Mario's Moveset: Breakdown & Discussion (Session 21: Super Jump Punch + Customs)

[mario123007]

I usually use up air or Nair to halt frontal approaches. I've been trying to find more uses for the Kobe, and I can testify that it actually is a somewhat decent punish tool. If anything, you have the element of surprise on your side, because no one actually expects you to use the Kobe onstage.

But I think The Kobe is a bit useless when it come to try to KO your opponent on stage unless your opponent is already at high damage. I remember Mario's The Kobe was very powerful back in Melee that you can just do a couple of The Kobe and the opponent will be KOed.

 

[MarioMeteor]

But I think The Kobe is a bit useless when it come to try to KO your opponent on stage unless your opponent is already at high damage. I remember Mario's The Kobe was very powerful back in Melee that you can just do a couple of The Kobe and the opponent will be KOed.

Nobody uses the Kobe to KO onstage. It's KO potential is strictly for offstage use. I'm talking about using it as a punish tool.

 

[mario123007]

Nobody uses the Kobe to KO onstage. It's KO potential is strictly for offstage use. I'm talking about using it as a punish tool.

Huh? is it possible to use The Kobe to punish? I had tried, but it hardly works...

 

[MarioMeteor]

Huh? is it possible to use The Kobe to punish? I had tried, but it hardly works...

It is, indeed. It's quite effective when it does work.

 

[mario123007]

It is, indeed. It's quite effective when it does work.

I might try it out next time.

 

[HeroMystic]

Session 19: Fireball Specials

Fireball Start Frame: f16
Fireball Duration: f1 - f31
Fireball Damage: 5%(f1 - f29); 4%(f30 - f31)

Fast Fireball Start Frame: f8
Fast Fireball Duration: f1-f7
Fast Fireball Damage: 3%(f1-f4); 2.3%(f5); 1.5%(f6-f7)

Fire Orb Start Frame: ??? (Not Recorded)
Fire Orb Duration: ??? (Not Recorded)
Fire Orb Damage: 1.5% Repeating

To note, Fire Orb's frames are not properly recorded on the Data sheet.

Discussion on Fireball, Fast Fireball, and Fire Orb can begin now.

 

[KenMeister]

So uhhh......I don't really have many customs, but are there any specific MU's where fast fireball might be a decent option for zoning over normal fireball, or not really?

 

[MarioMeteor]

Fireball - Great zoning tool and very, very annoying. Can also be used to gimp people out of their double jump, just be careful where you use it because the ending lag is disgusting. They can also be used for anti-edgeguarding purposes and can be converted into things like jab and forward tilt after a short hop.
Fast Fireball - Immensly annoying and disruptive. They can be used to snuff approaches and they can probably jab reset, though I never got the chance to try it. I like to throw then after knocking opponents down, because unless they tech, they will get hit. It's even more important to watch your spacing with these, because these won't flinch if used from far away.
Fire Orb - This one is pretty much strictly limited to edgeguarding, though hitting with it onstage means a lot of damage and a free grab. Your best bet is to use these to stop your opponent from grabbing the edge.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So uhhh......I don't really have many customs, but are there any specific MU's where fast fireball might be a decent option for zoning over normal fireball, or not really?

It's most obvious against Luigi and Ganondorf. Fast Fireball outspams Luigi's Fireball forcing him to approach you. And default fireball is crap against someone like Ganon who just N-airs through it if you try to do anything aggressive with it. Also against characters that charge projectiles like Lucario and Mewtwo, Fast Fireball lets you interrupt them more easily.

The real reasons I prefer Fast Fireball are because Scalding FLUDD already covers most of the options default Fireball does, and because it's a superior B reverse tool due to its much lower commitment, which helps you turn around your negative state more easily.

Fire Orb I can really only see being used MAYBE in teams. If you want to be funny, I think a set like 333X is probably usable in teams.

