Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[Spirst]

I'm at 290 wins and 19 loses on For Glory right now using Greninja almost exclusively. I LOVE hydropump so much. It really does mess with the opponent psychologically. It's amazing how fast Greninja can weave in and out and fake the opponent.

 

[Funkermonster]

Anybody figured out a mathup with Villager? This matchup gives me hell with Villager's Tilts, Aerials, Rocket, and Tree (when edgeguarding me)

 

[Jmacz]

It seems most peoples problems here are with Sonic and Rosalina, I'll add Captain Falcon and Bowser Jr to that list I really struggle against them as well.

I've seemed to have the most success against Bowser, is that just me or is that a good matchup for Greninja?

 

[Yojimbo]

I've only struggled against a very good Zero Suit Samus who used stun gun and grab approaches on me, but I didn't use Shadow Sneak or Counter enough in those matches.

I've also struggled against an incredibly aggressive Little Mac who basically kept me in the air. He had total ground control and I couldn't get any momentum. Any tips against him?

 

[Fastblade5035]

I've only struggled against a very good Zero Suit Samus who used stun gun and grab approaches on me, but I didn't use Shadow Sneak or Counter enough in those matches.

I've also struggled against an incredibly aggressive Little Mac who basically kept me in the air. He had total ground control and I couldn't get any momentum. Any tips against him?

Mac is s relatively easy for me.

My strategy is to punish his endlag and reckless dash attacks. Greninja is fast enough to do it, even if it's just with a dash attack.
If you two are on equal grounds, do t let him hit you. Hydro Pump, Shadow Sneak, Dodge and Shield are essential here. Once you punish his moves, I use Up Smash and juggle him. They can't do much aside from trying to Slip Counter.

Mac is difficult, and sometimes beating him is easier said than done, but I cannot stress it enough.

Punish his attacks and DO NOT let him control the field. Greninja has a lot of tools to prevent this, too.

 

[WieldyMinotaur]

It seems most peoples problems here are with Sonic and Rosalina, I'll add Captain Falcon and Bowser Jr to that list I really struggle against them as well.

I've seemed to have the most success against Bowser, is that just me or is that a good matchup for Greninja?

Had success against Bowser too, although dont remeber if it was a CPU or not. Think it was. But anyways I kinda rolled around him all the time so he had a hrad time catching me. He won though but I still felt I played pretty good and a good Greninja player should probably be able to make pancakes out of Bowser if it is that easy.

 

[Sneak Frog]

Not sure if it's been mentioned before elsewhere, but I somehow managed to Shadow Sneak out of Ganon's side B (on the ground anyways, I'm pretty sure anyone's fate is sealed if they're caught offstage). In any case, I'm pretty sure it's not while he has you in his hand, but rather in the split second when you're "airborne" before hitting the floor. Something along those lines, would be useful against any good Ganon players despite already having the matchup in Greninja's favor.

 

[AkashicSword]

I didn't read everything. But I feel Greninja has a real hard time with Rosalina and Sheik.

Greninja's biggest flaw is the lack of killpower combined with the pseudo-tether that is his grab. The lack of good grab makes certain universal punishes impossible for Greninja alone, and combined with lack of grab armor makes him a hard choice to use against characters who rely on quick shield pressure. (Sheik especially, since there seems to be no option against and air approach into jab besides shielding the whole thing and resetting to neutral)

Rosalina gets away with free shield pressure, since Greninja's throws are a minor inconvenience at best. Follow-ups are hard on Rosalina, especially considering how Luma can punish you for grabbing in the first place. You can punish dash attack all day, but guarding and throwing her repetitively gains you nothing and your shield will break. (Which is GG)

My advice?

Sheik: You're just as fast as her fortunately for you. If you read a dash attack, be sure to get a grab punish, since she can't jab out of that animation. For aerial approaches, try to best her in the air, since no grab is winning against a landing jab. Greninja can gimp her pretty well. Never underestimate Nair. Water Shuriken can help, but you're not outspacing needles, so save it for mid-range approach and ledge game. Sheik's air game is not as powerful as it's been, and yours has the edge. Bair will beat her Fair 9 times out of 10. Dair is solid, but be careful to not telegraph the approach, save this for when she is in the air with you, and not while she's grounded. Up-Air will win you more battles than Up-Smash against Sheik, since she can air dodge through Up-Smash with her fall speed. Play it at your pace, but never stop applying pressure, since Greninja won't last a minute against her pressure game.

