Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[Spirst]

Link negates the shuriken only if he's crouching. You'd have to be really predictable with the shurikens to have him consistently negate it. Our shuriken is faster than all his projectiles too. Link's mobility isn't that great either and his recovery can be pretty easily gimped. He also has some trouble being rushed down as he can't react as quickly enough. Uthrows works wonders on Links.

 

[Marilink]

To get in on Link, don't shy away from small shurikens. Just the small amount of hitstun from a non-charged Shuriken is enough to give you an opening for a SH Nair or a dash grab. Just be careful around his arrows, because the same goes for him. If he's shooting from the ground, though, you can hop over his arrows and try to get in like that.

 

[SolarDeath]

Okay new guy here, I just got into the competitive scene since Project M came out and recently declared Greninja as my main. I know ALL of the gimps, EXCEPT Dash Shadow sneak! I've been keeping up to Raykz's guides and youtube videos (If you know any other Greninja Players, Please have links!)

I'm actually extremely embarrassed by this, but I have a huge problem with incredibly, good well timed campers.
As in the campers that love to sit on one side of the stage use their projectiles the entire freaking time.
The only campers I have a problem with is Duck Hunt, Samus, Robin, Dedede, and Ness (ZSS too here and there even though she's not all that campy.) LInk's sometimes but I know how to counter them with gimping HP.

Now, I know what most of you are going to say "Time SS correctly, Shuriken Projectiles, and approach by air" and etc. however, I'm talking about the advanced campers that predict EVERY possible outcome we Greninjas can do! I tried everything and they rack up dmg quick with a fury.

My tactic for all of them is apply pressure with my ranged, forcing them to quit camping, however when I approach, they knock me back with tilts, grabs, so on and go onto spamming. So next up, is good old attack by the air! Guess what! they predict that, i hit their shield, lag, land and grab me and throw me back and CONTINUE spamming! I tried Perfect SS'ing, especially with the damn robins, but they anticipate it and immediately charge the Smash attacks (which have incredible hit boxes and priority for some reason) and wipe me out. And if they have good aerials, they dominate my air game completely! Like Ness and somehow Samus, with her AoE fire Tilt Airs. They "control" what I do and must do...

The only thing I have not tried against them is the recent "WaveDashing" technique to knock them off their little edge x_x. Also, Crouch/Crawling for projectiles that going horizontally only.
The only time I even had a chance was when I snapped and just went full throttle aggressive, as in ignoring their projectiles, getting them in the air and juggling them. but after all that, I had enough high damage that I can easily just be wiped out because of the struggle I went though!

Average campers are cake because they're predictable and are not patient enough, however these are the players that are incredibly good (as in I have like a 5% chance to actually encounter them) but these advanced ones I just don't know what to do with! I try doing the spacing game, the aggression game, and the air game, heck even all three along side the gimping pump when they're finally off the edge! They really have my head itch...

TL;DR: How to deal with Campers that seriously know what they are doing!?

 

[Lime_O]

I'm not sure if it was already discussed, but how should I approach the peach MU? I have not seen any videos of it, and am not really sure how peach plays in general, but I got bodied by one earlier. Any tips? And also, any recommended videos of this MU?

And to SolarDeath, try forcing them out of camping. Make them uncomfortable with their stage presence. Get control early and fast. I believe Greninja can crawl under most shorthopped projectile. Some, like Samus, also have large hurtboxes, so small shurikens are easier to hit and faster than most other projectiles.

 

[SolarDeath]

I

I'm not sure if it was already discussed, but how should I approach the peach MU? I have not seen any videos of it, and am not really sure how peach plays in general, but I got bodied by one earlier. Any tips? And also, any recommended videos of this MU?

And to SolarDeath, try forcing them out of camping. Make them uncomfortable with their stage presence. Get control early and fast. I believe Greninja can crawl under most shorthopped projectile. Some, like Samus, also have large hurtboxes, so small shurikens are easier to hit and faster than most other projectiles.

I try to by playing mind games with them as in juking them with dash dancing. Am I gonna hit or not!? And go for the first or 2nd strike. Usually games end in sudden deaths because of no actions .-.

 

[Lime_O]

I now know what you mean better, I was just hardcore camped by a link (granted he was japanese, there was like a quarter second latency, but no johns). My best tool in that specific situation was nair. It worked well, and I was able to keep the game close. Greninja also has a fast roll, so try using that. The real goal is to break them down with constant pressure.

