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Marth vs Kirby and Snake

M

MysteryTigerTeen

Guest
This is my Snake set:

#1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alDj1VOJ7m8&list=UURH8ejmw3-4fnuWac-UvqZQ&index=6&feature=plcp

#2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfnfYKgEayU&list=UURH8ejmw3-4fnuWac-UvqZQ&index=5&feature=plcp

#3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjwjdP5iyAE&list=UURH8ejmw3-4fnuWac-UvqZQ&index=4&feature=plcp
-------

Kirby TBA/uploading them

I would like advice on my marth and things I need to improve on. Some things I noticed is that....

- I need to space better
- be more patient on getting back on stage
- save my jumps


Thanks for reading and please try to help me out. Also a few nice remarks are appreciated too <3

Please give examples guys, instead of just saying what to do. What would be better? Some mix ups, etc.
 

Nike.

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
5,823
Location
SA-Town, Texas
I'll help with an actual critique later (it's late), but one thing I noticed:

Game1 @ 1:41. You did a SH DB cross up -> utilt (back end) to punish his shield grab. I've never thought to use utilt in that situation (DB cross up) since I'm conditioned to just grab every time. Def stealing that(:
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
10,184
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
This will sound harsh at points but hopefully it helps


The first like minute of the third game and all I see you doing is waiting for the Snake to mess up, applying 0 pressure to him. All you're doing is blocking and/or walking towards him + DB punish. Given the fact that he doesn't know how to camp at ALL with Snake you should be running a train on him by baiting his tilts/pressuring him such that he's forced to shield or get hit by your sword.

Then your second stock you take 2029409285 damage while offstge and trying to get back onstage because you can't stop trying to hit him from the ledge. Be patient. Try to see where he'll mess up/show a pattern and then punish.

You give up a lot of damage when juggling him due to overcommitment/poor understanding of Snake's ranges/not juggle trapping properly. You need to NOT jump super high unless you have a HARD read and instead stay lower to the ground, looking to see how he behaves and either punishing on reaction or conditioning him/observing him. IMO you should observe his landing patterns near the middle of his stock if you have a decent lead because he'll feel pressured to land safer due to your lead (usually).

You have a habit of recovering from the ledge with rising DB1 (should only be used as mixup and very sparingly).

Good patience @ 3:04

Your Bairs...stop trying to hit him with it as a prediction. Use it to bait a reaction out of him. he has to respect your sword, use that to your advantage. If he's low to the ground, extremely unadvisable to use esp if he isn't moving (how you got killed @ end of match)

Nice string near the end

You're using jab incorrectly. The opponent should feel that his movement or counteraction is restricted as a result of the jab. Don't throw it out as a conventional close quarters option
 

Luckay4Lyphe

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 8, 2009
Messages
3,915
Location
College Park, MD
Clowsui is right on a lot of things. When juggling Snake you commit to a full hop too often. Snake fast falls faster than Marth so you will miss a good punish if you full hop rather than shorthop of even just stay grounded. Best snake can do to land is b reversal or bair so hold shield and thats a free dsmash for the kill you needed game 3 his first stock.

Also bad idea to airdodge onto stage especially when you have rco lag ready to hit you. Steam got a free utilt kill because you did that. In general you should shield within ftilt range of Snake.

When you had him at 160+% start looking for other kill options like that utilt read was good. Dolphin slash can kill at high percent and it's very quick so he may not have DI'd it well enough. Practice using upb out of shield more often because it can save Marth a lot. Also work on your ground game, Marth has a great pivot grab and good follow ups from throws. You would do an fthrow then stay grounded and get another grab for a second fthrow which was good, do more of that stuff instead of the telegraphed fair approach all the time.

DB is a good punish, but isn't safe on shield most of the time so when people shield it it is a good idea to cancel it early sometimes because they are expecting a free punish when it's done.
 

C.J.

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 30, 2008
Messages
4,102
Location
Florida
Pressuring needs a lot of work. You sit and wait way too much. You need to apply pressure, safely, in order to force action.

Practice spacing for dtilt and resulting traps. I think you're getting punished more for using dtilt than not.

You overcommit about half the time on juggles. SHFF uair to bair ADs and then you can grab/utilt/usmash to punish the landing to reset the situation. The half of the time you don't overcommit you juggle pretty well though.

Know when to reset to neutral and when you're in a situation to apply pressure (1:50 G1 is a great example of needing to just walk away). Broll is a good option to reset to neutral in general btw- don't be afraid to go to neutral.

DB4D is bad, don't use it.

Your landing options need to be safer (bair into the ground gets you DA'd/ftilted a fair bit).

I like that you're not afraid to cross up with uair- you auto-pilot utilt after the crossup frequently though.