 

[mario123007]

Standard fireball is not bad for zoning, however some fast characters, or character have attacks to deflect,or even reflect fireballs might be a bit tricky. Mario's fireball drops more quicker compare to Brawl too.
Fast Fireball is a move I will use, even though it doesn't make your opponent flinch that much, at least it will give pressure to your opponents.
Fire Orb is a move similar to Ness' PK Fire, it can trap your enemies for a while, even if they shield, you can still go grab them. A good move too.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's most obvious against Luigi and Ganondorf. Fast Fireball outspams Luigi's Fireball forcing him to approach you.

You don't need Fast Fireball to force Luigi to approach. Well-spaced fireballs and Cape to deflect his fireballs does the job fine.

 

[mario123007]

You don't need Fast Fireball to force Luigi to approach. Well-spaced fireballs and Cape to deflect his fireballs does the job fine.

I think fast fireball has faster speed and range for more easier pressure on Luigi. Well-space fireballs requires good timing and cape requires fast reaction.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

Fireball- A nice move to use for edgeguarding and approaches. It can also help you camp.
Fast Fireball- Wrecks approaches very nicely, and also comes out very fast. It doesn't make your opponent flinch, but I don't really care. It's quite the useful tool. I think of it as a slightly slower Fox laser.
Fire Orb- Ugh. The fire orb, or as I call it; the "derp fire ball." I never use this move. It has a ridiculous amount of startup time, and it also travels really slowly throughout its time during activation, and it doesn't travel as far as the other two moves. To me, it's infinitely inferior to the other fireballs, and I won't use it in my custom Marios.

Edit: The fast fireball does cause flinching, but it's a very small amount of flinch.

 

[meleebrawler]

Fireball- A nice move to use for edgeguarding and approaches. It can also help you camp.
Fast Fireball- Wrecks approaches very nicely, and also comes out very fast. It doesn't make your opponent flinch, but I don't really care. It's still quite the useful tool. I think of it as a slightly slower Fox laser.
Fire Orb- Ugh. The fire orb, or as I call it; the "derp fire ball." I never use this move. It has a ridiculous amount of startup time, and it also travels really slowly throughout its time during activation, and it doesn't travel as far as the other two moves. To me, it's infinitely inferior to the other fireballs, and I won't use it in my custom Marios.

Fast Fireballs do make people flinch (unless they don't at max distance or something?), it's just really small hitstun compared to normal, you can still interrupt things with them.

If you just HAVE to use Fire Orb for some reason, play Doc instead with his mega pills, not only does it mesh
better with his defensive gameplan but it actually does good damage unlike Mario's.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

Fast Fireballs do make people flinch (unless they don't at max distance or something?), it's just really small hitstun compared to normal, you can still interrupt things with them.

Yeah, that is true. Sorry about not clarifying. I meant to say it doesn't make your opponent flinch too much, but I neglected to add that detail in before I posted.

Also, nice tip on Doc's mega pill. I might actually try it out .

 

[meleebrawler]

Yeah, that is true. Sorry about not clarifying. I meant to say it doesn't make your opponent flinch too much, but I neglected to add that detail in before I posted.

Also, nice tip on Doc's mega pill. I might actually try it out .

To clarify more on why Doc benefits more from this move than Mario, his higher damage moves force players
to be more cautious in attacking him, thus he is more likely to get the time he needs to throw one out. It is also
almost completely useless in the air and since Mario spends a lot of time up there maneuvering and approaching
he doesn't need a move like this to bog him down.

...You know, when they first showed this move to introduce customs, I thought they were playing it
in slow motion. What a shock it was to see no, it really is that slow.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You don't need Fast Fireball to force Luigi to approach. Well-spaced fireballs and Cape to deflect his fireballs does the job fine.

Gust Cape + Fast Fireballs is even better in that matchup...frankly. Also Caping isn't as useful when he actually zones with air fireballs as well.

 

[BSP]

...You know, when they first showed this move to introduce customs, I thought they were playing it
in slow motion. What a shock it was to see no, it really is that slow.

No lie, I thought the same thing when I saw it. I was thinking "...are they in slow-mo for this? No? Good luck hitting anyone with that."

