Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[Laken64]

Sooooo.. our matchup spread just got even better.

There's a fair chance this could end up making Sheik a 55:45 mu at worst. I need to play it with the changes, but from the sound of it we now

- Force her approach
- Have fair that's safer in cqc
- Her fair reach got nerfed so she can't shield pressure as safely
- Have good range on our shield grab which may actually be an option now

She still
- Has better frame data and abuses it up close
- Can keep up with us in the air and on the ground
- Edge guards us effectively
- Combos the crap out of us

Thoughts?

I agree with this, today I fought against a decent sheik on 3ds, (which are very rare to see on 3ds but for some reason there's more after the nerfs) and with the removal of her 50/50s she couldn't kill me until 210/220 with a read. So rage is your best friend in this matchup since now even though she can combo you for days, lack of her 50/50 will have her fishing for reads, giving you more time to use rage to its full effect.

 

[Lawliet626]

I think bayo is one of those match ups where we can actually force an approach with or substitute doll / log due to her bullet arts
Let me explain, when i fight fox sometimes and he begins his laser spam and i feel like doing something different, I try to go for a substitute to purposely summon the doll, and slowly walk with it pushing it forward shielding me from lasers, usually the fox's get desperate and try to attack me, I haven't tested it out but we could try it with her bullet arts lol.

 

[bc1910]

Been labbing the hell out of our "iffy evens", Pikachu and Diddy.

Once you're wise to Pikachu's kill setups, he really has trouble ending stocks against us. It's not that hard to get around his (IMO overrated) edgeguarding with clever pump angles, not to mention Shadow Sneak, and you don't really have to worry about Thunder Jolt. Neutral is fairly equal between these characters, and I think clutches it out in advantage. He kills Pikachu too easily for this to be in Pika's favour.

Diddy is significantly harder. There are some neat tricks to the MU though. To sum up, the banana can really hamper our ground game while the air isn't safe due to Diddy being good at trapping landings. Diddy's Fair spacing is a nightmare to deal with (closest thing in the game to Sheik's prepatch Fair except it does 10 damage) and he has plenty of kill setups. Shurikens are useful against Diddy, but you can't charge them much because you'll get a monkey flip kick to the face. When Diddy is able to use Fair, Greninja's SH game can be completely shut down; like, you may as well not short hop near Diddy at all, because none of Greninja's aerials are fast enough to challenge Fair except Bair which hits too high. However when Diddy has a banana in hand, you can spam SH Nair and Fair pretty easily because both are safe on shield and you can block before he hits you with the banana (which is his only OoS option with banana in hand, except lolbarrels). You will usually powershield the banana and be able to punish with jab or Dtilt if Diddy tries to do anything except block after throwing the banana. Also, when Diddy hits your shield with a banana, jumping is a really good option. You can avoid all his standard follow-ups if you're quick enough and punish grab or Dtilt with FF Nair.

iStudy made this MU look pretty even when he played MVD, but IMO there was a serious lack of experience on MVD's side and he wasn't making anywhere near enough use of grounded monkey flip, which can really turn the tide in this MU.

I would say Pika is solidly even, while Diddy is slightly in his favour. I'll post my full opinion on Greninja's MUs in 1.1.5 later.

 

[bc1910]

Sorry for the double post but yeah, my full thoughts on Greninja's MUs in 1.1.5 below.



Characters in the final group are ordered from easiest to hardest, everything else is unordered. And if anyone's wondering, pre 1.1.5 Sheik was in another category called "Greninja fainted!".

 

[FullMoon]

Lucina being an advantage and Marth being even doesn't make much sense to me. The difficult part of the MU is getting through disjoints and in that field Marth and Lucina are basically the same. Tippers can kill us earlier yeah but it also means that if Marth mispaces something then it's easier to punish him than it is with Lucina.

I don't think Marth's tippers are enough to make him even while making us beat Lucina. They should both be in the same category.

