Marth Needs More Kill Potential

[Bukowski On Ice]

I'll get right into it. Marth in Melee is amazing because of his gimping and ledge guarding potential. In Brawl he has many more kill options than just a tippered f-smash, like a tipped b-air. In P:M, the recovery options of the overall cast are much better, so Marth has a much more difficult time of dealing with many characters. Characters with tether moves become much more difficult to defeat when your ledge guards are EXTREMELY unsafe against them.

I'm not saying that Marth is bad or that he cannot kill other characters. I just feel like he's much less viable in PM because his combos don't lead into kills as well anymore. To compare kits let's look at Roy. His neutral B is much stronger from the initial non-charged hit, providing more kills from his combos. His b-air also kills easily after 100% dmg. These two moves alone give him more options for kills and provide him more fluidity for combos.

In the world of Melee where a hit off stage will kill, Marth is a god. In PM where many characters can recover AND get stage control after Marth (successfully or not) hits them while edge guarding, Marth is much worse.

I'm not complaining so much as wanting to see if other people have been experiencing the same feeling; a lack of power in their character.

 

[Mr. Fox]

I completely agree. I recently played against a Sonic player in tournament, and Marth was almost utterly useless because every time I got them offstage, they easily came back. Marth retains his immense ability from Melee, but other characters have buffed recoveries, which makes Marth's main kill method negligible. Something needs to be done.

 

[Deleted member]

marth is stupid fucking dangerous and if you think he has a hard time killing anything you're playing him wrong.

marth loses to cheese but all of the really hard stages are banned now anyway.

 

[Bukowski On Ice]

I'm not saying that Marth isn't dangerous or that I'm losing because of this issue. I'm saying that the cast of PM has so many recovery options that it's FAR more difficult to kill opponents on most neutral stages since even a tippered f-smash can be DIed very well.

Which is why I'd personally appreciate him having an additional definitive kill move.

 

[CyberZixx]

I felt like this in the past but the more I play the less I feel hampered by it. The more restrictions on the stage list helps too as Umbreon said. In this game Marth can not outright gimp maybe characters ala fox/falco. Instead he gets them the Peach approach, meaning off stage you put her in a bad position and keep safely swatting her until she no longer comes back. It takes longer but if done well the opponent can do little about it which is what matters.

 

[Skootarius]

I can see both sides. Really I think it all comes down to the matchup. Against predictable recoveries (Cpt Falcon) he has a wide selection of good intercepts for dealing with his opponents and killing early. I have found that the more I play Marth, the more I find that against recovery mix-up character (Tethers, AGT's, etc) had you're better of praying for a tipper, than going for a spike. Marth is a well rounded character. I don't think he needs extra killing power, but another move that kills (Around 80%+) wouldn't hurt. Right now, it's either F-Smash, or D-Air spike (Or that super flashy Up-Smash). That or you'd better be stacking on percent.

 

[Mr. Fox]

Marth is well-known for his edgeguarding tools. This is the main reason he was top tier in Melee. Take away edgeguarding ability, and he's much worse. He needs another kill move that he can combo into against characters that have OP recoveries.

 

[LordShade67]

Playing Marth from Brawl rather than Melee like everyone else here(I was mostly a Melee Peach player), I can see Marth being able to kill early or late being an issue. While the early one I can't think of anything, for later percentages....hm....Why not make his Tippered BAir a kill move?
1. In Brawl, it can kill Mario from center of FD(Yes I know, Brawl FD is smaller) at around 150% without DI. May take alittle more WITH DI, but it's still reliable in killing there.
2. As it stands, and this maybe just me, but Melee/PM Marth BAir seems to rarely get used(I can see why, but...).
It wouldn't take away from his edgeguarding, it would give it some use, and possibly deal with his general killing issues. Of course, this is just me theory crafting and all, so yeah.

EDIT: Tested on Mario, btw.

 

[Deleted member]

marth can already kill with fsmash ftilt uptilt upsmash dsmash dair and up B, even without gimps. if you add gimps, literally his entire movement is a kill move. marth definitely does not need another kill move. i reiterate that you are playing him wrong.

against tethers, edge hog and when they snap up do a ledge jump upair and just juggle them instead. an opponent with no options is already dead anyway.

