump+airdodge/Z (iirc) and you'll be able to catch a lot of what he throws save perhaps for the key. Melon/Bell/Key are what he'll likely charge at high percents and fair>Key is a thing so be wary of that. Don't always go for the hydrant breaks right away either, tempting as it is. Hydrants are used at times as a diversion so Pacman can punish hitlag with a key or smash or grab. Outside of bell setups, edgeguards (which is hard to do vs Greninja), and key tosses (which he can hit you with if you hydropump on stage all the time), he doesn't really land kills very well outside of hard reads kind of like Greninja. We still have better setups though. Also, footstool combos are pretty useful here, I find. He's not too fast or floaty or small so it's pretty optimal for landing footstool combos from nair or dtilt.

Not sure since I haven't tested it out but if he's trying to fair chain you offstage for low percent gimps, you might be able to shadow sneak hitstun cancel. I'm also wondering if you can shadow sneak hitstun cancel the dash attack since the hitlag gives plenty of reaction time.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Not a Marth main anymore but how any Greninja main can think they have advantage over him after the slew of buffs he has received blows my mind. It was only slight advantage to Greninja before.

Now Marth is MUCH safer and gets 50/50 mix-ups that can lead to early KOs from a simple jab.

Greninja literally CANNOT touch Marths shield with anything besides a Shuriken. That's it. Everything else gets punished. He straight up loses in footsies and Marth can safely attack his shield without fear when he spaces correctly.

This is even at worst for Marth.

 

[Funkermonster]

Hello Toad Man, er... Shadow Man? Well, I'll work on the name later but as a player of both characters, I know he wasn't listed as part of 'the rest' you're talking about but I wanted to talk a bit more about the matchup since I don't get to play against either one individually very often and since they're both my characters, its only natural I'd wanna converse about it. I know, the MU ratio here is usually accepted as 55:45 or sometimes 60:40 in your favor because of your mobility, better combo game, fully charged WS, and somewhat better kill moves, but some words from a real good Mega Man have gotten me thinking that this isn't as bad an MU for us as I initially thought:

• Greninja's horrible out of shield options allow our lemon pressure to shine a lot even more than usual. Combining that with Metal Blade, Leaf Shield (which now hits 2 times instead of once as of this patch and deals increased damage & shield), and Crash Bomber is gonna make you dread having to push the shield button.
• Our moveset is almost entirely disjointed, and we've got just enough range and speed to deal with your go-to options in neutral: Nair outprioritizes lemons and combos into many things on hit, but its got about as much range as the sweetspot of our nair and is not safe on block at all, even if you cross up we can still Spark Shock/ Usmash OoS (Electric > Water after all). Fair is safe on block and also destroys lemons, but comes out on like frame 16 and if we're quick enough lemons hit you out of it before it comes. MM's Fair and Bair also outrange and outspeed both of these moves.
• Uncharged Shurikens are completely destroyed by lemons and are almost a non-issue to us, and you have to commit to commit to Fully Charged Shurikens to actually deal with lemons, which is still outranged by Leaf Shield (and doesn't get eaten by it either) and takes too long to charge to be reliably used often, just one lemon stops the charge. Normally, Greninja doesn't have to approach because of shurikens and he doesn't really like doing it, but since we have ways to counter that you kind of have to.
• Hydro Pump Shenaningans do little to nothing to our recovery, all it mostly does is push us up further and we aren't put in helpless mode so we can still double jump after it, nair upon landing, or recover high and turn on Leaf Shield (which basically gives an active hitbox around us just when jumping, shielding, dodging, rolling, taunting, or doing nothing) and recover to the ledge and roll. Bair stagespiking can work, but the tech window is pretty big in this game and its not too hard to tech except when playing online, and Bair by itself usually isn't powerful enough to kill us due to our weight, and your other aerials don't exactly do much to gimp us either. Although in reverse, I don't think we can do much to stop Greninja's recovery either, Leafstooling and Metal Blade z-drops don't work if you Substitute, and its somewhat hard to hit you out of hydro pump due to your air mobility. When it comes to edgeguardng, I feel neither party really does much to the other.

