• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

Status
Not open for further replies.

MartinAW4

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Messages
312
With the weak KO potential of SD, I think it's more about pressure and limiting your opponents options as opposed to being a reliable kill move. It's about instilling the mindset of, "Okay, if I try to camp Greninja, he'll get through and shadow dash me." Against characters trying to keep you at midrange like Mega Man with his lemons, shadow dash can really mess with him. It can help against Rosalina as well when evading a luma shot or just getting in.
Yeah, it works for punishing projectiles and moves with long recovery times, but because of how fast Greninja`s roll is, I find that you can get a better punish with roll -> Dtilt if you roll behind them. And if you roll in front of them, roll -> Usmash or Fsmash has only slightly less range than SD, but is faster, safer and deals twice as much damage without taking up a move slot.

That`s why I prefer Shadow Sneak over SD because SS has some unique uses that cannot be replicated by any other of its moves while SD`s function can be sufficiently replaced by a roll + attack of your choice.

At least that is how it seems to me so far, but I could be missing something and SD`s extra range might allow you to punish some attacks that rolls don`t or attack from a safer position. And unprepared opponents could get caught off guard a couple of times thinking they are attacking from a safe distance only to still get hit by a SD punish. So I guess SD has its uses in some matchups but overall, I think SS is the better move.
 

#HBC | Laundry

Grand Sage of Swag
Joined
Mar 22, 2011
Messages
3,954
Location
Under a bridge
3DS FC
3926-6895-8719
I have to think the capability to control SS's range is more important in most situations. Being able to use it quickly right in front of you is a godsend in some cases, something that SD denies you from doing. It's definitely not bad to have that distance right away but it's very much a fringe case rather than a standard use sort of deal.

:186:
 

Lemonade Candy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
143
Location
Atlanta
NNID
LemonadeAcid
Fighting Villager is a hard match up. Most villagers like to use gyroid to restrict movement options. Little do most villagers know, its the easiest move to punish that he/she has. When I see the start up of it on the ground/air (before it moves) I normally dash attack, up smash, or dash grab and start approaching from the air with up airs nairs and bairs. Keep in mind that his up, neutral, and down air have long active frames. Knowing that made a big difference for me. I dont edge guard either. Greninja's dair only resets his recovery if you hit him. As for campy ones that sit behind the tree and fair or gyroid, I just wait until the tree goes away. It's easier that way.

All in all I rely on most villagers to jump so that I can either score a up air, nair, or up smash. Its really annoying but just play patient.
 

FlareHabanero

Banned via Warnings
Joined
May 20, 2012
Messages
16,443
Location
New Jersey
Lloid Rocket can be shot down using an uncharged shot, but only when it's moving. When it's stationary for a second, it can endure a weak shot. When Villager rides Lloid Rocket it can endure more punishment. It can also punish a badly timed Shadow Sneak due to the pause the Lloid Rocket has, however using Substitute against Lloid Rocket can give you a lot of momentnum allowing you to approach/punish quickly.

Also one detail I noticed is that when Villager tries to grab Greninja, there is enough lag with Villager's grab where you can attack with a jab. So if Villager blocks one of your tilts then tries to grab, Greninja can punish Villager with a quick jab combo.
 

DrSoussou

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
407
Location
SoFL / CFL
3DS FC
2552-2785-0774
Same as every other campy character (Link, Samus, Rosalina etc), just get in and stay there past their defenses. Deal damage, juggle, and try not to take too many hits while you're outside.
 

Coffee™

I need it....
Joined
Aug 2, 2008
Messages
2,205
Location
SFL
I have to think the capability to control SS's range is more important in most situations. Being able to use it quickly right in front of you is a godsend in some cases, something that SD denies you from doing. It's definitely not bad to have that distance right away but it's very much a fringe case rather than a standard use sort of deal.

:186:
SS is decent but it's pretty useless outside of being a close to mid range mixup imo. The move is too slow to execute and too telegraphed to be anything but. I've been trying out SD a lot more recently andI'm really liking a lot of the options it presents for Greninja's mid to long range as well as punish game.
 

