Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[Codaption]

Greninja's lack of reliance on shield should at least be a bit helpful against Ryu. After all... Collarbone Breaker is scary... ;~;

 

[Illusion.]

I've seen people disagree about the Mega Man MU, so I feel like that's one topic that we should rediscuss next time.

 

[Illusion.]

Unrelated to the MUs we're supposed to be discussing at the moment, but I felt like I should mention we're having a MU discussion on Discord with the Lucas and Ness mains.

Let's just say we're definitely gonna have to update the chart soon.

 

[Gunla]

Spoiler: Session 7 Results

55:45 Slight Advantage (Unchanged) - It seemed to be the general consensus from a large chunk of people. Wii Fit has the tools to do some things to Greninja, but we have a multitude of tools to deal with WFT. While successfully edgeguarding her isn't likely, we lead in the neutral. Being too aggressive will cost you, however.
Stages to Avoid: Battlefield/Miiverse/DL 64 - The stage gives Wii Fit more leg room to deal with tools. The BF platform layout also takes away our USmash option when they're on the platform.
Stages to Pick: Town & City - It's the general Greninja stage to go to. Benefits the frog pretty well and keeps us in the element.
Example - Venia VS John Numbers

55:45 Slight Advantage - Cloud's a dangerous foe, but we have the shuriken to snuff out limit charging and Blade Beam. Naturally, Cloud has his incredible tools and Limit Break is lethal if we let him combo into Finishing Touch, but Cloud also gets gimped quite easily/has to burn Limit Break offstage.
Stages to Pick: Final Destination - Your main concern here will be him spacing aerials, but Blade Beam becomes less of a concern and the field is much more linear.
Stage to Avoid: Smashville/Town & City - Avoid these, seriously. You're just giving Cloud the chance to charge LB on a platform and shield most things that come his way.

Session 8 (Now that the majority of patch notes are being found):

Greninja VS The Mixtape Master: Ness!
Ness is a monster in this game. With tons of tools to shutout characters and the iconic backthrow ending stocks at early %s, Greninja has had a hard time with Ness in the past. Earlier in the meta, he was listed as Even, but perhaps recent developments and hard facts might change that?
Current Rating: 50:50 Even
Stages to Avoid:
Stages to Pick:


Greninja VS "Come on, Reggie! Give us Mother 3!": Lucas!
Lucas, as of late, has become a sleeper threat in the Smash 4 metagame. Armed with a new nair and many other tools akin to his PK brethren in Smash, he's been a sizable threat at more tournaments at the local level. When he first appeared in Smash 4, we rated his MU as 55:45, with Greninja having a slight advantage. Is that the case now?
Current Rating: 55:45 Slight Advantage
Stages to Avoid:
Stages to Pick:

Please note: Next Session will be for review. We will review 4-6 MUs that have been covered in Season 3 so far, so please make some requests.

 

[bc1910]

I honestly don't feel like anything has changed with the Lucas or Ness MUs. +1/0 for Lucas and 0 for Ness should be fine. If we can get our **** together and edgeguard Ness with Hydro Pump consistently it should be in our favour but the Ness MU is one can of worms I'm not keen to open again.

I wasn't part of the Discord discussion so if things have actually changed feel free to correct me.

I understand. As long as we're not ignoring the fact that John is a better player I don't see a problem with using the matches for analysis. I find Venia overextends too far offstage and has lost many early stocks for it, when if he played a more patient defensive game he would probably put himself in a better position to win. Just my thoughts.

For next week, can I ask for input on a couple of matchups? I got my first top 8 at an East-side tournament this past weekend (MI is a really tough state) but my two losses were in matchups I either don't understand or am just terrible at.

In Winners I bodied a Ryu game 1, but he adjusted to stop getting hit by nair and up smash and I started playing scared in games 2 and 3. He ended up winning the set.

After winning a set in losers, I ran into the state's best Kirby who also proceeded to bop me, but neither game was close. I think I played scared every single game after being eliminated by the Ryu. I guarantee I played the matchup horribly, just want some tips for next time.

Can we possibly talk about these matchups next week? Kirby is becoming more relevant and Ryu is a top tier threat we should know how to fight.

