Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[Jonarobin]

This'd be great, as I'm not really sure what stage to pick against what character aside from guesses

 

[WispBae]

Howdy there lil' Froggies! The Doggy Boards are discussing this MU and would love your input!

Click on this picture of Tink about to get le frog legs to le face to go straight to the thread!

(I love you can see the felt on the doll so well! Such attention to detail!)

 

[Gunla]

Any chance we can get a "Stages to ban/pick" section against other characters in the OP? It would help players like me who are new to the competitive scene that need to learn this stuff.

I will definitely add this in the future.

Going to give this week a bit more time.

 

[Ludiloco]

So I just played one of the better in the states yesterday in bracket. I lost, but it was close. Here's what I realized about the matchup.

Greninja MK feels super hard at first. Meta Knight's dash attack is absolutely incredible and we have no safe punish on it due to its incredibly low endlag. If we get hit by it, we get popped up at an angle similar to our d tilt and meta knight gets easy follow ups on our fast fall speed. If you're not careful dash attack can easily take a stock on a low ceiling stage, it can lead into up airs which can lead into shuttle loop for a devastating combo. So, neutral against MK is more or less run away and throw shurikens, and wait for him to commit to something other than dash attack. Sometimes MK players will throw out f smash in neutral as well, do not try to punish this or you will be eating something else or even worse another f smash. One thing I want to test more next time is spacing fair and seeing how MK can react to it, it seems like a solid option but I don't use it as much as I probably should.

One thing we have going for us is MK has pretty bad aerial mobility. He has six jumps but none of them take him very far, meaning if he's in the air he has to commit to landing somewhere, which can be punished. His best option to mix up his movement/recovery is his dimensional cape, which can be pretty safe if he's in a jam. Another boon for us is his struggle to edge guard us, hydro pump being such a diverse recovery means meta knight isn't going to be able to gimp us with his relatively low kb aerials until very high %. Just be patient and you'll get back to the ledge fine.

When edge guarding him, be careful as his shuttle loop hitbox (and drill rush for that matter) pokes above the stage, which will give him a free neutral reset if you don't block it. Because these moves poke above the stage (read: don't auto-snap) I feel hydro pump may be a pretty good option for cheesing a stock off him, as his bad aerial mobility will keep him from getting the ledge if he's pushed off it. I have not tested this, it's just theory.

A few notes about shuttle loop and tornado: Yes, it is possible to mash shadow sneak out of shuttle loop and tornado but it is incredibly difficult. Tornado especially is hard, though mashing shadow sneak often makes you take less damage from it. Shuttle loop I accomplished once or twice which may have saved a stock, and this is definitely something we should be practicing as the number of MKs will likely rise due to his viability against Sheik.

If I had to put a number on it I'd say probably even but this can definitely be a tough matchup if you don't play it right.

 

[Illusion.]

I played against the #2 player in my city last week and he uses Meta Knight. Here's what I observed:

Although we have good aerial game, his is just overall better on-stage. Our fastest aerial is b-air, but ALL of his aerials are fast. You don't want to be in the air against him on-stage, especially above him since it can possibly lead to the infamous u-air chain to Shuttle Loop.

He's forced to approach us since we have Shuriken, but he has decent run speed meaning it won't be much of a problem for him to get to us. His dash attack is his best option for approaching, but since it has little endlag, you can't punish that. Wait to see what he throws out afterwards and bait it next time to punish it. The same thing goes for his f-smash. I noticed my opponent go for the f-smash to bait me and then did a pivot f-smash when I fell for it. I found that this is a good opportunity for SHFF N-air if you bait that. We're also able to SS-cancel some of his multi-hit moves.

When it comes to recovery, he has a hard time gimping and edgeguarding since we're able to easily perform mixups with Hydro Pump to get back to the stage. He has six jumps, but since he has a slow aerial mobilty, we can use Hydro Pump to push him back little-by-little assuming he's coming from afar rather than from below.


Meta Knight dominates in the air due to his fast aerials while we have better ground game due to Shuriken, speed, and SS-canceling (it is hard to perform, however). He has a hard time edgeguarding us due to his slow aerial mobilty and our Hydro Pump mixups, while we have an easier time edgeguarding him if he's coming from afar because of Hydro Pump. Looks to be a 50:50 or 55:45 MU in Greninja's favor.