FlareHabanero

Banned via Warnings
Joined
May 20, 2012
Messages
16,443
Location
New Jersey
Shadow Sneak seems to be stage dependent. The little shadow that shows up during the attack has varing degrees of visability, like it's completely gone on Pac-Maze and Balloon Fight but it's blunt on Living Room and Green Hill Zone. Though it's a double edge sword in the sense that while the shadow is hidden away from the opponent, it's also hidden for the Greninja player. This means that in order to pull of successful attacks you'll need to understand the timing of Shadow Sneak by heart.
 

Gunla

wow, gaming!
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Messages
9,069
Location
Iowa
I wouldn't be shocked if there was honestly some rule against counterpicking certain FDs when you play as Greninja, but only if it manages to be a large issue.

On those stages where it's hidden, it's a real lifesaver for surprises, but on those blatant ones, whiffing it out for surprises is not an option.
 
Last edited:

FlareHabanero

Banned via Warnings
Joined
May 20, 2012
Messages
16,443
Location
New Jersey
Luckily it only seems to effect at least 3 different stages for the 3DS version, so it's nothing drastic. I think on the Wii U version the shadow would be hidden on the Duck Hunt stage, though I'll need to experiment.
 

Funkermonster

The Clown
Joined
May 19, 2013
Messages
1,460
Location
Mesa, Arizona
NNID
Funkermonster
3DS FC
3308-4834-0412
How to kill Edgeguard Palutena? I fought one earlier today and could barely take off one of her stocks, it seems really hard to stop her Warp/UpB and I lost the game when she killed me first.
 

#HBC | Laundry

Grand Sage of Swag
Joined
Mar 22, 2011
Messages
3,954
Location
Under a bridge
3DS FC
3926-6895-8719
SS is decent but it's pretty useless outside of being a close to mid range mixup imo. The move is too slow to execute and too telegraphed to be anything but. I've been trying out SD a lot more recently andI'm really liking a lot of the options it presents for Greninja's mid to long range as well as punish game.
You're really underestimating the mix-up power SS has. As far as I'm aware, SD can't do any of the general techs that SS can do (outside of canceling ending lag on aerials) because it goes a set distance without charging. Its set range also makes it harder to use it as an OoS tool as well though I'm a little foggier on the range. I won't deny the usefulness of SD in some match-ups, I just think that SS is better in most situations.

That said, if you think that SD is a better tool and you prefer it more, by all means, continue to use it. Part of the reason custom movesets exist is for the player to use the tools they like the most and having the option to change the ones they don't.

:186:
 

Sosuke

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Aug 3, 2007
Messages
25,073
Switch FC
8132-9932-4710
in theory sd would be the safer option for escaping multi-hit moves, but you lose the potential kill-move punish
 

KERO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
411
I've always been fairly partial to SD myself as a surprise attack to disrupt an opponent's momentum, as a general escape option, and as a mid-range aerial punish. That said, I recently played For Glory, and I found myself rather enjoying the added kill power SS gives as well as having another option to punish people up close. The one thing I don't like is how many options using SS takes away before it comes out. I feel it kinda takes the wind out of Greninja's overall playstyle. I could see myself using it for certain MUs, though, if it becomes preferable to do so, but generally I think I'll stick with SD (same applies to Shifty Shuri).
 

Seith

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 24, 2014
Messages
29
Location
Look Behind You
SS is useful for canceling dair though, although if you whiff dair and then whiff SS, then you have the lag from the end of SS to get you punished.
 

KERO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
411
Thing is, as people get used to the game, they'll be expecting a SS, which is actually more punishable than Dair's landing lag. SD can also cancel aerial landing lag and gets you away from the area, making it a better mix-up as the opponent has to anticipate both that you'll use it and the direction you intend to go. Personally, I think that Dair doesn't even have that much landing lag to begin with, especially for the stall-and-fall category it falls into, so generally if you use it sparingly enough to catch opponents off guard, you shouldn't have to worry too much about avoiding the punish.
 

Coffee™

I need it....
Joined
Aug 2, 2008
Messages
2,205
Location
SFL
You're really underestimating the mix-up power SS has. As far as I'm aware, SD can't do any of the general techs that SS can do (outside of canceling ending lag on aerials) because it goes a set distance without charging. Its set range also makes it harder to use it as an OoS tool as well though I'm a little foggier on the range. I won't deny the usefulness of SD in some match-ups, I just think that SS is better in most situations.

