Marth Vs. Lucina and Spacing

[Ashpash]

Not sure if this has been talked about before, but,

One of the first things I thought about when they mentioned Lucina is basically a clone of Marth only without a tipper was, won't Marth still have (in theory) the advantage of being rewarded for perfect spacing?

I realize a skilled Marth player trying to pull off follow-ups (especially in Smash 4) might not want to land every hit as a tipper since the increased knockback would make follow-ups more difficult.

But the advantage Marth has always had is his range, and the result from good spacing is tipper --> increased dmg. and knockback, AND you're as distanced from the opponent as possible.

So basically Marth with good spacing landing tippers will outdamage Lucina with good spacing, and have more K.O potential with tipper smash attacks.

I'm not sure how Lucina feels compared to Marth; maybe she has some other subtle advantages, but assuming she's the same, with only her damage and knockback being in between Marth's tipper and sour-spot (which I assume), a skilled Marth would outshine a skilled Lucina.

Are there some advantages Lucina has that balances this out? I mean, not having to constantly sweet spot is an advantage in itself, but wouldn't that just give you less incentive to space effectively? GAH so confusing I'll stop now.

Any thoughts?

 

[Zano]

for one, no one is going to be able to space for **** with 3ds controls so marth won't even be worth anything till wii u

 

[Emblem Lord]

My thoughts are that Lucina is "baby's first Hero-King". Then once you graduate you play the real thing.

Unless you are on 3DS then you stick with Lucina imo.

 

[Ashpash]

for one, no one is going to be able to space for **** with 3ds controls so marth won't even be worth anything till wii u

I don't see how spacing is impossible in the 3ds version nor do I see how spacing is related to control schemes. Spacing is literally your position on the stage in relation to the opponent, so you're saying that because of the "3ds controls" you can't position yourself on the screen? Wouldn't that make every character worth nothing, and the 3ds version unplayable as a whole?

 

[Sera Smash]

I don't see how spacing is impossible in the 3ds version nor do I see how spacing is related to control schemes. Spacing is literally your position on the stage in relation to the opponent, so you're saying that because of the "3ds controls" you can't do something as simple as position yourself on the screen? Wouldn't that make every character worth nothing, and the 3ds version unplayable as a whole?

..no? It simply means that due to the controls being less than optimal when compared to a GC controller more forgiving classes that don't require as precise positioning as Marth's tipper requires will be just that--more forgiving. The transition to the GC controller where more players will have arguably better control and positioning of their characters will theoretically reward Marth play more so than the 3DS will--at least that's my impression of his argument.

 

[Ashpash]

..no? It simply means that due to the controls being less than optimal when compared to a GC controller more forgiving classes that don't require as precise positioning as Marth's tipper requires will be just that--more forgiving. The transition to the GC controller where more players will have arguably better control and positioning of their characters will theoretically reward Marth play more so than the 3DS will--at least that's my impression of his argument.

Ok, thank you for gleaning more from his argument because I honestly couldn't... I understand your point as a lot of people share your opinion, but from playing the demo I don't understand how the 3ds controls affect the ability to space effectively.

Perhaps you and many others find the controls (more specifically, the control stick responsiveness or character movement speed) uncomfortable in which case it may hinder your ability to control EVERY character (not just Marth) as well as you might want, leading to frustrations trying to space effectively. If that's the case I feel sorry for you since I find the controls responsive, smooth, and just as capable as the GC controller (I'm a long time GC-controller-only user as well)

Perhaps it's the lack of notches on the 3ds control stick? In which case you might accidentally tap jump if you're angling the stick upwards while moving on a consistent basis, I'm not sure.

Spacing isn't exactly a technique that requires multiple precise inputs of buttons at once such as jump-cancelled throws in Smash 4, or waveshining in Melee. If it required those precise inputs, I could understand the 3ds' limitations would cause problems (positioning of the X, Y, A, and B buttons and the lack of C-stick could be argued as valid hindrances).