Not to say that it's in MM's favor or anything, but I'm beginning to think its better for us than perceived since our neutral is good enough to deal with tools of many other characters including yours, and I'm thinking anything beyond 44:55 would go overboard. Greninja's mobility and damage is leagues above ours, but not as overwhelming as say or , and we've got the weight to take it. I wish we still had Rush Hitstun cancelling, cuz then we'd have little to no losing MUs and we'd probably be top tier, not even 1.0.4 you

 

[Coffee™]

Not a Marth main anymore but how any Greninja main can think they have advantage over him after the slew of buffs he has received blows my mind. It was only slight advantage to Greninja before.

Now Marth is MUCH safer and gets 50/50 mix-ups that can lead to early KOs from a simple jab.

Greninja literally CANNOT touch Marths shield with anything besides a Shuriken. That's it. Everything else gets punished. He straight up loses in footsies and Marth can safely attack his shield without fear when he spaces correctly.

This is even at worst for Marth.

This is pretty exaggerated. Marth doesn’t simply get in for free. He still has to respect Greninja’s Fair, Bair and Ftilt at the ranges he prefers. Water Shuriken and Hydro Pump are simply pests at any range further than that. Greninja’s CQC options are also faster, so assuming they aren’t at that ideal range for Marth where his CQC options outrange then he’s going to be losing out there too.

One of the main annoyances for Marth in the matchup is Greninja’s Dash Grab though. It’s relatively easy to land if Marth spaces anything wrong given Greninja’s mobility and Dash Grab’s range. It was a lot easier to grab him pre-patch but it’s still quite doable now.

As for hitting Greninja’s shield, sure Marth can get away with it occasionally as can most characters but he ain’t no Shiek or Fox. He doesn’t apply pressure well enough to keep Greninja in shield constantly.

Definitely not a matchup defining thing there.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So I read up to Marth doesnt get in for free, and thats when I knew you didnt actually read anything I said. Marth doesnt want to "get in".

 

[bc1910]

@ Emblem Lord I'm interested to hear your opinion on the Ryu MU? It hasn't been discussed. Seems like one we could lose. We have to fight Ryu like we fight Luigi, only Ryu's mobility is better and Hadoken is more versatile than fireballs.

Up close we get ruined in disadvantage by virtue of being a fast faller and fairly light, and ruined in neutral because Ryu's up close options are just straight up better. No other way of putting it. We also might as well have no standing grab.

In practice I don't have much trouble with Ryu players but I'm the first to admit I've only played like, 2 good ones.
-----
By the by, I agree with Fox at 60:40 and I also believe Sheik is 65:35 or worse.

I feel like we don't have a hope vs a good Sheik. We cannot zone her at all because her fully charged needles punish shuriken on reaction and allow her to win the damage war. She doesn't exactly get fully charged needles for free (shuriken's rapid fire rate is good while mixing up no charge and slight charge is unreactable and beats powershield) but it hardly matters when she can also BF shurikens for easy 12% punishes, and she has good mobility which she can use to get in on us whenever she wants. Up close is no contest. Mid range we have a hope, but Sheik can just move into close range whenever she wants and not get punished for it.

This analysis comes from having experience playing both sides of the MU, as I main both characters.

Fox also ruins us up close and is difficult to zone because of his mobility and reflector. But at least his recovery is somewhat exploitable and although he bullies us for shielding, he doesn't kill us for it. Definitely feels extremely hard to win though, which is why I think 60:40 is fair. Anything worse than 60:40 is realistically unwinnable at high level and I don't think Fox is quite there.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean..if any Gekkougas wanna throw down later tonight around 10pm EST and we learn the match together that would be awesome.

 

[Coffee™]

So I read up to Marth doesnt get in for free, and thats when I knew you didnt actually read anything I said. Marth doesnt want to "get in".