 

[G13_Flux]

dont forget umbreon, things like ftilt, utilt, upsmsh, and dsmash dont exactly kill until higher percents. his main kills are dair and fsmash (up b is character dependent, like on spacies), and those other ones become useful as a last resort. However, I am on the side that nothing needs to be done to marth. He has combos that kill efficiently enough, and since he was such a force in melee, the worst thing that can happen to him is that he will be mid-high tier, most likely high. Also, his spacing and neutral game are still so great that he counters a lot of the new combers in that manor. maybe it takes a bit of extra effort to kill them, but thats a matter of endurance. If a character has an extremely difficult time getting in on marth, then its not likely to be a great MU, despite the fact that they can survive his edge guards a bit better.

If you want a killing and combo powerhouse, play roy. If you want a character that is more efficient in terms of mobility, pressure, and controlling space, then play marth.

 

[dRevan64]

A lot of recoveries are disproportionately good in this game, which is why you get the perception of marth's gimps being less effective. That's a more fundamental problem with project m's design philosophy than marth, and that complaint should also logically take place in its own thread.. I have incredible amounts of faith in marth as a character, in melee as well as in PM (more so than even umbreon apparently) and while I've undoubtedly experienced can't-kill-****-captain syndrome I also know that when that's happening, it's basically my own damn fault. The biggest problem I think marths have is when they get down they start fishing for a kill move and that's terrible with marth since his **** is super punishable, and if your opponent knows you're doing that they can just get off on you while you try to forward smash them.

Mow you forgot side b 3

 

[Mr. Fox]

I swear Umbreon, you just keep saying I don't know how to play Marth right just because we're debating what we see as a problem. You can give us your opinion and you can give me advice as to what strings to use at high percents into a kill or how to properly edgeguard characters like R.O.B. or Sonic, but it does absolutely nothing to tell me I'm playing the character wrong without giving details.

I love the idea of buffing the tipper Bair to kill at 130% at least. At high percent, Marth's only option is to Fthrow tech chase into an Fsmash. If I'm wrong, give me another solution, but that's what I've found.

And I agree that the main problem is P:M, but because I see it as less probable that the PMBR would nerf overall recovery than the option of buffing Marth, I'm going with the latter.

Also, ledge jump Uair juggling doesn't work at the percents I'm referring to...

 

[Xinc]

I definitely see Marth as a bit weaker because characters can recover far easier this time around. As many people agree, Marth kills either REALLY EARLY or REALLY LATE. That can be quite a big problem for Marth, especially having a not so good recovery but not having the means to be a glass cannon like Falco. He should warrant a buff.

 

[Crescent Monkey]

Characters that frighten me more than Marth:



Thats it.

That being said, Marth has his fair share of bad matchups, but he's still super solid. Definitely not Marth tier.

 

[Mr. Fox]

Well that's your opinion, and we aren't saying Marth is bad anyways.

What we're trying to say is that Marth is still good, but he has trouble killing some of the new characters that can recover more easily than say, Fox or Falco. This means that either Marth needs another kill method, but not anything crazy (which is why I like the Bair buff idea), or just a general nerf towards recovery.

 

[G13_Flux]

i see what youre saying, but they dont need to keep marth up in the top tier. In fact, i doubt theyre aiming to. Its the same reason why jiggs, shiek, peach, and CF got either no buffs, or minimal buffs. They are already competent, and despite a possible decrease in potential relative to the rest of the cast, they still do have a solid character base, enough such that things are still balanced. We dont need another melee with the same 5 characters in the top tier every single time. The fact that marth had very few MUs that were at all disadvantageous in melee just means that PM is more rounded out, giving more characters a shot. Even if marth has a few disadvantageous MUs, so what. This just adds more dynamics to the MUs in this game. He still has the tools to take a dump on a lot of the cast.

 

[Mr. Fox]

Well Captain Falcon and Peach both got buffed quite a bit actually.

But back on topic, Project M shouldn't be a game where your main is useless against certain characters. Imo, all matchups should be fine-tuned to be as even as possible so that every player can use whoever they want.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

That's extremely difficult to create in a competitive environment where many characters function incredibly differently from one another. By fixing something for a particular match-up, say X Character vs Y Character, so that X handles Y better, you're creating problems in other areas. For example, You could buff X's range to deal with Y's longer range, this could mean an advantage Z Character once had over X would be diminished and would tilt the MU. You COULD instead nerf Y, but of course this alters ALL of Y's MUs.

Anyway, on the topic at hand, I believe Marth is well off. Saying he could use more kill moves is kinda silly because every character could theoretically use more kill moves. Character's are certainly not UNGIMPABLE. A new game (which P:M might as well be) will take time to evolve, as will the edge game. I'm pretty confident princess Marth won't be getting kill move changes, if any changes at all, by the time all is said and done.

 

[Mr. Fox]

If someone will show me a video of how to gimp Sonic, I'll shut up.

