Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Am I the only one that's glad that I need to actually think to win matches instead of walking to the ledge and seeing how fast I can mash the C-stick
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Marth Needs More Kill Potential
- Thread starter Bukowski On Ice
- Start date
You could win with that in melee? Since if so I've been playing the game wrong for years.
Being at the ledge is a generally disadvantageous position, and the reason it works against a lot of people is a severe lack of patience that get them to put themselves in even worse situations than you're already in. When that's a fox fighting a marth, it means he gets his ass gimped. Which he deserves. When it's a -insert pm character with peach tier recovery here- vs a marth, he probably doesn't get gimped. So even against a spacie, the only time you get to turn your brain off and 'mash the c-stick' (which probably isn't going to work for you anyway) was if they did something stupid first. Difference is, characters with really good recoveries get to do something stupid and get off with a slap on the wrist.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
I exaggerate. But the point I'm trying to make here is that PM has been heavily focused on making the game much more skill based. Low entry barrier, high skill ceiling, more so than Melee probably taking all the match-ups and brawltech into account. If Marth needs to weigh his options at the ledge more carefully it's 100% fine by me. It's not quite as satisfying D-Tilting a Yoshi as it is Dairing a Peach, after all.
The skill based focus should go both ways. It takes relatively little skill for ROB to get back to the stage safely. Ditto most tether recoveries–except when they simply can't get back because of their offstage positioning, which is a problem in its own right
Mr. Fox
AKA Shiro
Tipper Uair is what I said. Not Sourspot Uair. If you space correctly, you can juggle just as well.
D
Deleted member
Guest
i usually kill people faster with marth than i do fox or falco at the edge. i think you're just playing the character wrong.
not everyone gets to be a top tier. marth is probably mid-tier in this game, and he's fine that way. ideally, every character is mid-tier, which is a further indication that he's fine as is.
this thread is ridiculous.
not everyone gets to be a top tier. marth is probably mid-tier in this game, and he's fine that way. ideally, every character is mid-tier, which is a further indication that he's fine as is.
this thread is ridiculous.
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Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Implying that R.o.B's recovery isn't hilariously linear or easy to either outright edgeguard or punish once he's back on stage.
Implying that characters with tether recoveries as their main recoveries aren't hilariously susceptible to throw offstage --> Dair at much lower percents than other characters with Up-B's that actually cover vertical distance.
If a character has a recovery of some sort, Marth can stuff it. Some characters like Link have many more mix-ups than others - but that's where the skill comes in. (Funny note: Tipper Dair actually outspaces Link's Up-B when you force him to use it. Takes some practice, but once you get it you'll be surprising most Link mains with how easily they can be DUNKED.)
... Sure. I wanna say more on this but time constraints. Maybe I'll come back to this later.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Agreed.
If you think some perceived lack of kill power is hurting Marth's viability you're nuts. I'm not wonderful at this game and so I don't usually say it, but seriously, learn to play the character.
Y'all need practice.
(And if you don't play the game regularly, then why do you give a ****.)
marth's top tier
also mow how on earth are you killing offstage with marth faster than spacies? They have bair
the problem with tether recoveries is that they either recover semi-free (yeah you can ledgehop punish them but then they usually just end up back on stage, marth can't hit them back off the original direction really) or they just don't recover at all
I've mostly stopped complaining about marth and just started complaining about recoveries in PM in general though, so you might've been slightly confused
also mow how on earth are you killing offstage with marth faster than spacies? They have bair
actually edgeguarding rob is ridiculously dangerous since in between any of his gorillion jumps he can use a move–this is WAY less of an issue for marth than most characters though
the problem with tether recoveries is that they either recover semi-free (yeah you can ledgehop punish them but then they usually just end up back on stage, marth can't hit them back off the original direction really) or they just don't recover at all
I've mostly stopped complaining about marth and just started complaining about recoveries in PM in general though, so you might've been slightly confused
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Haha, yeah. I migrated from Brawl so the recoveries don't bother me as much. Though PM is making me forget certain things. I showed a friend of mine PM and he kept dying with Marth offstage. I told him "Why didn't you use Side-B? That's in Brawl too." Him: "I've never had to use Side - B to recover in Brawl!"
What.
Counting RoB's fuel tank shots and Zard's slow-ass glide seems fairly straightforward in comparison to moon gravity.
ROFL fair enough. I'm mostly a melee player so for me PM is like having a cast of a few dozen peaches and a couple jigglypuffs as far as recoveries go.
Which just makes characters with trash recoveries even more tragic. Sorry, roy ;_;
D
Deleted member
Guest
marth is definitely not top tier.
marth can also ledge hop bair just as well as fox and falco can.
how to kill fast with marth: hit/throw them off stage, when they come back, put the sword between the opponent and the stage like a 2D zelda game. if they try to do something to get around you, dair @ whatever they do. you'll kill them i promise.