That being said, I don't see much use for Fire Orb in battles. It's too slow.

 

[Xeze]

Fire Orb is trash compared to the other two variants. There's just no reason to use it over them.
I personally prefer the default Fireball but I should give the Fast Fireball more use in certain matchups.

 

[Luggy]

• Normal Fireball : Nice tool for approaching and edgeguarding. Though the move is punishable at times, it's still a great move for the plumber. Using it against characters without a reflector is nice. Characters with it can be a problem, relfecting your own approaches to make them his. A good move in general.
• Fast Fireball : Great move for annoying people. It can stop many characters fast and gives you some opportunities to hit or surprise them. It's cool against characters with deflectors, and those without it. It's fast, disruptive and useful. The greatest custom tool for Mario.
• Fire Orb : It's bad. Really bad. The move is super slow, meaning that it's only good for edgeguarding. And even at that, it's not worth it, since Mario has many moves to do that, even a whole special move for this job. It's really poor for Mario, and it's probably his worse custom move in his entire inventory. It's sad. The only way it could improve would be adding an explosion at the end of the move. But even with that, good luck making this move viable.

That's my thoughts about the fireballs. Feel free to disagree.

 

[MarioMeteor]

If they were going to put a move called "Fire Orb" in the game, why not the actual attack in the Mario series called "Fire Orb"?

 

[mario123007]

If they were going to put a move called "Fire Orb" in the game, why not the actual attack in the Mario series called "Fire Orb"?

Fire Orb sounds not bad...

 

[MarioMeteor]

Fire Orb sounds not bad...

It's from Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars.

 

[mario123007]

It's from Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars.

Oh yeah, Rosalina forum has opened a new MU thread, go show your analysis there:http://smashboards.com/threads/rosalina-match-up-analysis-r2-mario.404695/#post-19312393

 

[HeroMystic]

Session 20: FLUDD Specials

F.L.U.D.D Knockback: 100f/45w

Scalding F.L.U.D.D. Damage: 1.2% Repeating (Max Damage: 10%)
Scalding F.L.U.D.D. Knockback: 16b/100g

High Pressure F.L.U.D.D Knockback: 100f/58w

The data on FLUDD is really incomplete, so I'll link three additional sources.

Custom Moves discussion
Scalding FLUDD Data
FLUDD vs HP FLUDD

Discussion on the FLUDDs can begin now.

 

[Luggy]

• F.L.U.D.D. : It's good by default, but compared to the two other variations of the move, it's the weakest option to take. While it does not charge as long as the High Pressure F.L.U.D.D, the knockback isn't really good compared to the third custom move. Against the Scalding F.L.U.D.D, the default version still is under it. The scalding version charges faster and can be used as a good option out of shield. So, in short, it's not a bad option, but it's the weakest of them all. But it's still nice to have if you want a somewhat balance between the two customs.

• Scalding F.L.U.D.D. : My favorite version to play personally. It makes up for the lack of an actual damaging Down B that Mario lost in the process between Melee and Brawl. While the range isn't great, the charging time and damage output makes up for it. It's also a good alternative as an OOS option, but I think it's not always guaranted you'll hit with it all the time. It is my favorite move to use for replacing the default version, and it helps Mario a bit.

• High Pressure F.L.U.D.D : While at the beginning of Smash 4, people looked at the move like the better version of the FLUDD, the opinion changed during the time people tested out other moves. Now, people are on a sort of 50/50 between it and the Scalding FLUDD. The move, while having more power than the default version, is pretty long to charge, and could be considered by some as not worth the try. But the gimping power makes up for the long time you'll be charging the move. Is this better than the default FLUDD ? Not really. They are on the same level. They are just here for certain situations. If you want to gimp characters easily and you have the patience to charge the move, go for the High Pressure version. If you prefer having a faster version that still gimps opponents, the default FLUDD is better. They are really the same, just more power for this one.

Again, that's only my thoughts on the FLUUDs of our plumber. Feel free to disagree and have your own opinion.

