Marth Forward-B Randomly Causes An Instant Drop Instead of Gaining Height

[kirbstir]

I'm not sure how well known this is, but even the great Mew2King didn't fully know all the information when I explained this to him, and I've gotten questions about it so I'm posting it here.

It should be noted that this also affects anybody whose forward-B moves give them a "boost" when used in the air the first time, and none afterwards. This includes Roy, Mario, Dr. Mario, and others I'm forgetting.

This post is an explanation for why, sometimes, for some "random" reason, Marth will start instantly falling after using his first forward-B in the air, which usually gives Marth a boost of air.

Already Known:
- When you forward-B in the air once, you normally gain some height and begin falling more slowly
- When you forward-B in the air more than once, the first one gives you the "boost" while the rest just have the effect of slowing your fall.

It should be well known that if you double jump after doing an air forward-B, and then do another forward-B while still rising from the double jump, you'll just start falling immediately without gaining all the height possible from that second jump. I'll call this the "punishment" for trying to gain more height than the developers felt Marth should be allowed to.

So I guess when you forward-B in the air, the "punishment flag" is set. Whenever you forward-B again while this flag is on, you don't gain the "boost" from the first forward-B. This flag is only reset once you land.

The Experiment:

If you forward-B in the air, then land normally, the Punishment Flag is reset. This is pretty well established.

Now, jump, forward-B in the air, then do an fair right before you land, so that you land during the fair animation. Jump again, and during the beginning of the jump, forward-B.

It becomes clear - landing while doing an aerial A move (nair, fair, uair, dair, bair) does not seem to reset the "Punishment Flag" and you'll instantly start dropping. Testing confirms that even aerial B moves can cause this if you land in the middle of one (forward-B in air, then land while doing a Shield Breaker or the down-B Parry).

Now, jump, forward-B in the air, then do a fair right before you land. Now jump and land normally, then jump and do a fair again.

When you land normally, the flag gets reset, and you'll gain height on your next aerial forward-B.

So to reset the flag, you need to "land" normally. Testing confirms that wavedashing will reset this flag (since in the end, all a wavedash is can be described as "landing immediately").

 

[Bailey]

Yea I know what you mean by that sometimes that screws me up a lot with recovering and IDK Y. And M2K didn't know?? We are doomed by this random event of the foward B.

 

[Dark Sonic]

It doesn't randomly cause an instant drop because it's completely predicatable. If you do the side B while you're rising (if you don't have the floaty B) then you will lose all upward momentum and immediately start to fall. You get your floaty B back whenever you reset your "Jump Cycle." There was already a thread about this a while ago. Your jump cycle is only reset when you actually land on the ground (not with an aerial animation.) The Normal Landing and Special Landing (after an up B, airdodge, or wavedash) reset the jump cycle.

Thread over

 

[gongbomb]

Yes yes, I believe I recall a thread a while back about this topic. Someone (I forget who...) explained to us about the "floaty forward b" which is the first forward b marth uses in the air. You don't get that floaty b back until you land on the stage in a neutral position, via regular jumping or wavedashing as you mentioned. L-canceled landings and grabbing the ledge won't give you back your floaty b, so wave dash or something after you get on the stage to ensure that extra boost in recovery.

Good explanation on your part though.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

I never realized that much could be written on the first stroke of the over-b combo...Kirbstir, props to you...

 

[Nick Nasty]

Now I realize that I have to be more careful when I'm using the first >B. Thanks for the info.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Yeah, someone did explain this before, but you presented it a little differently. Nice dude, good info.

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

This is why it's a bad idea to use your forward B at higher percentages when in the air over the stage. If your opponent hits you off the stage, even after you land on the stage, you'll lose that forward B which gives you height. You have to do a wavedash/airdodge/empty jump to regain the forward B.

 

[Lixivium]

I remember reading about this same phenomenon with Doc's tornado. I guess it happens with any B move that changes your momentum.

 

[JesiahTEG]

hmmm, now that's an interesting theory.

 

[metroid1117]

Someone already posted about this, but it's a good refresher for anybody who forgot or didn't read that useful thread.

 

[Lixivium]

Makes me wonder if there's a similar explanation for when I randomly lose my jumps.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^ No, losing your jumps has nothing to do with this. You get your second jump back as long as you got back on the stage (including the ledge) in some manner. You're probably "losing it" by trying to jump as someone is hitting you, so you don't see the jump even though you used it.

 

[jiaflu]

It becomes clear - landing while doing an aerial A move (nair, fair, uair, dair, bair) does not seem to reset the "Punishment Flag" and you'll instantly start dropping.

I remember from the other thread that this "Flag" that you're talking about resets any time you land "normally." In other words, landing while doing a aerial doesn't affect the flag, but landing it while l-canceling will.

Can't remember the details of the thread though.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^ No. Landing while doing an aerial will never reset your side B because it uses a different landing animation than the ones progammed to reset it. Normal landing, Wavedashing, and Special Landing (landing after an Up B or air dodge) all have Marth land in that crouching position while all of the aerials have specific landing positions. L-canceling doesn't change this.

 

[Klowne]

Hey, i remember explaining this with 'floaty' terms back in that thread everyone seems to remember. Back then i didn't know about the nuetral landing position thing though, someone had to point that out to me.

 

[Scissors Sir]

when you do a fwd+b and then land the very next aerial fwd+b u do (without jumping in between) will fall

meaning it will keep that effect as long as u haven't jumped at all between landing and going for another aerial fwd+b

if u want to reset this effect all you have to do is jump again

that's why it resets when u wavedash cuz a wavedash initially starts with a jump

I haven't done it in a while but I believe u can also jump and do another aerial after the aerial fwd+b and still get that same effect. that part I'm not positive about though.

used to set it up and do aerial fwd+b out of shield at times...since it would pretty much stay on the ground if u start if fast enough in the air

but let me shut up now cuz I don't play with marth anymore...

*moves cursor to pikachu*

teeheehee

 

[Dark Sonic]

Actually, what you have to do to reset it is "Land" again. Even landing with the up B resets the fwd B cycle. Unfortunately you HAVE to use either the default landing animation (when Marth lands normally without doing an aerial) or the special landing animation (after an airdodge or up B and Marth is unable to do anything). NO EXCEPTIONS. And please read the previous posts before posting any information. Something you want to say may have already been said or even disputed before.

 

[Scissors Sir]

you know sonic wave...

about a month ago I would've had an angry follow up post to what you said.

but today is a new day...

and you're absolutely right. I should've read the other posts before posting what I did.

Have a nice day sir. *grabs a cup of tea*

will you have some tea with me sonic wave? lmao

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sorry about the tone of my post. I'm just a little irritable because of all the "Marth will be replaced by Ike" arguements in the brawl character discussion. They're not the least bit similar, but people just want to get rid of Marth 'cause he's difficult to learn how to fight against.

 

[phanna]

I suspect it's the exact same thing that refreshes other things like Mario's ability to gain height from his Tornado: You have to be standing on the ground normally for at least once frame. So if you are recovering as Marth, do a side-b to gain some height, and are landing on the level while you get grabbed and thrown back off, another side-b won't boost your height, since you hadn't gotten your idle standing frame in yet. To see what I'm talking about (with Mario), read the thread Tornado (down-b): When does it regenerate?

Edit: after reading the other posts in this thread, and trying it out myself, I found out that most people said the right thing - it's kind of cool, I didn't know this before. Whereas some characters (like mario's) recovery capabilities get reset in Idle Frames, Marth's do not, and require a normal (non-aerial) landing. Neat-o.