Rosalina: Haven't got this one quite down yet. Killing Luma is a great help, and Water Shuriken will keep dash attacks and Luma at bay almost indefinitely. (she can block it with Down-B, but that means she can't respond, so she can't keep doing it forever.) Watch for her Fair, you can't beat it with anything but Up-air and Dair, and those are situational. If her back is toward you in the air, however, free game. Dash attack is a nuisance, and while blocking it is a temporary solution, it won't help much overall. Grab punish is an option, just be ready for it to be mutual if Luma is still around. Watch your shield, blocking four dash attacks within 30 seconds is shield break. (It was for me, hard to measure these things, so just be careful) Her jab can keep most of your approaches out, and can easily get her out of your grab despite your best efforts. If Luma is standing mid-range from Rosalina, stay out of the middle and deal with Luma. Rosalina lacks range outside of Luma shot and Star Bits, both originate from Luma, so attacking Luma when Roslaina can't punish is a good way to force her to approach hastily and clumsily. Luma can't shield or dodge, in exchange, his hitstun is cancelled by certain moves, so apply pressure at a moderate pace. If Luma is with Rosalina, don't approach. Make her approach and be sure to hit both. Shadow Sneak is dangerous, since it can be punished by the other party if either Rosalina or Luma fly, and not both. Overall, despite your spped, play this slow, since Rosalina can't speed it up herself.

 

[Fastblade5035]

I haven't fought a Sheik with Greninja yet, so I'll withdraw opinions there.

Similarly with Rosalina, I haven't played against any decent Rosalinas so I can't speak there either.


I do need help with Link though. I simply can't beat him. His projectiles are too good, and just Shadow Sneaking past them doesn't work forever, since the opponent can start predicting sneaks, shielding, and punishing our end lag.
Link's kill power > Greninjas
Link's vectoring capabilities and wright >> Greninja
These make it A LOT harder for us too. If we DO manage to get in (Shurikens uncharged only cancel out arrows; we don't have time to waste charging it all the way) link has good kill power, and improved recovery. I think our best bet at killing is to gimp and make sure he can't Clawshot to the stage. Otherwise, he can safely fall down to the stage with Fair if we launch him up.

Anyone else have experience with good links?

 

[Funkermonster]

I had trouble fighting Link players myself once, but not so much anymore (well, maybe a little). Our Water Shurikens are faster than all 3 of his Projectiles so I just get in range and use those against him, we still win the camping battle. The only one I have to worry about is his Bow (only because it has more range than our shurikens, but only if it's charged up), in which case I just shield it. To rack up damage I usually want to get a Dtilt > Ftilt or Uthrow > Uair to build percents, and try to force him into the air if possible. His aerials aren't so great compared to ours, and his recovery still kinda blows. It's not hard to gimp him with a good Bair or Hydro Pump.

I personally have much more trouble with Villager than Link, or at least a particular Villager player I know. Charged Water Shurikens are a death sentence for me since he/she can just pocket them and give them back to me, and his aerials make mine look like crap, particularly his Fair slingshot and his turnip Uair and Dair. I can't even edgeguard him very well because of his Fair and Lloyd Rockets, and his UpB Balloons is easily the most broken recovery I've ever seen (plz nerf). But seriously, his Fair slingshot and Lloyd Rocket are sooo annoying for me in this matchup.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Rosalina and Link are probably the hardest matchups.
Link simply because of his projectile spam / zoning with sword range. The easiest way I've found to punish Link players is to approach with dodges or a simple run before shielding. So many Links try and Fsmash or something, and hit the shield instead. From there, just pop them into the air and combo their a**. Proper zoning with small Water Shurikens also makes the Link dicey since most are on auto pilot spam and don't really pay attention to what they're doing. Otherwise, I try and do some Bair spacing because there's not much else that we can do.
Rosalina's moveset just counters everything we have. I find Water Shuriken with spacing most effective because most Rosalinas will get impatient and will try to send Luma to you. Once you see them do that, immediately begin charging Shadow Sneak and get behind Rosalina or before Luma hits you. From there, try and keep Rosalina as far apart from Luma as possible. Baiting moves from Rosalina is also critical as she has enough lag on her moves for Greninja to punish. Other tips include NO Dair as proper Usmash spacing beats it.

