Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[Codaption]

I wouldn't say that Bowser's new grab combo would do much to influence the matchup. Keep in mind that this is a character with no grab setups whose greatest weakness is getting in on his opponents.

As for Yoshi... you'd be surprised to hear that his options against shield aren't all that good. The only thing you really should be worrying about is Dair, but honestly I can see Greninja being able to bat him away with usmash or maybe utilt. That being said, it's not like Dair is his only option- he can use his grabs to set up tech chases on platforms, space out Fair or even run past your shield to catch you by surprise with a reverse Yoshi Bomb.

 

[Rubiss]

Okay I'm bored so I'll do my write up. We have two PR Yoshis here in Michigan, so I get decent practice in this matchup. They both play a little differently as well, so I have experience against several playstyles.

Something to note is Yoshi likes to spend a lot of time in the air. Yes, he may occasionally back off and throw eggs but our shurikens (especially when we get that magic short hop height that we can clip his head with them if he stays grounded OR catch his jump) are basically going to put the onus on him to approach in the matchup, and Yoshi generally approaches from the air. This is fantastic for us, but we have to abuse it correctly. Up smash is such an amazing tool in this matchup, and if the Yoshi you're playing is overly aggressive you can seriously just run under them as they're trying to land and up smash when they run out of options. Nair is also amazing for covering Yoshi landings, as well as pivot smashes and grabs. I believe when it comes to the neutral, we win this matchup.

When it comes to edge guarding things get a little hairy. Yoshi's fair is incredible offstage and I highly suggest you be incredibly careful when going up against it (read: don't go offstage). Against a Yoshi with rage I have been hit low enough where I was unable to recover at 40%. This means very sparingly should you be shadow sneaking to the ledge, and you should be mixing up your recovery to stay as far from Yoshi as possible. A Yoshi that knows the matchup can trade his fair with shadow sneak and spike you every time.

The good news is, however, we don't have to go offstage against Yoshi to edge guard him. Yoshi REALLY struggles to grab the ledge, and most Yoshis will just use their heavy armor jump to power past the ledge while usually taking not much more than minor damage. We, however, have two very fast, disjointed, and powerful smash attacks that can hit him for devastating effect regardless of how he chooses to come onto the stage. If the Yoshi is trying to egg and snap the ledge, f smash breaks his eggs and smacks him out into the blast zone, hopefully for him he saved his jump! I find walking away from the ledge is a good way to bait this. If he tries to super armor jump, up smash covers it really well if you time it right. Just be careful that if you do it too early Yoshi will be able to armor through hit one and nair you before you can get hit two out. Annoying. If Yoshi is choosing to ignore both of these options and recover high, hydro pump can really screw with his momentum and cause him to do unsafe things (if you can catch a down b with hydro pump, oh man is it hilarious). Offstage play Yoshi dominates, but edge guarding is even or maybe in our favor. Another option to consider! Yoshi can double jump past the ledge and neutral b you if you're too close. This puts you offstage and in great danger of death at high %. Learning how to mash out of the egg and avoid a potential f-air is good, but it's better just to avoid this situation entirely.

Yoshi is somewhat annoying to combo, but the good news his he isn't really able to armor jump out of up air unless you barely have him in the hitbox. So our combos work pretty well on him. Just be careful about overextending, down B will kill you super early if you go for greedy up airs. We are a delight for Yoshi to combo too, but a little more awkward than the other fast fallers. Just be aware of f-air in neutral and its ability to pop you up if you don't block it or miss the tech. You must also be aware of his jab setups, do not give him an air dodge and do not block for too long (down b will break your shield). If you mash jump Yoshi shouldn't be able to kill you with anything guaranteed. Yoshi's main combo starters on us are jab 1, up tilt, fast fall aerials (especially up air, fair), and egg lay.

Okay so I think that covers a lot of the matchup. Just be patient and punish his landings, then cover his attempt to get past the ledge and you have a good shot at victory. We have a lot of things Yoshi hates: range, mobility especially. Remember to make them count.

I think this matchup still is even, but has the potential to be as good as 55:45 Greninja favor.

Oh right, stages.

Stages to go to: Game 1 get rid of Lylat and Battlefield. Doesn't matter where else you end up. For your counterpick go either T&C or Duck Hunt, the latter is especially good against Yoshi. The tree and walled edges make recovery for Yoshi really awkward, and the lack of platforms gives him very few landing options against our up smash. T&C is more even, but I feel with our setups killing off the top favors us a little more. Inconsistent platforms also make life annoying for Yoshi.

Stages to avoid: Here is the thing about Yoshi - Duck Hunt may be the only stage he kind of sucks on. So when banning, ban what you feel most comfortable with because Yoshi has 3 amazing stages and he will take you to one of them: BF, DL, or Lylat. If DL is banned in your region you still have to take a 50:50 on what the Yoshi prefers but I will tell you what I ban every time right now:

Lylat is a nightmare against Yoshi. Shuriken camping is hard, landing safely is nearly impossible (up smash through platform), and the annoying edges and blastzones just amplify Yoshi's offstage game. It's basically like the flipside of Duck Hunt for us. Unless you feel INCREDIBLY comfy with Lylat I'd flag this as maybe the worst stage in the matchup. Battlefield is more doable, Yoshi loves the platforms and his offstage game is still really good because of the huge blast zones, but our combo game works well here and we can edge guard him pretty effectively as well. Dream Land is best case scenario, we get the low ceiling mixed in with the better platform height, but most Yoshis don't seem to prefer it over BF.

Ok I think that's it for real this time.

Just wanted to give my two cents on this.

I agree with everything said here. For this match up, I think patience is key. Both characters are able to punish aerial approaches. Yoshi's neutral air should be respected. I believe he is even able to super armor jump out upsmash (with a combination of the platform?). I have a friend who uses Yoshi and I have a lot of experience against them.

Smart Yoshis will try and use eggthrow very often for spacing and zoning. When your percentage in damage reaches about... I want to say 60%-70%, I notice their gameplay changes to a bit more aggressive, just trying to get a kill setup. Once their opponent reaches a certain percent, I don't think their kill setups work as well, if at all. I also wanted to link this video as a reference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_sESjVXCaQ&t=3m35s

In this match, the Greninja did exactly what Ludiloco said. Lots of upsmashes for pressure and to cover landings. He doen't get too greedy with upairs nor does he really follow Yoshi offstage. Most noticeable, Greninja was quite aggressive when Yoshi was trying to land. I don't think it was a perfect match, but I think this is a good example for Greninja to follow against Yoshi. You want to try and zone Yoshi and very carefully get him in the air. You can't be too greedy when comboing him, either.

 

[Ludiloco]

I wouldn't say that Bowser's new grab combo would do much to influence the matchup. Keep in mind that this is a character with no grab setups whose greatest weakness is getting in on his opponents.

As for Yoshi... you'd be surprised to hear that his options against shield aren't all that good. The only thing you really should be worrying about is Dair, but honestly I can see Greninja being able to bat him away with usmash or maybe utilt. That being said, it's not like Dair is his only option- he can use his grabs to set up tech chases on platforms, space out Fair or even run past your shield to catch you by surprise with a reverse Yoshi Bomb.

Bowser has probably the most trouble landing in the whole game, we have a safe juggle option that kills at like 95. The matchup is NOT good for him. That's in layman's terms though, I can't say I've played a really good Bowser.