 

[FullMoon]

Yeah I can't see this MU being much in Greninja's favor at all. 55:45 at best seems right.

 

[Coffee™]

Greninja can Shadow Sneak out of up air chains.

 

[Lawliet626]

50/50 seems about right, even the meta knight boards agree on it

 

[Gunla]

Results:

• (50:50)
• (?:?)
  
• (50:50)
• (50:50)

This Week (Or so):

• (?:?)
  
• (?:?)
  
• (?:?)
  
• (?:?)

 

[FullMoon]

We outcamp Robin pretty badly. Water Shuriken clashes with all Thunder spells except Thoron and unlike Robin we don't have to worry about running out of ammo. We can also crouch under all of his Thunder spells and out low profile it easier for Arcfire to go over our heads.

Robin has to approach, Greninja can sit back throwing shurikens that are much faster than any of his other projectiles except Thoron which we can just duck under if he fires it. If he even gets to charged it while we're pelting him with shurikens.

Levin Sword is very scary though, especially Robin's aerials which are all very powerful and Up-Air has really crazy range. However, he struggles to get in because of his slow mobility while we are the complete opposite. He can kill earlier than us especially with his new Hoo-Hah, but we definitely control the pace of the match in this MU.

Robin's recovery can also get messed up by Hydro Pump, his aerial mobility after using it is actually pretty damn good, but he's still vulnerable to attacks which can cost him a stock pretty easily. We can also stage spike with B-Air since he only fires the hitboxes downwards.

I think Greninja has a clear advantage here, 60:40 in our favor I'd say, the shuriken buff really hurts Robin's zoning here and forces him to get close to us.

Do keep in mind his tomes though, they're really good items and they can make zoning Robin out a lot more difficult since he can throw them so quickly and they can deal up to 18% damage which is a lot for just a book.

Robin has better killpower than us, but Greninja's combos and mobility plus shurikens really give him an edge in this fight I'd say.

 

[Lawliet626]

I'd like to give my two cents with robin at least since i took the time to learn him/her (just gonna say refer as "him" just cause)

He can be juggled pretty easily, he struggles to land and his best move to get out of juggles is elwind so try to keep your guard up so he doesn't get you while giving himself a somewhat safe landing
His tilts and Nair are quick enough and are mostly used as a "get off me" move.

His thunder tomes can't micro charge (he cant charge it little by little like samus and lucario can) he needs to charge those full 1-2 seconds to fully upgrade his thunder tome, shuriken spamming does a great job preventing him from charging his thunder, most of the thunder tomes can also be evaded by jumping (except for thoron)I haven't truly tested it out but i think we can jab and get out of arc fire the same way we can do it with ness' Pk fire, but aside from that, using shadow sneak to get though the arcfire to punish robin usually works fine..

Try to avoid stages with platforms like battlefield and dreamland since robin is a character that likes to catch landings and his aerials can cover an entire platform on BF and DL

Greninja definitely wins this like 60:40
im mainly saying the stuff thats on the top of my head, if anything else pops up or i can get a chance to think more throughly, ill definitely add to this.

 

[Zareidriel]

The shurikens aren't much of a threat, charged they're easy to dodge, uncharged we just gotta watch out for getting the Thunder Tome interrupted (something we're very used to), but those combos can wreak some havoc. I've never had an issue with Hydro Pump but that may vary from ninja to ninja. Though we outrange with aerials, the range and quickness of those smashes can be pretty scary. I'd say Robin has the overall advantage in aerial combat. If we can keep Greninja zoned, he's gonna have a hard time getting kills and damage, but if he can get in, we have a hard time getting away. Landing the kill for Greninja can be tricky unless we mess up a landing or mis-time our aerial against a Greninja Fair. We have a fairly easy time landing the kill if we catch Greninja in Arcthunder, Arcfire, etc, but we have to catch him first. Kero is a power-ranked Greninja in our state so I know what it's like to get bodied by one, but when fighting one of approximately my skill level it seems like his advantage is there, but not too severe. I'd give it a 45:55, Greninja's favor.

 

[bc1910]

@ Zareidriel Thanks for your input! Some good points there most of which I agree with.