"Get in" was just being used as a rough term for "approaching" in my post. Either way I'd be down to play around 10. Should make for a good learning experience.

 

[Emblem Lord]

For the record I was talking about sparring Ryu vs Ninja frog.

 

[Coffee™]

For the record I was talking about sparring Ryu vs Ninja frog.

That's fine. Need to learn that matchup anyway.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Wait...are you New Jersey?

 

[Coffee™]

Wait...are you New Jersey?

Nah, south florida.

 

[Emblem Lord]

good enough

 

[Coffee™]

@ Emblem Lord I'm interested to hear your opinion on the Ryu MU? It hasn't been discussed. Seems like one we could lose. We have to fight Ryu like we fight Luigi, only Ryu's mobility is better and Hadoken is more versatile than fireballs.

Up close we get ruined in disadvantage by virtue of being a fast faller and fairly light, and ruined in neutral because Ryu's up close options are just straight up better. No other way of putting it. We also might as well have no standing grab.

In practice I don't have much trouble with Ryu players but I'm the first to admit I've only played like, 2 good ones.
-----
By the by, I agree with Fox at 60:40 and I also believe Sheik is 65:35 or worse.

I feel like we don't have a hope vs a good Sheik. We cannot zone her at all because her fully charged needles punish shuriken on reaction and allow her to win the damage war. She doesn't exactly get fully charged needles for free (shuriken's rapid fire rate is good while mixing up no charge and slight charge is unreactable and beats powershield) but it hardly matters when she can also BF shurikens for easy 12% punishes, and she has good mobility which she can use to get in on us whenever she wants. Up close is no contest. Mid range we have a hope, but Sheik can just move into close range whenever she wants and not get punished for it.

This analysis comes from having experience playing both sides of the MU, as I main both characters.

Fox also ruins us up close and is difficult to zone because of his mobility and reflector. But at least his recovery is somewhat exploitable and although he bullies us for shielding, he doesn't kill us for it. Definitely feels extremely hard to win though, which is why I think 60:40 is fair. Anything worse than 60:40 is realistically unwinnable at high level and I don't think Fox is quite there.

I think Fox is a worse matchup than Shiek. She's also definitely not a 65:35. The main problem with Fox is his Dash Attack. It lasts forever and Fox has the mobility to chase down Greninja's landings with it. Both when just short hopping or when trying to get back to the ground. Greninja doesn't really have a good aerial for dealing with it or to punish it oos so it creates this huge guessing game for him which is largely in Foxes favor as to who'll come out on top.

Greninja doesn't really have problems with the character otherwise. Dash attack is literally why Fox wins.

 

[bc1910]

I mean if you'd like to elaborate on what we can actually do to Sheik be my guest?

No way is Fox worse. Though dash attack is pretty horrible to deal with I agree. But you can at least Nair and win damage trades if you mix up your aerial drift, so you can actually hit Fox's hurtbox and not just his outstretched foot. Nair's crappy range makes this inconsistent but it's an option.

 

[Coffee™]

I mean if you'd like to elaborate on what we can actually do to Sheik be my guest?

No way is Fox worse. Though dash attack is pretty horrible to deal with I agree. But you can at least Nair and win damage trades if you mix up your aerial drift, so you can actually hit Fox's hurtbox and not just his outstretched foot. Nair's crappy range makes this inconsistent but it's an option.

I want to have a serious practice session with Ed or Master Raven before i get too deep into the matchup but Greninja generally does fine at mid range. CQC range obviously favors shiek but his fall speed and fast jab are really useful here. She is also pretty susceptible to his combos and it can be really hard for her to kill him outside of hard reads or getting him to really high percents.

Bair is also really effective against Shiek in neutral as it outranges her own Fair and Nair and is pretty fast.

As far as Fox goes....Nair is not effective as you are only getting that trade if you predict the dash attack and use the move preemptively. Greninja is still gonna be the loser in that scenario a lot.