Counter nair more and don't overextend on ledge traps

Yay for CS =D

1:12 G2 I like that you recognized a jab lock situation, it's just too bad he was at too high of a % =(
You had a notable lead going into the second part of CS but you let yourself take so much unnecessary damage there. Grenades can't hurt you here since the statue stops them- make him come to you.

While I like crossups vs Snake (and especially DDD- everyone should do those more), shy away from them more at kill %s. They're very utilt-able (it's a word now!)

Speaking of utilt, when you want to get a kill, your utilts become amazingly telegraphed. Grab more.

Yeah, you try to do WAY too much with DB1. Instead of using it as a mix-up, you're using it as a
fundamental aspecct of your gameplay. As a result, you keep getting utilted for DB1 hitting shield sine the following aerial is all you ever do from it.

G2 stock 2 you did fthrow->fsmash, which I agree with here because of the slant. Make sure you know, and have down all the other fthrow options vs Snake (and everyone for that matter) @ 0%

Be careful of your jumps in general.

To *seemingly* contradict that last point, FH fair to zone out Snake should be used more as it forces him to show his preferred punishing option. Knowing that you can play around that/those option(s) when you SH.

You stale fsmash way too much. Ftilt and dtilt are amazing punishing moves as well
*Nike, come talk about your revelation about dsmash*

You whiff so many grabs and SB, be more careful with those two moves.

If you're in the air and Snake is just standing there, never just land in any of his ranges. It's better to pull back to the ledge and go from there than to take a guaranteed ftilt/utilt because you were going to whiff the obvious fair/DB

Use more of the basic ledge options

When you do use FH fairs, you tend to be using them only going forward; it's mostly a zoning option- pull back for safety.

I'm trying to be general, but G3, 3:40 was awful. Snake was VERY far away from you. You needed to get onto the stage w/ an aerial ASAP while you had the chance to get rid of RCO. Instead you stalled above the stage, still with RCO, with DB giving Snake ample time to punish the obvious aerial that was to come (again, due to RCO). This goes back to my earlier point of you using way too much DB1 stuff in your game. It's a mixup, not a fundamental. This is a great example that you have turned it into a fundamental as there was no reason to consciously choose to commit to that option here. That means that it was an autopiloted decision.

The counter at 1:53 G3 I actually really liked. He was riding momentum super hard so it was very reasonable to expect an ftilt or utilt to come out. You just did it a little bit too early- the option itself I like a lot though.
 
M

MysteryTigerTeen

Guest
@ Maharba the Mystic: o look the troll showed up, i have been expecting you. Surprised you aren't permaban by the crap you say to everyone :p

@everyone else: Thank you for the advice, but i would like examples please. For example a few of you said to pressure better. Tell me a few things on how I could, some mix ups, etc.
 

1PokeMastr

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
2,251
I'll give an example for a mix up, so you have a general idea for how it would work.
Using your "Sh Db1 -> Cross Up Uair -> U-Tilt" in the example so you can be familiar with it!

A mix up is when you pick a different option from what you used before, which makes it harder to read you.

If you approached with.. Sh DB1 -> Cross up Uair -> U-Tilt. If they block any part of this, they'll have a free punish. Let's say they punish after the U-Tilt, meaning they wait for it to hit their shield, to get the punish.

When you approach again, in the same manner, they'll wait for the U-Tilt for the same/ better punish.
So instead, you pick "Sh DB1 -> Cross up FF Air dodge -> Cross up pivot grab/ turn around grab".

This way, you keep them guessing on what you'll do after the Uair/ DB1 and when you land. It makes it harder for them to predict you.

The more you mix up, the longer you keep them guessing.


I hope my terrible example/ explanation helped!
 

MVD

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
3,236
Location
Miami, FL
whenever snake touches ur shield or jabs you, INSTANTLY use UP B, you need to utilize that attack a lot more, any stray hit from snake can lead to it, also when he nairs you, up B him. you are too patient and sometimes that is good, BUT against snake you have to keep moving, cant really stay still for that long cause that gives him time to set his **** up and make his wall. when you use side B almost always use the forward one to finish, the down one isnt the best unless you are at low percent and you are super close to them. you try too hard to do forward B stall to nair combos and that will get you punished a lot. you should also always up or forward throw against snake at least, juggle with up air while reading air dodges and you will be fine. you did a few counters that shouldnt be done, only use counter to like get rid of snakes down smash (Ryo does that and its pretty safe). work on recovering to the edge when you up B, he got a lot of free hits and or kills on ya cause you went a little too high. when snake is near the edge in shield just D tilt him off and it can score an easy kill or lots of damage. uhhhhhh, Ithink thats about it x.x
 

Steam

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Messages
6,322
Location
Hell, Colorado
wtffffff why does the sound cut offffffff

also snake tips would be appreciated if anyone cares to give them (other than the obvious stop using fair randomly)
 
M

MysteryTigerTeen

Guest
wtffffff why does the sound cut offffffff

also snake tips would be appreciated if anyone cares to give them (other than the obvious stop using fair randomly)
lol ask mvd XD

Sup steamsie and because you desynched kind sir :3
 

Seagull Joe

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
10,388
Location
Maryland
NNID
SeagullJoe
As I always tell you, you need to use more Up b OoS and aerials OoS. When :snake: does a full ftilt on block there is no reason that should not be punished. You use too much side b too, but I've always told you this Caitie.