I think Yoshi's neutral b is the big option on shield you need to respect in the matchup. He has too many kill setups out of it if he reads your mashing for you to let him catch you in your shield. Offstage it's a death sentence for Greninja, because even if you know how to mash properly so you won't just straight up die (really important thing to know for fast fallers), he can still predict where you'll pop out and fair you.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I wouldn't say that Bowser's new grab combo would do much to influence the matchup. Keep in mind that this is a character with no grab setups whose greatest weakness is getting in on his opponents.

Hunh? No grab setups? What Bowsers have you been fighting? Our least commital move, Jab, leads directly into dash grab. Every one of your melee approaches can be met with this. Greninja's moves aren't very safe from shieldgrabs and punishes either. And it's more than a new Uthrow you need fear after this patch. Being able to ledge snap from behind during Fortress made our offstage edgeguarding much safer. Especially against recoveries that lack a hitbox. Failing that, our grounded Fortress still covers ledge options well.

In pre-patch, I would have agreed that Greninja has the advantage against Bowser. But we earned something we had never had before outside of Jab followups, a combo. A means of racking up damage after successfully breaking the opponent's zone. With all the kill confirms we have, it didn't mean much if damage was dealt one move at a time. People can go crazy over the Uair followup all they want, that's really not the game changer we're on about. There's only one thing that goes well with a good neutral game, and that's bread and butter.

 

[Codaption]

Hunh? No grab setups? What Bowsers have you been fighting? Our least commital move, Jab, leads directly into dash grab. Every one of your melee approaches can be met with this. Greninja's moves aren't very safe from shieldgrabs and punishes either. And it's more than a new Uthrow you need fear after this patch. Being able to ledge snap from behind during Fortress made our offstage edgeguarding much safer. Especially against recoveries that lack a hitbox. Failing that, our grounded Fortress still covers ledge options well.

In pre-patch, I would have agreed that Greninja has the advantage against Bowser. But we earned something we had never had before outside of Jab followups, a combo. A means of racking up damage after successfully breaking the opponent's zone. With all the kill confirms we have, it didn't mean much if damage was dealt one move at a time. People can go crazy over the Uair followup all they want, that's really not the game changer we're on about. There's only one thing that goes well with a good neutral game, and that's bread and butter.

Alright, I will cede that I did not know Jab led into a grab, but..... you still have to actually land the jab. Which, requires getting in on them.

As for edgeguarding.... Bowser already had some pretty terrifying options for edgeguarding, and that buff certainly makes it a lot safer to go for them, but he still lacks a reliable way to force people into an edgeguarding situation.

Bowser has probably the most trouble landing in the whole game, we have a safe juggle option that kills at like 95. The matchup is NOT good for him. That's in layman's terms though, I can't say I've played a really good Bowser.

I think Yoshi's neutral b is the big option on shield you need to respect in the matchup. He has too many kill setups out of it if he reads your mashing for you to let him catch you in your shield. Offstage it's a death sentence for Greninja, because even if you know how to mash properly so you won't just straight up die (really important thing to know for fast fallers), he can still predict where you'll pop out and fair you.

Egg Lay is indeed an issue, but it's also Yoshi's slowest grab with 20 frames of startup. You should be able to spotdodge or roll away on reaction if you're already keeping an eye out for it.

In the event that Yoshi DOES land Egg Lay, you always have the option of mixing up your mashing- a Yoshi expecting you to pop out early may be thrown off when you don't. It's also worth keeping in mind that you get invincibility right after popping out (but I get the impression that was already known).

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Alright, I will cede that I did not know Jab led into a grab, but..... you still have to actually land the jab. Which, requires getting in on them.

As for edgeguarding.... Bowser already had some pretty terrifying options for edgeguarding, and that buff certainly makes it a lot safer to go for them, but he still lacks a reliable way to force people into an edgeguarding situation.

Ohhhhh, I have to land the jab. You're right. Next time I fight a Greninja I'll take extra special care not to be asleep for the fight.

Jab is Bowser's best move. Like I said, it's our least committal poke, outranges and out-prioritizes just about anything that isn't a sword swing (and even in that case, it often trades), has the second best startup of any other move (our actual fastest move is an OoS option). It's so good I could write a whole thread about it. Though looking back, it's very much in need of an update. You don't play Bowser anywhere near a competitive level unless you're using jab. And I'm not concerned with getting in. Everybody wants to rush to us. You know what it's like comboing Bowser, feels good, feels like the right thing to do. Jab is the number one approach killer when they're coming from the ground.

As for edgeguarding, try a run off Fair as Bowser, then recover to the ledge with double jump and Fortress. Now imagine this same motion, but Bowser is left spinning like a goon for an additional 30 frames at that ledge before grabbing it. We didn't do offstage edgeguarding, because if we missed, they can turn the situation around on us pretty reliably by letting go of the ledge after getting past us, trying a ledge trump, etc. The only mixup we had was recovering high onto the stage, and suffering 50 frames of special landing lag. It's because of this weakness that we didn't try putting people offstage, even when we had just the moves to do it. The best move is, you guessed it, Jab 1 and then Jab 2, which is more guaranteed than other jab followups by virtue of being a true combo. Ftilt and Dtilt also have the appropriate (sakurai) angle for setting up edgeguards, but longer startup, longer endlag, yada yada. They only deserve mention as being yet more choices as a jab followup that lose when the opponent is holding shield after being jabbed.

I don't know as much as I would like about Greninja's options, but I know enough that nothing is overwhelmingly threatening to us. No sheik needles, Fox Lasers, ZSS or Meta knight Uair strings into Up B, Monkey Flips, Cargo Throws. If this MU isn't equal, then you've got my attention for when you prove to me otherwise.

 

[FullMoon]

Ohhhhh, I have to land the jab. You're right. Next time I fight a Greninja I'll take extra special care not to be asleep for the fight.

Rude, much? I get that people saying stuff about your character that is completely wrong is really annoying but some people just don't know and they will be more willing to listen to your explanation if you're not being a jerk about it.

Jab is Bowser's best move. Like I said, it's our least committal poke, outranges and out-prioritizes just about anything that isn't a sword swing (and even in that case, it often trades), has the second best startup of any other move (our actual fastest move is an OoS option). It's so good I could write a whole thread about it. Though looking back, it's very much in need of an update. You don't play Bowser anywhere near a competitive level unless you're using jab. And I'm not concerned with getting in. Everybody wants to rush to us. You know what it's like comboing Bowser, feels good, feels like the right thing to do. Jab is the number one approach killer when they're coming from the ground.

As for edgeguarding, try a run off Fair as Bowser, then recover to the ledge with double jump and Fortress. Now imagine this same motion, but Bowser is left spinning like a goon for an additional 30 frames at that ledge before grabbing it. We didn't do offstage edgeguarding, because if we missed, they can turn the situation around on us pretty reliably by letting go of the ledge after getting past us, trying a ledge trump, etc. The only mixup we had was recovering high onto the stage, and suffering 50 frames of special landing lag. It's because of this weakness that we didn't try putting people offstage, even when we had just the moves to do it. The best move is, you guessed it, Jab 1 and then Jab 2, which is more guaranteed than other jab followups by virtue of being a true combo. Ftilt and Dtilt also have the appropriate (sakurai) angle for setting up edgeguards, but longer startup, longer endlag, yada yada. They only deserve mention as being yet more choices as a jab followup that lose when the opponent is holding shield after being jabbed.