 

[Ludiloco]

I played the best Fox in MI tonight, and I feel that the mu is largely dependent on how patient Fox is.

If Fox sits back and shoots lasers, punishes what we do with dash attack and just kinda waits for our options then it is a tough matchup. But Ksev plays a little more aggressively and read-based than some of the Foxes I'm used to and I found the matchup to really not be that difficult. I got two stocked game 1, but was completely bodying him game 2 before an unfortunate SD pretty much sealed my fate. It's worth noting T&C is amazing in this mu because Fox struggles to get out of up throw up air at around 70-80 and we can easily seal a stock with the ceiling.

In general I would agree the mu is not in our favor. Fox just has way better close range options, doesn't struggle with our zoning options too much, and has the mobility to keep up with us all over the stage. But I think this is a weird mu that depends on how Fox is being played. 60:40 if patiently, pretty even or maybe 55:45 if aggressively.

 

[Illusion.]

I don't see how we lose to Fox, I've beaten all the solid Fox players at my locals no problem... except for one (Megafox).

 

[bc1910]

I don't see how we lose to Fox, I've beaten all the solid Fox players at my locals no problem... except for one (Megafox).

Can we get some names of the other Foxes?

And what is your win consistency against them? Do you beat them all the time, rarely or somewhere in between?

I want to have a serious practice session with Ed or Master Raven before i get too deep into the matchup but Greninja generally does fine at mid range. CQC range obviously favors shiek but his fall speed and fast jab are really useful here. She is also pretty susceptible to his combos and it can be really hard for her to kill him outside of hard reads or getting him to really high percents.

Bair is also really effective against Shiek in neutral as it outranges her own Fair and Nair and is pretty fast.

As far as Fox goes....Nair is not effective as you are only getting that trade if you predict the dash attack and use the move preemptively. Greninja is still gonna be the loser in that scenario a lot.

Nair might have to be used preemptively but it's not reactable for Fox. Greninja does lose the scenario more often than not, I'm just saying he has a decent counterattack. For me that scenario doesn't tip Fox over the threshold of being a worse MU than Sheik because she's scarier than him in almost every other way.

Bair does not outrange Sheik's Fair to my knowledge. Sheik's Fair has more range than Marth's Fair. We only barely outrange her Fair with Ftilt and Fsmash, not sure about our Fair.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Can we get some names of the other Foxes?

And what is your win consistency against them? Do you beat them all the time, rarely or somewhere in between?



Nair might have to be used preemptively but it's not reactable for Fox. Greninja does lose the scenario more often than not, I'm just saying he has a decent counterattack. For me that scenario doesn't tip Fox over the threshold of being a worse MU than Sheik because she's scarier than him in almost every other way.

Bair does not outrange Sheik's Fair to my knowledge. Sheik's Fair has more range than Marth's Fair. We only barely outrange her Fair with Ftilt and Fsmash, not sure about our Fair.

No. No it does not. You can test that in practice mode. plz dont believe everything you read just because people are drinking the "Sheik is OP" water.

 

[bc1910]

I did try it in training mode?

I've seen clips of it too.

The bottom half of the animation, her hand extends beyond the white line.

Could just be the bottom half I guess.

 

[Coffee™]

Nair might have to be used preemptively but it's not reactable for Fox. Greninja does lose the scenario more often than not, I'm just saying he has a decent counterattack. For me that scenario doesn't tip Fox over the threshold of being a worse MU than Sheik because she's scarier than him in almost every other way.

Bair does not outrange Sheik's Fair to my knowledge. Sheik's Fair has more range than Marth's Fair. We only barely outrange her Fair with Ftilt and Fsmash, not sure about our Fair.

Nair isn’t reactable but I don’t agree that it’s a decent way of defending against Dash Attack. Fox’s Dash Attack is meant to be a punish tool. In the ideal scenarios he should be using it, Greninja, most likely isn’t going to be using Nair. You basically have to predict Fox’s Dash Attack to hope that you have a chance of trading with it. The more patient the Fox player is the harder this becomes.