I just saw Asdioh list Greninja among Kirby's losing MUs in the CCI thread and suggest that Greninja has a small advantage (+1 Greninja?). Perhaps he could give us some more detailed analysis?

@Emblem Lord might be kind enough to offer his thoughts on the Ryu/Greninja MU.

 

[Jaguar360]

Don't want to get too into this, but I thought that we should take a look at one of the few recent showcases of top level play in the Ness matchup:

iStudying lost 0-3, but all the sets came down to the last stock at close percents, exception of game 3 because of PK Thunder 2 + Hydro Pump ledge jank. I haven't seen the other matches between these two, but apparently iStudying won those according to Mr. R.

A couple things I noticed:

• The matchup seems pretty even in neutral. Greninja takes great advantage of his mobility, range and Shurikens in the matchup, while Ness's frame data makes him able to get good hits in with his quick, safe and strong aerials. Damage output ends up being similar, though in Greninja's favor by a little bit usually.
  
• Ness players can sometimes angle their PK Thunder to recover properly even after a Hydro Pump it seems. Hydro Pump is still very relevant in the edgeguard aspect of the matchup, but not as much as I thought or had experienced at least.
• Ness' own edgeguarding might be a little underrated. Ness can take advantage of the fact that Hydro Pump doesn't have a front-facing hitbox and use his quick aerials (particularly N-air and maybe D-air on a read) to edgeguard well. PK Thunder 1 is also annoying, though not super detrimental for the matchup or anything.
• Ness kills better and earlier overall thanks to B-throw and U-air primarily, though Greninja does have good kill setups of his own and can use his U-throw as a crutch at around 135%-150% depending on the rage and ceiling (on the Wii U version at least).

I used to think that this was a 55-45 in Greninja's favor, but after a couple months and seeing this match and other Ness matches with FOW, I can't see this being anything but dead even. I can't see how either character wins the matchup when they both have so much to destroy each other with and go close to even in nearly every respect.

I'm curious to hear @istudying's thoughts on the matchup.

 

[Asdioh]

I just saw Asdioh list Greninja among Kirby's losing MUs in the CCI thread and suggest that Greninja has a small advantage (+1 Greninja?). Perhaps he could give us some more detailed analysis?

Yeah, I'd say Greninja beats Kirby for the same reason most characters do: mobility.
Kirby is definitely scary for Greninja, but only when he's right in your face. In order to be right in your face, he has to get there, which is the hard part. You just have to prevent him from doing that.You might have to play extremely lame, which most people don't want to do, which is why a lot of people overrate Kirby's viability. But when you play as lame as possible, he struggles in most matchups. Just imagine him kind of like Ganondorf in that regard, as strange as it seems to compare the two.

So up close, Kirby has a frame 3 Jab to match yours, and frame 4 Uptilt/Dtilt, frame 6 grab of course beats yours. You don't want to shield in this matchup, as you know, since Greninja's OoS game sucks. Kirby has a devastating Uptilt combo on Greninja, but Shadow Sneak ruins it, as long as there's a platform above you. You might not want to go to FD for this reason, but FD is at least good for running away. Keep him out with Fair, Jabs, Dtilt, especially Ftilt, and lots and lots of Shurikens. Fair outranges everything Kirby has in the air, but obviously requires a lot of precision on Greninja's part. Bair comes out faster than Kirby's fastest aerial, which is his Bair, so if Kirby's facing toward you, you outspeed him pretty badly air-to-air. If you're on the ground and Kirby's above you, you don't want to shield. You want to walk, run, or roll away. You can punish his landing if you have the timing down, or you can just do retreating attacks/shurikens. If Kirby's on the ground and you're above him, just do whatever it takes to land. If you're both in the air, your aerials are generally slower but have better range, since none of his are disjointed. If you're both on the ground, Ftilt outranges everything but his smashes, which are high risk/reward in neutral, since they're all very punishable on shield.

If he gets your power, it helps him a lot with his poor approach game, so try to avoid letting him Inhale you. Inhale is very risky in neutral, especially since Greninja shouldn't be sitting in shield, so that should be easy enough to avoid. The best times for Kirby to Inhale are: as a true combo from Uptilt, or when Greninja's having his shield pressured on a platform (particularly Battlefield platform, it's very easy to land Inhale when people are on these platforms) or as a ledge coverage option. A well-spaced Inhale beats ledge stand, ledge jump, and ledge attack. It loses to ledge roll, and falloff->jumpback aerials. Greninja has no good aerials for this option, though. Be careful getting baited here, Inhale's endlag has been reduced a lot through patches, so he can Inhale when you're on the ledge, then predict your ledgeroll and do a reverse Fsmash. That's a fun thing!