I have trouble seeing how this is better than 60:40 for Robin since the shuriken buff. Greninja kind of just hurls uncharged shurikens at Robin from 75%-max range and Robin has two options; try to block them with Arcfire and charge up Thunder through clever use of powershielding. Blocking with Arcfire can be tough because it's just so laggy and Greninja is really fast, it's not a difficult option to punish even on reaction. Slowly charging Thunder spells is pretty good, but Greninja can partially charge the shuriken and it releases at an unreactable speed when he releases the B button, so powershielding isn't a reliably defence against shurikens (contributes to shurikens being a contender for best non-Needles projectile in the game IMO but that's a tangent). Shuriken pressure is very difficult for Robin to deal with.

Greninja has top tier mobility which Robin just hates in general.

This matchup is prevented from being a whitewash by Robin's insanely high reward on hit for certain moves. Jab, down throw, Arcfire and Arcthunder can body Greninja and all of them but jab can lead to death at like 80% damage. The issue is landing these moves against such a mobile character with such a spammy projectile.

I don't think 55:45 is out of the question just because some of Robin's moves were buffed so much that his conversions are THAT good now, but I would be happy to settle on 60:40 here.

 

[Zareidriel]

Good points. Yeah I wouldn't really argue with a 60:40 ruling, I mean we're both probably a little biased toward our own character's perspective as well lol, though am inclined to think 60:40 is pretty severe and I'm not sure if the matchup is quite that bad. But anyway honestly I think it would lie somewhere between 60:40 and 55:45. It'd be nice to get the perspective from a Greninja player who fights a whole lot of Robins, or vice-versa.

 

[FullMoon]

60-40 is not really that severe. It's basically a +1 in our favor.

 

[Ludiloco]

So I haven't played the matchup against Ike much, but it's worth noting if we're in decent position and he has to Aether, he is dead. Hydro pump pushes him far enough from the ledge that he drops like a rock. This is a mu where cheese becomes pretty damn effective.

I feel like the buffs have made Ike into a total monster though. We outrange him with our projectile and can get away with our mobility, but his range and power up close I think makes this pretty much even. Would like more input from someone with a little more experience, but I'll call it 55:45 our favor.

 

[PK Gaming]

Hola

While the Water Shuriken buff changed things, its effectiveness in this matchup is absolutely overstated. A few of you seem to be under the misconception that Robin being forced to approach is a bad thing. In actuality, Robin wants to approach and aggressive in this matchup, since that's how we get the big damage. We outrange you in the air and Robin's jab beats out most of your grounded options (which is extra bad because Greninja is vulnerable to Wind Jab). Honestly, this matchup isn't too difficult from my experience. FD is the only stage where Robin really struggles to charge Thunder, but barring that, Thunder will be a consistent threat. It's also pretty safe to say that we outdamage you by a ton, and we have a much easier time killing you than vice versa, meaning Robin has the room to make actually make mistakes in this matchup whereas Greninja... doesn't. The most effective thing you can do in this matchup is chase down Robin when he's in the air. You can get a lot of mileage out of uair since Robin's options against enemies from below aren't that great.

I'm not really one to fuss about matchup numbers since I think they're largely pointless, but I can say with certainty that Robin vs Greninja is 45 - 55 at best. Greninja is simply not comparable to characters who have clear cut advantages against Robin, such as Captain Falcon, Zero Suit Samus or Sheik.

@Dathx can shed more light on this matchup since has experience against Greninja.

 

[bc1910]

@ PK Gaming Thanks for your input too!

As a main of both characters I can say this is literally the only MU where I think Greninja is actually best off playing like a worse Sheik. Hanging back, hurling a projectile and going hard up close when he can. And in my experience Sheik has a clear cut advantage against Robin so it makes sense for Greninja to have a pretty strong one as well.

For what it's worth I think this MU was pretty even and surprisingly hard pre-patch. People used to say if you had mobility you auto-beat Robin and I was like how? Greninja actually struggles against that wind jab.

But yeah with the new shurikens things got significantly easier. Robin may WANT to approach for big damage but his approach just isn't good enough. Meh, just my opinion.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja also isn't really that vulnerable to Wind Jab because he can Shadow Sneak out of it pretty easily and Robin will be stuck in endlag and unable to punish it.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I remember a couple of times with a few Greninjas, including FullMoon on Smashladder (post-ranking set) where all of Greninja's aerials would just be stopped cold by Robin's Jab 1 and Jab 2. Bair, Nair, even Fair couldn't outmatch it, though the latter may be due to sub-optimal spacing. If Robin gets a substantial lead, a situation that can occur with a degree of frequency given his great damage output off of a grab or Arcthunder, he may just be content with hanging back and stuffing most of Greninja's options with his Jab, shielding shurikens as they come. I don't know if Greninja's aerials have changed up much in frame data, damage, or size since then from the patches, but if Greninja can't get past Jab, that's going to create some problems.