Quick edit: I now see Marilink (sorry if I messed up the name) basically had already stated what I said about the shurikens, nair, and moving through the wall. Sorry for the potential repetition.

 

[toki]

Not sure if this have been mentioned yet but, I find Greninja vs Robin is heavily in Greninja's favour. I was vsing a friend using Robin and shuriken just out prioritize Robin's everything.
His aerial totally rekts Robin as well. Its just much faster and you could punish Robin really well.

 

[Spirst]

I'm not sure if it was already discussed, but how should I approach the peach MU? I have not seen any videos of it, and am not really sure how peach plays in general, but I got bodied by one earlier. Any tips? And also, any recommended videos of this MU?

And to SolarDeath, try forcing them out of camping. Make them uncomfortable with their stage presence. Get control early and fast. I believe Greninja can crawl under most shorthopped projectile. Some, like Samus, also have large hurtboxes, so small shurikens are easier to hit and faster than most other projectiles.

I have a video of it in my thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JguKqnkyByE&feature=youtu.be

For that game, I tried playing aggressively so that the Peach didn't have a chance to do much. Shurikens beat out turnips so there's that. Her floating dairs can be pretty annoying so you have to be a little patient and don't rush right in. One of her biggest killmoves is the f-air which I find Peach's tend to do near the ledge as you're returning back to the stage. To throw her off, you can do a hydropump back into the middle of the stage. Uthrow-uair doesn't really work well on a Peach that knows how to react. Peach's dair seems to beat Greninja's uair so I recommend following the uair with a bair instead. Usmash kills the float pretty well and shurikens, like usual, are great for pressure. Her recovery is kind of weird and not as easily gimped but her light weight makes KOs pretty manageable.

 

[SolarDeath]

Not sure if this have been mentioned yet but, I find Greninja vs Robin is heavily in Greninja's favour. I was vsing a friend using Robin and shuriken just out prioritize Robin's everything.
His aerial totally rekts Robin as well. Its just much faster and you could punish Robin really well.

The Robin I vs'ed was a heavy duty camper that anticipated my aerials and would grab me the second I'd hit his laggy shield. I'd try grabbing him instead of doing an aerial but he'd roll and dash attack, then proceed to camp the edge.
Or he would do a well time smash, he put huge amounts of pressure out for no reason.

 

[Life]

I lost to two different Greninjas in tournament over the weekend (well, one had stream lag) so I thought I'd give a word of advice:

Stop being afraid and just go ham on Rosalina.

Well, okay, that's a bit of an exaggeration. You can't just jump into Luma and expect it to work. Thing is, you guys are super fast, so while we're trying to desperately fend off your aggression, Luma is just off to the side punching the air. Meanwhile, we can't approach very easily through charged shuriken (we can let Luma tank the small ones to an extent). If you try to do anything halfway in this matchup, THAT'S when we get an opening.

Seriously. You're a blue anthropomorphic animal in a video game. Go fast.

On a related note, I was actually considering picking up Greninja as a secondary. Most of the matchups I have trouble with as Rosalina are fast characters such as Greninja, Sheik, and Captain Falcon. Thoughts?

 

[Spirst]

I lost to two different Greninjas in tournament over the weekend (well, one had stream lag) so I thought I'd give a word of advice:

Stop being afraid and just go ham on Rosalina.

Well, okay, that's a bit of an exaggeration. You can't just jump into Luma and expect it to work. Thing is, you guys are super fast, so while we're trying to desperately fend off your aggression, Luma is just off to the side punching the air. Meanwhile, we can't approach very easily through charged shuriken (we can let Luma tank the small ones to an extent). If you try to do anything halfway in this matchup, THAT'S when we get an opening.

Seriously. You're a blue anthropomorphic animal in a video game. Go fast.

On a related note, I was actually considering picking up Greninja as a secondary. Most of the matchups I have trouble with as Rosalina are fast characters such as Greninja, Sheik, and Captain Falcon. Thoughts?

I've played a few Rosalinas and honestly, I don't find that matchup to be exceedingly difficult for Greninja. Rosalina's spacing gets really screwy against Greninja who is playing it smart and moving in and out. Rosalina's light weight kind of negates Greninja's KO power issue as well. Shurikens are brutal and can easily tear Luma down as well as halt any approaches. An instant downwards shadow sneak on a shadowless stage also works wonders on a Rosalina trying to distance herself.