In general as a character, I find Greninja to be the most versatile. He can both camp and combo, but the only problem is the kill. Kinda reminds me of Falco from Brawl in that respect which is nice.

 

[PadWarrior]

His fastest smash attacks are side up and down in that order of speed right? Been using him online the last few days to get some experience.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Does anyone else think that Greninja's Dtilt is absolutely godly? It opens up so many combos at low percent and gives so many kill chances at high percent. Also, does anyone know how much lag Jab -> Dtilt has? If little to no lag, that combo would be an incredible pressuring tool.

 

[SaintChairface]

Something to consider when fighting link is that his up special lacks a vertical hitbox and has a slow consistent path. Since the timing is typically predictable. An easy read gets you a free down air for an almost guaranteed kill if you can push him off stage

 

[Gunla]

Does anyone else think that Greninja's Dtilt is absolutely godly? It opens up so many combos at low percent and gives so many kill chances at high percent. Also, does anyone know how much lag Jab -> Dtilt has? If little to no lag, that combo would be an incredible pressuring tool.

It's a really good for setting up. I guess you could say it.. I dunno, makes the ground shake?

As for Jab-> DTilt, it's got a short bit of a lag. Not too long, however.

 

[Virum]

I've been playing a bunch of this character today and I must say I love him. He's probably the most well rounded and well designed newcomer out of everyone. He's got a lot of great tools and a lot of versatility yet nothing too extreme. He's quite tricky and requires good reads yet he also has a really great set of physics. I don't think I'd ever get good enough to main him as my heart shall forever lie with Shulk and Little Mac but damn do I have one hell of a fun time play as and even against his character.

 

[PadWarrior]

What are some good combos for Mr. Frog Ninja? Fun fact, Greninja's trailer got me back into Pokemon after not playing it all these years.

 

[Spirst]

What are some good combos for Mr. Frog Ninja? Fun fact, Greninja's trailer got me back into Pokemon after not playing it all these years.

I tend to go for:
SH nair-jab
Uthrow-usmash/uair-uair/bair
Utilt-usmash
Fastfall dair (brings opponent down if the last hit doesn't connect)-usmash
Shuriken-fair/grab

Greninja can set up a number of things if you react and move quickly enough. Also, if you're feeling adventurous, you can even go for a footstool-dair just because.

 

[Sosuke]

so far i think Sheik is potentially Greninja's worst MU, just seems like a straight up better character

but who knows, it's early

 

[Riverside J]

Hello everyone. I'm name is Jigo, and this is my first Smash Bros game I'm taking seriously. I play Street Fighter 4 and now since a new Smash Bros has been released I don't want to miss a chance to play it as a main game.

After playing the game non stop online, I'm at a 61.00% win rate. I love the game and I use what I've learned from other fighters and applied it here to Smash. I get better everyday and I'm beating my friends who have been playing Smash for years.

With that said, my first tournament is this weekend, and from the looks of it mostly "Smash Rookies" will be there, but as a long time Street Fighter tournament player, I'm not taking any chances in overlooking anyone when I'm a rookie myself. I play Greninja and I really like him. How should I go about learning matchups in Smash? Matchups work kind of different in Smash than other fighters like picking the right stage and so forth. Any advice to prepare me would be great. Thanks guys.

 

[Spiderses]

I seem to be having the most possible trouble ever against Fox. I've played dozens of matches against my friend that mains Fox, but I still can't figure out /how/ to play against him. His aerials are so much faster, not to mention his reflector can effortless block my spacing with water shurikens.

Any idea on how to play against Fox with Greninja?