But once Greninja get past Jab and gets in? Holy wow is it hard to get settled back comfortably.

Also, if Greninja fully charges a Shuriken at the spacing where he can capitalize with a Fair/aerial and Robin recognizes it, Robin can short hop right over it, and Fair Greninja for the trouble, autocanceling in the process....unless the Shuriken endlag reduction was that significant. I'm unsure.

 

[FullMoon]

.Also, if Greninja fully charges a Shuriken at the spacing where he can capitalize with a Fair/aerial and Robin recognizes it, Robin can short hop right over it, and Fair Greninja for the trouble, autocanceling in the process....unless the Shuriken endlag reduction was that significant. I'm unsure.

None of Greninja's aerials changed actually.

The shuriken was also a start-up reduction, not endlag.

Greninja probably shouldn't be charging shurikens too much anyway.

 

[Codaption]

Hola

While the Water Shuriken buff changed things, its effectiveness in this matchup is absolutely overstated. A few of you seem to be under the misconception that Robin being forced to approach is a bad thing. In actuality, Robin wants to approach and aggressive in this matchup, since that's how we get the big damage. We outrange you in the air and Robin's jab beats out most of your grounded options (which is extra bad because Greninja is vulnerable to Wind Jab). Honestly, this matchup isn't too difficult from my experience. FD is the only stage where Robin really struggles to charge Thunder, but barring that, Thunder will be a consistent threat. It's also pretty safe to say that we outdamage you by a ton, and we have a much easier time killing you than vice versa, meaning Robin has the room to make actually make mistakes in this matchup whereas Greninja... doesn't. The most effective thing you can do in this matchup is chase down Robin when he's in the air. You can get a lot of mileage out of uair since Robin's options against enemies from below aren't that great.

I'm not really one to fuss about matchup numbers since I think they're largely pointless, but I can say with certainty that Robin vs Greninja is 45 - 55 at best. Greninja is simply not comparable to characters who have clear cut advantages against Robin, such as Captain Falcon, Zero Suit Samus or Sheik.

@Dathx can shed more light on this matchup since has experience against Greninja.

Just gonna point something out which I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned by actual Greninja players, but I guess it just kinda got passed up.

Robin may want to approach in this matchup, but Greninja wants his opponent to approach in literally ANY matchup. While he can hold his own up close, he absolutely ADORES when people are forced to come at him, because he can camp you with shurikens until you throw your controller to the ground. They're not just bad because they keep you from charging Thoron, they're bad because they keep you from getting in- and if getting in is your game plan, then you're just playing straight into his.

And with that, I fade back into the shadows. Huzzah~

 

[Illusion.]

is the slowest character in the game while we're the 6th fastest along with a fast projectile, avoiding 's projectiles is easy and we can SS-cancel his jab. He's easily gimpable with Hydro Pump and also because of our great offstage game.

I really can't see this MU being any less than 60:40

I play a lot for fun and I know what he's capable of so I'll give my thoughts on that MU whenever I'm not feeling lazy.

 

[bc1910]

Just gonna point something out which I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned by actual Greninja players, but I guess it just kinda got passed up.

Robin may want to approach in this matchup, but Greninja wants his opponent to approach in literally ANY matchup. While he can hold his own up close, he absolutely ADORES when people are forced to come at him, because he can camp you with shurikens until you throw your controller to the ground. They're not just bad because they keep you from charging Thoron, they're bad because they keep you from getting in- and if getting in is your game plan, then you're just playing straight into his.

And with that, I fade back into the shadows. Huzzah~

I referred to this by saying Robin's approach isn't good enough but yes you're right. Forcing approaches is what Greninja wants to do and does very well now.

 

[PK Gaming]

Just gonna point something out which I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned by actual Greninja players, but I guess it just kinda got passed up.