:018:
 

Ayce God

RIP Nova 9
Joined
Oct 18, 2011
Messages
1,023
Location
Nicki Minaj's booty
how many people post videos for critique and no one helps them. caitie posts a few and everyone including Mvd himself helps out. vagina runs the world lol

caitie here are three vids for visual example on how to play against snake

Leon vs mr r
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M2GoBfjmHs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Leon vs mvd
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHZ8RAPqMs4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

ignore how Leon over commits alot I mean just look at the options he chooses. up b oos when to foot stool when to grab.

mike haze vs mr r
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMj68hpv8oQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

if you have very good spacing, pressure and follow up game snake mu will seem 70/30 to u

:phone:
 

MVD

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
3,236
Location
Miami, FL
how many people post videos for critique and no one helps them. caitie posts a few and everyone including Mvd himself helps out. vagina runs the world lol

caitie here are three vids for visual example on how to play against snake

Leon vs mr r
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M2GoBfjmHs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Leon vs mvd
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHZ8RAPqMs4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

ignore how Leon over commits alot I mean just look at the options he chooses. up b oos when to foot stool when to grab.

mike haze vs mr r
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMj68hpv8oQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

if you have very good spacing, pressure and follow up game snake mu will seem 70/30 to u

:phone:

I like how I am specially pointed out LOL she personally asked me for help, whenever anyone does I usually privately help them over FB, she wanted me to post it here cause many people are helping her

:phone:
 

C.J.

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 30, 2008
Messages
4,102
Location
Florida
how many people post videos for critique and no one helps them. caitie posts a few and everyone including Mvd himself helps out. vagina runs the world lol
I look at almost every video posted here- there are just a few that make my eyes bleed from the awful option choices that I can't force myself to watch them closely to give good input. If you think there's a vid that hasn't gotten the attention it deserves, and won't make me sad to watch, PM/VM me the link and I'll happily look it over.
 

Ayce God

RIP Nova 9
Joined
Oct 18, 2011
Messages
1,023
Location
Nicki Minaj's booty
What about me!?


:phone:
oh I didn't even see your reply over there, I think anytime a top player is willing to help out fellow smashers is a REALLY nice thing. especially u, I didn't think u were that nice for some reason =\

btw mvd, if your attending waba we should play. cool?

:phone:
 

MVD

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
3,236
Location
Miami, FL
oh I didn't even see your reply over there, I think anytime a top player is willing to help out fellow smashers is a REALLY nice thing. especially u, I didn't think u were that nice for some reason =\

btw mvd, if your attending waba we should play. cool?

:phone:
I'm actually really nice lol and for sure we should mm

:phone:
 

Seagull Joe

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
10,388
Location
Maryland
NNID
SeagullJoe
I posted cause I've played Caitie (And dated her for most of her career LOL) since she started the scene and facepalmed at her losing to Steam's :snake:...

If there is anyone who knows about THE THIRST that she has had through smashers it is me. I could make a list with listing the top thirsty at the top. It'd be funny.

:018:
 
M

MysteryTigerTeen

Guest
WTF guys?! Really lmao? Ask for advice, i get 3/4 of a page of it and than chatting.... 'facepalm'. I also asked mvd for advice, leon, mr.r and a few others. He was kind enough to do it here because I asked him too. Also Mvd is a really nice chill guy, you should get to know him :3
 

MVD

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
3,236
Location
Miami, FL
WTF guys?! Really lmao? Ask for advice, i get 3/4 of a page of it and than chatting.... 'facepalm'. I also asked mvd for advice, leon, mr.r and a few others. He was kind enough to do it here because I asked him too. Also Mvd is a really nice chill guy, you should get to know him :3
Yay I'm a good person :) <3

:phone:
 

Steam

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Messages
6,322
Location
Hell, Colorado
but this steam guy, he's a sub-par human being at best.

@tiger- I uploaded the rest of the vids so you can put up the rest of the ones you want critiqued. they're on my channel.
 

Leon94

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 28, 2010
Messages
304
Location
france
I like how I am specially pointed out LOL she personally asked me for help, whenever anyone does I usually privately help them over FB, she wanted me to post it here cause many people are helping her

:phone:
My first opinion about you was very bad, but I was wrong
 
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