As far as Bair goes, I’m not 100% on it outranging Shiek’s Fair but it has comparable range to Greninja’s Ftilt. I feel like it has slightly more range but that might just be Greninja’s aerial mobility fooling me. Either way it’s still a decent enough tool to combat her SH aerial approaches.

 

[Codaption]

Shiek Fair doesn't actually have all that much range, unless what @ bc1910 said is true and it has more in a certain part of the animation. Other than that, Greninja Bair should be more than enough to outdo it.

 

[Illusion.]

Can we get some names of the other Foxes?

And what is your win consistency against them? Do you beat them all the time, rarely or somewhere in between?

Comet, Iconic, and Mindless (retired).

Comet and Iconic I'm 2-0 in sets against them, and Mindless I played about 5 or 6 friendlies with and only lost one game.

So, to answer your question, I consistently beat them.

 

[Codaption]

I'd like to point out that friendlies aren't really a reliable way to judge skill, since people are rarely trying all that hard to win- plus, you said the guy was retired. The other two sound good, though.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja Bair does not outrange Sheik Fair lol.

I don't know what else to say other than go try it for yourselves in training mode.

 

[Illusion.]

I'd like to point out that friendlies aren't really a reliable way to judge skill, since people are rarely trying all that hard to win- plus, you said the guy was retired. The other two sound good, though.

Oh yeah I agree, but I have to add that he had never played a Greninja before and wanted to see how good I was, so I know he was definitely trying to win. He didn't retire until about 3 weeks after the matches though.

The other two (Comet and Iconic) were tournament sets.

 

[bc1910]

That's a nice record.

Since you are literally the first Greninja I've ever spoken to who thinks we don't lose to Fox I'm not about to change my viewpoint, but it's a little food for thought.

Do you have any videos of the matches?

 

[Illusion.]

That's a nice record.

Since you are literally the first Greninja I've ever spoken to who thinks we don't lose to Fox I'm not about to change my viewpoint, but it's a little food for thought.

Do you have any videos of the matches?

I don't considering each time I played them it was either Loser's Quarters, Loser's Semis, or early on in Winner's so they weren't on stream, but I can explain how I played. If I get a match with them streamed on Sunday (tournament day), I'll link the timestamp.

Basically, you need to play patient, but you're able to be agressive and punish hard once they make a mistake, he's a fast faller so we can pull off some easy strings. Shuriken should only be used sparingly. We can SS-cancel out of his U-tilt strings and the SS actually ends up hitting him at low percents if I'm not mistaken. His recovery is also very easy to edgeguard as Hydro Pump shuts down Fire Fox while he's charging it, and you can spike him with D-air while he's charging it. Of course, after it happens the first time, he's gonna try to recover high with Fox Illusion in order to avoid that. Adapt to it/read it and you can hit him with an U-smash or side-angled Hydro Pump, depending on how high he ends up recovering.

But who knows, I could end up being wrong. My opinion on the MU could change in the future if I end up playing more Fox players.

 

[Codaption]

After testing Both Greninja Bair and Shiek Fair in training mode, the results I got were....a little bit sketchy, in some ways. I couldn't really tell whether the first two hits of Greninja Bair outrange it... leaning towards no, but honestly it's really close. While the last hit most certainly does, I'm not sure how much disjoint the move has (if any). Could somebody clear that up for me?

 

[bc1910]

Greninja Bair does not outrange Sheik Fair with any of the kicks.

This should be case closed.

 

[Ludiloco]

Sheik's fair is disjointed so it would beat bair anyway

 

[Codaption]

.....Huh....well, pooies.

Guess it's not really worth testing it with Fair, so I guess Gren doesn't really have a solid answer to that.

 

[Guimartgon]

Sadly, not having a solid answer to Fair is almost equal to not having a solid answer to sheik