 

[bc1910]

Oh I meant to move them both from +1 to 0 but I must have only moved Marth. Consider them both 0.

 

[Lawliet626]

Sorry for the double post but yeah, my full thoughts on Greninja's MUs in 1.1.5 below.

View attachment 101547

Characters in the final group are ordered from easiest to hardest, everything else is unordered. And if anyone's wondering, pre 1.1.5 Sheik was in another category called "Greninja fainted!".

I can agree with most of it, Although I see Duck hunt, falco and mewtwo as winning MU's while Mario, Falcon, Olimar and villager have always felt pretty even

 

[Illusion.]

I know she isn't being talked about right now, but I have to say out of excitement that the Sheik MU is so much more bearable. It's a -1/45:55 at worst now.

 

[bc1910]

I know she isn't being talked about right now, but I have to say out of excitement that the Sheik MU is so much more bearable. It's a -1/45:55 at worst now.

Yeah, it's incredible how much better this MU feels. Fair is no longer the answer to everything, it's easier to drift back outside needle range at high percent because of the range nerf, and Sheik just cannot kill the frog. Re-watching iStudying vs Mr R really showed me how much Sheik relied on the 50/50 against this character because he's so hard to hit with her other kill moves (or "kill move" at this point - Bouncing Fish). Meanwhile her weight nerf makes her ever more vulnerable to rage Uthrow, the landing lag buffs let us hit her shield more safely and she can actually be zoned with shurikens effectively.

Needles were the real tipping point in this MU I feel. I always said that we'd never be able to contest Sheik up close and we needed to learn how to get around needles. With needles being worse, this is so much easier. The fact that she can't kill us from grab any more is just a bonus.

 

[Y2Kay]

Been labbing the hell out of our "iffy evens", Pikachu and Diddy.

Once you're wise to Pikachu's kill setups, he really has trouble ending stocks against us. It's not that hard to get around his (IMO overrated) edgeguarding with clever pump angles, not to mention Shadow Sneak, and you don't really have to worry about Thunder Jolt. Neutral is fairly equal between these characters, and I think clutches it out in advantage. He kills Pikachu too easily for this to be in Pika's favour.

Diddy is significantly harder. There are some neat tricks to the MU though. To sum up, the banana can really hamper our ground game while the air isn't safe due to Diddy being good at trapping landings. Diddy's Fair spacing is a nightmare to deal with (closest thing in the game to Sheik's prepatch Fair except it does 10 damage) and he has plenty of kill setups. Shurikens are useful against Diddy, but you can't charge them much because you'll get a monkey flip kick to the face. When Diddy is able to use Fair, Greninja's SH game can be completely shut down; like, you may as well not short hop near Diddy at all, because none of Greninja's aerials are fast enough to challenge Fair except Bair which hits too high. However when Diddy has a banana in hand, you can spam SH Nair and Fair pretty easily because both are safe on shield and you can block before he hits you with the banana (which is his only OoS option with banana in hand, except lolbarrels). You will usually powershield the banana and be able to punish with jab or Dtilt if Diddy tries to do anything except block after throwing the banana. Also, when Diddy hits your shield with a banana, jumping is a really good option. You can avoid all his standard follow-ups if you're quick enough and punish grab or Dtilt with FF Nair.

iStudy made this MU look pretty even when he played MVD, but IMO there was a serious lack of experience on MVD's side and he wasn't making anywhere near enough use of grounded monkey flip, which can really turn the tide in this MU.

I would say Pika is solidly even, while Diddy is slightly in his favour. I'll post my full opinion on Greninja's MUs in 1.1.5 later.

you say that MVD is inexperienced in the Matchup, but didn't he eliminate amsa last summer? I can't remember if it's EVO or CEO

I know it's still been a while, but...

 

[bc1910]

you say that MVD is inexperienced in the Matchup, but didn't he eliminate amsa last summer? I can't remember if it's EVO or CEO

I know it's still been a while, but...