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Mr. Fox
AKA Shiro
Tried it. Didn't work.
Besides, I think I'm more leaning towards what dRevan is saying. Maybe Marth doesn't have a specific problem, but the recovery system definitely does. I'd be satisfied with Marth if the cast didn't get to come back to the stage so freely.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
*shrug* Adapt.
If you really feel like Marth's tools are insufficient, that might color your opinion of him. I think Marth's fine and you don't but I think we can both agree that he probably won't be getting any changes. I don't think he should and you possibly should, and again we'll have to disagree there.
All that leaves is to either use Marth as he is in the PM enviroment or a pick a main that better suits you, I guess.
sure marth can do it too but falco/fox's bair is stronger, just like in a "how long does this take" competition the furry astronauts should win
and yes I know how to marth ty the sword is really good that's why he's top tier
Mr. Fox
AKA Shiro
That post you quoted was just saying that maybe his tools were sufficient, but the recovery in general is tough for everyone to handle, not just Marth. Nowhere in that post did I say I think he should receive changes.
And I will continue using Marth, regardless of whether or not they change this. However, I reserve my right to discuss problems I see and ask the PMBR for changes.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Fair enough.
Bukowski On Ice
Smash Cadet
I agree that the stages do effect the MUs a lot more in PM. Since I posted this thread I've looked deeper into MUs across the character roster and I've come up with a different issue overall. Most character recoveries are just amazing, and Marth can't deal with it. He doesn't need more kill power, I will agree now. Let's say instead that his WEAKNESS is he doesn't have good options against most recoveries now.
"Go out and sword your opponent until their dead" is a load of bull in PM. Why? Because people can recover from distances that Marth cannot safely get to and attack. He's still good against a good amount of characters but look at Zelda/Link/Lucas/Mewtwo/Pika/Diddy/Rob/etc who can recover from huge distances and who are difficult to punish for one reason or another.
If your answer to the argument is "just be better" then you're probably not looking at the character/game design; you're looking at the players (who you don't know). Increasing the strength of recoveries in PM has greatly reduced Marth's gimping ability, which was one of his biggest strengths in Melee.
Don't believe me? Go "sword" Diddy off stage.
"Go out and sword your opponent until their dead" is a load of bull in PM. Why? Because people can recover from distances that Marth cannot safely get to and attack. He's still good against a good amount of characters but look at Zelda/Link/Lucas/Mewtwo/Pika/Diddy/Rob/etc who can recover from huge distances and who are difficult to punish for one reason or another.
If your answer to the argument is "just be better" then you're probably not looking at the character/game design; you're looking at the players (who you don't know). Increasing the strength of recoveries in PM has greatly reduced Marth's gimping ability, which was one of his biggest strengths in Melee.
Don't believe me? Go "sword" Diddy off stage.
D
Deleted member
Guest
how to edge guard diddy: hold B until he gets close, then let it go.
god forbid that a character in a game with 41 characters have MUs that are unfavorable.
you guys are ridiculous. if you actually ask the PMBR to change marth, i'm going to specifically ask them not to. kill power is not this character's problem. the players, however, probably are.
god forbid that a character in a game with 41 characters have MUs that are unfavorable.
you guys are ridiculous. if you actually ask the PMBR to change marth, i'm going to specifically ask them not to. kill power is not this character's problem. the players, however, probably are.
Player -0
Smash Hero
You forget that other characters also have this problem. Recoveries like Zelda's actually probably hurt Jiggz more than it hurts Marth. Then again that whole MU seems kinda bad for Jiggz.
Mr. Fox
AKA Shiro
Jiggs unfortunately sucks in P:M for the same reason.
Umbreon, we've moved on from Marth needs more kill power. Now we just think recovery needs nerfing. Show us a video of you playing Marth in P:M "correctly" if you are so intent on pointing out why we don't know how to play him.
Umbreon, we've moved on from Marth needs more kill power. Now we just think recovery needs nerfing. Show us a video of you playing Marth in P:M "correctly" if you are so intent on pointing out why we don't know how to play him.
shadow0x0cloud
Smash Apprentice
Why can't things stay the same? Why because 2 or 3 people who, sorry to say, neither play nor represent the character at a high level can adapt. Honestly, no recoveries "got better". They were there in brawl.
Its much easier to say, hey guys I need help against xxx recovery than omg this char sucks balls cuz he can't murder recoveries like spacies
Its much easier to say, hey guys I need help against xxx recovery than omg this char sucks balls cuz he can't murder recoveries like spacies
Yeah, and I'm a melee player. This isn't an issue of not being able to deal with it. Poor recoveries are an overarching game design flaw that skews risktaking by devaluing gimps/low% kills and therefore enabling further pursuit of unsafe options (dumb ****) because you're less likely to be punished especially hard for doing so. One of the things I most like in melee outside of the physics engine is that it's volatile without being truly random because it's so ridiculously easy to just die because your opponent takes advantage of a mistake, and that aspect of gameplay has really been comparatively minimized in PM. This applies ubiquitously–I've recovered from stuff as marth that would've been absolutely guaranteed death in melee, and while I'm hardly going to forgo an advantage I'm given I'd honestly prefer nobody had it at all.
Like I said, PM feels in many ways like a game of Peaches/samuses (really good recovery) and puffs (borderline unstoppable recovery) instead of falcos/foxes/sheiks (terribly gimpable recovery with a slew of options) and marths/captain falcons/icies (terribly gimpable recovery with almost no options). Not that there isn't room for both–but I frankly prefer it when everyone dies early. It encourages excellent movement and therefore positioning, obviously necessary anyway to compete at a high level but emphasized when not doing so could you murdered on the spot.
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Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
^ Nominating for most "bcuz Merleeh" post of the year.
Anyway, nice to see you guys have moved on from blaming the character to blaming the game as a whole for your match-up inexperience. A++ discussion, hope you find a way to deal with not putting time into the game and figuring the chinks in everyone's armor and Marth's innate ability to stab right through them. This is a different game, a different beast, and one that Marth has already tamed. Figure it out on your own time, but don't waste the PMBR's time by clamoring for changes to a character that has flourished with the same basic moveset from Melee to Brawl Minus.
S'yeah, have fun.
Anyway, nice to see you guys have moved on from blaming the character to blaming the game as a whole for your match-up inexperience. A++ discussion, hope you find a way to deal with not putting time into the game and figuring the chinks in everyone's armor and Marth's innate ability to stab right through them. This is a different game, a different beast, and one that Marth has already tamed. Figure it out on your own time, but don't waste the PMBR's time by clamoring for changes to a character that has flourished with the same basic moveset from Melee to Brawl Minus.
S'yeah, have fun.
I described something melee did better and explained why it was better there. "PM is a different game" isn't a sufficient argument, no **** it's a different game and by most metrics it's a better game. This isn't one of them.
Because melee is never a stance I've been interested in taking. I don't think space animals' backairs need to be as ridiculously polarizing as they are just because they were that way in melee, I don't think the loss of 1 frame invincibility on shine was an undeserved nerf, I don't think anything should stay the same as it was in melee just because melee was that way. Melee is a great game with an amazing physics engine, but the balance between characters which is fundamental to a fighting game is lacking, to say the very least, and I think project m is overwhelmingly doing a better job. That I also think it could improve in one specific area that melee happened to get right does not mean that I think melee is the greatest achievement in fighting game design ever and PM should be an upscaled melee with more characters, because that's quite simply not true.
The bias however on these boards is to treat any posts that encourage an aspect of project m to function more like melee (or probably more like brawl, but I think those are less common) as being verboten in and of themselves because "PM is a different game." Okay, sure, but that's paramount to justifying sati because "India has a different culture" and frankly that's horse****. Pre-colonial Indian culture certainly was better in ways to English culture, and likewise Project M is better in many ways to Melee, but the relativist position of "different is different, don't change it" is a copout position that absolves the speaker of any responsibility to defend their stance, and frankly I find its use offensive to the quality of discourse. It's intellectually irresponsible to dismiss an argument on such arbitrary grounds as "he wants the game to be more like x y or z" because that ignores the possibility that x y or z might've actually done something BETTER.
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
Marths good neutral and combo game weighs his lack of kill potential up. Every character needs a weakness
no buff is needed really. You just have to legit play marth correctly. Precision is soooo critical. Picking a character means you have accepted their strengths but also accepted the bullchit that comes with the character. (marth would beast too hard with a high knockback Uair though)
ZexM
Smash Cadet
I agree that Marth doesn't have as many ill moves anymore and his ledge guard game has depleted quite a bit in P:M, but that's nothing a little edge hogging or spiking can't fix. Even at low damage, throwing someone off the ledge and waiting for them to come back for the recovery you can still short hop off the edge and D-Air them to death or pursue them with a single F-Air and edge hog the hell out of them. I find it much more difficult to win with Marth, but when you do its after realizing more technical skill rather than a well placed hard hitting move.
ZexM
Smash Cadet
As for the issue on recoveries, I have found with many people who play P:M forget (even for a moment) that characters have been buffed to balance them out in order to make them more viable characters to play with. We all know this, but tend to not take it into consideration at times when it is most prevalent. Characters who are noticeably horrible in earlier games now have lightning reflexes and the ability to look Fox in the eyes and say "Gimme a reason" an mean their threat. In short, recoverey is not an issue either. Like Umbreon said, the character is not the problem: The player is. Before we could argue that. Hell we even had a tier list that objectively points out which characters do better than other at a competitive level because it's not like Nintendo is putting out a patch for Melee or Brawl any time soon. But P:M does.