 

[SaintChairface]

Hello everyone. I'm name is Jigo, and this is my first Smash Bros game I'm taking seriously. I play Street Fighter 4 and now since a new Smash Bros has been released I don't want to miss a chance to play it as a main game.

After playing the game non stop online, I'm at a 61.00% win rate. I love the game and I use what I've learned from other fighters and applied it here to Smash. I get better everyday and I'm beating my friends who have been playing Smash for years.

With that said, my first tournament is this weekend, and from the looks of it mostly "Smash Rookies" will be there, but as a long time Street Fighter tournament player, I'm not taking any chances in overlooking anyone when I'm a rookie myself. I play Greninja and I really like him. How should I go about learning matchups in Smash? Matchups work kind of different in Smash than other fighters like picking the right stage and so forth. Any advice to prepare me would be great. Thanks guys.

There aren't a whole lot of specifics to go around because matchups are so varied, especially with such a large character list, but the general idea is that in any given matchup you have to recognize how your opponent turns the match to their advantage and what you need to do to turn the match to your advantage against their character and play style. Once you recognize these things you can look for stages that reduce your opponents opportunities and increase your own.

For the standard tournament legal stages some individual criteria to think about include:
-blast zone distance
-platforms and platform spacing
-moving platforms (such as yoshi's island and ferox)
-does the stage have shadows (a greninja specific quirk)
-is there a wall or empty space under the main platform
-edge shape (square, lip, or angled)

Depending on what stages your tournament sets as legal there may be more or less to think about though, so in the end it really just comes down to knowing as many match ups as possible, or at this point in metagame development, figuring that out on the fly and adapting as you go.

 

[TTYK]

I haven't fought a Sheik with Greninja yet, so I'll withdraw opinions there.

Similarly with Rosalina, I haven't played against any decent Rosalinas so I can't speak there either.


I do need help with Link though. I simply can't beat him. His projectiles are too good, and just Shadow Sneaking past them doesn't work forever, since the opponent can start predicting sneaks, shielding, and punishing our end lag.
Link's kill power > Greninjas
Link's vectoring capabilities and wright >> Greninja
These make it A LOT harder for us too. If we DO manage to get in (Shurikens uncharged only cancel out arrows; we don't have time to waste charging it all the way) link has good kill power, and improved recovery. I think our best bet at killing is to gimp and make sure he can't Clawshot to the stage. Otherwise, he can safely fall down to the stage with Fair if we launch him up.

Anyone else have experience with good links?

I first had very big problems with link and his projectiles, but really all the trouble that I had was that he had control of the field and I didnt. He was in the middle while I was at the edge. Take the middle, take the battle.

 

[bc1910]

Having a lot of trouble against Yoshi. His attacks are fast, deal lots of damage and aren't easy to punish. He can't land very well, but other than that I'm struggling to fight him. Any tips are welcome!

Also I've been playing some pretty good Rosalina players, ones that manage Luma properly and don't just roll around the entire match. I haven't been finding it too bad, she's a tough opponent but there are some options I haven't seen mentioned. From what I can work out, her projectile absorb doesn't actually benefit her in any way other than letting her avoid damage. Because the animation lasts so long however, you can frame trap her with a grab or dash attack after throwing the shuriken. Also, if Rosalina sets up Luma a few spaces in front of her, bounce (Dair) is really useful to attack Luma. It's very hard for Luma to punish and forces Rosalina to come to you or call Luma back.

 

[JOE!]

Full charge a shuriken vs Rosie, luma can't stop it, and if she down bs you can run and punish, and free grab on block since Luna is hit

 

[Yan-Yan]

In my opinion I think Greninja and Lil Mac is a 50:50mu because Greninja can spam shuriken or full charge shuriken and go in with a SH Nair+Jab or Grab, his Hydro Pump is amazing LOL Once you're near Lil Mac while he recovers, I always punish Dsmash his recovery then go for the hydro pump but DO NOT ROLL into his attacks! So make sure to keep Lil Mac in the air lol

 

[Marilink]

I played a Japanese ROB in For Glory that made me look like a three-year-old girl playing Smash for the first time. I just could not handle that match-up for some reason. Maybe the ROB player was just really a lot better than me--I haven't really played any others since. I had a hard time getting around lasers, and his Downthrow followups were inescapable and 100% deadly. I dunno, I just had a really rough time with him.