Robin may want to approach in this matchup, but Greninja wants his opponent to approach in literally ANY matchup. While he can hold his own up close, he absolutely ADORES when people are forced to come at him, because he can camp you with shurikens until you throw your controller to the ground. They're not just bad because they keep you from charging Thoron, they're bad because they keep you from getting in- and if getting in is your game plan, then you're just playing straight into his.

And with that, I fade back into the shadows. Huzzah~

And as I said earlier, the effectiveness of its camping is limited (and practically non existent on stages that aren't final destination). Shuriken's have a finite limit in range as well, and I sincerely doubt Greninja can actually keep Robin out for an extended period of time when jumps + aerials cover so much distance (and Robin's aerials beat Greninja's). The damage you deal purely from camping Robin is actually pretty minuscule; most of Greninja's big damage should be coming from rushing him down and juggling (which Robin is actually vulnerable to). You're going to lose in a war of attrition if you opt to play defensively against Robin. Really, the sticking point in this matchup is that Greninja struggles to kill Robin.

is the slowest character in the game while we're the 6th fastest along with a fast projectile, avoiding 's projectiles is easy and we can SS-cancel his jab. He's easily gimpable with Hydro Pump and also because of our great offstage game.

I really can't see this MU being any less than 60:40

I personally can't see how it's 60:40 when Robin vs Sheik [1] or Diddy [2] is clearly 60:40 and Greninja's neutral game isn't anywhere near their level. It's worth noting that Sheik can actually camp the **** out of Robin with her needles. But I digress, the number isn't really important. We should be focusing on what both characters can do in this particular matchup.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

I could be way off-base with this, but in regards to Robin using aerials to approach, Greninja has a couple decent options that immediately come to mind. Utilt lowers his hurtbox while also having decent reach and speed if pivoted, spelling doom for any number of other characters who want to make arial approaches. There's also hydro pump, which I will promise out-ranges any of Robin's aerials, and pushes the opponent upwards for setting up juggle opportunities.

Honestly, this matchup really seems like it should be in Greninja's favor to me, and 60-40 doesn't sound unreasonable. The neutral is, apparently, up for debate, but having a very fast ranged poke on Greninja's side and being able to easily avoid any/all of Robin's own projectiles seems like this should put it in Greninja's favor, since this is a character who thrives on forcing opponents to come to him. Edgeguarding also appears to be in Greninja's favor, with hydro pump providing versatile recovery when on the defensive and Robin's elwind being relatively simple to gimp.

 

[FullMoon]

And as I said earlier, the effectiveness of its camping is limited (and practically non existent on stages that aren't final destination). Shuriken's have a finite limit in range as well, and I sincerely doubt Greninja can actually keep Robin out for an extended period of time when jumps + aerials cover so much distance (and Robin's aerials beat Greninja's). The damage you deal purely from camping Robin is actually pretty minuscule; most of Greninja's big damage should be coming from rushing him down and juggling (which Robin is actually vulnerable to). You're going to lose in a war of attrition if you opt to play defensively against Robin. Really, the sticking point in this matchup is that Greninja struggles to kill Robin.

Greninja can short hop double shuriken to catch your attempts to jump too you know. Also if your approach method is jumping towards him you're pretty much doing exactly what he wants you to. Greninja loves when people go above him because Up-Tilt and Up-Smash can punish the hell out of people who do that.

Greninja also doesn't struggle to kill Robin (or really, any character except maybe some of the floatier ones) that much. His kill setups are as plentyful as ever and Robin has a lot of lag that leaves him exposed when he commits to something to allow us to get those going. Also reminder that we have a kill setup from a throw now while also having one of the best dash grabs in the game. We can also edgeguard Robin pretty efficiently with Hydro Pump.

We won't be playing super campy all the time, Greninja wants to bait you into making a commitment that he can punish and shurikens are great for that. Once you leave yourself open, we're going to start punishing you for it

 

[PK Gaming]

Greninja can short hop double shuriken to catch your attempts to jump too you know. Also if your approach method is jumping towards him you're pretty much doing exactly what he wants you to. Greninja loves when people go above him because Up-Tilt and Up-Smash can punish the hell out of people who do that.

Greninja also doesn't struggle to kill Robin (or really, any character except maybe some of the floatier ones) that much. His kill setups are as plentyful as ever and Robin has a lot of lag that leaves him exposed when he commits to something to allow us to get those going. Also reminder that we have a kill setup from a throw now while also having one of the best dash grabs in the game. We can also edgeguard Robin pretty efficiently with Hydro Pump.