I know its a new concept to play a game where EVERY CHARACTER is inherently good and if they are not, the creators will strive to make that a reality, but so long as that is the case there will be no more tiers. Just personal skill and representation of style and prowess. The lot of us who want to play with Marth need to brandish our swords and know what the cost of doing so is. Its a high price for a kill, but we can dish it out. That's what its always meant to play Marth (at least to me).
I know its a new concept to play a game where EVERY CHARACTER is inherently good and if they are not, the creators will strive to make that a reality, but so long as that is the case there will be no more tiers. Just personal skill and representation of style and prowess. The lot of us who want to play with Marth need to brandish our swords and know what the cost of doing so is. Its a high price for a kill, but we can dish it out. That's what its always meant to play Marth (at least to me).
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
In addition, Marths lack of kill power is not that much of a problem because you can make so many percents out of positional advantages (punish landing etc) at high percents. And if that doesnt work you still have a great neutral game
Mr. Fox
AKA Shiro
lol I say I agree with what you're saying for the most part, and suddenly 9 new posts are telling me I'm wrong.
No more need for explaining your argument guys. We've heard it countless times at this point.
No more need for explaining your argument guys. We've heard it countless times at this point.
ZexM
Smash Cadet
Lol, I'm with you. I think we're set here
Satoru Iwata
Banned via Warnings
How can this be?
UconnScrub
Smash Rookie
Dude, will you just read the response from Lordling? Because honestly at this point he has covered your entire argument in one response. If you don't kill before 80%, then you need to build up the damage and kill later. Every character has positives and negatives to their game, and you need to understand that and instead of complaining about the newer characters and their better recoveries, how about just learning how to fight those characters MU's in general? I guarantee that there is a way for Marth to win all of those match-ups without ever needing to extensively edgeguard their recoveries. Hell, edgeguarding is not all a MU comes down to really, it mostly comes down to the basics of spacing and neutral game. Just learn the MU's and find new ways to fight the characters instead of just asking for buffs to a character how really doesn't need it.
Loli Bacon
Smash Rookie
I don't think recoveries are the problem in this game. Considering if you edge-hog properly while refreshing your invuln, you're forcing the opponent to land on the stage, at which point you can get up there and punish them with a combo into death or what have you. I think what people are complaining about is they aren't used to Marth having to put in work against other characters and now that everyone is viable, people are pissed they don't get their free kills by edge-guarding with Marth. Recoveries are good now, yes, but that doesn't mean they're overpowered; they're still gimpable, still can be predicted, and Marth is more than capable of covering multiple options to shut people out.
Just Edge-hog, force them to land on the stage, do ledge jump uair/dair > walk back > fsmash. God forbid that you people have to think.
Long story short: Adapt, or stop playing.
Just Edge-hog, force them to land on the stage, do ledge jump uair/dair > walk back > fsmash. God forbid that you people have to think.
Long story short: Adapt, or stop playing.
only one thing needs to change for Marth his USmash it's useless guys face it and maybe his DSmash beside that, he's fine.
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Question, can you also intercept their up-B by dropping down and doing a reverse up-B on their swing after they snap?
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Tossing out a walk-off fair to reverse Up-B works at several percents too. Ivy and Zamus in particular (characters who lack any vertical recovery option besides their tether) can die at really low percents because of this. Remember that once tethered, the characters have a very restricted plane of travel and are very vulnerable. Link can also be boned by this method if he can't pull out a bomb fast enough before falling to his death.
D
Deleted member
Guest
you don't want to. when you're trying to edge guard with marth, marth's entire character is based around setting up favorable air to air exchanges because marth always wins them (in theory anyway, if you do it right). the most reliable way to do that with tethers is to take the edge because they auto-sweetspot. therefore, you should basically always take the edge vs tethers, as any character pretty much. marth has no fast way to turn around for an up b kill from the edge.
however, if the opponent is really hurt, what you CAN do is ledgehop when they pull in on the tether and THEN up B them. it's laggy as hell but very reliable.
victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
People say Marth doesn't need another KO move, but other characters kill faster and easier, and don't need to rely on gimps for KO moves. In Melee I have no trouble KOing but t feels that Marth was nerfed from Melee to PM. Not because recoveries are better. He's just flat out weaker. Many people think he is mid tier now, and this was a top 4 character in Melee. His combos are generally weaker and he hss a harder time KOing.
My remedy? Make untippered down smash a KO move at 110 on most characters minus fast fallers.
My remedy? Make untippered down smash a KO move at 110 on most characters minus fast fallers.
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