 

[Sneak Frog]

I played a Japanese ROB in For Glory that made me look like a three-year-old girl playing Smash for the first time. I just could not handle that match-up for some reason. Maybe the ROB player was just really a lot better than me--I haven't really played any others since. I had a hard time getting around lasers, and his Downthrow followups were inescapable and 100% deadly. I dunno, I just had a really rough time with him.

You wouldn't be the only one, I really have a hard time dealing with ROB as well. It just seems tough to approach him in general from my experiences. Dair isn't a good option either because of that USmash ROB has. For the most part I will need to play patiently and wait for openings.

 

[WieldyMinotaur]

Played a Little Mac for several games today. He beat me in every game except one. I figured to keep away from him, stop his dashes using Water Shruikens and try to grab him instead of outright beating him to avoid that counter. It worked one time. The one or two matches afterwards did not work.

 

[Riverside J]

There aren't a whole lot of specifics to go around because matchups are so varied, especially with such a large character list, but the general idea is that in any given matchup you have to recognize how your opponent turns the match to their advantage and what you need to do to turn the match to your advantage against their character and play style. Once you recognize these things you can look for stages that reduce your opponents opportunities and increase your own.

For the standard tournament legal stages some individual criteria to think about include:
-blast zone distance
-platforms and platform spacing
-moving platforms (such as yoshi's island and ferox)
-does the stage have shadows (a greninja specific quirk)
-is there a wall or empty space under the main platform
-edge shape (square, lip, or angled)

Depending on what stages your tournament sets as legal there may be more or less to think about though, so in the end it really just comes down to knowing as many match ups as possible, or at this point in metagame development, figuring that out on the fly and adapting as you go.

Thanks for the help. I was able to get 2nd place at my first Smash Tournament in Chicago. Imagine that. It was super hard. They were good players.

 

[Dwho?]

I've only struggled against a very good Zero Suit Samus who used stun gun and grab approaches on me, but I didn't use Shadow Sneak or Counter enough in those matches.

I've also struggled against an incredibly aggressive Little Mac who basically kept me in the air. He had total ground control and I couldn't get any momentum. Any tips against him?

In my experience with Lil mac, our jabs are faster than his. We can throw a star out and bait the approach and jab. The key is to keep Lil mac in the air. Always throw up or off stage and then keep pressure on him.

 

[Kikaioh]

Full charge a shuriken vs Rosie, luma can't stop it, and if she down bs you can run and punish, and free grab on block since Luna is hit

I would also recommend this. Fully-charged shurikens make it less safe for Rosalina to use Luma, since they can go through Luma and hit Rosalina if she tries to attack.

Also, for me it's been good to try and separate Luma and Rosalina when possible. One way is to hit Rosalina away from Luma, but you can also hit Luma farther away from Rosalina using smash attacks, which also helps give an advantage. So if Rosalina is offstage, I think it can help sometimes to go after Luma. Killing off Luma also puts Rosalina at a disadvantage, so I focus on getting rid of Luma when I have the opportunity (I think by hitting it off a ledge sometimes works, but I also think Luma might have its own life meter, so if it's hit too many times it dies off).

 

[MoosyDoosy]

I would also recommend this. Fully-charged shurikens make it less safe for Rosalina to use Luma, since they can go through Luma and hit Rosalina if she tries to attack.

Also, for me it's been good to try and separate Luma and Rosalina when possible. One way is to hit Rosalina away from Luma, but you can also hit Luma farther away from Rosalina using smash attacks, which also helps give an advantage. So if Rosalina is offstage, I think it can help sometimes to go after Luma. Killing off Luma also puts Rosalina at a disadvantage, so I focus on getting rid of Luma when I have the opportunity (I think by hitting it off a ledge sometimes works, but I also think Luma might have its own life meter, so if it's hit too many times it dies off).