Uhhh... be careful recovering because you can die and stuff. Don't be afraid to edgeguard Kirby; his recovery goes far, but it's extremely vulnerable compared to say, Meta Knight. He is extremely slow in the air, both vertically and horizontally, and he has no good aerials to cover himself when recovering like MK does, and no fast UpB like MK or even Cloud have. He's far more susceptible to footstools than people realize, and Final Cutter is so slow that you can Bair (from behind), Hydro Pump, or even Dair him if you have the timing down. Watch out for Kirbycide (though I think you can break free and footstool him, most characters can) and maybe use Shurikens to try to force him to recover low. The only real option Kirby has when recovering is to spam airdodge. If he's recovering from the side, he has a chance, but if he's forced to recover low, it should be at least free damage for you, if not a stock.

Did I miss anything?

 

[Y2Kay]

I mean it's kinda obvious that this is a bad matchup for Kirby.

One thing people apparently don't know is that Kirby's crouch does not work on any variation of shuriken( I usually charge my first one just to catch them trying to duck)
Kirby really can't get you if you use your shurikens right. But whatever you do, DON'T let him get close to you. I cringe whenever I see Venia throw himself at MikeKirby, trying to combo him and lose the match because of it. Just get away and camp him.

 

[bc1910]

Jaguar360 I mostly agree with your analysis. One small thing is that I think Greninja has the upper hand in neutral (as he does against most characters, frankly) because his mobility and shurikens make it difficult for Ness to hit him. Ness is renowned for having a poor neutral game (for a high tier). The reason I think this MU is even is that Ness' damage output and kill potential are incredibly good, good enough to offset losing the neutral a few times. A shield camping Ness is hard to hit and very easy to die against because so many of his OoS options kill. And yeah it should be noted that this is the first time istudying has lost to S1-14, their previous matches would suggest a slight Greninja advantage but istudying is probably the better player.

Asdioh Thanks for your input! I agree with everything you said. Inhale makes this MU pretty winnable for Kirby because he can force the approach if he gets percent/stock lead. I think it's vital not to let him copy Shurikens. Otherwise, Greninja should win by laming out and taking advantage when he does get a hit.

 

[bc1910]

Ignore - stupid phone.

 

[Bartolon]

Ok just to clear some things up, Istudying and I have been going even for some time now, I think all our sets combined that we've ever had, we're dead even. Before this Avalon he won the sets we had at GGWP before that I won WF and GF in a different tournament. And now he won winners semi's and I won the losers finals. Felt like sharing cause it's starting to annoy me.

 

[Illusion.]

We did a JMU discussion on Discord with the Ness and Lucas mains about a week ago, pretty much everyone who chimed in agreed that Greninja is tough for both of them. A couple Ness mains claimed Shurikens shut them down, the Lucas mains said Greninja is "tricky" because of his speed and movement options. Both of them can be edgeguarded really well, though Lucas is harder due to his tether.

Here's a set I had with the best Ness in my state: http://youtu.be/lhjBXP_mn0o

Gonna have to say it's in Greninja's favor 55:45 for both.

 

[bc1910]

We did a JMU discussion on Discord with the Ness and Lucas mains about a week ago, pretty much everyone who chimed in agreed that Greninja is tough for both of them. A couple Ness mains claimed Shurikens shut them down, the Lucas mains said Greninja is "tricky" because of his speed and movement options. Both of them can be edgeguarded really well, though Lucas is harder due to his tether.

Here's a set I had with the best Ness in my state: http://youtu.be/lhjBXP_mn0o

Gonna have to say it's in Greninja's favor 55:45 for both.

This is interesting because (and I genuinely don't mean this to sound like an "I told you so" moment) I always felt the Ness MU was slightly in our favour. You can see my arguments on this several pages back in this very thread. At the time I was pretty much shouted down by both Ness and Greninja players and we settled on the MU being even as pretty much a compromise, when everyone actually thought that Ness or Greninja won it (just couldn't agree on who).