That said, if you think that SD is a better tool and you prefer it more, by all means, continue to use it. Part of the reason custom movesets exist is for the player to use the tools they like the most and having the option to change the ones they don't.

:186:
SS and SD are almost the same move, their mixup potential is pretty similar albeit a bit varied due to the different distances each move can travel, so I don't think I'm really underestimating it. However, despite being similar SS and SD are used in different scenarios and imo SS is just a bit too predictable and telegraphed for it be as useful overall as a mixup in comparison to SD outside of certain scenarios, "most of the time" CQC scenarios.
 
Last edited:

DrSoussou

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
407
Location
SoFL / CFL
3DS FC
2552-2785-0774
To end this debate and hopefully get us back on the track of discussing matchups, I would like to point out that the next 3DS patch is rumored to correct certain character traits and make everyone more similar to their Wii U counterparts before release.

Rosalina's Luma nerf has been confirmed: Luma will now re spawn after 12-13 seconds rather than 7. Greninja is alleged to be unable to cancel Dair landing lag or airdodge landing lag with any form of Side-B. Sorry guys.
 

Spirst

 
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Messages
3,474
To end this debate and hopefully get us back on the track of discussing matchups, I would like to point out that the next 3DS patch is rumored to correct certain character traits and make everyone more similar to their Wii U counterparts before release.

Rosalina's Luma nerf has been confirmed: Luma will now re spawn after 12-13 seconds rather than 7. Greninja is alleged to be unable to cancel Dair landing lag or airdodge landing lag with any form of Side-B. Sorry guys.
I honestly don't think this is a big deal. Eliminating one of our options isn't fun, but it wasn't even a great option in the first place. If that's the only nerf Greninja receives, I'm fine.
 

elusiveTranscendent

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Messages
1,649
Location
Central NJ
NNID
elusiveTranscend
3DS FC
2105-8699-9997
Greninja is alleged to be unable to cancel Dair landing lag or airdodge landing lag with any form of Side-B. Sorry guys.
Damn. .---. That sucks.

I honestly don't think this is a big deal. Eliminating one of our options isn't fun, but it wasn't even a great option in the first place. If that's the only nerf Greninja receives, I'm fine.
Yeah. Hope that's the only nerf. :x
 

Sosuke

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Aug 3, 2007
Messages
25,073
Switch FC
8132-9932-4710
i'd trade that for not bouncing off the ledge with up-b any day
 

elusiveTranscendent

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Messages
1,649
Location
Central NJ
NNID
elusiveTranscend
3DS FC
2105-8699-9997
i'd trade that for not bouncing off the ledge with up-b any day
Yeah but, come on, that's not going to happen. :/

Sheesh. Since they're cracking down on that, I hope they don't end up getting rid of any other SS techniques we've got.

Edit: oh yeah. This is getting quite off topic. Back to match ups, ay?
 
Last edited:

KERO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
411
If that's the only nerf Greninja gets, I can totally be okay with it (cancelling Dair with Shadow Sneak would've been fairly useless down the line anyway as people got more used to it). I just don't want his Usmash nerfed at all.
 

Spirst

 
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Messages
3,474
If that's the only nerf Greninja gets, I can totally be okay with it (cancelling Dair with Shadow Sneak would've been fairly useless down the line anyway as people got more used to it). I just don't want his Usmash nerfed at all.
Usmash is great so I hope it doesn't get nerfed either. Also, I wil cry if they mess with the hydro pump by reducing the windbox/velocity effect. I also hope that instant downwards shadow sneak isn't removed as it does have some niche uses.

And yes, please get rid of that stupid bouncing off the ledge with an up-b. It's SO frustrating when it happens.
 

Funkermonster

The Clown
Joined
May 19, 2013
Messages
1,460
Location
Mesa, Arizona
NNID
Funkermonster
3DS FC
3308-4834-0412
How to kill Edgeguard Palutena? I fought one earlier today and could barely take off one of her stocks, it seems really hard to stop her Warp/UpB and I lost the game when she killed me first.
Okay so to rail this thread back to the topic of matchup, can anyone help me with this question (not counting custom moves)? Killing Fox and Falco also feels a little frustrating sometimes too, with their SideB covering a good distance and no longer putting them in a helpless state.
 