Greninja doesn't seem to have any real inherent flaws so he would work if you're trying to pick him up. Try out Sheik though since she can chain things better.

 

[BigHairyFart]

How am I supposed to use his water shuriken? I've played with all the customs, but I just can't find one that works for me in any situation.

 

[Spirst]

How am I supposed to use his water shuriken? I've played with all the customs, but I just can't find one that works for me in any situation.

I use the default shuriken for pressure. I think the custom 3 shuriken is the one that when it hits, brings them closer to you for a fsmash or usmash.

Like I said though, use the default shuriken for pressure. If a fully charged one hits, you can chase it down and follow with a grab or a fair. If they shield it, you can try to get a grab on them. A fully charged shuriken also displaces characters on a ledge that have no invulnerability frames. Uncharged shurikens can be used for interruptions as well as just being annoying. Try learning to wavebounce the shurikens too. Shurikens also have the ability to cancel out some projectiles. As I said in my own thread, I'm going to work on compiling a list of projectiles that the shuriken cancels out as well as what it doesn't.

 

[Kikaioh]

I use the default shuriken for pressure. I think the custom 3 shuriken is the one that when it hits, brings them closer to you for a fsmash or usmash.

Like I said though, use the default shuriken for pressure. If a fully charged one hits, you can chase it down and follow with a grab or a fair. If they shield it, you can try to get a grab on them. A fully charged shuriken also displaces characters on a ledge that have no invulnerability frames. Uncharged shurikens can be used for interruptions as well as just being annoying. Try learning to wavebounce the shurikens too. Shurikens also have the ability to cancel out some projectiles. As I said in my own thread, I'm going to work on compiling a list of projectiles that the shuriken cancels out as well as what it doesn't.

Totally agree with this. Shurikens are good for maintaining spacing, breaking your opponents chain of thought, setting up for grabs, and generally helping to control the flow of the match.

 

[Neath]

How do you deal with Sheik ? So far, that's the most struggling MU for me. I find myself rolling around in order to break free from her pressure but that's not very efficient =/
The needles give me a hard time too, I just can't count on my shuriken in neutral position.

 

[BigHairyFart]

I use the default shuriken for pressure. I think the custom 3 shuriken is the one that when it hits, brings them closer to you for a fsmash or usmash.

Like I said though, use the default shuriken for pressure. If a fully charged one hits, you can chase it down and follow with a grab or a fair. If they shield it, you can try to get a grab on them. A fully charged shuriken also displaces characters on a ledge that have no invulnerability frames. Uncharged shurikens can be used for interruptions as well as just being annoying. Try learning to wavebounce the shurikens too. Shurikens also have the ability to cancel out some projectiles. As I said in my own thread, I'm going to work on compiling a list of projectiles that the shuriken cancels out as well as what it doesn't.

The third one actually has two forms, a "charged" and an "uncharged." The charged one pulls them towards you, and the uncharged pops them upwards with surprising KB. I've been using the stagnant one mostly, but have had little success with it as well. Honestly, I really don't like the shurikens at all, especially coming from Link, who is like, projectile god.

They just pale in comparison, it seems.

 

[Sosuke]

shurikens are great, i haven't felt outcamped by any other character yet

 

[Jmacz]

One of my friends has began maining DeDeDe and I've noticed that knocking back his Gordo's seems to be rather inconsistent with Shurikens. Sometimes I knock them back at him, but other times they hit and nothing happens. If I were to make a guess it would seem that I have to release my Shuriken at the same time he hits the Gordo but even then it seems to not work from time to time.

Has anyone else figured out the exact timing of this, other wise I've had no issues with that MU.

 

[Gunla]

I've never really gotten a feel for the timing, but I know what you are meaning. D3's Gordo toss isn't too much of an issue for me because I can simply either just block it or jump right over it.

Shuriken spacing, from what I've found, doesn't work good with characters like D3 who have tools that can tank a Shuriken, fully charged or not. It's much better to enter with an entry tool like Nair instead of pressure.

 

[Jmacz]

I've never really gotten a feel for the timing, but I know what you are meaning. D3's Gordo toss isn't too much of an issue for me because I can simply either just block it or jump right over it.

Shuriken spacing, from what I've found, doesn't work good with characters like D3 who have tools that can tank a Shuriken, fully charged or not. It's much better to enter with an entry tool like Nair instead of pressure.