How does one set with an outdated Greninja build make him experienced?

Let alone the fact that if I'm not mistaken it happened at Apex 2015, which was over a year ago.

 

[Y2Kay]

How does one set with an outdated Greninja build make him experienced?

Let alone the fact it happened at Apex 2015 which was over a year ago.

I didn't say he was well experienced, but I think he has decent knowledge about the character compared to ESAM

Mr. R knows greninja like the back of his hand tho.

 

[bc1910]

I didn't say he was well experienced, but I think he has decent knowledge about the character compared to ESAM

Mr. R knows greninja like the back of his hand tho.

Yes but you said he's not inexperienced, which is still wrong. On what basis does MVD have decent knowledge?

ESAM seemingly had 0 knowledge about the character (apparently he put him bottom 10 pre-BEAST 6) at the time, so knowing more than that isn't much of an accomplishment.

I don't mean to be snarky but I'm getting kinda tired of making well-constructed posts only for people to ignore the content and pick up on tiny flaws (or in this case not even a flaw) that they don't agree with. I'd rather you offer your thoughts on the MU (whether you agree with me or not) than argue over how experienced MVD is.

EDIT: Y2Kay Regarding the below, don't sweat it, I just don't think it's hugely important whether MVD is totally inexperienced or slightly inexperienced. I'd rather just lab the facts on the MU itself, if you get what I mean.

 

[Y2Kay]

Yes but you said he's not inexperienced, which is still wrong. On what basis does MVD have decent knowledge?

ESAM seemingly had 0 knowledge about the character (apparently he put him bottom 10 pre-BEAST 6) at the time, so knowing more than that isn't much of an accomplishment.

I don't mean to be snarky but I'm getting kinda tired of making well-constructed posts only for people to ignore the content and pick up on tiny flaws (or in this case not even a flaw) that they don't agree with. I'd rather you offer your thoughts on the MU (whether you agree with me or not) than argue over how experienced MVD is.

My bad. Didn't mean to nitpick you like that.

My computer is stuck in an update so I can't comment on that MU

 

[C0rvus]

Sorry if I'm reading that chart wrong, but Greninja has a slight advantage over Mario? I personally struggle against Mario, but I can't see what Greninja has in that MU over Mario other than maybe killing earlier. My Greninja has never been very confident in CQC but Mario has a lot of fast buttons, good air mobility, and a reflector to discourage Shuriken camping. What do?

 

[Lawliet626]

Sorry if I'm reading that chart wrong, but Greninja has a slight advantage over Mario? I personally struggle against Mario, but I can't see what Greninja has in that MU over Mario other than maybe killing earlier. My Greninja has never been very confident in CQC but Mario has a lot of fast buttons, good air mobility, and a reflector to discourage Shuriken camping. What do?

You should try harassing mario with disjointed moves such as fair and be picky when you throw out shurikens, We can juggle him better than the vice versa due to Utilt with its disjoints, up air and upsmash plus his moves for landing aren't really the best.
We can also SSHC out of dthrow to avoid Utilt chains from mario.

 

[Jaguar360]

you say that MVD is inexperienced in the Matchup, but didn't he eliminate amsa last summer? I can't remember if it's EVO or CEO

I know it's still been a while, but...

MVD eliminated aMSa at Apex with Little Mac after losing with Duck Hunt game 1. Felix was the Diddy that knocked aMSa to losers bracket at EVO.

 

[Illusion.]

I'm starting to believe Diddy wins 55:45 rather than it being 50:50. I also still believe Pikachu is the same, but I'm always met with people swearing that it's 50:50.

 

[FullMoon]

MVD eliminated aMSa at Apex with Little Mac after losing with Duck Hunt game 1. Felix was the Diddy that knocked aMSa to losers bracket at EVO.

Wrong, aMSa beat Felix, he was knocked down to losers by FOW.