Accidental

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
20
3DS FC
4957-2604-8969
Sonic Help please?
I have a tough time with this one. All I can say is make him approach you. Dent him with shurikens and wait for an opportunity to punish with a grab. You want sonic above you, because your uair outprioritizes his dair. If he goes off stage, gimp him with a hydro pump. When he uses the side b, a well timed reverse shadow sneak can catch him. TL;DR don't try to run up to him.
 

Spirst

 
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Messages
3,474
Sonic Help please?
Can't play this one like you can most of the other roster since Sonic is a bigger "in your face" character than Greninja is. Shurikens stop his spin dash, which is helpful to know. Shield-pivot grab will also be very helpful if he ends up behind you. His recovery is a prime candidate for hydro pump shenanigans. Have to play more defensive and punish-heavy this time.
 

Makani

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 27, 2014
Messages
100
Location
Detroit, M.I.
NNID
CLF.Makani
Sonic Help please?
I've found that infinite jabbing limits their approach options along with spamming shurikens. Your infinite jab will out prioritize their spin dash, after you finish and they fly away dash in for a follow up and back off afterwards if needed.
 

BlazeFlipnotes

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
40
NNID
a
I already have the fact that you should use his recovery to ruin Ness's recovery, but really asides that,I have a hard time dealing with him.
 

Sneak Frog

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
61
Location
confirmed, sending supplies.
NNID
Scrappert
I already have the fact that you should use his recovery to ruin Ness's recovery, but really asides that,I have a hard time dealing with him.
Same here. As predictable as Ness can be, it's a little strange how I have a harder time dealing with him than I'd imagine. Especially considering that I use him as a secondary...
 

KERO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
411
The thing about Ness is that you really can't safely get near his shield because of OoS Nair. His Nair has more range than it looks, so if you try approaching with standard Greninja stuff, you're going to get punished. Not to mention, if you approach with a well-spaced Fair, there really is no way to safely punish an attempted OoS Nair. I found the best option is to simply outcamp him with Water Shuriken and stuffing his aerial approaches with a well-timed Usmash. If he predicts it and tries to airdodge, you get a free jab (not sure if this will be true in v 1.0.4, but I'd imagine it would be), which will still send him away. Btw, and this applies to jabs and any grounded multi-hits, if you get trapped in PK Fire, DI toward the ground as much as possible. Greninja has a very weird quality where his landing box is lower than most characters (this is why he absolutely cannot land on BF's top platform from a single jump at the bottom level despite appearing to be above the platform when he jumps. Even Uair won't get him on top of it. The game thinks Greninja is still technically below the platform because of his weird landing box. Only Dair, which makes you jump a little higher during the animation will allow you to get up there without a double jump). However, this is extremely useful as it allows Greninja to very easily escape quite a few ground multi-hits, including PK Fire.

Another thing regarding Ness is that he is a floaty character, so Hydro Pump generally won't be able to really gimp him in any sustainable way if he's already fairly high up. You need to get him to use his double jump and hit him afterward. If you manage to get him level with the stage or just slightly above it offstage lacking a double jump, he will be forced to use his PK Thunder, but be wary of when he can and cannot make it simply by holding the control stick toward the stage. Once you know he's forced to PK Thunder, don't jump off-stage until you see him starting the move up. Once he does, Hydro Pump immediately in a way that the stream hits him as fast as possible. You don't need to be fancy; you just need even the smallest push to mess his recovery up, but you need to do it quick and accurately. Once he uses it, you have almost no leniency; you need to act as quickly as possible. Some other useful things to note are that Dair cancels PK Thunder out like most projectiles, and to be extremely careful when above him. PK Thunder has been buffed in this game, so you want to try and get away from him as quickly as possible so that you can fall to the ground before the move reaches you and so that you have ample time to react if he tries to hit you with PKT2 instead.

Finally, be very wary of grabs. Ness can combo out of them at low percents and kill with Bthrow at higher percents. Luckily, our jab is fast enough to usually get through any shield grab attempts, and if we find him shielding our multi-hit jab, wait until the his shield is just out of range for the multi-hit to end it with the final hit (which has more range than jab 3 actually, believe it or not). If he tries to punish it with a running grab, we can roll away, spotdodge, or jump; if he drops his shield early, the final hit of multi-jab will create more distance between you two, and if he rolls toward you, we can roll away, jump or spotdodge before he can turn around and grab. If he shields your first jab, you can still get out before he grabs you, but be careful of him predicting a roll or the spotdodge. On the odd chance that you throw out a jab three at max-range and he shields it, I'm pretty sure he still can't punish you if he shields it unless he predicts your next action (bar jumping, but that puts you in a slightly disadvantageous position in this MU).