It's not something I'm always going to do but when I feel like knocking one back at him is a good idea I feel like a Shuriken would be the best defense for it, it comes out faster so it will be harder for him to react to it bouncing back. And I'm still getting the hang of SHFF Nairs, but it seems even when I time it correctly if he SH Fairs it will hit me no problem.

I see how this is situational, but it would be a nice trick to know for when a D3 decides to sit back and toss Gordo's.

 

[Sosuke]

gordos seem to be sometimes random from what i've seen, try charging your shuriken for a second before throwing it

they're harder to deflect when he bounces them near himself

 

[SolarDeath]

Question; has anyone gone against really good marios lately? The meta seems to be shifting because he can counter us easily. Flood is near the edge so our HP ends up hurting us, the cape to counter our hp gimps, (I've sded because of it...,) that approach game with the fireballs( they fireball in the air! Not ground level so shurikens can't hit them!,) also the combos man, they have priority over half of our aerials it seems! I had a sudden death game with a Mario or 2 last night and we literally would just short hop really close and back off, the tension was high! Whoever got a hit on whoever first put a **** load of dmg out lol.

 

[Jmacz]

To answer my own question about the Gordo's it seems that if you hit with a Shuriken at the peak of it's bounce it will be set back, otherwise it does nothing. I could still be wrong, but I played a while in slow motion and it seemed to be the way it worked.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

To answer my own question about the Gordo's it seems that if you hit with a Shuriken at the peak of it's bounce it will be set back, otherwise it does nothing. I could still be wrong, but I played a while in slow motion and it seemed to be the way it worked.

I've only ever been able to send back a Gordo when I hit it with a Shuriken right after the DDD sent it out. Never been successful afterwards.

 

[SolarDeath]

I know that if you tilt a, it'll knock it back however every time I've done so it hurt me but didn't send me flying like a rag doll

 

[bladewolf]

Can anyone offer some advice on fighting Mega Man? I honestly don't think he's that great of a character, and I usually beat him if I pick one of my secondaries, but I just can't seem to get anything going as Greninja in that MU. I have an easier time on Battlefield and Yoshi's, but he usually wins on FD.

 

[Spirst]

Can anyone offer some advice on fighting Mega Man? I honestly don't think he's that great of a character, and I usually beat him if I pick one of my secondaries, but I just can't seem to get anything going as Greninja in that MU. I have an easier time on Battlefield and Yoshi's, but he usually wins on FD.

I actually have some vs Megaman games on my thread here: http://smashboards.com/threads/spirsts-froggy-stuff.373924/

I have a number of more recent games I'm going to add tomorrow too if I can get over the plague of laziness. For Megaman, his mega upper utilt can KO you starting around 85% so be cautious of that. A fully charged shuriken can go through his lemons (mega buster shots) without interruption and if you space it, his shots won't be able to hit you. Perfect shielding and shield grabs will be extremely helpful in getting in. His dash attack has to be punished via a pivoted tilt because if you try a shield grab, it'll hurt you. If it's a campy Megaman, some shuriken pressure can diminish his options a bit by not by much. Megaman is a mid-range character and his shots can keep him just outside of your smash and tilt range so it can be tricky getting in. I wouldn't make it a habit of doing something predictable like constantly approaching with SH nairs as that'll get you utilted real quick. Play it carefully, and be very reactive to any little spacing mistake he makes. Greninja can mess Megaman up pretty badly once he gets in.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

I love how fluid Greninja feels. I felt like testing him out back when I first got the game and he just has a lot of neat tools. He's sort of a skill-gate character like Ike, but simultaneously has a lot of depth and potential. I like his projectile game and his balance of having good aerials and tilts/smashes.

 

[DrSoussou]

I've played a few Rosalinas and honestly, I don't find that matchup to be exceedingly difficult for Greninja. Rosalina's spacing gets really screwy against Greninja who is playing it smart and moving in and out. Rosalina's light weight kind of negates Greninja's KO power issue as well. Shurikens are brutal and can easily tear Luma down as well as halt any approaches. An instant downwards shadow sneak on a shadowless stage also works wonders on a Rosalina trying to distance herself.

Greninja doesn't seem to have any real inherent flaws so he would work if you're trying to pick him up. Try out Sheik though since she can chain things better.