I think Ness is a tough MU but still in our favour. Lucas I find slightly easier, he doesn't ooze kill potential in the same way Ness does. Ness' PKT1 juggling is still really dangerous and random PKT2s can slaughter you. Ultimately though, Greninja can shut Ness down pretty hard with zoning as the Ness players suggested. Also we have Substitute, which is a unique way of dealing with PKT1 and very effective if Ness tries to use it offstage.

 

[HoSmash4]

Advice for fighting sheik as Greninja?Serious answers please I want to do this matchup.

 

[Illusion.]

Advice for fighting sheik as Greninja?Serious answers please I want to do this matchup.

Pick a different character.

 

[Jaguar360]

Advice for fighting sheik as Greninja?Serious answers please I want to do this matchup.

I'm not particularly well-versed in this matchup or anything, but I'll try to answer. I think that we should try to be pretty aggressive in this matchup and maximize our damage output so that we can get the kill as soon as possible. Shurikens aren't as useful in this matchup as most other matchups since Needles beat them out with their faster speed, but they're still useful when Sheik is in disadvantage to pressure her. I think that Greninja's best doing SHFF N-airs, F-airs and pivot (regular, perfect and sliding) f-tilts in neutral for the most part. Because of this, I think that mid range is the best place to be in this matchup, using the range of Greninja's legs, sword and water to try and outspace Sheik, but Sheik controls all ranges with the combination of needles and f-air so the neutral is difficult to win.

Be sure to have your kill setups down since that's probably the only thing keeping this matchup winnable for Greninja. Look out for sourspot N-air -> U-smash and D-tilt -> U-smash conversions, along with other stuff like running D-throw --> F-air, D-tilt -> F-air, U-tilt -> U-air, etc. Greninja can also fall back on his U-throw to kill, unlike Sheik, so if she's around 150% (or earlier with rage) like out for grab opportunities.

I guess I would also say to try not to go too deep for edgeguards in this matchup since Sheik's recovery is so safe. I think Greninja should stick to Hydro Pump attempts and ledge trumps in this matchup as far as edgeguarding goes.

 

[BigHairyFart]

If you shield Bouncing Fish, you can follow Sheik and U-Smash her, which may score a kill.

 

[FullMoon]

I might give my thoughts on Ness later since I just got to have experience with one of Brazil's best Ness players one of these days.

But right now I want to suggest Dedede for the next MU discussion, I've heard of a lot of frogs struggling with the penguim and thankfully, Brazil is infested with them, which means I have a good understanding of the MU and I could contribute to it.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja beats D3 in nearly every way but it's a hard MU to get used to because Greninja lacks a brainless way to reflect Gordos. D3 benefits massively from MU inexperience (and online lag...) but doesn't do that well against us. +1 or +2 Greninja overall.

 

[Steve.Stone]

Yeah how come sometimes an uncharged shuriken will send back gordo and sometimes a fully charged one won't? What determines it?

 

[FullMoon]

Fully charged shuriken does less than 2% per hit until the last hit, you need to do at least 2% with a move to be able to reflect Gordos.

 

[BigHairyFart]

My vote for next discussion is for any of the following:

 

[bc1910]

Mewtwo and Rosalina would be my vote.

 

[Illusion.]

Falco and Falcon have my vote.

 

[Lawliet626]

/
Would be nice to discuss, especially since Sakurai just loves buffing FE characters for every damn patch.

 

[Codaption]

Marth and Lucina would be pretty good ones to go over, they both got some nice stuff from 1.1.4 that could change things a bit.

