Marth Social Thread

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*feels guilty of converting to MK*
As justification, I wasn't switching for tier reasons. And still I play lots of Marth.

But Marth honestly doesn't need changes, but they wouldn't make him broken either. He is between 20 and 25 and I think it would make sense to balance around the rank 15 (so nerf whats above, buff whats beyond) for many reasons. Very slight buffs might be good for balancing as result. I'm fine with Marth as he is, though.

Giving him a bigger tipper window isn't a good change though, it isn't that hard to tipper and it would take away from his uniqueness. I also wouldn't like to see him get better KO options because I like the meta evolving from it and the game of playing around one weakness. Imitating Roy somehow would also be somehow bad.

Personally I would like to see a possibility to choose between Melee shield breaker and Brawl shield breaker (best would be pressing attack + special for the Brawl one), which would be a nice extra, and the tipper jab as it is in Super Smash Flash 2 v0.9b (which would help Marth indeed because tipper jab would setup for combos and it is faster than aerials and has more range than grab) which has a higher base knockback and a higher knockback angle.
 

Shaya

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i agree with the comparison of moving from marth to mk but not sheik to pit. mk is almost certainly a better marth for a bunch of reasons but sheik and pit have very little in common aside from simply being great characters.
I think both have the easy-mode style of comboing. Single hits that pop them right up in front of you, with similar frame data/range (except pit's is disjoints) on tilts, dash attack. He has a better down throw than Sheik. I think the main differences between the two would just be needles, while Pit not having the weakness of being crouch cancelled, chain grabbing/ridiculous down throw, a fantastic recovery, a more versatile projectile (but not necessarily a better one in the situations Sheik uses them), Marth/Sheik range+ with disjoints, a better dash dance, a better wave dash, more out of shield options. I think towards their highest level, they differentiate enough, but I still maintain that Pit is an easy pick up for Sheik players who don't want to be changing how they play that drastically.
 
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I love back throw near the ledge to dair. It works if the opponent DIs inward. And it feels soooooooo good. Probably already known, but I just wanted to put it here so others can have this feeling of pwnage.
I've actually already discovered it. Doesn't quite feel as good as landing a Ken combo. Bowser is a good tool to practice it with. He's pure combo food for Marth. :p
 

Umbreon

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i didn't know about bthrow to dair. what chats and % range are we talking? getting bad DI is easy with good frame traps so hopefully its not too narrow.

@ Shaya Shaya - sheik has a MUCH better WD than pit, better shield options, andtheir projectiles are both excellent but have totally different utility so it's hard to fairly compare them. sheik also has crouch which adds a whole new dimension to her neutral game. frankly i don't think sheik and pit have very much in common at all but then i'm playing sheik at tippy top level so i see a lot of differentiation in the application. sheik also has total edge control which really can't be overstated. unfortunately i don't know too much about pit's CP options so i can't get into that aspect of comparison much.

for everyone saying that marth isn't that good- i agree with you, for now. it's quite apparent that recoveries, and perhaps the cast as a whole, is getting the nerfbat pretty soon. i have no reason to think that marth will be changed at any way, and i expect him to get quite a bit better with one of his major issues resolved. i wouldn't be too anxious to switch characters yet and i think hard labwork with the character will pay in spades for the next version. but for right now, yeah he's not that good. remember, it's just a demo.
 

shairn

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Bthrow dair works if they DI inwards and don't jump before you get there with dair. The hitstun on that throw is very low, so it's unlikely to work against a good opponent. Maybe against the pseudo fast-fallers? I'm not sure.
 

Charby

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if they DI in you can combo but it's a gimmick it works well against fall faller or even roy or falcon , it's better to follow with ken combo or tippered Fsmash tho, if you want to go for a fast spike just go fthrow dair , if you can suprise your opponent with the grab he won't have time to DI
 
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Back-throw->dair is nice if you f-throw them often enough in these situations because of the DI trap properties of the situation. Afaik there is no DI avoiding both bthrow->dair and f-throw->f-smash and both can be deadly.
 