Spacing takes time to grasp and requires understanding of the range of all of your character's attacks, and is more of a general fighting game concept than a mechanic/technique.

So how does the control stick of the 3ds hinder your ability to position your character? Spacing requires only the control stick, and In my opinion, the control stick is the most similar to a GC controller, comparing the layout of the X, Y, A and B buttons on the 3ds.

You mentioned the controls are "less than optimal" which I find interesting, I really really want to discuss what you think makes them less than optimal, and what makes others think they are fine. This thread is specific to spacing though, so this isn't the place to discuss whether we feel controls are comfortable or not, UNLESS it's related directly to spacing.

 

[Zano]

the control stick doesn't hinder you, not having a c stick does.

Have fun retreating fairs and such with no cstick.

it's not really a discussion, it's a solid fact, less words is more.

 

[Ashpash]

the control stick doesn't hinder you, not having a c stick does.

Have fun retreating fairs and such with no cstick.

it's not really a discussion, it's a solid fact, less words is more.

You just inspired me to open my 3ds and try retreating forward airs with Link, and I've managed them to a certain degree.

Try SH or full jump + back on the control stick (to start your retreating hop), then instantly input Fair and as soon as the forward air begins, quickly return the control stick back, continuing your retreating momentum. The momentum might not be as great as using the C-Stick but, more things are possible than you might think if you just look at your options logically and make do with what you have.

I know it's more complicated than back on control stick + forward on C-Stick, but the techniques you want to pull off in Smash 4 are limited only by your passion for the game and how far you want to go with it.

 

[Foodies]

"The momentum might not be as great as using the C-Stick"

That's the argument. I doubt Zano was saying retreating aerials were impossible without the c-stick - rather without a c-stick retreating aerials are suboptimal. If you want to move one way, pointing the control stick in that direction the whole time will move you in that direction more than pointing the control stick in the opposite direction for a brief moment (to do the aerial) and then moving it back to the direction you want.

But the new 3DSes will have a c-stick from what I understand, so all this doesn't really matter. Woop.

 

[Ashpash]

"The momentum might not be as great as using the C-Stick"

That's the argument. I doubt Zano was saying retreating aerials were impossible without the c-stick - rather without a c-stick retreating aerials are suboptimal. If you want to move one way, pointing the control stick in that direction the whole time will move you in that direction more than pointing the control stick in the opposite direction for a brief moment (to do the aerial) and then moving it back to the direction you want.

But the new 3DSes will have a c-stick from what I understand, so all this doesn't really matter. Woop.

I agree with you to a point, I just hope that people slow down with the "_____ is unplayable/useless on 3ds version since _____ technique is now more difficult/unreliable" (or just blaming the "controls") which was Zano's initial argument.

Plus, if some techniques become suboptimal or obsolete in the 3ds version ( like you stated, only until the New 3ds is released anyways) you'll have to -- dare I say it -- play those characters the slightest bit different (spamming retreating fairs probably isn't the most effective way to play Marth in the first place) but yeah, I'm kinda too excited about getting the game in 2 days to stress about this, woop

 

[Zano]

you can use him all you want, no one is stopping you, but it's just a solid fact and frighteningly obvious that being able to space with a c stick will forever be greater than without, meaning he will be nowhere near as good considering how heavily reliant a character like marth is on that.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

I've said this before and I'll say it again...

Marth power lies solely on the tipper. The thing about that is you're just not gonna get a tipper every hit no matter how good at spacing you are. On average you'll get 1 tipper out of 3 hits and I'm being generous about that.

Lucina's better all round so it's only practical that she's the better character overall.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I feel that at peak meta they will be equal because both of them can end a stock at low percents due to fearsome edgeguarding so it wont even matter at that point.