Also, not all characters need more kill moves. Looking at you, Ganondorf.

 

[G13_Flux]

Well Captain Falcon and Peach both got buffed quite a bit actually.

But back on topic, Project M shouldn't be a game where your main is useless against certain characters. Imo, all matchups should be fine-tuned to be as even as possible so that every player can use whoever they want.

The buffs that both of them got are quite minimal. Peach got slight buffs to side b, fsmash, up b, and gained AGT and GT. CF got some buffs to side bs recovery, and gained a gimmick in his falcon punch's reversals. CF gained no kill potential, and peach only got slight buffs to moves that she rarely kills with. Theyre subtle buffs. nothing more. Marth was already higher on the tier list than both of them, and gained a DACUS.

Maybe gimping sonic isnt that easy, but hes also one of the lighest characters in the game, with literally some of the worst range and priority out of all. Try having some more patience in the MU, and learn how to anticipate his approaches and recovery tactics. Act likewise. Maybe marth isnt advatageous against everyone anymore, but that doesnt mean he gets **** on by everybody either. in fact, i dont think he gets **** on by anybody, a few MUs might only be slightly disadvantageous.

Additionally, ganon is one of the absolute least mobile characters in the game. Thats the trade off. Marth is one of the most mobile, and has combos that kill earlier than almost anything Ganon can dish out. Capitalize on your combos early, and I dont think you will still view marth the same way.

With all due respect, a little less complaining on smashboards, and more productive MU practice might help give you some of the answers you are looking for.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

If someone will show me a video of how to gimp Sonic, I'll shut up.

Also, not all characters need more kill moves. Looking at you, Ganondorf.

Sonic actually isn't that hard to gimp if you, y'know, practice the MU. To Gimp Sonic requires good character knowledge of him, for example, sidestepping makes homing attack go down and forward, once Sonic is forced to UpB there are possibilities of edgeguarding him. Obviously it's not easy, and Sonic's an extreme example, but it's still manageable with enough practice. I'm pretty sure Marth's Dair still spikes.

 

[Mr. Fox]

There's a difference between complaining and discussing. What this thread is is a way for us to discuss certain aspects of P:M Marth's game. So I don't see why it's wrong to do so. Complainers just complain. What I am doing is explaining something that I believe needs to be changed, and giving ideas for ways they could go about changing it. If you don't agree, by all means post your opinion, but don't just assume that the player isn't skilled or knowledgeable simply because they see something differently from you.

I still haven't seen any real examples of how to edgeguard Sonic. But ya know, maybe he is the extreme.

Try telling me how to edgeguard R.O.B., Dedede, Zelda, and Lucario.

 

[gnosis]

just juggle them instead. an opponent with no options is already dead anyway.

I've seen you say similar things before, and I get where you're coming from. Basically, buffing Marth's kill potential (like, say, uair killing sooner) isn't a real buff because if you're stuck in the air against him you're already dead - he's just gotta go through the motions long enough. The thing is, every single Marth player who has ever played the game has messed this up, not just occasionally but multiple times a match. PP, m2k, there's dozens of examples on youtube of them letting characters like Peach back in to the neutral. It takes quick reactions, precision, and consistency to perform the juggle long enough to eke out a kill from something like uair/tipper fair currently.

So in a theoretical sense, making uair kill sooner isn't a buff, but in a practical sense, it's a buff as far as every single actual person who has played Marth is concerned. If a character needs buffs, little things like increasing their consistency and reducing the chance of user error are certainly places to look. Even if there's that perfect Marth out there who never once messes it up, why should we only be concerned about how that ubermensch plays the game? It doesn't matter to them one way or the other, but the rest of us are suddenly performing better with Marth. That's not a real buff because some .0001% of the player population didn't need it?

That and let's just ignore the idea of buffing or nerfing, let's consider pacing. If Marth gets you in the air and you're dead, and that's a process that we're fine with in the matchup, then why extend the facade so long? Like if he had the same theoretical guaranteed juggle to death, but he couldn't kill you with it until 999%, it'd be perfectly reasonable to say 'no, we're gonna stop this silly little song and dance, and let him end it sooner at ~130', or whatever. Think of something like ICs with wobble but their smashes are significantly weaker - why extend a dead process for so long?