Umbreon

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can anyone confirm that bthrow dair is a legit combo? i would but i'm on vacation. if its a real thing, pivot grabs just got a good bit better.
 

shairn

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Bthrow dair never worked for me whenever I tried it unless they jumped into the dair or outright let me do it.
 

DMG

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I've never seen Bthrow to Dair true combo. My intuitive guess is that it could only work on characters like MK/Diddy/Lucas and possibly spacies at higher %'s. My guess is that it's something around 40-80% that it could work on them? I rarely try for that option, although I have gotten regrabs on characters near that weight/FF status after Bthrow

Is there any setting to get CPU's to DI a certain way, or at least mix up DI a lot? I know the different cpu levels can mean different things for DI and SDI. I may fool around with that if possible
 
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Bringing this back from the dead (got the OK from a mod).

Been grinding out Marth since june this year. As a player I've generally been in that area between the good players and the top players. I'll generally steamroll through pools except against the 1st seed, then I'll get bopped by the top players and have matches that go either way with the good players. What's always kept me there I think is after my initial run of maining Ganon (which I did for 5-6 months), I never mained a character for longer than a month, going through phases of different characters. I never developed adaptation skills and I never developed the abilities you can only get with a character by maining them for so long (except Ganon, which is why I still keep him as a specific CP).

I decided on Marth as a main for many many reasons, but the big ones are: I don't see him fundamentally losing any MUs (so I can avoid CP wars), he can retreat and play heavy footsies due to his raw movement speed, he can approach when he spots a weakness in his opponent's movement because of his speed and range, his meta fundamentally is solved so I don't have to figure out how to play him at a high level (that would take a while, all I have to do is figure out how to tune his kit towards PM MUs), and his power level rises from the PM mechanics so I do have room to invent my own stuff too, esp with the consistent access to empty pivot tech.

It's been a rough road, but I'm showing some real promise now. At PM Showdown which was in Xanadu, I had strong 1-2 sets vs Baconpancakes and Hyperflame in bracket, and I have reason to believe that if I wasn't so distracted by the crowd (that was my first time dealing with a large crowd cheering against me), I would've beaten Bacon. I'll be ready next time. At Smash at the Valley 2 this past weekend, I beat The Moon's Fox in pools (but I did go Ganon on warioland game 3 ftw), and solidly 2-0'd a Fox and a needle campy Sheik in bracket before getting knocked out by a movement spamming Sonic. I had to play Sora in winners and I almost won the game 1 Marth ditto, but he clutched it. I 3 stocked him on my CP of Ganon on warioware. He went to SV and I stayed Ganon, really should've done the runback in the ditto. My logic was that I hate using Marth on SV, but I didn't realize that Sora was also Marth on SV so it shouldn't have mattered.

I seem to be pretty covered at my current skill level for the melee MUs, I just gotta grind out a couple weird PM MUs (Sonic, Zard, Squirtle, Mario, and a couple more I can't think of atm) and then I can just worry about fundamentals. The gap between me and our resident Marth, Sora, is definitely closing and I can't wait to reach his level so I can really start targeting top players from other regions and make Marth look cool.

I'll post updates and thoughts as I explore this character. I'm really preparing for the big tournies in Nov/Dec (We Tech Those, Gameacon, Snowstorm) and I'm hoping to give Marth a scary showing. Especially with empty pivots, they're def a huge boost to his power level. They are what allowed me to close the gap between myself and The Moon and I know they're going to be a huge part of Marth's optimization in this game. I do pivots with the tap jump off method. I never use tap jump except for up B OoS, but that can be circumvented with using C stick up to jump OoS.

My general plan for improvement has been: labbing to isolate specific stuff. Weeklies for trying things out, so I don't actively try to go for the W, I'll take an L in the process of trying things out for better long term results. Bigger tournies like monthlies, regionals, and nationals for putting everything together and going for the W. Seems to be good so far so I'm sticking with it for now.
 