I don't know as much as I would like about Greninja's options, but I know enough that nothing is overwhelmingly threatening to us. No sheik needles, Fox Lasers, ZSS or Meta knight Uair strings into Up B, Monkey Flips, Cargo Throws. If this MU isn't equal, then you've got my attention for when you prove to me otherwise.

Greninja still has shurikens so at no point does he really have to approach you. Shurikens are no needles, but they still make approaching pretty tough because they're very fast when fired and they reach a long distance. We still have one of the best projectile in the game in our arsenal and Bowser doesn't really have an answer to it.

Our combo game is still very strong and Greninja has a very good damage rate with his combos so we can keep up with Bowser's strong attacks and combos pretty well still, especially if we're in the air. Our mobility is still better which allows us to play hit and run against Bowser very effectively.

Something to keep in mind, Greninja is not as easy to punish as you're making him out to be. N-Air is -4 on shield, which means if we hit your shield and you try to use Up-B, we can shield it on landing and punish you for using it. If you try to grab us instead, your grab is frame 9 so we can jab (frame 3) you before your grab can connect or we could even roll away. You still have to guess what we're going to do if we hit your shield with N-Air, and a well spaced F-Air is completely safe since it's -8 and disjointed so you won't be hitting us with any OoS options.

Edgeguarding Greninja is risky, it can kill you just as easily as it can kill us. If we read your attack and use Substitute, you're going to get dunked (Substitute has almost the same strenght as the meteor in Ganon's Down-B, having the same KB values but doing 2% less damage, it's really strong) and Greninja's recovery is good enough for him to survive doing that as long as we're above ledge height. While edgeguarding Bowser is not a free kill, Hydro Pump can still put you in a bad place if you get hit by it. It most likely won't kill you by itself, but it still leaves you really open and there's little to no risk in trying to edgeguard Bowser this way since Hydro Pump has such a long reach to it.

Bowser is a lot better now, yes, but Greninja can keep up with him pretty well I think, we get punished a lot harder if we mess up, but we still punish you hard for messing up too even if we don't kill as early as you do.

Is the MU in our favor? I dunno, I haven't played a good Bowser in forever and probably never will. I could see it being in our favor, I could see it being even now, but I'm pretty sure we don't lose.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Rude, much? I get that people saying stuff about your character that is completely wrong is really annoying but some people just don't know and they will be more willing to listen to your explanation if you're not being a jerk about it.



Greninja still has shurikens so at no point does he really have to approach you. Shurikens are no needles, but they still make approaching pretty tough because they're very fast when fired and they reach a long distance. We still have one of the best projectile in the game in our arsenal and Bowser doesn't really have an answer to it.

Our combo game is still very strong and Greninja has a very good damage rate with his combos so we can keep up with Bowser's strong attacks and combos pretty well still, especially if we're in the air. Our mobility is still better which allows us to play hit and run against Bowser very effectively.

Something to keep in mind, Greninja is not as easy to punish as you're making him out to be. N-Air is -4 on shield, which means if we hit your shield and you try to use Up-B, we can shield it on landing and punish you for using it. If you try to grab us instead, your grab is frame 9 so we can jab (frame 3) you before your grab can connect or we could even roll away. You still have to guess what we're going to do if we hit your shield with N-Air, and a well spaced F-Air is completely safe since it's -8 and disjointed so you won't be hitting us with any OoS options.

Edgeguarding Greninja is risky, it can kill you just as easily as it can kill us. If we read your attack and use Substitute, you're going to get dunked (Substitute has almost the same strenght as the meteor in Ganon's Down-B, having the same KB values but doing 2% less damage, it's really strong) and Greninja's recovery is good enough for him to survive doing that as long as we're above ledge height. While edgeguarding Bowser is not a free kill, Hydro Pump can still put you in a bad place if you get hit by it. It most likely won't kill you by itself, but it still leaves you really open and there's little to no risk in trying to edgeguard Bowser this way since Hydro Pump has such a long reach to it.

Bowser is a lot better now, yes, but Greninja can keep up with him pretty well I think, we get punished a lot harder if we mess up, but we still punish you hard for messing up too even if we don't kill as early as you do.

Is the MU in our favor? I dunno, I haven't played a good Bowser in forever and probably never will. I could see it being in our favor, I could see it being even now, but I'm pretty sure we don't lose.

Yes, I know what N-air being -4 on shield means. I wrote half of these charts. So, how confident are you that you can get the strong hit of Nair, and land the very next frame after the move connects? If you're off by three or more frames, or land the soft hit instead, you will eat the Fortress. And if I'm so worried about you landing with shield, I could always do shieldgrab instead. You're proposing a gamble. At no point does this situation ever get better than a 50/50 in terms of frame data. And besides decent air speed, what about Greninja's short range Nair makes you so confident I can't swat it out of the air with a disjointed tilt?

As for Shurikens, I think our shield is a sufficient answer to that. With our large frame, a Bowser player is well practiced at walking and shielding. As slow as such an approach may seem, it's the safe option that you can't just assume we'd fail at.

My apologies if my sarcasm came off as rude. I at least tried to be somewhat informative with my post. There's nothing more patronizing then bringing up a strong option for you character then being told "yes, but that's only if you ever land it". Speaking of being informative, I asked for an argument supporting Greninja as the victor of this MU. While I'm pleased that you agree this MU is even, I was also asking for information I might not know of this character. Don't give up just yet.

 

[FullMoon]

Yes, I know what N-air being -4 on shield means. I wrote half of these charts. So, how confident are you that you can get the strong hit of Nair, and land the very next frame after the move connects? If you're off by three or more frames, or land the soft hit instead, you will eat the Fortress. And if I'm so worried about you landing with shield, I could always do shieldgrab instead. You're proposing a gamble. At no point does this situation ever get better than a 50/50 in terms of frame data. And besides decent air speed, what about Greninja's short range Nair makes you so confident I can't swat it out of the air with a disjointed tilt?

As for Shurikens, I think our shield is a sufficient answer to that. With our large frame, a Bowser player is well practiced at walking and shielding. As slow as such an approach may seem, it's the safe option that you can't just assume we'd fail at.

My apologies if my sarcasm came off as rude. I at least tried to be somewhat informative with my post. There's nothing more patronizing then bringing up a strong option for you character then being told "yes, but that's only if you ever land it". Speaking of being informative, I asked for an argument supporting Greninja as the victor of this MU. While I'm pleased that you agree this MU is even, I was also asking for information I might not know of this character. Don't give up just yet.

I don't necessarily agree with it being even, I'm just willing to accept the possibility. As for the whole thing with N-Air, yes, I'm aware that it's nothing more than a 50/50 but I just thought it would be worth of mention.

I'm afraid I don't really have much to say otherwise, Greninja is a pretty straight-forward character. Though I have to say, if you sit in shield against shuriken and we decide to charge it, if you get hit by the final hit while you're on shield it's a legit frame trap IIRC and it will result in you being dash grabbed, Greninja doesn't get too much out of it but it still puts you in a bad position. If you try to roll or spotdodge the last hit, you're vulnerable to being hit with a Shadow Sneak if we read it which can kill you depending on your position in the stage and the percent (the back kick can kill Bowser from the center of FD at around 124% with no rage so it can be pretty dangerous). I'm not sure if Bowser can jump out? The rehit rate of the charge shuriken is 6 and Bowser's jump squat is frame 8 so I'm guessing if he tries to jump he gets hit? Not sure on that one

If you let go of your shield early we can still fire the shuriken and it might get you and gives us some sweet free damage in the process, so Water Shuriken is not that easy to deal with because it's a very versatile move in itself since we can decide when to release it. Generally shielding against a charged shuriken places you in a pretty bad spot.