 

[bc1910]

I'm starting to believe Diddy wins 55:45 rather than it being 50:50. I also still believe Pikachu is the same, but I'm always met with people swearing that it's 50:50.

I think Diddy is 55:45 his favour. It feels harder than fighting Fox.

Pika feels much easier than Diddy though. About as hard as Fox or slightly easier. In my experience it's pretty much dead even. Also I know ESAM had no Greninja experience but iStudy also got caught by stuff he shouldn't have done (two thunderspikes, one of which cost him game 1) so it's not a bad set to use as an example of the MU. Pika overall is just not as scary a character as the ones Greninja loses to.

Dabuz put it well in his match analysis video - what makes Greninja scary for Pikachu is that his range and mobility makes him a character that says "commit to your kill option". Pika's kill confirms (which aren't very good anyway) don't have the range to be landed on Greninja very often. Meanwhile Greninja oozes kill power and has no qualms Uthrowing the rat off the top if he has to because he's so light.

Sorry if I'm reading that chart wrong, but Greninja has a slight advantage over Mario? I personally struggle against Mario, but I can't see what Greninja has in that MU over Mario other than maybe killing earlier. My Greninja has never been very confident in CQC but Mario has a lot of fast buttons, good air mobility, and a reflector to discourage Shuriken camping. What do?

Some people think it's even so don't worry. It's +1 IMO due to shurikens outcamping fireballs (as long as you don't charge them they're hard to cape on reaction, and if cape's baited it leads to a hard Nair or Fair punish) and Greninja's range. Greninja has range comparable to a swordfighter even on moves like Ftilt which really gives Mario trouble. His recovery isn't hard to gimp as long as you're careful not to get caped during Hydro Pump. Greninja's difficult to kill for Mario as well since Mario lacks kill confirms. They both have strong punish games. CQOn Battlefield and Dreamland it's probably even because of Mario's improved ladders (though with proper DI they still shouldn't be killing) but I feel we have the upper hand on the other stages.

 

[iVoltage]

Sorry for the double post but yeah, my full thoughts on Greninja's MUs in 1.1.5 below.

View attachment 101547

Characters in the final group are ordered from easiest to hardest, everything else is unordered. And if anyone's wondering, pre 1.1.5 Sheik was in another category called "Greninja fainted!".

What makes the cloud matchup so hard? I can see him having an advantage but I'm not putting it together myself.

 

[Lawliet626]

Anything on marcina and M2?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rosalina is analyzing Greninja at her sub-forum again. You can go to the following thread link if you have anything to contribute for the match-up.

http://smashboards.com/threads/415989/

 

[Knife8193]

Sorry for the double post but yeah, my full thoughts on Greninja's MUs in 1.1.5 below.

View attachment 101547

Characters in the final group are ordered from easiest to hardest, everything else is unordered. And if anyone's wondering, pre 1.1.5 Sheik was in another category called "Greninja fainted!".

I honestly think we're +1 on Cloud, interesting to see a different take on it though. I just feel Greninja has so many ways to get him offstage/gimp/force approaches that it could be in his favor (dash grab is super good for getting him offstage and if you catch his jump he's dead).

 

[bc1910]

I honestly think we're +1 on Cloud, interesting to see a different take on it though. I just feel Greninja has so many ways to get him offstage/gimp/force approaches that it could be in his favor (dash grab is super good for getting him offstage and if you catch his jump he's dead).

I think Cloud just has such an oppressive neutral (and arguably benefits more from platforms than we do because of Limit camping) that it's hard to even get him there in the first place. Also I think Fthrow has such weak knockback that it's pretty easy for him to drift back to the stage when he gets thrown off the stage through dashgrab. Maybe experimenting with Dthrow would work though.

On another note, Ray Noire posted an anti-M2 guide where he said that DK was Mewtwo's worst MU, then listed Yoshi, Bowser, Greninja, Kirby, and Mario as the next best choices.

As I've always considered Greninja vs Mewtwo to be even, I was surprised by this assertion. What do you guys think of the Greninja/Mewtwo MU?

 

[FullMoon]

I haven't fought a competent Mewtwo in forever so I can't tell anything about this MU since the buffs.

 

[Gunla]

Results:
- 50:50 (Unchanged)
- 55:45 (Unchanged)
- 50:50 (Changed for Lucina)
- 55:45 (Unchanged)
- 45:55 (Unchanged)

Welp, a surprise patch (and way too many other things) delayed this thread massively. We got some buffs, so it may not have been so major.

It's time to start this back up, and what better with two big faces of the new meta?

Spoiler: Session 10

Greninja vs. The Umbra Witch: Bayonetta!
The face of the meta right now and the #1 saltmaker. What else needs to be said?
Stages to Avoid: Town & City
Stages to Pick:

Greninja vs Not Greninja: Mewtwo!
Mewtwo's mobility buffs have pushed the cat to the roof, and now Mewtwo's got a major under it's belt. Previously, we won, but how does the MU hold up after all these buffs?
Stages to Avoid:
Stages to Pick:

 

[Illusion.]

On another note, Ray Noire posted an anti-M2 guide where he said that DK was Mewtwo's worst MU, then listed Yoshi, Bowser, Greninja, Kirby, and Mario as the next best choices.

As I've always considered Greninja vs Mewtwo to be even, I was surprised by this assertion. What do you guys think of the Greninja/Mewtwo MU?

That MU was (is?) honestly ass for Mewtwo. I've played that MU on both sides and I can tell you it wasn't good for Mewtwo.

I haven't played the MU ever since the patch, so it could definitely change. I'll try it out now that we're discussing it again.

 

[bc1910]

Results:
- 50:50 (Unchanged)
- 55:45 (Unchanged)
- 50:50 (Changed for Lucina)
- 55:45 (Unchanged)
- 45:55 (Unchanged)

Welp, a surprise patch (and way too many other things) delayed this thread massively. We got some buffs, so it may not have been so major.

It's time to start this back up, and what better with two big faces of the new meta?

Spoiler: Session 10

Greninja vs. The Umbra Witch: Bayonetta!
The face of the meta right now and the #1 saltmaker. What else needs to be said?
Stages to Avoid: Town & City
Stages to Pick:

Greninja vs Not Greninja: Mewtwo!
Mewtwo's mobility buffs have pushed the cat to the roof, and now Mewtwo's got a major under it's belt. Previously, we won, but how does the MU hold up after all these buffs?
Stages to Avoid:
Stages to Pick:

I really think we should put Pika to 50:50. ESAM just posted a MU chart where he listed the MU as even. Considering how he overrates Pikachu's MUs, and his experience in general, for him to say it's even is actually pretty big. And for me that means it's a potential 55:45.

I just don't think it should stay at 45:55 when we've had some great buffs and it wasn't really discussed. It really doesn't feel like that and the top players seem to agree. 45:55 would be like, Fox and Diddy IMO. Pika's even or better.

Bayo - Greninja is widely considered to be one of her worst MUs. He can keep her out, has a good grab game and good KO power, with the ability to kill from grab if required. He's also the only character who can consistently escape her death combos with SSHC. I think her obscene reward keeps this MU hard as she still racks plenty of damage, but once mastered we should win this 55:45.

Mewtwo - noted by Ray as bad for Mewtwo. I always thought it was even. Mewtwo hates people being underneath him and Greninja's Usmash kills him insanely early. Mewtwo can however stuff Greninja's zoning with Confusion and tends to force an approach. Confusion can at least be baited out for a big punish (usually Fair or Nair). Not sure how to rate this one.

 

[Y2Kay]

Ray is a pessimist, every thing he says must be taken with a bag of salt as of now.