Against a good Luma, it's incredibly hard to get off a fully charged Water Shuriken. Granted, it works easy against CPU's. But yeah, Rosalina and Luma are like the Ice Climbers from SSBB in that if you kill the other Ice Climber/Luma, it makes life hella easier against the remaining Ice Climber/Rosalina. And Luma does have a separate damage meter that's not visible, so if you apply enough damage, Luma'll die quickly enough.

 

[Spirst]

Against a good Luma, it's incredibly hard to get off a fully charged Water Shuriken. Granted, it works easy against CPU's. But yeah, Rosalina and Luma are like the Ice Climbers from SSBB in that if you kill the other Ice Climber/Luma, it makes life hella easier against the remaining Ice Climber/Rosalina. And Luma does have a separate damage meter that's not visible, so if you apply enough damage, Luma'll die quickly enough.

Yep. I believe Luma has about 50% of HP before kicking the bucket. The instant downwards shadow sneak, I find, is also pretty useful against a Rosalina trying to space herself out.

 

[Kikaioh]

Against a good Luma, it's incredibly hard to get off a fully charged Water Shuriken. Granted, it works easy against CPU's. But yeah, Rosalina and Luma are like the Ice Climbers from SSBB in that if you kill the other Ice Climber/Luma, it makes life hella easier against the remaining Ice Climber/Rosalina. And Luma does have a separate damage meter that's not visible, so if you apply enough damage, Luma'll die quickly enough.

One thing I find that helps against a good Luma is to charge the shuriken while hopping in a direction. It makes it a little harder for the opponent to gauge the distance to try and respond --- if you're moving backward they have to go a further distance to attack, if you're moving forward they might initially think you're going in for a regular attack instead. And if they respond in a way that you can tell they're wise to the shuriken, you can bail on the shot early and adjust. Also, sometimes it's enough to just throw out the shuriken quickly to interrupt them to mess with their rhythm, since you're in the air I think you can actually hit Rosalina above Luma if you let the shuriken go at the right time, though it takes a bit to get the timing right, also if they're moving I think there are moments when a normal shuriken might land a hit on Rosalina (can't remember though).

 

[2-DJeff]

Also hey guys! I'm 2djeff aka(streetshark) a former high level ic/falco/lucario player in brawl. Been maining greninja and lucario day one.I've experience most mu at a high level given that I live in fl and I have some greninja input if we are going over mu! Hope I can help and you guys could help me also with mu's

 

[Jmacz]

Has anyone else had any issues with Diddy Kong? I just faced my first one today and had a lot of trouble with him, for whatever reason I had a lot of trouble killing him. I was facing a kid who I had beaten a few games in a row and he switched to Diddy and stomped me. I beat him the third game because I realized he was stupid enough to let me bait out his dash attack and not dodge a substitute, but that wouldn't of worked against anyone good.

 

[Jahordon]

I love Greninja, but I am starting to doubt him for his lack of approach, too. Shuriken can't get past the numerous reflectors and is easy to spot dodge. Shadow sneak isn't reliable. Nair is fast and lag less, but I think it is easily shield-grabbed. Bair can outrange grabs and is lag free, but it is hard to land on small characters. Maybe I am underestimating these two, or maybe nobody in this game has reliable approaches. Can anybody offer their opinion?

 

[Spirst]

I love Greninja, but I am starting to doubt him for his lack of approach, too. Shuriken can't get past the numerous reflectors and is easy to spot dodge. Shadow sneak isn't reliable. Nair is fast and lag less, but I think it is easily shield-grabbed. Bair can outrange grabs and is lag free, but it is hard to land on small characters. Maybe I am underestimating these two, or maybe nobody in this game has reliable approaches. Can anybody offer their opinion?

I don't feel like Greninja is really strong at approaching. I've heard people say they approach with SH nairs but honestly, that's not a very safe option and won't be as effective against real competent players. He does have great mobility on his side though. I feel like approaching with Greninja is more about using his speed and baiting the opponent into doing something that you can follow-up on as opposed to straight-on approaching. The shuriken is really handy, but can be limited in some matchups against speedier characters and those with reflectors.

 

[Jahordon]

So how do you deal with somebody like Link who negates our shuriken and harasses us with his projectiles?