It's still nothing huge I think but like I said I don't really have a clue about how that MU goes now. I would need actual practice with it before making any judgement.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Charged Shuriken rehit rate is 6? Yikes, and here I thought dodge rolls wouldn't work. But you're right, we can't jump over after blocking it because of our frame 8 jumpsquat. I've been playing under the assumption that you're helpless when attempting to block the full charge shuriken. The only thing you could do was let go of shield to be taken away by the move. It was either that or the dash grab, damage either way. So what I always did was carefully jump to get over it just as it's released, and blast Greninja with point blank fire breath when descending. This is a statistically bad option, but Shuriken's primary mixup is whether you release it early or go for the full charge. Being completely out of its trajectory for long enough that even the full charge won't catch my landing is just the safety I need to counter this attack. And if he releases early to punish Bowser, I use Flying Slam for a lagless landing and aerial command grab while maintaining my approach momentum. While a lot of this surely sounds like madness, it's what has worked for me in the past. The altogether safest answer to charged shuriken is to step onto a platform above you, or run the hell away like we do for Robin's Arcthunder. Because shielding just won't work out in our favor, and Fire Breath can't cancel out the transcendent shuriken like it can for its smaller varieties.

 

[TTYK]

I wouldn't say that Bowser's new grab combo would do much to influence the matchup. Keep in mind that this is a character with no grab setups

Jab 1 -> Grab. There ya go.

My only real advice for the bowser MU is keep pelting him with WS to force him into shield more. The only real drawback this can have on us is up B oos. At higher percent when bowser is close by do not use shuriken. The end lag gives bowser a chance to punish; and not just with a grab. Dash attack works with bowser fine also. Jab (which leads into grab), Ftilt, and Up B all beat out our standing grab so... Standing grab is a no-no.

 

[Ludiloco]

Honestly standing grab should almost always be a no-no. Just take that option and toss it in the invisible little trashcan in the back of your mind. Unless you like perfect shield a falcon punch and want to standing grab them to show them you can, then by all means.



I wanted to get a handle on this matchup, so I played my friend for a while who isn't the best Bowser ever but certainly is good enough to know what he's doing (tournament secondary level Bowser). So take all of this with a grain of salt, it's just my impressions and I'm sure it's not entirely accurate.

Some things of note for Bowser in this matchup is his ability to armor through the uncharged shuriken at low %, run off fair like Brannigan mentioned, and his struggles with landing. Camping Bowser feels somewhat effective, but less so than most other heavies or characters that kinda struggle to get in. Charged shurikens are pretty good here, because as long as Bowser's not at a range where he can just jump over it and punish he's probably going to have to block it. This puts him in an unfavorable situation no matter how he chooses to react while/after blocking it. You can read his roll and get a grab either by pivot or dashing, or if he chooses to block all of it you can just grab him normally (I mean this is kinda every matchup but I just wanted to add my input to the discussion from earlier). Bowser's pretty quick on his feet, so throwing shurikens and running away only works somewhat. I'd more try to use shurikens to annoy Bowser instead of truly keep him out, and then use fair and crossup nair to challenge him from a safe distance (to avoid up b out of shield).

Getting a grab on Bowser is so huge in this matchup I can't stress it enough. Putting Bowser in the air where we can get guaranteed up airs (sometimes more than one) and forcing him to land against us covering the ground with our up smash is exactly where we want to be in this matchup. Bowser has really poor options to cover an opponent directly below him (just don't get greedy in the air or randy Bowser bomb or dair may make you pay), so staying underneath him and pressuring him with up smash and up air is really good. Just be careful you're not blocking his return to the ground too often, he can command grab you or pop your shield if you're not careful. In neutral I think we win this matchup, we don't really have to put ourselves at too much risk of Bowser's pretty solid range due to how much range and speed we have ourselves. We do have to be more careful with our spacing than some matchups, as crossup nair is only safe from up b if you space it correctly, and his pivot grab covers a lot of unsafe approaches. Be wary of that and you should be ok.

As far as edge guarding, I think both characters edge guard each other pretty well. Bowser has his run off fair which covers a lot of area and is pretty powerful, and then if he misses the whirling fortress covers the ledge for a little while. To cover high recovery, he has fair and also his bair which is incredibly powerful. Bowser seems to have a little bit of a blind spot covering the area under and inside the ledge, so going really low and recovering straight up can be helpful. His flame breath covers this option somewhat, but is more just an annoyance than anything stock-ending.

Bowser's recovery is mostly pretty linear, but not quite to the level of DK who has no vertical momentum whatsoever. While playing my friend I found if Bowser has to recover from a far horizontal distance that shorthop fairing off the ledge works pretty well. You can also hang on the ledge and bair him until he can't come back, once he loses his jump. If you're feeling ballsy, dair can work but you have to call where he's going to be. Hydro pump kinda works but not as well as it does on most other recoveries. You might as well just go out there and hit him.

Alright I'll wrap it up. Stages to go to: All of the Greninja bnb stages are good against Bowser, though T&C can amplify the effects of Bowser's hoo-hah so be careful. Best choices against Bowser are FD and Smashville for a starter, then DH for a counterpick.

Stages to avoid: Battlefield and Dreamland for sure, you don't want to get command grabbed onto the top platform and die at 80. For some reason I really don't like Lylat here either. Unfortunately you will be counterpicked to one of them, so it's really what you feel comfy with. Dream land we have the potential to death combo Bowser off the top with the good platform height and slightly lower ceiling, but Battlefield we have better survivability. Bowser gets the same stuff though.

I think this matchup is 55:45 our favor. Pretty even offstage, but the neutral and our advantage vs Bowser's disadvantage is what I feel determines it. I'd love to play a top level Bowser sometime and get a better idea of it, though.

 

[Codaption]

I would like to start by apologizing for making assumptions. It's something I do quite a bit and have been trying to cut out, and Bowser is not a character I know much about when it comes to actually playing him (I do have a Bowser I pull out in friendlies, but I'll be the first to admit that it's a very flowcharty character of mine that's just a joy to use when it works).

However, I did do some asking around and personal labbing on the setup; did it on Puff to get as much hitstun as I could at 0%. Yet not only was there a pretty wide window to escape, but depending on spacing it might even be possible to land the grab (dash grab is still an option in those situations, but that has an even wider margin to escape to the point where most characters would be able to just jump away). It's still a mixup option, for sure, but if Jab is as big a part of Bowser's meta as you say it is then I'm not sure how reliable it is by virtue of people learning to expect it (to the point where they might be able to Vector or DI out of the combo entirely)... and by extension, any other mixups that may be available to him from Jab.

I'd also like to point out that...

Everybody wants to rush to us.

This is completely untrue. Bum-rushing Bowser is probably the worst thing you could ever do; you're just asking to be bopped. It's a much easier and safer strategy to play campy with him, something that can be done by characters with good projectile options or even just good mobility (Think Falcon, Sonic.... heck, my main is a balloon that thrives on playing lame, we can't afford to go aggro on a guy that eats us alive in a few clean hits). Comboing Bowser is good fun, yes, but the very nature of the character means that you can't just charge in on him.

 

[Lawliet626]

Im not very experienced in this match up but i can throw out some small stuff I know of it I guess
Not sure about shuriken at low percentages, but Bowser's overall armor (Known in the bowser boards as "Tough guy") is effective against our multi jab until 55%, so you find yourself jabbing, go for the finisher each and every time until you pass that percent.
Baiting out his Dair/ Down B to punish with substitute is something I've found really effective.
Dreamland is a stage we should avoid at all costs, because of his new hoo hah and how he is able to Side B opponents who get very shield happy at platforms and kill easily at the top
Battlefield is good for him but it really comes down to whether the bowser wants to kill off the top later on due to the ceilings or if he wants to kill with side B.

 

[Y2Kay]

If we don't know the matchup very well, why don't we play one another?

I honestly think it's a more fun and productive way to really learn something about these matchups, especially if nobody knows it beyond for glory (lol)

If any bowser mains have smash 3ds, I can probably play tomorow night at around 8:00 CT

 

[Gunla]

Spoiler: Week 6 Results

50:50 Even - Previous patches haven't done much to Yoshi, and this matchup hasn't really changed either. This matchup requires Greninja to punish his landings and capitalize on ledge getup attempts. Be sure to avoid recovering the same way and watch for Fair.
Stages to Avoid: Lylat - This post from Ludiloco does a great job of explaining it.
Stages to Pick: Duck Hunt - Yoshi struggles on this stage due to it's structure.

55:45 Slight Advantage - Despite the major buff to Bowser's Throw, a lot of this matchup is still the same. Shuriken still keeps Bowser away, and he still falls victim to combos due to his large size. Be watchful of Bowser's tools and take advantage of bad edgeguard attempts.
Stages to Avoid: T&C/Halberd - Low Ceilings can benefit to Bowser's U-Throw.
Stages to Pick: Final Destination/Duck Hunt - Longer onstage areas allow for stronger Shuriken spacing.

Session 7: This week is two requests! Here they are! (I'm calling these Sessions now because they usually last longer than a week.)


Greninja VS The Fitness Monster: Wii Fit Trainer!
Wii Fit Trainer is an oddball character. With some strange tools and great specials in her arsenal, she's quite a dangerous character to go up against. While earlier in Smash 4's meta, we listed her as an advantage. She's had lots of room to grow, so she's definitely improved. Perhaps this matchup is even after all?
Current Rating: 55:45 Slight Advantage
Stages to Avoid:
Stages to Pick:


Greninja VS Randall: Cloud!
Here he is, Cloud Strife! The First-Class SOLDIER has made serious waves as of late. With incredible tools and a dangerous KO move in the form of Finishing Touch, he's quite a force to be reckoned with. At the same time, however, he has a very poor recovery without Limit Break and some slower activation moves. How does Greninja fare?
Current Rating: Unknown
Stages to Avoid:
Stages to Pick:

 

[Illusion.]

Tagging @Funcrazyfish (best WFT in Texas) since we've played this MU together quite a bit.

 

[BigHairyFart]

I'm gonna give my two cents on

At a distance, Clouds will do one of two things, charge LB, or throw a Blade Beam at you. Both are snuffed out by WS(don't even have to charge it). Uncharged, WS will just trade with BB, and charged will just beat it. If they're going for LB charge, they will likely try to shield the Shuriken, charged or not, which obviously give us a chance to go for a dash grab, or dash>read their roll. At low% you can SSHC out of D-Throw, which will hit him unless he shields. You can also SSHC out of his non-LB Side-B(best to do it on hit one or two). If he charges the LB, you can shield all of his specials(not sure about Finishing Touch, that seems like a move the would ignore shields) safely as Cloud gets very little from throws. Be warned that the LB-Side-B does a LOT of shield damage. If you can get him offstage without his LB, then he becomes a VERY easy gimp through Hydro Pump(like Ike). I don't reccomend going offstage(especialy if he has LB), as he has two spikes and all of his specials can easily kill you. They like to recover low and sweetspot the ledge, which means we can just stand back and Up-B to kill them. If they're smart enough to not poke their hurtbox above the stage, then a horizontal HP won't hit, but we can easily just go Up-Out>Up and the water will then go below the ledge. Additionally, you could go for a D-Air at the ledge if you want, but HP is less risky.

 

[Steve.Stone]

Just based on my experience fighting as and against Cloud, I would t say finishing touch is that great. Most people don't use it, and the actual hitbox seems to vert close to Cloud, the rest is just a big windbox. And it's easy to get them to waste their limit on a recovery Instead.

 

[Codaption]

Finishing Touch is a move that's extremely weird but scary when used right.

It should go without saying that it's very unsafe by itself- the thing has frame 16 startup, almost a full second of endlag, and does basically nothing to shield- but of course Cloud can combo into it so isn't that just swell. Falling Uair is a very common setup for it, and since the move's knockback ignores both weight and fallspeed your fast-faller status is going to be a straight negative against it. So, uh... don't let him hit you with that.

 

[Ludiloco]

A few notes on Cloud and why we win this matchup:

- His best option to land, dair, is beaten by our up smash and up air if we catch the hitbox early enough (this means we get guaranteed up airs on up throw against clouds who try to mash out dair)

- His recovery is ridiculously exploitable if he does not snap perfectly to the ledge. Hydro pump beats it, shield jab beats it, a lot of things mess with it. You can even go offstage and hydro pump him. Don't respect his limit up b too much, while he can mix it up and go high (possibly killing us) if you challenge it out deep, near the ledge you can drop down bair and force his tech, and he'll still have to recover again even if he techs it. A well timed and spaced d smash also does the trick.

- Shurikens are nice but don't do a ton, Cloud is going to be hopping around a lot spacing aerials so the best thing to do is just wait and punish his landings. The best use for shurikens is annoying him while he tries to charge limit/offstage. His blade beam is useless against us for the most part, just be careful when he puts it at short hop height or at the ledge.

- Be careful recovering low, Cloud is able to drop off side b you for a stage spike and the timing to tech is hard. Hanging at the ledge too long is also bad, limit neutral b can hit you.

- Cloud's up air is a powerful frame trap. Be careful when you're air dodging and don't use dair.

I think the neutral is pretty much even, but we destroy Cloud when he's trying to recover. 55:45 our favor.


Edit: Could we possibly open discussion back up for Pikachu? I really struggle in this matchup and would like some advice.

 

[Rucent]

The Sonic Match Up Thread is currently discussing Sonic vs Greninja! We would love it if you gave us your input on the match up!

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...-bowser-greninja.390575/page-12#post-20768483

Thank you! :D

 

[SteadyDisciple]

Given that no one else has talked about it yet and that these two are by far my most played characters, I'd like to throw in my two cents on the matchup. Disclaimers ahead of time, I am not a tournament level player, so YMMV.

vs. /

Personally, I don't see how Greninja could do anything but win this matchup. Greninja moves faster, has significantly larger hitboxes on his moves, and has an actual combo game. Many of Greninja's moves also help to shut down WFT's greatest strengths. Let's go through the phases together.

The Neutral:
Both of these characters like to play defense, letting opponents come to them while throwing out projectiles to keep opponents away or make openings. In the range game, Water Shuriken is a godsend for this matchup. It's fast, we can mix up the timing, and it's very low to the ground. These traits combine to make it hard for WFT to avoid, since she can't crouch under it or just use header to go over it without risking getting a charged version when she lands. By contrast, sun salutation is very powerful on a full charge, but charging it will be no easy task, and at partial charge this projectile is laughably slow, making it easy for the faster greninja to avoid if necessary. Header can be a pain, but it can also be hit back, so moves like U-tilt make for a great defense. Plus, header starts high up when on stage, meaning Greninja can often just dash in under it for a punish.

This means that, unless WFT is willing to give up stage control to play on the ledge (more on that later), she really does have to be moderately aggressive, which is both one of her greatest weaknesses and Greninja's greatest strengths. WFT's moves are slightly faster, but are easily out-spaced thanks to their poor range, and their endlag makes them easy to punish even for characters with poor frame data like Greninja. While WFT isn't totally helpless here thanks to her ability to retreat to the ledge, I still have to give this to Greninja.

The Follow-up:
This is the category where Greninja seems to have the greatest advantage in my eyes. To be blunt, WFT has no follow-up game. She can combo out of N-air, U-tilt, and Jab 3's bury. Of those, U-tilt is very hard to land due to it's miniscule hitbox (though if she does get it it works similarly to Mario's U-tilt strings), and Jab 3's combos are dependant on reads for how fast the opponent will mash for any real mileage. That just leaves Nair, which will combo into itself for damage early on, or kills at very specific percents.

On the flip side, everyone here knows Greninja's combos. U-throw to U-air works well due to WFT's slow moves, tall frame, and floatiness, as do D-tilt, D-throw, and Dash Attack combos. Also, WFT has a very hard time hitting enemies that are in front of her in the air due to a wonky F-air, so our own F-air is extra safe if spaced well. With easier kill combos and just a generally better combo game, gotta give this section to Greninja hands down.

Edgeguarding:
Well, WFT had to win in one of these categories, right? Don't get me wrong, gimping Greninja is no easy feat thanks to Hydro Pump and the occasional Shadow Sneak, but WFT definitely has the tools to make you hurt offstage. With the floatiness to just hang out off-stage, three spikes with all different timings and hitbox locations, Header's ability to bounce off of the stage, aerial stalling with Deep Breathing, a killing B-air, Super Hoops lasting hitbox that also stage spikes, and a very low hanging ledge grab that avoids our D-smash or charged Water Shuriken, WFT is a monster off-stage. Good WFT's will try to trick you into chasing them offstage, but don't be fooled and play it safe, or it will cost you a stock.

From Greninja's perspective, this really seems to be an area where you may just not want to risk it. Hydro pump is almost completely useless for gimping here due to WFT's super floatiness (though it can still net you some free damage). WFT is also likely to throw headers at you even while she's off-stage, but if you read this correctly a Water Shuriken can actually bounce this back into her face. Spiking often fails to kill WFT due to the reach of Super Hoops' recovery, and she can afford to drift away from the stage or drop lower to avoid moves like F-air and B-air. Gotta give the edge here to WFT.

Summary:
So, apologies if I rambled, it's too late to be writing this here, but TL:DR:

WFT is scary off stage in the correct hands, but Greninja's neutral is all but custom made to deal with WFT's, and we have actual combos. The last time the WFT boards discussed this matchup, it was actually listed in their top 10 worst (though that was ages and patches ago). Quick moves (like D-tilt) or disjointed moves (like F-air) are our friends, and so long as you can keep inside of Water Shuriken range to prevent charging of Sun Salutation/Deep Breathing it should be a walk in the park.

60:40

 

[Macchiato]

WFT is scary off stage in the correct hands, but Greninja's neutral is all but custom made to deal with WFT's, and we have actual combos. The last time the WFT boards discussed this matchup, it was actually listed in their top 10 worst (though that was ages and patches ago). Quick moves (like D-tilt) or disjointed moves (like F-air) are our friends, and so long as you can keep inside of Water Shuriken range to prevent charging of Sun Salutation/Deep Breathing it should be a walk in the park.

This shows your little knowledge on WFT. Her combo game is probably as strong and maybe stronger than Greninjas. N-air combos into itself multiple times and many other moves and sets up into a Usmash for a kill at high percents. Back hit of F-tilt also combos into U-air.

Please educate yourself before showing false information.

Unless WS is charged, it won't hit us on the ledge. Also AC'd header if spaced right will hit him. Greninja is far from our top 10 worst MUs. Also you called WFT's moves slow but you do realize that we have overall better frame data right? Look on KuroganeHammer.

Here's a match between a Top WFT, John#s, and a Top Greninja, Venia, to show an example.

 

[Y2Kay]

I was literally about to mention everything you said Macchiato ! thnx for stealing my thunder ;-;

this is 50:50 IMO. I don't think anybody objectively wins here

 

[FullMoon]

To be fair Venia is a very aggressive player which ends up working against when it comes to fighting John, he barely uses shurikens at all and I mean yeah we can't win the projectile war against WFT but adding up damage is still worth it and unless you try shuriken camping when WFT has Sun Salutation charged up you're not at much risk other than being poked by a header.

He also does things like constantly trying to challenge WFT offstage which is just a bad idea in general, the most that should be done is trying to Hydro Pump the hoops to see if you can send her high up for a big punish.

That said I am interested in hearing John12346 's thoughts about this MU since from what I've seen so far he's constantly the one to roadblock Venia at Nebulous.

 

[Ludiloco]

I'm not sure how far we should be reading into John#s vs Venia on this mu. Unfortunately though, it's not one that occurs often at a high level so we may not have much of a choice. I'm not saying it's useless to watch the videos and pick out bits and pieces, just saying a win in either player's favor isn't going to determine anything. John is a more experienced player than Venia currently and should have an advantage over him for a while.

Personally I think Greninja wins this matchup slightly just based on theorycrafting and what I know about Wii Fit, but I can't say I've had the pleasure of playing many Wii Fit mains. I won't talk too much about the matchup or put a number on it if I'm not feeling I have adequate experience, though. I just know shuriken outclasses sun salutation and Greninja is probably going to get more opportunities to start combos simply by the number of moves he can combo out of vs the number Wii Fit can. From the video above, it seems like the majority of Wii Fit combos come from landing a nair or another auto-cancelled aerial. This is not necessarily bad, I just feel it is difficult to do consistently against such a slippery defensive foe as Greninja.

The only place I can think of where WFT would have full domain over the matchup would be at the ledge and offstage. WFT should feel comfortable that Greninja doesn't really have a method of edge guarding that doesn't require a hard commitment, and really doesn't even have a very effective way to smack her off the ledge for regrabbing. Wii Fit's header covers her return trip to the ledge vs all of Greninjas regrab punishes, as making him block it makes him unable to down smash and he can't really time a full shuriken around it.

When it comes to edge guarding Greninja has some surprise options, like shadow sneak or fair that could catch a wii fit off guard if they're using deep breathing, but it relies on the player not expecting the option. Hydro pump works wonders on the hula hoops, but it's still a commitment and a knowledgable wii fit can just wait until the Greninja tries it before using the hoops (hydro pump should send you slightly up anyway).

On the flipside, Wii Fit can edge guard Greninja fairly well. He doesn't have great options to mix up his recovery and she can kinda just wait at the ledge or float out there and nail us with a spike or push us out too far to recover. I would say saving your jump is key here, but be careful about using shadow sneak as it can be read and traded with to spike.

Alright so I guess I still said a lot about the matchup, but I'm not gonna provide a number or anything. Just wanted to add some thoughts of mine.

 

[John12346]

Oh, well let me give my two cents on the matter since you asked...

While in neutral, Greninja has a leg up thanks to his superior mobility and large hitboxes, and Wii Fit's general lack of a 'get off me' move (like Mario Nair, or Luigi Jab). Shield pressure that is spaced outside of shieldgrab range is rather effective against Wii Fit because the front hits of her Jab and Ftilt, as well as Bair OOS will just whiff completely against the low profile of Greninja's landing lag animations. Wii Fit mostly has to rely on dodge options in order to escape his pressure once it's begun.

With a Sun charged up, Wii Fit can keep Greninja a little more honest in neutral by threatening to plaster a careless jump-in, so you will want to watch out for it. Shurikens are very effective at disrupting Wii Fit if she's trying to prepare a Sun for that purpose, but you'll generally see Wii Fits full hop/double jump or just throw themselves off the stage to avoid this. You can try to take advantage of this now compromised stage control, but it's still very tough, due to Wii Fit's strong air stall options and recovery.

Both characters have a rather insane amount of combos on each other so I'll just say they break even on this front.

As far as the offstage game, Wii Fit has absolutely no business getting hit by anything that isn't Hydro Pump due to Greninja having a rather linear edgeguarding game, and will usually make it back to the stage every time due to the fact she can go much deeper than Greninja for the recovery. You can go for a Bair stagespike if you stayed on stage and Wii Fit opted for the super low recovery, but most Wii Fits will *hopefully* be able to tech that. Greninja, on the other hand, needs to be careful when coming back. A low recovery could spell death by one of Wii Fit's many spikes, while a high recovery may end up with a Sun Salutation to the face if Wii Fit hasn't committed too hard to punishing a low recovery yet. It's some really dangerous stuff.

Overall, I would say this is a relatively close matchup, but Greninja does win it. I would probably say 55:45 in his favor.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

This shows your little knowledge on WFT. Her combo game is probably as strong and maybe stronger than Greninjas. N-air combos into itself multiple times and many other moves and sets up into a Usmash for a kill at high percents. Back hit of F-tilt also combos into U-air.

Please educate yourself before showing false information.

Unless WS is charged, it won't hit us on the ledge. Also AC'd header if spaced right will hit him. Greninja is far from our top 10 worst MUs. Also you called WFT's moves slow but you do realize that we have overall better frame data right? Look on KuroganeHammer.

Here's a match between a Top WFT, John#s, and a Top Greninja, Venia, to show an example.

Not super appreciative of the tone of this response, but let me just cover a couple points here for clarity's sake.

1: Yes, I am aware Nair strings exist, and are a decent way to get damage. Hence why I mentioned them in my original post. I am also aware that there are combos into Usmash, which I also mentioned. "Many" is not a word I would have used, so perhaps I am unaware of some of them (which is what I assume your video covers, though I cannot watch it at this time). As for Ftilt > Uair, I was under the impression that a second jump escaped this reliably at percents that fast falling couldn't be used to escape, but I could be mistaken.

2: Pretty sure WS never hits WFT on the ledge, even at full charge. Again, I stated that, and is part of the reason I put the edgeguard game so heavily in WFT's favor.

3: Correct me if I'm wrong, but AC Header is referring to canceling header on stage and then hitting the ball for a sort of trick shot, correct? I feel the need to clarify this as the WFT boards have themselves acknowledged that the terminology for this tech is jumbled at best. If this is in fact whet you are referencing, it could feasibly be used during the follow up, but it is by no means safe in the neutral do to Greninja's movement speed letting him close for a punish before the ball is actually hit at the distances he can't just avoid it on reaction.

4: Yes, I am aware that WFT has generally better frame data than Greninja. That does not change the fact that WFT is still slow, making Greninja's strong punish game that much easier. I didn't feel that it was wholly necessary to tell the Greninja mains that Greninja has poor frame data, but I did omit that information and I can see how that could be construed as misleading. Still, Greninja's fastest options are just as fast or faster than WFT's (looking at Jab, Dtilt, and Bair mostly), and still have larger hitboxes In most cases as well.

5: I will readily admit that I did not inude every single detail, but as I stated at the beginning, I am by no means an expert. The information I provided are simply my impressions about the matchup, and were only offered at all since it was better than having no one even touch upon the topic.

 

[Macchiato]

Not super appreciative of the tone of this response, but let me just cover a couple points here for clarity's sake.

1: Yes, I am aware Nair strings exist, and are a decent way to get damage. Hence why I mentioned them in my original post. I am also aware that there are combos into Usmash, which I also mentioned. "Many" is not a word I would have used, so perhaps I am unaware of some of them (which is what I assume your video covers, though I cannot watch it at this time). As for Ftilt > Uair, I was under the impression that a second jump escaped this reliably at percents that fast falling couldn't be used to escape, but I could be mistaken.

2: Pretty sure WS never hits WFT on the ledge, even at full charge. Again, I stated that, and is part of the reason I put the edgeguard game so heavily in WFT's favor.

3: Correct me if I'm wrong, but AC Header is referring to canceling header on stage and then hitting the ball for a sort of trick shot, correct? I feel the need to clarify this as the WFT boards have themselves acknowledged that the terminology for this tech is jumbled at best. If this is in fact whet you are referencing, it could feasibly be used during the follow up, but it is by no means safe in the neutral do to Greninja's movement speed letting him close for a punish before the ball is actually hit at the distances he can't just avoid it on reaction.

4: Yes, I am aware that WFT has generally better frame data than Greninja. That does not change the fact that WFT is still slow, making Greninja's strong punish game that much easier. I didn't feel that it was wholly necessary to tell the Greninja mains that Greninja has poor frame data, but I did omit that information and I can see how that could be construed as misleading. Still, Greninja's fastest options are just as fast or faster than WFT's (looking at Jab, Dtilt, and Bair mostly), and still have larger hitboxes In most cases as well.

5: I will readily admit that I did not inude every single detail, but as I stated at the beginning, I am by no means an expert. The information I provided are simply my impressions about the matchup, and were only offered at all since it was better than having no one even touch upon the topic.

No AC header is when you do an instant shorthop then header which cancels all landing lag. What you're thinking of is header cancelling. Wii Fit Trainer is not slow. She has good run speed, her Frame Data is decent too. Also due to greninja's weight, uthrow combos from 0-30% into uair. Also you failed to include that WiiFit trainer constantly heals. That is something crucial and they will have to take that into account. Also there was nothing about killing. I feel like there's no advantage in that but WFT might have a tiny one due to her nair set-ups. She also has a much easier time edgeguarding which can net early kills but she can struggle. Greninja must be wary of making good decisions on her shield because Bair is fast, kills early, and is a great oos option. Same with Greninja, he can get an early kill, but he can struggle as well. He has some utilt & dtilt set-ups, but if he doesn't get them then he will have struggle killing like us. His uthrow does kill around the percent DB uthrow kills him though.

 

[FullMoon]

Oh, well let me give my two cents on the matter since you asked...

While in neutral, Greninja has a leg up thanks to his superior mobility and large hitboxes, and Wii Fit's general lack of a 'get off me' move (like Mario Nair, or Luigi Jab). Shield pressure that is spaced outside of shieldgrab range is rather effective against Wii Fit because the front hits of her Jab and Ftilt, as well as Bair OOS will just whiff completely against the low profile of Greninja's landing lag animations. Wii Fit mostly has to rely on dodge options in order to escape his pressure once it's begun.

With a Sun charged up, Wii Fit can keep Greninja a little more honest in neutral by threatening to plaster a careless jump-in, so you will want to watch out for it. Shurikens are very effective at disrupting Wii Fit if she's trying to prepare a Sun for that purpose, but you'll generally see Wii Fits full hop/double jump or just throw themselves off the stage to avoid this. You can try to take advantage of this now compromised stage control, but it's still very tough, due to Wii Fit's strong air stall options and recovery.

Both characters have a rather insane amount of combos on each other so I'll just say they break even on this front.

As far as the offstage game, Wii Fit has absolutely no business getting hit by anything that isn't Hydro Pump due to Greninja having a rather linear edgeguarding game, and will usually make it back to the stage every time due to the fact she can go much deeper than Greninja for the recovery. You can go for a Bair stagespike if you stayed on stage and Wii Fit opted for the super low recovery, but most Wii Fits will *hopefully* be able to tech that. Greninja, on the other hand, needs to be careful when coming back. A low recovery could spell death by one of Wii Fit's many spikes, while a high recovery may end up with a Sun Salutation to the face if Wii Fit hasn't committed too hard to punishing a low recovery yet. It's some really dangerous stuff.

Overall, I would say this is a relatively close matchup, but Greninja does win it. I would probably say 55:45 in his favor.

Thanks for the input! I'm actually a little surprised you think we win, but yeah I can agree with pretty much everything you said.

 

[Y2Kay]

Thanks for your input Mr. Numbers! Now only if we could we could figure out why Venia keeps losing

Macchiato I know that Wii Fit Trainer's is an overlooked aspect of her, but how often does it come into play? How much health would a WFT recover in an average two stock six minute game?

 

[Macchiato]

Thanks for your input Mr. Numbers! Now only if we could we could figure out why Venia keeps losing

Macchiato I know that Wii Fit Trainer's is an overlooked aspect of her, but how often does it come into play? How much health would a WFT recover in an average two stock six minute game?

Depends on the Playstyle

Aggressive 10-20%

All-Around 20-30%

Campy 20-50%

 

[SteadyDisciple]

Depends on the Playstyle

Aggressive 10-20%

All-Around 20-30%

Campy 20-50%

I feel you may have a bit too high an expectation for the amount of healing WFT usually manages in a match. Again, I could be wrong about this, but your numbers on the "campy" playstyle seem WAY too high. In all three rounds of the matchup you just showed, Numbers' greatest healed percentage was 18%, with his median healing being 10% between all three matches. I won't dispute the ability to get up to 30%, weird things can happen, but 50% just seems unrealistic. I've never seen tournament level play get even remotely close to that number (though if you can show me evidence otherwise I would be deeply entertained at watching such a feat).

 

[Macchiato]

I feel you may have a bit too high an expectation for the amount of healing WFT usually manages in a match. Again, I could be wrong about this, but your numbers on the "campy" playstyle seem WAY too high. In all three rounds of the matchup you just showed, Numbers' greatest healed percentage was 18%, with his median healing being 10% between all three matches. I won't dispute the ability to get up to 30%, weird things can happen, but 50% just seems unrealistic. I've never seen tournament level play get even remotely close to that number (though if you can show me evidence otherwise I would be deeply entertained at watching such a feat).

You might wanna check out some of RIN's Matches. Not just genesis, the ones in Japan too.

 

[Codaption]

Gonna dissect some parts of Macciato's post, since I saw some stuff being overlooked.

Also there was nothing about killing. I feel like there's no advantage in that but WFT might have a tiny one due to her nair set-ups.

He has some utilt & dtilt set-ups, but if he doesn't get them then he will have struggle killing like us. His uthrow does kill around the percent DB uthrow kills him though.

First off, this.
-Greninja can set up for Fair kills with dash attack or dtilt.
-Uair kills can be set up with Utilt or Uthrow. Uthrow can also kill by itself, which you already mentioned but is worth reiterating because I don't really see that on Wii Fit.
-Non-meteor Dair is yet another move that leads into Fair. You can do it with the meteor hitbox if they don't tech, though.
-Sourspot Nair, while being insanely hard to time (only mentioning it because it's there) can also lead into kills. Regular Nair can still set up for Fair kills by the ledge.
-Dthrow is actually a pretty nice mixup due to the window in which you can DI being deceptively short. If they're DIing forward for Uthrow, you can catch them by surprise with a JC Usmash followup (and if testing I did on this is accurate, it's guarenteed within a somewhat strict timing window within kill percent even with no DI at all).


Feel free to correct some of this or add anything I might've missed here, my Kermit compadres, but for now I think I rest my case. That's quite a bit more than a Nair and an Ftilt.

Greninja must be wary of making good decisions on her shield because Bair is fast, kills early, and is a great oos option.

I'll just quote somebody else here that covered this already...

Shield pressure that is spaced outside of shieldgrab range is rather effective against Wii Fit because the front hits of her Jab and Ftilt, as well as Bair OOS will just whiff completely against the low profile of Greninja's landing lag animations. Wii Fit mostly has to rely on dodge options in order to escape his pressure once it's begun.

Think that's all I got for now. Time to fade back into the shadows... because ninja stuff..............








oOoOoOoOoOo

 

[bc1910]

I'm happy to accept John#s' analysis on this MU because #s vs Venia is probably the highest level example of play that we have. He presented a well measured argument with anecdotal evidence. I take slight issue with his assertion that both characters combo each other well, as in practice I don't think either character does (we all love training mode combos but after both characters learn to respect each other's Nairs the long combos don't happen very often), but that's a minor nitpick.

I would also lean the ratio more toward 50/50 based on personal experience and the fact that #s constantly beats Venia, though that could be explained by skill differential. 55/45 is probably fine for now.

 

[Ludiloco]

^ Like I said, the fact that John is a more experienced player should not affect the matchup ratio whatsoever.

I think 55:45 Greninja is exactly what I would put this at, and agree with most of his analysis.

 

[bc1910]

I don't want to get bogged down in MU theory but my point was not to suggest his skill should affect the ratio, but to consider whether in fact he IS the better player. If he is, it explains why he has a winning record in a MU he's supposed to lose. If he isn't, we would need to re-evaluate the MU.

MU ratios in a perfect world can be built entirely on theory. Ratios are simply a measurement of how two characters' tools interact. Players cannot possibly have an effect on them. However, this isn't a perfect world - we have to use results to help conclude MU ratios, and the highest level example of Greninja vs Wii Fit has Greninja losing. It's important to address why.

 

[Ludiloco]

I understand. As long as we're not ignoring the fact that John is a better player I don't see a problem with using the matches for analysis. I find Venia overextends too far offstage and has lost many early stocks for it, when if he played a more patient defensive game he would probably put himself in a better position to win. Just my thoughts.

For next week, can I ask for input on a couple of matchups? I got my first top 8 at an East-side tournament this past weekend (MI is a really tough state) but my two losses were in matchups I either don't understand or am just terrible at.

In Winners I bodied a Ryu game 1, but he adjusted to stop getting hit by nair and up smash and I started playing scared in games 2 and 3. He ended up winning the set.

After winning a set in losers, I ran into the state's best Kirby who also proceeded to bop me, but neither game was close. I think I played scared every single game after being eliminated by the Ryu. I guarantee I played the matchup horribly, just want some tips for next time.

Can we possibly talk about these matchups next week? Kirby is becoming more relevant and Ryu is a top tier threat we should know how to fight.