His matchup spread as of 1.1.5

yeah..... not the most reliable source. I consider the Mewtwo - Greninja match up even as well

 

[Ludiloco]

So I got annihilated by a Bayo tonight

Like, through the two matches I dealt 70%. And I got death comboed off the top by double witch twist when he adapted his combo bc I was getting out of after burners.

I don't think that mu is even guys, I think we lose

 

[bc1910]

So I got annihilated by a Bayo tonight

Like, through the two matches I dealt 70%. And I got death comboed off the top by double witch twist when he adapted his combo bc I was getting out of after burners.

I don't think that mu is even guys, I think we lose

Not to call you out personally because I know everyone does this and I've done it myself, but please refrain from "I lost/won this MU really bad today so I think we lose/win". One bad set, which can happen against a character like Bayo, doesn't change the whole MU.

You can always DI double Witch Twist by the way, unless you get hit with Divekick when you're high up in the air (or you get Witch Timed).

Ray is a pessimist, every thing he says must be taken with a bag of salt as of now.

His matchup spread as of 1.1.5

yeah..... not the most reliable source. I consider the Mewtwo - Greninja match up even as well

Oh, okay.

I'm sort of inclined to ignore his opinion then, since that MU chart looks ridiculous.

 

[Guimartgon]

So I got annihilated by a Bayo tonight

Like, through the two matches I dealt 70%. And I got death comboed off the top by double witch twist when he adapted his combo bc I was getting out of after burners.

I don't think that mu is even guys, I think we lose

You lost to Nero's bayo though(#10 in PR when playing Cpt. Falcon, might rise if he starts going to stuff again and plays bayo, recently took second at a major), who is apparently way better than the other bayos in CO(For example I beat the supposed 2nd best bayo in friendlies consistently, never played nero's bayo though).

Since I haven't played him I can't say much but Ahjym(self renowned 2nd best bayo in CO) and I played a good amount and I learned a few things:

Neutral: Bayo's neutral is not good, like, she has Nair and a few other options but 90% of it is way for you to approach with Nair. Here you have two options: try to snipe with shurikens to force bayonetta to approach which is fine or you can literally hit her out of Nair on landing: bayonetta's Nair has her heel sticking out and shooting hitstunless bullets, you can hit her heel as she lands with either Dash Attack or Dtilt or you can get underneath her and utilt. Don't respect bayo's Nair greninja can beat it with ease.

Bayonetta approaches: It sucks that we have a poor OOS Game cause you have to shield a lot vs bayo. You of course need to abuse your movement to make her space stuff poorly and punish, but don't hesitate to just shield a lot of stuff.

Approaching Bayonetta: did she commit to a Nair? if she didn't then just don't unless you know you can grab, witch time is dumb and UpB is a frame 4 anti Air move that has no lag and allows her to land for free

Crouching: Greninja's crouch is sweet vs bayo, you can use it to dtilt her Nair and we can crawl out of the range of downward side B. also dodges most bullet stuff.

Killing: you can punish most of her approaches if you maneuver around them properly and pivot Fsmash her face, such as forcing a missspace on her downward side B. Uthrow is super reliable but kills slightly late without rage, but this is fine. You can also, again, punish nair and try to confirm off of dtilt but be aware of Frame 1 airdodge cause balanced. Also Bayonetta is, like ZSS, Fox or Ryu, one of those characters with amazing bairs and sometimes, when you are sitting in your shield on the corner, they like to just SHFF Bair over and over, just read the jump and usmash them if you know they won't witch time.

Gimmicks: I'm pretty sure I side Bd out of up B a few times but I haven't labbed windows.

Stages: I would never pick FD unless your plan is to spam WS for 6 minutes, which is viable to be honest, platforms can mess bayonetta up, BF, DL64 and T&C can be your friends, stay under a platform so that you are safe from Downward side B, it can also mess up her combo game and if you catch them landing Nair onto the platform (like full hop nair landing on the platform in neutral) you can chase and uthrow in the platform for relatively early kills.