 

[Y2Kay]

I don't mind mewtwo, it's a character I actually know well lol

 

[Gunla]

Spoiler: Session 8 Results

- 50:50 Even (Unchanged) - Discussion leaned towards a +0/0.5 lead for Ness with a bit more results for even. We have the tools to work in neutral and edgeguarding, but Ness's KO power and edgeguard tools are mighty.
Stages to Avoid:
Stages to Pick:

- 55:45 Slight Advantage (Unchanged) - Discussion focused on Ness but Lucas was touched upon. Despite Lucas's combo options, we dominate him harder than Ness and lock him down further.
Stages to Avoid:
Stages to Pick:

Session 9: Review Time!
For this session, we'll be covering the following MUs from Season 3, and three requested MUs that hasn't been featured for Season 3 yet:

Spoiler

Season 3 MUs:
Greninja vs The Time Bomb: - Current Rating: 50:50
Greninja vs The Mascot: - Current Rating: 45:55
Greninja vs The "He Got Buffed Again?!": - Current Rating: 55:45

Past MUs:
Greninja vs The Falchions: / - Current Rating: 50:50/55:45
Greninja vs The "World's Best Crouch": - Current Rating: 55:45

Something New:
Greninja vs The Umbra Witch (NEW!): - Current Rating: N/A

You're free to discuss any of these MUs during the current session.

 

[bc1910]

I would say Ness discussion leaned toward +0.5 for Greninja. It's fine as an even MU though. S1-14 just beat iStudy in Grand Finals at GGWP IV so it's clearly a volatile MU winnable for either party.

A great example of high level Greninja vs Pikachu occurred with ESAM vs iStudy. There was clearly a lack of MU knowledge on ESAM's side but we got some good examples of how the characters interact. If pushed, I would say Pikachu does have the upper hand slightly so 45:55 is fine. This is potentially 50:50 though.

I don't have experience fighting a good Bayo, sadly. On paper, Greninja is one of the best equipped characters to fight her - short, forces her to approach, strong grab game and a unique combo breaker in Shadow Sneak. I can see him countering her or going even, I would be surprised if this were a MU he lost.

 

[Proteun]

The chart says we're 55:45 with DK as of now, but I think that should be much more in our advantage. DK has no way of getting around Shurikens safely.

 

[Ludiloco]

My old main vs my new main

I have to say that this mu flat out sucks for Dedede. I have good exp vs one of the best Dededes in the country, and also have some old experience from the other side.

Dedede is terrible in this mu for a few reasons:

1. He cannot reliably use gordos. Uncharged shurikens send them back at a safe distance, so even if he's setting them up at the ledge while we're recovering we can knock them away if we're high enough. The only time he can really use them is when we're above him and approaching from the air, which for one we don't have to do and is also incredibly telegraphed and we can just use our double jump to retreat.

2. We force his approach, which he's terrible at. Shurikens choke off Dedede's grounded approaches minus running and shielding, but since he's so slow and dopey we can just go around him or over him if he gets too close, run away and do it again. He can't block everything if you're mixing up the timing of shurikens. This almost forces him to approach from the air, but his only landing/spacing tools in the air worth anything are fastfall nair (which you can avoid by not committing to grounded options when he's above you), inhale (which eats you if you shield ff nair too much), and back air which is incredibly slow but still probably his best option for pressure. If Dedede is floating above you using one of these, you have two great options. You can get out of there, or you can just jump up and up air him (up smash also works but that is committing to a grounded option he can just wait out with his floats).

3. We combo him hard and kill him relatively early. If you're not nailing Dedede with like 50 up airs per game you're playing the matchup wrong. He's the absolute perfect character to be comboed into oblivion: he's huge, he's heavy, and he's a fast faller. Not to mention his jumps take him almost nowhere, so jumping out of setups is incredibly hard for Dedede unless they are paired with an air dodge. Our kill setups work on Dedede for eternity, and since his jumps are so bad you can probably catch him with a ton of air dodge reads.

Things you should be aware of though: Dedede is really bad against a mobile character with such a great zoning and combo game, but he doesn't have nothing in the matchup. Dedede has the ability to pressure us at midrange better than we can to him, as his jab and f-tilt reach pretty far and can set up strings (jab 2 into grab is a thing).

Dedede's ledge traps are deadly and what net him a lot of early kills. Dedede will place a gordo at the ledge, which works similarly to ROB's Gyro setup. If you getup, getup attack, or jump you will be hit by the gordo and sent back offstage. If you wait, the gordo can stage spike you. If you roll, Dedede will cover this with a down smash that will kill super early. If you're in a panic situation, choose to be hit by the gordo every single time UNLESS Dedede is charging f smash. The safest thing to do when you're not panicking is to drop off the ledge and wait for the gordo to drop off or jump up and hit it back at Dedede. The move only has to deal 2% damage, so the last hit of up air can work as well as a fair if timed correctly. Getup attack should also send the gordo back at Dedede, but you may trade with it. Just a few options to consider.