Not that I really think Marth needs buffs, just my thoughts on that particular argument.

edit: just to clarify, I think Marth right now doesn't take too long to kill someone out of a juggle, and doesn't need the consistency buff of something like tipper fair/uair killing sooner. But I think it's something that could potentially be true, and then buffing uair would make sense even though it's not a 'real buff'. In other words this post isn't really relevant to this thread and it's more just me masturbating about design stuff to see what people think LOL

 

[Mr. Fox]

Sonic actually isn't that hard to gimp if you, y'know, practice the MU. To Gimp Sonic requires good character knowledge of him, for example, sidestepping makes homing attack go down and forward, once Sonic is forced to UpB there are possibilities of edgeguarding him. Obviously it's not easy, and Sonic's an extreme example, but it's still manageable with enough practice. I'm pretty sure Marth's Dair still spikes.

So you're saying we need to get a Ken Combo four times to win versus Sonic?

 

[Bukowski On Ice]

Marth is still a great character. This is just an idea brought up to bring out a discussion of what people think he's lacking in PM.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

You want a definitive kill move?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av2JQO8zuNo

There.

Spoiler

DAIR.

 

[Deleted member]

Not that I really think Marth needs buffs, just my thoughts on that particular argument.

Sure, but frankly it's probably a good thing that a smart and experienced opponent has some form of interaction from a disadvantageous position if the Marth player slips up. It forces both players to actually play, which is a good thing. The idea to me that Marth "needs more kill power" is absurd on a character that's already ridiculously dangerous. Marth loses much more to cheese and bad CPs than he loses to margin on his punishment game.

 

[Mr. Fox]

You want a definitive kill move?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av2JQO8zuNo

There.

Spoiler

DAIR.

How many times do we have to say, Dair isn't reliable after 80%+. You can't combo into it beyond then, and it's only a kill move offstage. Very very limited use.

We aren't saying Marth can't kill, because he can. Otherwise he wouldn't have the results he does. What we ARE saying is that we believe he needs a little something to finish players once they are at the infamous 90%-130% range.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Why?

Marth is a character who's all about spacing. He's already godlike in his grab game, combo game, good speed aerials and a large disjoint to deal with a wide variety of projectiles and pressure, and an amazing edgeguarding moveset.

If you properly space with Marth, you have more kill power than Ike without the severe vulnerability to pressure close up.
If you space properly with Marth, you have guaranteed gimps on characters who have the misfortune to have low airspeed or bad air maneuverability or a poor recovery who happened to have been tossed offstage.
If you have a large hurtbox, you're more likely to get tipped. If you have a tether recovery, your Up-B won't save you from a dair even at lower percents.

Marth rewards precision. You either kill before 80 or you slip up and kill after 130. The range in between where he doesn't shine and needs to rack up damage as quickly as possible is part and parcel of his moveset. It's the penalty you get for sloppy play, which is far more lenient than a sloppy Falco, who usually dies offstage.

So really, all I'm hearing here we should get an option for playing Marth like he's not supposed to be played, or we should have another option on top of the dozen we already have in the event we screw up.

How about no? You take Marth's flaws together with his advantages, which are no less in the P:M environment. Marth is one of the more dangerous characters on the roster, if played right, and if you mess up you have to deal with the penalty for it, like every other character out there. Lucario doesn't get an aura charge if he misses Spirit Bomb, Bowser doesn't get his stock back if he messes up a Fortress hog, Falco doesn't flap his wings and fly back to the stage if he dairs too low and we have to fish for Up-Tilts and Shield Breaker kills if we don't tip or gimp our opponents below 80, or fail to edgeguard them properly. That is the risk you accept for Marth's explosive rewards.

 

[Deleted member]

seriously. if you want to kill someone, throw them off the stage and then sword them until they die. damage doesn't matter for this character anyway.

 

[gnosis]

Sure, but frankly it's probably a good thing that a smart and experienced opponent has some form of interaction from a disadvantageous position if the Marth player slips up. It forces both players to actually play, which is a good thing. The idea to me that Marth "needs more kill power" is absurd on a character that's already ridiculously dangerous. Marth loses much more to cheese and bad CPs than he loses to margin on his punishment game.

Definitely agreed. I think the stagelist more than anything is what makes Marth a little less amazing in PM than in Melee.

 

[Nguz95]

This thread.
lolwut

 

[Deleted member]

Definitely agreed. I think the stagelist more than anything is what makes Marth a little less amazing in PM than in Melee.

spot on. better recoveries are a close second, but still good call.

 

[Mr. Fox]

We aren't asking for an alternative for tipper F-Smashing. That remains one of Marth's guaranteed kill moves on every foe. I'm asking for an option against characters who CANNOT be edgeguarded as long as they don't slip up. Besides, the buff I'm looking for could be a simple knockback boost to tipper Uair or Bair. Nothing drastic.