Overall: you need to play a defensive game but knowing that some stuff you just punish for free, keep it safe, strings should be kept to a minimal unless you're 100% sure you can get her without getting bat within. If you get bat within, if the bayonetta reappears relatively close to you, jab can beat out most of her options.

Congrats on 2-0ing miiself twice though lol, great showing!

 

[Megamang]

DC was giving some Bayonetta tips on stream today, which were mostly general and apply to all MUs.

Don't get hit with divekick in the air. Don't try and contest it, or intercept... (MU Specific: Fair can outrange it, especially if you time a fair on their landing with it, or just are beside them. Its risky, but in later scenario's can be well worth it to net kills; she is light and with rage Fair kills her on the side pretty damn early if you hit in the right spot) and bayonetta won't get 'random' kills from 10% in neutral. These mostly start with divekick. Of course, Greninja can get out of all of the combos, but don't rely on that because it can be read and hard punished.

Close range, you can get WT'd from shurikans, so be safe about that. Dashgrab is a godsend in this MU, and as said makes it one of her worst. Don't get predictable with fair on shield or you'll get shield drop WT'd, which is the worst way to get hit since she can convert grounded ones to spikes a lot of the time, and otherwise gets to start a divekick combo, or just smash you to death if in the proper ranges.

Rage is super helpful in this MU, learn when you are trapped, and when DI can help you (always!) and you'll find yourself surviving to 150%, which means she shouldn't!.

 

[bc1910]

So I got annihilated by a Bayo tonight

Like, through the two matches I dealt 70%. And I got death comboed off the top by double witch twist when he adapted his combo bc I was getting out of after burners.

I don't think that mu is even guys, I think we lose

If this needed further debunking, Elexaio beat Griffith's Bayo 2-0 (and his ZSS 1-0) to cause a bracket reset. Elexaio forced Griffith off of Bayo and onto ZSS/Sheik. He's beaten Griffith 3-2 in a set against his Bayo before, as well.

When played properly this is definitely an even or advantageous MU for Greninja.

 

[Piipp]

Imo, what really makes this MU even or advantageous for us is the use of SSHC. Majority of her moves or combos are multi-hit, or just give you time to SS, so using it after a dive kick or ABK is extremely smart, as those are what start most of her combos, as well as using it for her F-air. But does anybody know how useful it is during witch twist? I could see it being one of Bayo's only multi-hit moves that Greninja couldn't escape as efficiently.

 

[Megamang]

This MU being high profile (as much as people hate Bayonetta, she gets views) and her being somewhat 'abusive' while we just SS out of a lot of her stuff... It makes me nervous. Not since ZSS has a MU had so much SSHC abuse, and it makes me think that it could be the thing that gets it killed, if people start complaining that their character isn't special enough to survive all the bayonetta jank while ninja gets to escape.


That said, if you need it to win, it is very useful in the MU. Play bayonetta offsteam

 

[Illusion.]

Not doing a write-up at the moment, but after playing the Mewtwo MU a bit, it looks to be 50:50 now. The speed increase really helps Mewtwo keep up with Greninja's great mobility.

 

[Megamang]

I still feel like our disjoints, ability to kill really early + his big hurtbox makes the killing descrepancy in our favor... but he is really good at killing too. You need to avoid the fair at all costs, and it is super fast. Just respect that space in front of m2. We can rage Uthrow him around the time he can do it to us if we keep a spacing game up, using shurikans and fair and ftilt to keep him out. Getting past him and landing a close dtilt can kill him extremely early, and you can set up for super early kills with dthrow and rolls...

The matchup just felt really hard from the mewtwo side when I played it, I'd personally rather be greninja but only by a little. Better player should win. Abuse the fact he doesn't rise from his double jump instantly, you can hit some burst range jump canceled Usmashes while he tries to lift away.

 

[Illusion.]

High level MU example of vs. : https://youtu.be/6bWyuQv9vt0