From all this analysis though, I really feel Greninja does a fantastic job of choking Dedede's options. I would consider this mu 60:40 at worst for Greninja, possibly extending into 65:35 territory.

 

[Illusion.]

Just gonna keep this short.


55:45
None of his buffs are significant enough to warrant a change in the MU. He still gets edgeguarded and combo'd relatively easy, his disjoints and sheer power are forces to reckon with.

50:50
Marth mains I've talked to (just 2) think they lose, I don't think that's the case after having played quite a few Marths. Their aerial frame data and range can keep us on our toes in the air, while our mobility, projectile, and edgeguarding excel here.

55:45
Quite a controversial MU, DDD can be tough to fight it seems. FullMoon has lost to a DDD in his region once or twice, Venia lost to DDD (forgot his tag) at this past KTAR, and I had struggled with the DDD in my region for quite some time. While he does get juggled for days, he's just hard to kill, and he can kill you relatively easy because of rage if you aren't careful.

From what I've learned, you have to camp him to win, going in to capitalize on mistakes. Shuriken reflects gordos and that's something you should keep in mind when you're camping. Don't let him get back onstage for free, his aerial mobility is really bad and you should take advantage of it.

50:50
We had a character crew battle on Discord vs. the Umbra Witches and the frogs came out on top 3-0. Don't really know much about this MU to say who's favor it's in really, but something to note is that we can Shadow Sneak out of, I think it's, her side b. This is a godsend because it means we can escape the 0-death cheese. We might even win this 55:45, but I still think it's too early to tell for sure.

??:??
Haven't played this MU enough to tell.

45:55/50:50
I've only played a handful of good Pikachu players and each time it was a little rough, mostly since I don't play this MU very often. At worst, it's in Pikachu's favor, but it can very well be 50:50. From what the Greninjas that are experienced in this MU told me is that Hydro Pump is a great tool to use against Pikachu's Quick Attack even onstage. Shuriken also clanks with Thunderjolt, so the projectile war is really just a stalemate; footstool combos are completely viable in this MU, and F-air outranges pretty much everything in Pikachu's aresnal. However, Pikachu has great combos and frame data to overwhelm us especially since our OoS game is bad.

Leaving iStudying vs. ESAM here as the MU example for obvious reasons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vAN9h6yvtA

 

[FullMoon]

55:45
Quite a controversial MU, DDD can be tough to fight it seems. FullMoon has lost to a DDD in his region once or twice

Just gonna add to this, I had no MU experience back when that first happened. After I understood the MU I beat the Dededes in my region quite cleanly

I'm positive this MU is +2 for us as long as you're patient and catch Dedede when they're trying to land after being sent up. What made me lose the first time I went against DDD was that I kept trying to catch them with Up-Smash while they were trying to land just for them to weave out and B-Air me in the face.

 

[TheblackGreninjaplayer]

Welp,this gonnna be my 1st MU analysis, hope this goes well and that i don't give incorrect info and also, the MU is: the ninja vs the witch LET'S-A-GO !

Da neutral: IMO, i think that we can should play the way that Gren plays in neutral A.K.A (Zone with shurikens,Space with Fair etc.) since bayo has problably no options to force us to approach, but maybe her nair can be one and bullet arts, soooooo uh, we should capitalize on these options since 's nair is very good.

Our fair outranges every of her aerials except maybe nair or bair, because of 's terrible frame data ( you can see it here) kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Bayonetta shielding should not be a problem but you just outspace and punish but bayo can pressure us in shield.

Ex: We have a frame 3 jab vs a frame 9 jab, her smash attacks are slow and have low priority , her fastest move is utilt at frame 7, her rolls are slow, and we just have a better frame data than her ? ( no sarcasm) AMEN. Oh, and her aerials are kinda fast tho.