Also, I don't think the stage list is what makes Marth less amazing in P:M. It's the better recovery, and that alone.

 

[Fortress]

Marth needs more kill potential? Do not enough people know basic things like wavedash>f-smash? Or off-stage carries with f-air? Or edge-tech like an edgehopped b-air for characters like Sonic? Marth isn't less viable in P:M, it's just a wider portion of the roster can stand up to him.

RoyxMarth, for example. A Roy who uses Blazer to recover from below can be shut down with a simple counter from Marth, dumping him into the bottom corners of the stage. F-smash can kill outright, or put somebody far enough out for a daring Marth to chase, at percents as low as fifty. I've been killed plenty of times at thirty as Roy on stages like Wario Ware. Marth is pretty hype.

 

[dRevan64]

Better recoveries is so much of it. Way more than stages, IMO, but I tend to think marth's good as long as he can park his ass on the floor and run around down there.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'm asking for an option against characters who CANNOT be edgeguarded as long as they don't slip up.

Those don't exist.

Besides, if your edgeguarding game isn't perfect 100% of the time, neither will their recovering. And even if we allow for characters to take the best option v/s Marth every single time, then he STILL has enough ways to shut down every option given a good read or timely reaction.

the buff I'm looking for could be a simple knockback boost to tipper Uair or Bair. Nothing drastic.

If you don't realize how increasing the knockback on tipper Uair to make it a kill move would completely ruin Marth's juggle game I'm not sure we can even have this discussion. Marth's uair is as awesome as it is because of its low knockback. Uair is one of Marth's moves that tends to always tip and increasing the knockback on it would make follow-ups harder for no good reason. More power =/= buff. Look at Ganondorf. Look at how much Ike has to work for his combos. I'd know.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

We aren't asking for an alternative for tipper F-Smashing. That remains one of Marth's guaranteed kill moves on every foe. I'm asking for an option against characters who CANNOT be edgeguarded as long as they don't slip up. Besides, the buff I'm looking for could be a simple knockback boost to tipper Uair or Bair. Nothing drastic.

Also, I don't think the stage list is what makes Marth less amazing in P:M. It's the better recovery, and that alone.

Characters are just a bit more... tenacious than before. From what I can tell DK/Bowser have increased vertical height on UpB from melee. Mario gets a bit better horizontal recovery and the added vertical height with the ability to wall jump after the UpB given the right stage. Pretty much all characters from Melee might have received a buff in allowing them to more easily reach the stage. But, there is really nothing about them that completely changes how Marth could deny these recoveries. If you intercept Mario offstage there is not much he can do about it since his methods take a very long time to work or are very predictable. I cannot say too much for newer characters from brawl since I have not seen it much. But, tether recoveries are very vulnerable during the animation in which they first grab the ledge.

Overall, Marth thrives on denying some action a person chooses. Once you get them in the air, few if any characters are going to have a method which will guarantee them to get past Marth's sword. You do not have to always end stocks early with a couple of sporadic hits or a strong move which has few situations which leads into it. Another strategy which marth uses is simply preventing a person from ever being able to retaliate against him. Or continually swat them away. If your opponent is constantly trying to recover they can never hurt you and they will die eventually if you keep doing this. You can say mistakes happen and they do, but its not impossible to play perfect denial game.

 

[Deleted member]

Better recoveries is so much of it. Way more than stages, IMO, but I tend to think marth's good as long as he can park his *** on the floor and run around down there.

i haven't had problems edge guarding most characters, and the ones i have issues with it's me failing to adapt, not that the character can't do it.

i'll reiterate against that if you need more kill options, you're playing marth incorrectly.

 

[dRevan64]

i haven't had problems edge guarding most characters, and the ones i have issues with it's me failing to adapt, not that the character can't do it.

i'll reiterate against that if you need more kill options, you're playing marth incorrectly.

Well that's just it, I think, the problem isn't that marth can't edgeguard these characters, it's that edgeguarding them requires way, way more time than it does a fox, falco or sheik (or another marth). At least some of this is just bias from being more experienced with melee bu the point isn't that marth can't edgeguard these characters, it's that in his edgeguarding of these characters he needs to execute properly for much longer periods of time. It's almost like every character is peach-esque in that way–definitely edgeguardable, but with a slew of options that makes the edgeguard a protracted chore, and reasonably inconsistent.
I still think marth is way too godlike for this to take him from borderline best character in the game to anything less than top, top tier, but it's pretty clear that it does hurt him somewhat, and (at least in my opinion) hurts the game's pacing pretty noticeably.