I think Ness is overall a fairly tough MU for Greninja since Greninja has to play it slightly unconventionally and *gasp* our approaching options are greatly limited due to OoS Nair being such a good move, but I still feel it's in our favor. As long as we avoid Ness's grabs and PKT2, he has a fairly tough time killing us since Usmash outranges all of his aerials iIrc. You just need to play the MU fairly safe and keep Ness the hell out.

This is pretty much what I've learned from playing a local Ness who's been playing the character since Brawl, so if I missed anything or if I made an error, please inform me.
 
Last edited:

TheOnlyGBeast

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 6, 2014
Messages
38
NNID
G-Beast
3DS FC
4442-0111-1914
Am I the only player who has had trouble vs Dedede? I find him, even before 1.0.4, exceedingly difficult to KO to the point where I just resort to my other main(Lucario) to overcome the matchup
 

elusiveTranscendent

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Messages
1,649
Location
Central NJ
NNID
elusiveTranscend
3DS FC
2105-8699-9997
Am I the only player who has had trouble vs Dedede? I find him, even before 1.0.4, exceedingly difficult to KO to the point where I just resort to my other main(Lucario) to overcome the matchup
I believe uncharged-semicharged shurikens could knock back his spike thingers. (Dunno how effective this will be now with the water shuriken nerf.) Other than that, just play it safe when approaching. Deal damage while you're in, but make sure to not take hits. All of his attacks pack quite a punch. .—.

Not the best at describing match ups. :X Maybe somebody else could help a bit more?
 

KERO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
411
I haven't really played any good D3s, and I can't say much at all now given how much Greninja has changed post-patch (in 1.0.3, he could combo D3 into oblivion and kill with a well timed Usmash or Fair), but it should be noted that Greninja's completely uncharged shuriken bounced the Gordo back in 1.0.3, and given D3's Gordo nerf and that shuriken still has the same start-up, that should still apply.
 

Gunla

wow, gaming!
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Messages
9,069
Location
Iowa
@ KERO KERO
As a person who knows quite a few D3 mains, I've been able to test this; I'm still able to use uncharged shurikens to counter Gordo.
 

#HBC | Laundry

Grand Sage of Swag
Joined
Mar 22, 2011
Messages
3,954
Location
Under a bridge
3DS FC
3926-6895-8719
Personally speaking I've never had a good time against Yoshi players. Any tips on how I could handle them better?

:186:
 

TheOnlyGBeast

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 6, 2014
Messages
38
NNID
G-Beast
3DS FC
4442-0111-1914
Personally speaking I've never had a good time against Yoshi players. Any tips on how I could handle them better?

:186:
I've been able to consistently beat a couple of good yoshi players in my area, I find that patience and proper spacing of my aerials helps a lot. I've found it risky to spend too much time on the ground vs Yoshi, though I take any chances to ftilt or fmash him I can get... and throwing fully charged water shurikens while he's recovering can mess with him
 

a Link to the Forums

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 28, 2014
Messages
342
Location
Australia, Victoria
Okay, so Greninja got nerfed. Yes, it sucks, I'm a Greninja main myself. However, I still think he's a solid character. From watching his official reveal this version is actually more what I though he would play like than what he was in 1.0.3. He is still solid with great mobility and tools just nerfed. I'll still keep him in my group of mains. I'm sure us Greninja mains will adapt to this loss.
 

TheOnlyGBeast

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 6, 2014
Messages
38
NNID
G-Beast
3DS FC
4442-0111-1914
Can anyone tell me how to deal with advanced Sonics?

They keep on beating me ;~;
good bair spacing is key, sonic's aerials can't beat it. A lot of Sonics, I've noticed, tend to jump->aerial after hitting you with the spindash, even if you shield it. An oos bair deals with that well.

Try your best to gimp his recovery/edgeguard him, it will help a lot
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom