Marth Needs More Kill Potential

[KABO0S]

Marth is just a very precise character. You have to know him and your opponent very well. That's why I like him. Playing Marth is very similar to fencing, you learn your opponent and read them to best gain the advantage. I'm not going to go all "LOL, U SUK. LEARN A DIFF CHARACTER SKRUB" on you, but learn how to punish people better and take advantage of Marth's favorable positions more often.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Marth is just a very precise character. You have to know him and your opponent very well. That's why I like him. Playing Marth is very similar to fencing, you learn your opponent and read them to best gain the advantage. I'm not going to go all "LOL, U SUK. LEARN A DIFF CHARACTER SKRUB" on you, but learn how to punish people better and take advantage of Marth's favorable positions more often.

Its generally agreed that Marth is a whole lot worse than he was in Melee. A top 4 character in Melee, top 5 in Brawl, considered mid tier in PM. Explain that to me. We have pro marths too. But its said over and over again and again, Marth needs kill power/he struggles to get KOs/KOing is a real problem for this character. IDK why its such a big problem to ask the PMBR to make his back air a KO move like it was in Brawl.

 

[Deleted member]

because the PMBR is pretty good about not taking bad advice. if you don't think marth's bair is already a kill move, you're playing him wrong.

 

[victinivcreate1]

because the PMBR is pretty good about not taking bad advice. if you don't think marth's bair is already a kill move, you're playing him wrong.

So you're saying that back air in PM is just as strong if not stronger than back air in Brawl? Bair can not flat out kill at 130 raw in PM. It can in brawl. Adding one one KO move will not break Marth, especially when you have characters like Mario, Zelda, Pit and Mewtwo, who are more inherently broken.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ victinivcreate1
Marth has other strengths and is in no way comparable to Mario, Zelda, Pit and Mewtwo who are played in a completely different way. Marth doesn't need more kill power.

What @Umbreon is saying is that you play it out wrong by not controlling centerstage or using your edgeguarding abilities and then placing the bair (or a sweetspot nair which would also work) when you are definitely closer to the blast zones. One could say it is your fault if you didn't push your opponent away from centerstage enough, Marth has definitely the ability to do it, by his throws, his dashdancing game, aerials and down-tilt

 

[Deleted member]

So you're saying that back air in PM is just as strong if not stronger than back air in Brawl? Bair can not flat out kill at 130 raw in PM. It can in brawl. Adding one one KO move will not break Marth, especially when you have characters like Mario, Zelda, Pit and Mewtwo, who are more inherently broken.

You're so far off that you can't even address the issue properly. Most characters in smash find positional advantage, use it to hit the opponent and rack up damage, and then kill them. Marth can play this way but it' not his ideal. Marth doesn't care about combos or kill moves even though he's fantastic at both. All Marth has to do is get position and hold it until the opponent dies.

 

[Loli Bacon]

You're so far off that you can't even address the issue properly. Most characters in smash find positional advantage, use it to hit the opponent and rack up damage, and then kill them. Marth can play this way but it' not his ideal. Marth doesn't care about combos or kill moves even though he's fantastic at both. All Marth has to do is get position and hold it until the opponent dies.

Exactly this. I don't understand why you need more kill moves when it is exceedingly difficult for any character to even touch you if you're playing him properly. Not to mention his insane edgeguarding capabilities.

 

[victinivcreate1]

You're so far off that you can't even address the issue properly. Most characters in smash find positional advantage, use it to hit the opponent and rack up damage, and then kill them. Marth can play this way but it' not his ideal. Marth doesn't care about combos or kill moves even though he's fantastic at both. All Marth has to do is get position and hold it until the opponent dies.

This mentality seems that it would work better in Brawl than in PM, a game where aggression is rewarded. There's a reason why Marth is top 4 in Melee, and its not because of campiness.

 

[Deleted member]

if you think brawl is aggressive then i can't help you

 

[victinivcreate1]

if you think brawl is aggressive then i can't help you

Thats the point. Positional advantage works better in a game like Brawl. In a faster game, positional advantage doesn't matter AS MUCH (keywords AS MUCH) considering characters can move much quicker and can just break through disadvantages with just raw speed.

Either way, point is, adding back air as a KO move is not a problem. IDK why you're so against it. If you think Marth is top tier in this game, then I can't help you.

 

[Deleted member]

pretty sure i'm the one who originally asserted marth as mid tier thanks

also position is way more important in pm and melee than it is in brawl not close

 

[victinivcreate1]

pretty sure i'm the one who originally asserted marth as mid tier thanks

also position is way more important in pm and melee than it is in brawl not close

Fine.

The position that Marth most frequently gets tipper bairs is when the opponent gets knocked high and is trying to recover from a high point.

Tell me how this move is a KO move exactly? Considering the move is not that powerful, and Marth can't go super far from the stage without dying by self destruct.

 

[Deleted member]

Fine.

The position that Marth most frequently gets tipper bairs is when the opponent gets knocked high and is trying to recover from a high point.

Tell me how this move is a KO move exactly? Considering the move is not that powerful, and Marth can't go super far from the stage without dying by self destruct.

you hit them with it and then they don't make it back and it kills them. i kill with marth bair at 50% all the time.

 

[Charby]

Wait ? Marth can edgeguard? And wih bair???
*mindblown*

 

[Deleted member]

In my opinion, if they aren't going to give him a decent counter move that can kill (like roy or ike), then his counter move should send opponents directly up so you can get a free attack for successfully getting it, instead of how it currently sends them in a random direction.

 

[BIGSmeez]

Tippers, tippers, tippers... I don't seem to have that hard of a time killing with marth as long as I keep my spacing right, L cancels consistent to make sure my movement speed isn't slow and I can continue you to combo.. Then a well spaced fsmash or a nice nair at higher percent.

 

[victinivcreate1]

you hit them with it and then they don't make it back and it kills them. i kill with marth bair at 50% all the time.

Are you actually killing them with bair? Or are you comboing bair into something like dair? Now if you combo bair into dair, I'll ne quiet then, as I do that a lot actually.

 

[Deleted member]

it doesn't matter as long as they die. bair them 13 times, bair and take the edge, bair into low up b. **** doesnt matter as long as they dont make it back. bair makes this happen just like the rest of marths move set.

marth does not care about damage. stop trying to play falco.

 

[victinivcreate1]

it doesn't matter as long as they die. bair them 13 times, bair and take the edge, bair into low up b. **** doesnt matter as long as they dont make it back. bair makes this happen just like the rest of marths move set.

marth does not care about damage. stop trying to play falco.

Oh ok. Gotcha. Idk why I didn't understand before lol.

 

[Loli Bacon]

In my opinion, if they aren't going to give him a decent counter move that can kill (like roy or ike), then his counter move should send opponents directly up so you can get a free attack for successfully getting it, instead of how it currently sends them in a random direction.

Let's talk about how Marth needs more options.

 

[Mr.Random]

In Brawl than in PM, a game where aggression is rewarded.

LOLOLOL

 

[Zx2963]

I think people don't realize how important in PM it is to have more then one main. One character can't beat everyone, and while Marth has advantageous matchups, since their are 41 characters he has many more disadvantageous matchups. Everyone's buffed recovery make him less of an easier character then he used to be. You won't see braindead Fsmashes working like it did in Melee, and in thus game it's easier to see how much skill you have with your character according to how you adapt to the variety of matchups.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I think people don't realize how important in PM it is to have more then one main. One character can't beat everyone, and while Marth has advantageous matchups, since their are 41 characters he has many more disadvantageous matchups. Everyone's buffed recovery make him less of an easier character then he used to be. You won't see braindead Fsmashes working like it did in Melee, and in thus game it's easier to see how much skill you have with your character according to how you adapt to the variety of matchups.

You can come out with one main, especially since you have 3 bans. Marth also has 40-60 at worst. I also only multimain because I enjoy playing different characters, not because I have to.

 

[Zinth]

I used to think that Marth was kind of underpowered in this game, but I eventually came to the realization that the issue wasn't Marth's balance but rather the balance of the current top-tier characters.

Marth is fine; you just have to know your kill options/setups and be creative. For instance, pretty much any time you can land a grab, you can land an up-B. So at higher percents, you can land up-B kills in place of grabs (taking risk into account).

It's also important to understand the various weak hitboxes on Marth's moves (e.g, the reverse-fair hitbox, the reverse-bair hitbox, etc); those hitboxes can allow you to combo into kill moves (or set up for tipper tech-chases on platforms) at higher percents where your normal combo game stops working.

You also really want to be good at fthrow -> pivot f-smash; that murders characters who have annoying recoveries like Ivysaur and Lucas. And it's even easier to do in PM than it is in Melee!

Finally, don't underestimate the killing power of tipper f-tilt and up-tilt.

 

[666blaziken]

There's a difference between complaining and discussing. What this thread is is a way for us to discuss certain aspects of P:M Marth's game. So I don't see why it's wrong to do so. Complainers just complain. What I am doing is explaining something that I believe needs to be changed, and giving ideas for ways they could go about changing it. If you don't agree, by all means post your opinion, but don't just assume that the player isn't skilled or knowledgeable simply because they see something differently from you.

I still haven't seen any real examples of how to edgeguard Sonic. But ya know, maybe he is the extreme.

Try telling me how to edgeguard R.O.B., Dedede, Zelda, and Lucario.

ROB is easy to edgeguard. Just use tipper bair until he runs out of juice. DEDEDE no longer has a lot of armor on his up b, so just dair if he is below you. If he is above you, wait for him to land, then shield and f smash. Zelda has a weakness in that if she is too close to the stage while offstage, attack her with the ken combo or neutral b since her start up time is long. I haven't tried lucario, but I think his up b works like fox in that you can dair or dtilt him.