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I got 2nd at a tournament on sunday altho it was pretty small (16 entrants). In the process I did get my revenge on a MK main who beat me the last time we faced off in bracket, which was at a smashing grounds a bunch of weeks ago. So that was cool. I was a bo5 set and it went 3-2. The Metaknight MU seems so uphill at first because MK is pretty fast, and he gets such easy conversions off grabs and non tipper dtilts. But his tipper dtilt is actually pretty weak and his grab range is atrocious, so as long as you play it like a Marth ditto except you can pressure his shield fairly safely and you don't have to worry about getting grabbed in neutral (unless you screw up bad or he calls you out successfully on your movement habits), you can win. I'll write MU thoughts in the MU thread later.

I had to play a Zelda twice. I won both times but I ended up CPing as Ganondorf because Dorf's punish game is so much easier and straightforward to execute than Marth's. I just have to work on punishing characters that are descending and once I have that down I should be good for that MU. In WFs and GFs I had to play our best Peach player in New England (Mafia). He went Falcon game 1 of WFs which I won, and then he played Peach for the rest of the games. Never took a game off his Peach but I was able to keep the games fairly close. Gotta grind out the Peach MU and move better, then I'll be ready to take sets off him.

We had a monthly at Smashing Grounds last Saturday and I got bopped by a Mario in winners and lost game 3 vs a Dedede. Ended up getting 9th out of 41 entrants. The Mario knows his punishes and is able to generally take my stock after winning neutral just a couple times, so I have almost no room for error. Need to deal with his fireball camping better, punish his descents better, and edgeguard him better. Vs Dedede, I was consistently baiting out and punishing the whiffed ftilts, as well as using run in shield + shield di forward on reaction to get through waddle dees. However game 3 I got a bit nervous and fell into inhale traps a lot, got caught out of the air a lot when I jumped, and didn't space well so I got shield grabbed. Gotta fix those habits and I'll be ready to handle DDD.
 
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Pretty much all my Marth videos are here.
https://www.youtube.com/user/GameUndergroundStore/search?query=billz

I traveled to a tourney in long island a bunch of weekends ago and have a Marth stream match here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzZQFin0rUc

For my videos on the gameundergroundstore channel, focus on the videos within the last two months. My Marth was pretty bad and only started breaking through recently. There's still a lot of work I have to do.

I'm seeded 2nd in my pool at We Tech Those. Sora's going as well. We're both hoping to make Marth look really good. I have a Ganon secondary but I definitely won't be using him vs Jaden and I probably won't use him vs Jewchainz.

Something I did was watch my recent videos and log down my bad habits. Been labbing and just thinking about how I'm going to replace those habits. Hope it pays off at We Tech Those. I played Malachi in bracket in NY a couple weekends ago who's the same tier as Jaden and was keeping up. I'm gunning for the 1st seed upset but I won't be mad at myself or anything if I don't get it.
 
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GHNeko

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One way I think is useful for breaking habit is putting yourself in situations where your habit comes out and you slow down your play and think through the steps of what you should do instead of what you shouldnt do.

At least that's what I do and it helps me out.

Got any tips Umbreon Umbreon ?
 

Umbreon

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One way I think is useful for breaking habit is putting yourself in situations where your habit comes out and you slow down your play and think through the steps of what you should do instead of what you shouldnt do.

At least that's what I do and it helps me out.

Got any tips Umbreon Umbreon ?
put the game down for a week. habits are reinforced by repetition.
 

Umbreon

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What about those old habits that die hard? I know I've put the game down for like a month and still come back with some bad habits in tact.
record the behavior to see what it looks like and play to do something else in that situation. it takes a lot longer though
 
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Me and Sora actually did pretty bad this weekend relative to expectations. I got 3rd seed out of pools and went 0-2 in bracket. Sora also got 3rd seed and only won a few matches at most in bracket, but only in losers.

This was the first time in a long time I traveled, played lots of Marth, and wasn't enjoying myself much. I couldn't effectively close stocks off of grabs and any other stray hits. My combos weren't fluid, my tech chasing felt like I was playing smash for the first time. I dropped the vast majority of my edge guards, which really was a downer because I got my opponents off stage soooo many times. I had fun playing neutral as usual, but doing combos and punishes actually felt quite annoying.

Maybe I'll boot up 20XX melee and lab combos/tech chases. Edgeguarding is hard to practice, so maybe I'll just study that like I'm in school or something.
 
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