I actually think Rosalina is one of Greninja's harder matchups. Can't gimp Rosalina because her recovery is godlike and she just has to wait and UpB from below. Small shuriken gets eaten by Luma, and even if you DO fire enough to pop it, it comes back in 7 seconds while your opponent runs away. Large shuriken is only good if you're catching your opponent's landing. If you're in neutral, she just uses Down-B and negates it. If you think that move has enough lag to allow you to run in and punish her for it, you're gonna eat a frame 4 downsmash and wish you hadn't. Greninja's grab game is one of his best attributes, and it gets completely negated by Luma, who can hit you with a smash attack anytime you go for a grab. If you're fighting an aggressive Rosalina, you have all these problems and more. Her dash-attack, roll, and down-smash cover almost all of your offense options that aren't stuffed by Luma, not to mention that Greninja really isnt a heavy character at all (rather average bulk, imo) and Rosalina can often land two hits for the price of one thanks to Luma.

I would love serious answers to this problem because I can't beat the best Rosalinas and I often feel like its not because I'm doing anything wrong.

 

[Funkermonster]

Heard Zard is a bad matchup for us, would anyone agree?

 

[momochuu]

greninja's up smash destroys rosalina

 

[DrSoussou]

Zard isn't a bad matchup for anyone lol, just use the shield button. Greninja generally destroys big, slow characters. Combos are a lot easier to string together on them and speed becomes readily apparent as an advantage to get around their hard-hitting moves. Flamethrower also doesn't last long enough to stop more than a couple shurikens.

Seriously though, water beats fire.

@ momochuu Greninja's UpSmash destroys everyone, hitting with it is the problem. You have to get in or under Rosalina's defenses to use it, which is the issue in general in that matchup

 

[Funkermonster]

Zard isn't a bad matchup for anyone lol, just use the shield button. Greninja generally destroys big, slow characters. Combos are a lot easier to string together on them and speed becomes readily apparent as an advantage to get around their hard-hitting moves. Flamethrower also doesn't last long enough to stop more than a couple shurikens.

Seriously though, water beats fire.

Well I dunno, some players around here say otherwise and have gotten a better grasp of the character

Charizard just destroys Greninja with its jabs, shieldgrabs, Nairs, punishes it with dash grabs, punishes its rolls with Dsmash, jumps over its Water Shurikens before proceeding to Firebreath it, edgeguards it with Firebreath and punishes it with Flare Blitz if it tries to go over Charizard when recovering, smacks Greninja with Nair or Fair if it tries to ledgejump, and just makes life very hard for it in general (which is ironic considering Water beats Fire in the Pokémon games).

Rock Smash screws up Greninja's juggles really badly because the super armour renders his multi-hit Uair much less effective. You can hit Greninja with the attack as he tries to juggle you most of the time. Obviously you can't exactly spam Rock Smash because it's pretty punishable and a good Greninja will wise up, but it still gives Charizard a strong option for dealing with juggles that a lot of characters don't have against Greninja. Also, airdodging really screws up Greninja's juggles in general. If you can limit the damage Greninja gets from Up Throw juggles, you're well on the way to beating him.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Flamethrower (angled down) is an amazing jump-in against Greninja. Totally screws him up if he's trying to charge a shuriken.

 

[SolarDeath]

Well I dunno, some players around here say otherwise and have gotten a better grasp of the character

Charizard just destroys Greninja with its jabs, shieldgrabs, Nairs, punishes it with dash grabs, punishes its rolls with Dsmash, jumps over its Water Shurikens before proceeding to Firebreath it, edgeguards it with Firebreath and punishes it with Flare Blitz if it tries to go over Charizard when recovering, smacks Greninja with Nair or Fair if it tries to ledgejump, and just makes life very hard for it in general (which is ironic considering Water beats Fire in the Pokémon games).
Rock Smash screws up Greninja's juggles really badly because the super armour renders his multi-hit Uair much less effective. You can hit Greninja with the attack as he tries to juggle you most of the time. Obviously you can't exactly spam Rock Smash because it's pretty punishable and a good Greninja will wise up, but it still gives Charizard a strong option for dealing with juggles that a lot of characters don't have against Greninja. Also, airdodging really screws up Greninja's juggles in general. If you can limit the damage Greninja gets from Up Throw juggles, you're well on the way to beating him.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Flamethrower (angled down) is an amazing jump-in against Greninja. Totally screws him up if he's trying to charge a shuriken.

Yeah in my experience, this ends up happening to me. I go in thinking oh this'll be an easy matchup. Next thing you know, I get killed at 40% and usually lose. However after the first game, Zards are usually predictable to me and I'll come back full throttle and play accordingly to their gameplays.