We won't be playing super campy all the time, Greninja wants to bait you into making a commitment that he can punish and shurikens are great for that. Once you leave yourself open, we're going to start punishing you for it

Robin doesn't want to jump directly above Greninja, don't be silly. The idea is to fast fall Fair which is a legitimately great spacing too, not to attack from above with... what exactly.

I'm not aware of these kill set ups, do you mind elaborating? I was under the impression that Greninja's ability to KO was below average. Just so you know, Robin's recovery is absolutely abysmal, but you're not going to be gimping him with Hydro Pump, since fast fall air dodge will cover it. You will be doing a lot of damage against Robin with aerials since his recovery is extremely linear, so getting him off-stage is imperative.

I understand, and I get that Greninja's punish game is good, but I just don't see the effectiveness of water shurikens setting the pace for the match. They're stage dependent, and you still have to commit to using them.

Putting all of that aside, are there any tips you can give us Robin players for this particular matchup? I've given out a few so I was hoping you could respond in kind.

 

[FullMoon]

Robin doesn't want to jump directly above Greninja, don't be silly. The idea is to fast fall Fair which is a legitimately great spacing too, not to attack from above with... what exactly.

I'm not aware of these kill set ups, do you mind elaborating? I was under the impression that Greninja's ability to KO was below average. Just so you know, Robin's recovery is absolutely abysmal, but you're not going to be gimping him with Hydro Pump, since fast fall air dodge will cover it. You will be doing a lot of damage against Robin with aerials since his recovery is extremely linear, so getting him off-stage is imperative.

I understand, and I get that Greninja's punish game is good, but I just don't see the effectiveness of water shurikens setting the pace for the match. They're stage dependent, and you still have to commit to using them.

Putting all of that aside, are there any tips you can give us Robin players for this particular matchup? I've given out a few so I was hoping you could respond in kind.

Spoiler: Oh man kill setups

D-Tilt -> Jump Cancelled Up-Smash is probably the most known one, the timing is pretty strict though, though it's easier if you're walking towards the opponent because that makes Greninja slide forward and right under the opponent, so you won't have to dash.

D-Tilt -> F-Air works as well and can catch people offguard, I don't think it's guaranteed until much later percentages.

Sour N-Air -> Up-Smash is easier to connect than the above, getting the sour N-Air can be a bit hard though.

Sour N-Air -> F-Air is an option if the opponent is sent offstage and you can't hit them with Up-Smash.

Up-Tilt -> Up-Air is probably the easiest kill setup for Greninja.

Up-Air Spike -> Down-Smash/F-Smash is pretty good if the opponent doesn't tech, it's pretty hard to tech too since it often catches people offguard and happens pretty fast.

D-Air -> F-Air

Meteor D-Air -> Up-Air Spike -> D-Smash/F-Smash

Charged Water Shuriken -> F-Air can get some pretty early kills if the shuriken drags the opponent offstage but it stops working at high percentages

Meteor D-Air -> Shadow Sneak works at high percents

Dash Attack -> F-Air can work up to 130% on Sheik if I'm not wrong, it's very DI dependant though.

Upwards Substitute -> Up-Air will often kill if the Substitute by itself won't.

D-Throw -> F-Air is now a true combo, but it can only be gotten through a dash grab because we need a running start

And then we have traps, Greninja can create a lot of 50/50 situations. Tried to dodge D-Throw > F-Air by airdodging? Too bad, I predicted that and now you fell right into a running Up-Smash. Airdodged after D-Tilt? Have a F-Smash/Shadow Sneak, etc.

There are probably more that I forgot.

As for the shurikens, I'm only saying from experience. I've locked down Robin by firing shurikens at him and him being unable to do anything because Thunder spells clashed with shuriken, I could duck under Thoron and Arcfire is short ranged. Plus eventually he runs out of ammo.

Airdodging Hydro Pump can be a bit of a problem, the pumps last longer than your airdodge (Robin is invincible for 25 frames, Hydro Pump lasts 28 frames assuming both pumps go towards Robin, which is not too bad of an option because Robin hangs out in the air for so long after Elwind we have enough time to get back on the ground and punish) so you can still get hit by it especially if you airdodge too early.