We should NOT be playing very offensive because of witch time, cauz if we don't play safe, we DIE. If we get countered at the ledge, we DIE. If we get combo'd, we use SSHC ( shadow sneak hitstun cancel) it messes up her combos.

is like that annoying bug that you can't kill when it's here. She's a pain to edgeguard, we can use hydro pump, it's won't do anything, imo, our best option would we to try to snipe her jump and get her far offstage. When we are getting edgeguarded, we should maybe try to mixup our hydro pump angles so we don't get dair'ed by or just getting nair'ed.

We maybe should stay in Long to Mid-range to maybe zone or space .

We can also crouch under bullet climax.

We should try to choose stages with High cellings to survive 's combos that get you up in the air.

Her only OOS option(s) are dtilt, utilt and grab , who all come out at frame 7, i dunno if SH fair can hit and other OOS options are nair and jab who both come out at frame 9. We could say that her OOS options are bad or average. So could try to pressure her in shield and frame trap her.

We should also try to do only true combos because with witch time or bat within, can escape and punish our combos.

is a fast-faller yadda yadda we can combo her easily.

Da verdict: (I'm so sure that i missed many things, gave incorrect info, but you can just correct me. K ?) can zone bayo with shurikens no problem, but can do the same with bullet arts and nair, has no problem getting back onstage, is forced to play safe because of witch time, and can pressure because of her bad OOS options and bad rolls , we can escape her combos with SSHC, can combo us hard because of our fast-faller weight.

Sooooo i think that Gren maybe wins this MU 55:45 or 60:40 ( like that would be a thing).

 

[Codaption]

To go off of what TheblackGreninjaplayer said:

-Bayonetta actually doesn't have bad rolls, since Bat Within comes out super fast (literally frame 1 on her airdodge and spotdodge). Both of these should be punishable if you catch it using a move with low cooldown, otherwise it's pretty much just back to neutral.

-Nair and Uair are solid when combined with Bullet Arts, especially since neither of them have much langong lag and the ridiculous active hitboxes help to cover her somewhat. You should be able to catch her Nair by running underneath her, though, and punishing with Uair or Usmash. Her own Uair is a bit tricker, though, as it'll win the trade with yours (assuming it doesn't have disjoint, which I doubt but honestly can't say for sure) and timing Usmash might be a bit trickier. The two extra frames of landing lag in conjunction with this might make a grounded punish more worthwhile.
You could also try countering Bullet Arts with a yolo Substitute, but considering the weird timing on her Bullet arts for these moves and Substitute's lag this probably isn't all that useful.

-Honestly, I can see Hydro Pump kinda messing with her offstage. Not as badly as, say, cheesing Pkthunder but it should still be able to force her to burn her various recovery options.

-You might be able to run under Bullet Climax, but I don't know how much this is used in high level so that might not be too relevant.

-This is a note and a question at the same time: can you di out of Dthrow-> Usmash at kill percent? Floaties, maybe, but her being a fastfaller I can't see her being able to pull it off.

-Bair should be a great tool here, as it outspeeds literally everything she has barring Witch Twist (Which should be outranged and if I read correctly can be escaped with SSHC anyway).

 

[Ludiloco]

Sooooo.. our matchup spread just got even better.

There's a fair chance this could end up making Sheik a 55:45 mu at worst. I need to play it with the changes, but from the sound of it we now

- Force her approach
- Have fair that's safer in cqc
- Her fair reach got nerfed so she can't shield pressure as safely
- Have good range on our shield grab which may actually be an option now

She still
- Has better frame data and abuses it up close
- Can keep up with us in the air and on the ground
- Edge guards us effectively
- Combos the crap out of us

Thoughts?

 

[Lawliet626]

Now she can't kill us for **** unless she gets a read a soft nair/ Fully charged needles into bouncing fish, before if we managed to live outside of the 50/50 kill set up range, we could easily live till 200%, now we easily outlive her, and that also gives us rage which we can abuse.

 

[Guimartgon]

I wish I could expand on this right now but I don't have the time. Essentially Bayonetta's best OOS is UpB at frame 4. So yeah non of our OOS beat it other than maybe our only true OOS, jab.

 

[TheblackGreninjaplayer]

So, does this mean that my analysis had some errors in it ?

 

[Guimartgon]

Only slightly. Due to Frame 4 Up B I feel like it's better to run away from bayonetta most of the time without committing to too many jumps and shields. Specially cause her Up B doesn't make her free fall and she can throwout a bair while falling.