Marth Social Thread

[Deleted member]

the main problem with marth is that he sucks on non-neutral stages for a variety of reasons, so you never have the luxury to pick stages based on preference. you almost always have to pick the one that offers the most strategic advantage to not lose out hardcore on margins. i think marth is way overrated by most of the players in this game because they only do free play on neutrals, among many others reasons.

tbh i think marth's recovery is more than fine.

 

[Shaya]

i think marth is way overrated by most of the players in this game

I'll happily cherry pick your comments and highlight thissssssssssss.

 

[CyberZixx]

the main problem with marth is that he sucks on non-neutral stages for a variety of reasons, so you never have the luxury to pick stages based on preference. you almost always have to pick the one that offers the most strategic advantage to not lose out hardcore on margins. i think marth is way overrated by most of the players in this game because they only do free play on neutrals, among many others reasons.

tbh i think marth's recovery is more than fine.

I think there is some truth to the bolded part. For a while locally we were playing primalty on neutrals and I thought "oh, Marth ain`t that bad." Now that we play with all the stages on random and get way less neutrals I am like "oh, Marth sucks."

 

[Juushichi]

But Umbreon. Neutrals are the only stages that matter.

We have to keep falco and marth relevant somehow.

 

[Deleted member]

smart players that practice tournament sets instead of doing random free play already know that marth is mid tier. preaching + choir.

 

[Shaya]

Do you still think Marth should stay a mid tier? Or does he deserve to have the rest of his moveset rounded-off like every Brawl character / buffed melee returnee?

 

[SpiderMad]

The weird thing with clone characters is I feel they usually have to match each other's coolness (or reduce the coolness of the other). After Lucas got JC for his shine Ness eventually got it. With Roy in the game, his d-smash was made faster, a cooler and flippable side-b, and a lot more.
Marth probably won't get much though. I mentioned before besides Up-smash/D-smash changes a switchable Neutral-B between it's Brawl/Melee incarnation. He did since 1.0 though have his dair have reduced landing lag from melee by 2 frames (Roy either has 2 frames or more removed from his dair as well), I'm happy about that.

I also feel like Marth possibly gained more from RAR than other Melee characters. His RAR WD to grab the ledge is great. I mean he had other ways to grab it kind of quickly already (using Bair) but so did some others like Turnaround Waveshine/Laser and Sheik's needles. I feel a lot more lost with him to grab the ledge quickly without RAR in Melee than with others.

Also recorded this today http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAw6bTOUyXg

 

[Deleted member]

Do you still think Marth should stay a mid tier? Or does he deserve to have the rest of his moveset rounded-off like every Brawl character / buffed melee returnee?

i absolutely think that marth should never be changed again. along with at least half the cast.

tiers are only a measure of relative goodness. you actually want most of your characters to be mid-tier. there's nothing wrong with marth being of mediocre relative goodness.

 

[GHNeko]

So pretty much.

Marth is mr. ordinary guy.

 

[Oro?!]

He feels like it with all of the shiny bells and whistles that get thrown around at will in PM. Same with Sheik.

 

[GHNeko]

Honestly, I agree with Umbreon when it comes to shiek, but here is not the time or the place. :V

It's funny that the defining features of marth are luke warm in comparison to the case.

 

[CyberZixx]

That is one thing I love about Marth though. He is Mr. Fundamentals more so than Mr. Ordinary guy. Marth has nothing you could call a gimmick just fat sword, long arms and speed.

 

[GHNeko]

And a grab range of psychic proportions.

 

[CyberZixx]

That is what I meant by long arms. I love Marth's grab range. It makes some people salty.

 

[GHNeko]

Have you seen his brawl turnaround grab? It's just as crazy if not more crazy.

 

[CyberZixx]

I actually don't know brawl Marth all that well despite playing him casually for years before getting competitively into melee/PM Marth.

 

[himemiya]

whats there to know? he has a dagger instead of a sword.

 

[UMR | donmk]

That is one thing I love about Marth though. He is Mr. Fundamentals more so than Mr. Ordinary guy. Marth has nothing you could call a gimmick just fat sword, long arms and speed.

This. I love having a character that doesn't rely on tricks or gimmicks, but solely your skill as a player. Although that being said, my skill level is woefully low, so I'm not sure how much that actually helps me... But it is one way to get good at the basic elements of the game.

There is nothing wrong with Marth remaining mid-tier on the assumption that PM achieves its goal of making every character viable. I don't want brawl 'mid tiers' who you basically never ever see competitively. If Marth isn't going to change much, then this gets more difficult, but I'm sure the PMBR wizards will be able to do it.

As for Brawl Marth, the only thing I miss was his amazing side-b. I'm not saying it should be implemented into PM, and if given the choice, I'd choose having an actual sword over the side b every time.

 

[CyberZixx]

How much shorter is Marth's sword in brawl? I know his grab range feel like it was halfed but I though the sword was only marginally shorter but now there are two comments on it's range.

 

[GHNeko]

It's a bit shorter, but i think it mostly has to do with the animations not giving him the same coverage as well.