As for tips... I've started playing with Robin some myself but I don't know much to say about what he should do. Other than obvious stuff like don't overcommit too much of Greninja. The main advice I can give for fighting Greninja is "don't airdodge"

 

[PK Gaming]

Dath and Raziek talk about the Greninja mathup HERE

 

[FullMoon]

Dath and Raziek talk about the Greninja mathup HERE

Heh, even Raziek mentioned being camped out by Greninja.

Still, Jab by itself is not going to make things in Robin's favor, especially with us being able to prevent Wind Jab from killing us.

The point about firing Thoron against Greninja on reaction to the shuriken is a bit iffy though. If you have Thoron charged up it's then that Greninja needs to stop shuriken spamming and then try to do something else otherwise you're just asking to be punished. The fact that you have Thoron charged means we don't have to fear getting hit by Arcthunder combos which makes it significantly less scary to approach Robin if we have to.

We can also cause a bit of stalemate if we have the lead since if you have Thoron charged we can just stall the timer unless you come after us, Thoron is easy to react to and Arcfire is not going to reach us in most cases.

 

[Space thing]

Dath and Raziek talk about the Greninja mathup HERE

I was mentioned :D (Howler).

I don't remember actually trying to camp THAT hard. I mean, I don't think he really tried to approach me that much. I don't remember though, maybe I did.

It's not terribly hard to camp Robin on largeish stages in my experience though. I mean, why would it be? We stop Thoron from being charged pretty easily and it's not hard to avoid it even if it is charged. Just don't be brainless in your camping and it's fine. Arcthunder is more annoying for sure IMO.

I'm more worried about Robin in close quarters at this point. Those Levin's hurt.

 

[PK Gaming]

Oh speak of the devil, I actually found footage of Robin(Raziek) vs Greninja (Howler), though it was through online play

From what I could gather, camping didn't dominate match, which shoots down the "just camp Robin to win" argument. That said, Howler was able to pressure Raziek pretty badly with Water Shurikens, and it was really effective when he had the momentum. It was possible to charge thunder, though it was typically when Robin had knocked Greninja away or if the stage allowed it. As the matches demonstrated, Thunder isn't the crux of Robin's gameplay so Raziek was able to function without it being consistently charged. In fact, Robin was much better off relying on her normals than her projectiles, as (with the exception of arcfire) it was difficult to consistently land them against Greninja due to its mobility. It was difficult for Robin to get in throw her weight around with Levin Sword. Yes, I think can we say with certainty that Greninja won the neutral for sure, though not to an overwhelming degree imo. In terms of damage, Robin definitely had the advantage. Greninja consistently hit Robin more often, but Robin could land a few good hits and seriously close to gap during multiple points. A notable aspect of the match worth considering was down throw to wind Jab. It was able to consistently do considerable damage to Greninja, which begs the question— Was Howler unaware of Shadow Sneak or is it simply not a viable counterplay? Levin Sword aerials did work. Raziek was able to get a lot of mileage out of Levin Sword Fair, and it help prevent Greninja from walking all over Robin.

I will concede that I was flat out wrong about Greninja not being too good at killing. It was able to secure the KO on a fairly consistent basis.

 

[Space thing]

Oh speak of the devil, I actually found footage of Robin(Raziek) vs Greninja (Howler), though it was through online play

From what I could gather, camping didn't dominate match, which shoots down the "just camp Robin to win" argument. That said, Howler was able to pressure Raziek pretty badly with Water Shurikens, and it was really effective when he had the momentum. It was possible to charge thunder, though it was typically when Robin had knocked Greninja away or if the stage allowed it. As the matches demonstrated, Thunder isn't the crux of Robin's gameplay so Raziek was able to function without it being consistently charged. In fact, Robin was much better off relying on her normals than her projectiles, as (with the exception of arcfire) it was difficult to consistently land them against Greninja due to its mobility. It was difficult for Robin to get in throw her weight around with Levin Sword. Yes, I think can we say with certainty that Greninja won the neutral for sure, though not to an overwhelming degree imo. In terms of damage, Robin definitely had the advantage. Greninja consistently hit Robin more often, but Robin could land a few good hits and seriously close to gap during multiple points. A notable aspect of the match worth considering was down throw to wind Jab. It was able to consistently do considerable damage to Greninja, which begs the question— Was Howler unaware of Shadow Sneak or is it simply not a viable counterplay? Levin Sword aerials did work. Raziek was able to get a lot of mileage out of Levin Sword Fair, and it help prevent Greninja from walking all over Robin.