 

[Kidney Thief]

For now Lucina is better, but when top players start getting good I have the impression Marth will be better unless one gets comboed more than the other of something like that which we haven't noticed yet

 

[Scala]

I've been playing a lot of marth and I feel like the tipper is pretty reasonable to hit consistantly. ftilt seems particularly generous, I think it's the way the animation moves. I don't see how lucina could possibly be better than marth, lucina doesn't get kills at 60-70% from tipper fsmash or shield breaker like marth does.

Their gimping abilities are pretty similar though so in the end marth will probably only be slightly better if the meta ends up revolving around gimping and not straight up killing. If it's about killing, he's significantly better

 

[Sera Smash]

I've been playing a lot of marth and I feel like the tipper is pretty reasonable to hit consistantly. ftilt seems particularly generous, I think it's the way the animation moves. I don't see how lucina could possibly be better than marth, lucina doesn't get kills at 60-70% from tipper fsmash or shield breaker like marth does.

Their gimping abilities are pretty similar though so in the end marth will probably only be slightly better if the meta ends up revolving around gimping and not straight up killing. If it's about killing, he's significantly better

After ~400 online matches this is my impression as well. I did about ~100ish on lucina and the rest were Marth.

 

[MitoRequiem]

I'm a character loyalist and I don't really like Lucina(as a character) So I pretty much decided to deal with no C-Stick and play Marth anyways and to be honest I've played about 100+ games with Marth and have tipped for days! No C-stick doesn't seem that bad. But I also haven't been pivoting(mainly cause I have no clue what it's suppose to look like and I probably need it explained to me lol Zero's video didn't really help me I need to see a Marth do it) This is my first Smash game where I'm constantly looking for info/tech so a lot of this stuff is completely foreign to me.

 

[Nasreth]

I seem to have a much higher winrate with Lucina than Marth, but that just might be my own inexperience talking. I'm up to an 84% winrate in For Glory now with her. She seems to rack up damage faster since you don't necessarily want to hit tippers when you're comboing. Whenever I play Marth against my friends the early-mid damage stage feels a lot weaker than Lucina because this.

I'll admit that a perfect tipper from Marth will finish someone at a slightly lower percent than a smash from Lucina, but with buffs to rolling that's become less and less likely in SSB4. I find most of my kills come from getting underneath people and smashing them as they approach or land on the stage, and in those cases it's often a scramble to get into position in time, let alone space out a tipper.

 

[Kidney Thief]

Marth was a great character for me, but the inability to deal with projectiles properly has made me go to Capfal instead. I think Marth and Lucina will be mid tiers in the long run and perhaps better than average due to having so many good characters, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

[Ashpash]

I've been trying to put my finger on how exactly I feel when playing Marth, but I think it has something to do with the landing lag on a lot of his aerials, and the lag on his ground attacks as well.

Playing Marth, then Ike, it actually feels as if Ike has less landing lag on many of his aerials, and they cover more space than Marth or Lucina's. Surprisingly, spacing isn't as much of an issue as ending lag is when I play Marth... It's hard to say if it really is a problem or if it's just my personal preference, but I've yet to figure out which attacks are most reliable for Marth.

 

[MitoRequiem]

I've been trying to put my finger on how exactly I feel when playing Marth, but I think it has something to do with the landing lag on a lot of his aerials, and the lag on his ground attacks as well.

Playing Marth, then Ike, it actually feels as if Ike has less landing lag on many of his aerials, and they cover more space than Marth or Lucina's. Surprisingly, spacing isn't as much of an issue as ending lag is when I play Marth... It's hard to say if it really is a problem or if it's just my personal preference, but I've yet to figure out which attacks are most reliable for Marth.

mmmm I haven't played Ike much I was actually gonna look for tech for all FE characters but decided to grind out my Marth/Rosalina/Pit/Pac-man. Umm maybe this is just in my head but I recommend using Side B in the air after doing an aerial it has less landing lag from what i've seen(and basically felt I'm not sure if it's true lol)