 

[TehSharpie]

Well I dunno, some players around here say otherwise and have gotten a better grasp of the character

Charizard just destroys Greninja with its jabs, shieldgrabs, Nairs, punishes it with dash grabs, punishes its rolls with Dsmash, jumps over its Water Shurikens before proceeding to Firebreath it, edgeguards it with Firebreath and punishes it with Flare Blitz if it tries to go over Charizard when recovering, smacks Greninja with Nair or Fair if it tries to ledgejump, and just makes life very hard for it in general (which is ironic considering Water beats Fire in the Pokémon games).
Rock Smash screws up Greninja's juggles really badly because the super armour renders his multi-hit Uair much less effective. You can hit Greninja with the attack as he tries to juggle you most of the time. Obviously you can't exactly spam Rock Smash because it's pretty punishable and a good Greninja will wise up, but it still gives Charizard a strong option for dealing with juggles that a lot of characters don't have against Greninja. Also, airdodging really screws up Greninja's juggles in general. If you can limit the damage Greninja gets from Up Throw juggles, you're well on the way to beating him.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Flamethrower (angled down) is an amazing jump-in against Greninja. Totally screws him up if he's trying to charge a shuriken.

I don't know man, this feels more like an even matchup than anything. Anybody can simply bait out air dodges (and some of our uthrow -> Uair strings are true combos).

Also keep in mind that Zard hurts himself with every Flare Blitz whether it hits or not meaning its more of a commitment should the player choose to use it and we can punish it easily upon shielding. Even if he or she tries to camp our upB with it, we should generally have time to shield and punish imo.

 

[bajisci]

greninja's up smash destroys rosalina

To build upon this, you can actually hit a grounded, standing rosalina with sweetspotted usmash because she is so tall.

 

[BigHairyFart]

To build upon this, you can actually hit a grounded, standing rosalina with sweetspotted usmash because she is so tall.

You can do this with a few characters because it has an early hitbox that can send them into the sweetspot.

 

[Funkermonster]

I don't know man, this feels more like an even matchup than anything. Anybody can simply bait out air dodges (and some of our uthrow -> Uair strings are true combos).

Also keep in mind that Zard hurts himself with every Flare Blitz whether it hits or not meaning its more of a commitment should the player choose to use it and we can punish it easily upon shielding. Even if he or she tries to camp our upB with it, we should generally have time to shield and punish imo.

Agree, it does sound like an even matchup overall and anyone can bait out airdodges. But having enough time to shield and punish his Flare Blitz after recovering high behind him? I kinda doubt that, especially if the opposing side can do it quickly enough as soon as we're in landing lag, plus it does a ton of shield damage and could probably be occasionally fatal in situations where our shields have been damaged. And I'm pretty sure that guy what spot on when he said Zard could use Nair or Fair if we try ledgejumping, Zard's Nair is just sooooo good and practically an all-purpose move.

 

[DrSoussou]

There were a couple of good points in that rebuttal post. Namely, the flamethrower edge guard and the rocksmash super armor to interrupt combos. While those are definitely strong strategies against Greninja, I still believe that intelligent use of speed will defeat Zard in neutral, which is where the tide will turn.

Flamethrower doesn't last long, and even if you have to keep recovering into it until it dies out in order to reach the ledge, you're never gonna take more than 10% for it. Use shadow sneak to recover when you can, it will always hit Charizard if he's angling his flames down, especially if you release high.

Edit: Flare Blitz to punish Greninja trying to recover overhead and onto the stage is definitely also a threatening counter option. I wouldn't risk it. Recover offensively with SS or grab ledge from underneath.

 

[Funkermonster]

There were a couple of good points in that rebuttal post. Namely, the flamethrower edge guard and the rocksmash super armor to interrupt combos. While those are definitely strong strategies against Greninja, I still believe that intelligent use of speed will defeat Zard in neutral, which is where the tide will turn.

Flamethrower doesn't last long, and even if you have to keep recovering into it until it dies out in order to reach the ledge, you're never gonna take more than 10% for it. Use shadow sneak to recover when you can, it will always hit Charizard if he's angling his flames down, especially if you release high.

Edit: Flare Blitz to punish Greninja trying to recover overhead and onto the stage is definitely also a threatening counter option. I wouldn't risk it. Recover offensively with SS or grab ledge from underneath.

Does this surprise you:: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vue2zT4UQik