I will concede that I was flat out wrong about Greninja not being too good at killing. It was able to secure the KO on a fairly consistent basis.

Oh hey, I didn't know he recorded those matches. I should watch them later :D.

And I pretty much agree with what you said. Not much really to contest.

And I was aware of Shadow Sneak hitstun cancel, I just frequently forget it's there lol. Probably wouldn't have helped me much; I think Robin has enough time to punish with something if I do it against jab.

 

[FullMoon]

I actually didn't mean to make it sound like Greninja just camps and win, but I can see how you could've gotten that impression, my bad.

Overall, if I were to break down this MU...

Greninja wins the neutral even if it's not by much thanks to shurikens having great range and being able to create a lot of pressure. Robin generally wants to get close to Greninja and abuse his normals and the power of the Levin Sword and also his jab, but Greninja is also very good at punishing Robin for whatever mistakes he makes especially thanks to a lot of his moves being pretty lag or unsafe, meaning even if he's scary upclose he can't afford to mess up much.

When it comes to advantaged state, they're both pretty close I think. Robin has more immediate power and crazy reward out of Arc Thunder/Fire, but Greninja also has very damaging combos and thanks to his mobility he's able to chase Robin around very well once he hits advantage and so is able to stay at this state for longer than Robin usually can.

Robin gets juggled pretty badly I think, not much in the way to help him get down safely. Greninja has a better disadvantage thanks to Hydro Pump allowing him to mix up his landings while Robin himself will be too slow to catch up to him unless he has a Thoron charged up.

I don't think there's much of a question that Greninja wins the edgeguarding game. Robin's recovery is very linear while Greninja's is anything but. The best Robin can do is set up Arcfires at the ledge to make it harder for Greninja to get back on stage from there, but that's about it.

All of that seems to imply an advantageous MU for Greninja in my eyes.

 

[Raziek]

Hihi.

I feel it is worth stating that I have pretty minimal Greninja experience. I was caught off guard by a lot of gimmicks that I was simply just not aware of. Couple that with some input lag and general frustration over both of the previous (and not knowing I needed to ban Duck Hunt), and I feel like my set against Howler wasn't exactly the best representation of the match-up.

I would be interested in playing the match-up some more to get a better feel for how I would approach it, if anyone is interested in scheduling an evening session with me at some point.

I'm not really comfortable making a lot of specific claims without more time playing it under my belt. I don't like to claim **** I'm unsure on.

 

[Codaption]

I've noticed that Robin's "limited use" gimmick hasn't really been brought up, like at all. Losing access to moves that could otherwise really help Robin is not good for them.

At the same, though, tomes are a really strong item that put on fantastic shield pressure, so those should really be discussed in more detail. A good Robin can even combo into tome drops if they're paying attention to their move usage, and of course Bronze Sword can be useful for combos in its own right.

 

[FullMoon]

I've noticed that Robin's "limited use" gimmick hasn't really been brought up, like at all. Losing access to moves that could otherwise really help Robin is not good for them.

At the same, though, tomes are a really strong item that put on fantastic shield pressure, so those should really be discussed in more detail. A good Robin can even combo into tome drops if they're paying attention to their move usage, and of course Bronze Sword can be useful for combos in its own right.

I mentioned a lot of that in my first post about the MU.

 

[PK Gaming]

Hihi.

I feel it is worth stating that I have pretty minimal Greninja experience. I was caught off guard by a lot of gimmicks that I was simply just not aware of. Couple that with some input lag and general frustration over both of the previous (and not knowing I needed to ban Duck Hunt), and I feel like my set against Howler wasn't exactly the best representation of the match-up.

I would be interested in playing the match-up some more to get a better feel for how I would approach it, if anyone is interested in scheduling an evening session with me at some point.

I'm not really comfortable making a lot of specific claims without more time playing it under my belt. I don't like to claim **** I'm unsure on.

Sorry for throwing you under the bus like that. I honestly felt that it was a pretty helpful set all things considered, but I didn't consider how unfair it was to you.

Hopefully we can hash things out now.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Greninjas out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Greninja. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Greninja match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/415989/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/