 

[MarioMeteor]

F.L.U.D.D is straight up badass. It gets you out of pressures situations by pushing the opponent back and resetting to neutral, it can push people off of ledges to force a reaction, it can gimp, and High-Pressure FLUDD can even aid Mario's recovery. HP FLUDD is essentially FLUDD on Mushrooms, more charging time, more knockback. More of the same.

 

[mario123007]

• F.L.U.D.D. : It's good by default, but compared to the two other variations of the move, it's the weakest option to take. While it does not charge as long as the High Pressure F.L.U.D.D, the knockback isn't really good compared to the third custom move. Against the Scalding F.L.U.D.D, the default version still is under it. The scalding version charges faster and can be used as a good option out of shield. So, in short, it's not a bad option, but it's the weakest of them all. But it's still nice to have if you want a somewhat balance between the two customs.

• Scalding F.L.U.D.D. : My favorite version to play personally. It makes up for the lack of an actual damaging Down B that Mario lost in the process between Melee and Brawl. While the range isn't great, the charging time and damage output makes up for it. It's also a good alternative as an OOS option, but I think it's not always guaranted you'll hit with it all the time. It is my favorite move to use for replacing the default version, and it helps Mario a bit.

• High Pressure F.L.U.D.D : While at the beginning of Smash 4, people looked at the move like the better version of the FLUDD, the opinion changed during the time people tested out other moves. Now, people are on a sort of 50/50 between it and the Scalding FLUDD. The move, while having more power than the default version, is pretty long to charge, and could be considered by some as not worth the try. But the gimping power makes up for the long time you'll be charging the move. Is this better than the default FLUDD ? Not really. They are on the same level. They are just here for certain situations. If you want to gimp characters easily and you have the patience to charge the move, go for the High Pressure version. If you prefer having a faster version that still gimps opponents, the default FLUDD is better. They are really the same, just more power for this one.

Again, that's only my thoughts on the FLUUDs of our plumber. Feel free to disagree and have your own opinion.

FLUDD is probably a move that most people don't often use. However, I personally like the Scalding FLUDD too, since it can be a move to trap your opponent and make a chance for you to punish.

 

[A2ZOMG]

FLUDD to push people off the stage is pretty useful...honestly. But it sucks for edgeguarding except against like Ness and Little Mac.

Scalding FLUDD however actually wins you neutral from midrange, and given that's one of Mario's dead zones, that's usually what you want.

HP FLUDD I think is way more useful on walkoff stages, if those are ever legal.

 

[Xeze]

I honestly prefer the default FLUDD compared to High Pressure FLUDD. With the default one I have better stage control and it allows me to set up some punishes that the HP one doesn't, due to its heavy recoil.

Between default and scalding FLUDD, for me it depends on the matchup. For instance, against Yoshi I tried both and the default suited me better. However against Falcon, Scalding FLUDD is so damn good.

 

[moofpi]

I wrote a whole spiel on default FLUDD in that one guy's FLUDD usage thread, though it applies to HPFLUDD as well.

I use it to throw off my opponents a lot of times because no ever expects fludd in the middle of a fight. I sometimes also only charge it halfway at the beginning then start charging again as I descend to the stage later on, baiting them but you can flick left or right to roll then punish or shield or shield>grab if you're facing them. Also shield>OoS up smash/up B/bair or just shield>jump away. Quite useful. They're a lot more likely to run in if you're not facing them.

In non-edge guarding situations it takes about a half charge to make a significant impact on the opponent. If you knocked them into the air or they are coming at you from the air in a way they think you can't cover, just aim and blast them with the fludd (you can always charge another), it will stop their momentum in air and if they're close enough you can usually get an Fsmash or other punish.

Also if I'm getting frustrated with an excessive roller, a projectile ledge camper, or a fast character with good spacing and baits, I'll just blast them sideways. It really helps if they were already moving in that direction. Even if it seems like a waste of a fludd or a random move the opponent is now somewhere they did not want to be and you put them there, either way it's a quick way to reshuffle the current situation.