 

[UMR | donmk]

The real issue was the combination of slightly shorter sword and of movement options being taken away (e.g. dash dance, wavedash). When you combine these, it means that not only was your 'optimum space' slightly closer than before, but you were always slower to react if the opponent got in your range. This meant that you had two options: stay a bit further back, meaning that if the opponent slips up, you cant punish as easily, or keep your opponent at 'optimal space' and hope that you don't mess up at all, because you had no defensive movement options (other than retreating fair).

That, and if you came in from melee, and you used melee spacing, you'd just whiff everything, so it took some time (at least for me) to remember where you actually had to be.

 

[GHNeko]

ugh

marth melee movement

it's like a goal that i cant seem to reach no matter what

i'm now just getting the hang of WD OOS with a single button lol.


speaking of wavedashing and movement options


i still have no clue how to properly recover from the ledge. any tips guys?

 

[shadow0x0cloud]

Waveland with invincibility
Fair - regrab ledge. safe from most OOS options. If you hitconfirm, go on stage, if it misses try something else
Yolo counter
Ledge jump
Ledge Roll
Ledge Attack
Double jump - Airdodge
Yolo SideB
F*ck the ledge and Up-B on the platform on Smashville
Dj Nair

 

[CyberZixx]

ugh

marth melee movement

it's like a goal that i cant seem to reach no matter what

i'm now just getting the hang of WD OOS with a single button lol.


speaking of wavedashing and movement options


i still have no clue how to properly recover from the ledge. any tips guys?

Marth's movement is a big part of what makes him so fun and the cornerstone of his neutral game. I WD OOS with the same button and it is doable. From the ledge with Marth he can have issues with that. I like stall the ledge a bit and go for mixing up the opponent and making them over commit so I can roll behind them, or WD onto the ledge. Aerials can work but it is super spacing dependent as close up they can be sheild punished and far away they can be baited and punished. Another decent option is standing up from the ledge at sub 100% as it is hard to punish.

 

[GHNeko]

yeah i dont know what type of marth style im going for.

i used to play a grab centric one that relied on a lot of tech chases, but now im going for the more play fly swatting style.

my main issue is that i cant kill reliably tho.

 

[CyberZixx]

That is an issue for Marth in PM in general. In melee he can either gimp outright our keep them from reliably coming back to the stage long enough to secure a kill. Due to the nature of many of the recoverss in PM he has trouble with both of those and thus can't keep people off stage as well. Thankfully for Marth character overall are a better weight for combing so he can get more dair kills which are a savior.

 

[GHNeko]

Dair in general is a great move now.

The reduced landing lag is super good and falco-esque at times.

Also RARing is very useful and practical for him.

But it's another step in the whole movement thing I need to master.

 

[BTmoney]

dair is still nonsensically unsafe

edit:
but better

 

[GHNeko]

BUt it feels sooo good.

 

[Oro?!]

Marth only has 2 frames of vulnerability on his under 100% ledge getup

 

[GHNeko]

Getup attack or just regular getup?

 

[CyberZixx]

Regular get up. As in push left or right on the stick. I don't recommend ever using get up attack at the ledge.

 

[GHNeko]

You know. I've had the hardest time figuring out the correct scenarios to do regular get ups.

 

[Oro?!]

Idk but most of Marth's get back from the ledge options are complete butt. Same as melee.

 

[DMG]

With the buffs to ledge jumps, I find that to be a pretty good option. You can cancel it close to the ground and waveland, throw out a very quick Fair/counter (actually not sure if you can cancel/act that quick with B moves), or rise on up. Like anything, it can get predictable but I think it's def like top 2 choice for him

 

[UMR | donmk]

I'm not sure if this has been covered, but in PM characters basically have two ways to waveland on stage. The first is the traditional drop down, double jump waveland. The second is when jumping from the ledge (by hitting up or jump) you can cancel it as soon as you leave the edge with an airdoge, allowing you to waveland on stage. Each of these has its advantages and disadvantages. The traditional method is faster, but if you screw it up, you die and also if you mismanage your ledge invincibility, you can be hit during the double jump and get sent away without a jump. The new method allows you to retain your double jump, but is significantly slower than the traditional method, especially when your over 100%.

But in general, Marth's ledge options are terrible, so I always just try something different each time and force the opponent to react to what I'm doing. Double jump fair can work, but I find it often leads to you having to regrab the ledge, which puts you right back where you started, although every now an then you can get back with it.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

did they really have to change his shieldbreaker back to melee's? it not like it was super important or even highly used because he already had f-smash, which worked just as well if not better in most situations and had the same animation. im not sure if brawls shieldbreaker was better or worse but damn are people (melee vets) that allergic and terrified of change? or does it simply just come down to... bcuz MELEE

 

[DMG]

The shield breaker changes are fine. Don't sweat it bro-jo

 

[GHNeko]

did they really have to change his shieldbreaker back to melee's? it not like it was super important or even highly used because he already had f-smash, which worked just as well if not better in most situations and had the same animation. im not sure if brawls shieldbreaker was better or worse but damn are people (melee vets) that allergic and terrified of change? or does it simply just come down to... bcuz MELEE

Melee Shieldbreaker has better coverage over Brawl's despite Brawl's having better reach.

It's essentially an Fsmash in the air, which Brawl shieldbreaker can't come very close to competing against.

 

[SpiderMad]

It goes: Having both somehow with some input command to pick > Melee's > Brawl's