Since Mario can get juggled bad sometimes a half charge or more fludd and DIing backward makes a good escape, especially if you've already used your second jump and don't just want to Up B and hope for the best.

For character specific things, fludd (ANY charge) repels all of Pac-Man's fruits except the key, Link/Tink's bombs, but not Peach's turnips no matter how much it seems like it should.

 

[Darrman]

I know the thread's kinda dead, but I'll just say my opinion, solely based on FG. The Flash Liquidising Ultra Dousing Device is useful for edgeguarding, especially on characters with poor recoveries. A FLUDD to Mac's face equals death for him. Villager won't be fazed, though. I don't do this often, but you can also space with this! It can push foes away, hindering their approach. All and all, it's a useful utility move that is useful in many situations. And if anyone worries about charging times, interstock exists. I do it at the match's start, but I'm just a casual with bad habits.

 

[mario123007]

I know the thread's kinda dead, but I'll just say my opinion, solely based on FG. The Flash Liquidising Ultra Dousing Device is useful for edgeguarding, especially on characters with poor recoveries. A FLUDD to Mac's face equals death for him. Villager won't be fazed, though. I don't do this often, but you can also space with this! It can push foes away, hindering their approach. All and all, it's a useful utility move that is useful in many situations. And if anyone worries about charging times, interstock exists. I do it at the match's start, but I'm just a casual with bad habits.

Yeah, this thread has been kind of dead. I think you should update this thread right now @ HeroMystic

 

[Xeze]

It's important to note that FLUDD even if not fully charged is still useful. If an opponent approaches you from the air, you can use it to slow him down (rather than pushing him away) and then punish properly. Or you can even slow down dash attacks. I've been using the regular FLUDD more than the scalding one lately and been doing great.
And I support @ mario123007 , revive the Mario boards in general.

 

[mario123007]

It's important to note that FLUDD even if not fully charged is still useful. If an opponent approaches you from the air, you can use it to slow him down (rather than pushing him away) and then punish properly. Or you can even slow down dash attacks. I've been using the regular FLUDD more than the scalding one lately and been doing great.
And I support @ mario123007 , revive the Mario boards in general.

Are there any threads that is similar to this?

 

[HeroMystic]

This thread's been down for awhile.

I'll be updating this tomorrow. Right now I'm not feeling too well.

 

[mario123007]

This thread's been down for awhile.

I'll be updating this tomorrow. Right now I'm not feeling too well.

Oh... that's okay. Take your time. Hope you get better soon.

 

[Xeze]

Get well soon HeroMystic!

 

[HeroMystic]

Session 21: Super Jump Punch Specials

Super Jump Punch
Frame 3- 6: 5%
Frame 7- 7: [1%]x3
Frame 10-11: [1%]
Frame 14-15: 3%
Max Damage: 12%

Super Jump-Acts upon Frame 3.
-No Hitbox

Explosive Punch
Frame 5- 5: 8%
Frame 15-15: 13%
Max Damage: 21%

Discussion on the Super Jump Customs can begin now.

 

[mario123007]

Session 21: Super Jump Punch Specials

Super Jump Punch
Frame 3- 6: 5%
Frame 7- 7: [1%]x3
Frame 10-11: [1%]
Frame 14-15: 3%
Max Damage: 12%

Super Jump-Acts upon Frame 3.
-No Hitbox

Explosive Punch
Frame 5- 5: 8%
Frame 15-15: 13%
Max Damage: 21%

Discussion on the Super Jump Customs can begin now.

Super Jump Punch, although it's doesn't have a good recovery, but it's always a reliable move as a combo finisher, or even more risky and superior, a punishing move when your opponent is top the near top of the screen.

Super Jump, has a better height than the original Super Jump punch, since it has no hit box, you may need to watch out of getting spiked when performing this move.

Explosive punch, one of my most favorite move. I always love using this move to punish my opponents. However, it's downside of course has to be it's terrible recovery. And trust me, you will miss a lot when doing this move, so don't keep using it.