Mario's Moveset: Breakdown & Discussion (Session 21: Super Jump Punch + Customs)

[MarioMeteor]

Is it me or did this move get worse from Brawl? I found it to be his best move in Brawl.
Nonetheless, its previous uses still apply. RAR Back air is probably Mario's best spacing option, at least, against taller characters. It can somewhat Wall of Pain and has very little landing lag, allowing for easy conversions. Back air is also Mario's best offstage option, being able to intercept most recoveries as well as just being a good edgeguarding option in general. It can KO at 150% and above, but not reliably.

 

[mario123007]

I always love to use back air for edgeguarding my opponent.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Is it me or did this move get worse from Brawl? I found it to be his best move in Brawl.
Nonetheless, its previous uses still apply. RAR Back air is probably Mario's best spacing option, at least, against taller characters. It can somewhat Wall of Pain and has very little landing lag, allowing for easy conversions. Back air is also Mario's best offstage option, being able to intercept most recoveries as well as just being a good edgeguarding option in general. It can KO at 150% and above, but not reliably.

For whatever reason, Mario's aerials just generally speaking hit higher in this game, so yeah. Short characters randomly duck under your rising aerials more.

 

[MarioMeteor]

For whatever reason, Mario's aerials just generally speaking hit higher in this game, so yeah. Short characters randomly duck under your rising aerials more.

Mario does jump higher in Smash 4, so yeah. That would do it. It's quite annoying having SH back airs miss all the time. Part of the reason why I hate the Ness, Pikachu, and Jigglypuff matchups. Ness moreso because he's just not a fun character to fight, but the other two can just weasel and jiggle their way through all of your aerials. I'm pretty sure Jigglypuff can duck under some ground attacks.

 

[KenMeister]

Mario does jump higher in Smash 4, so yeah. That would do it. It's quite annoying having SH back airs miss all the time. Part of the reason why I hate the Ness, Pikachu, and Jigglypuff matchups. Ness moreso because he's just not a fun character to fight, but the other two can just weasel and jiggle their way through all of your aerials. I'm pretty sure Jigglypuff can duck under some ground attacks.

That reason is probably the only reason I'd prefer Doc's bair for matchups like that simply for shorter short hop height alone.

 

[BSP]

Lots of stuff has been covered. I want to say at low-mid %, bair -> reverse Uair -> bair -> reverse Uair chains are quite effective.

Is it me or did this move get worse from Brawl? I found it to be his best move in Brawl.
Nonetheless, its previous uses still apply. RAR Back air is probably Mario's best spacing option, at least, against taller characters. It can somewhat Wall of Pain and has very little landing lag, allowing for easy conversions. Back air is also Mario's best offstage option, being able to intercept most recoveries as well as just being a good edgeguarding option in general. It can KO at 150% and above, but not reliably.

Outside of damage nerf, which were pretty universal, I think it's fine.

Yeah, I think Mario should have his back turned to the opponent when he goes to edgeguard. Bair is quick and is fast enough to cover ADs, and a clean one offstage usually means the stock.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I think it has more ending lag, come to think of it. I seem to have a harder time performing back air walls in this game.

 

[Xeze]

You can use b-air right after a ledge trump, which is neat. Depending on damage, you might get two in a row.

 

[HeroMystic]

Session 18: Forward Air

Forward Air(Sour) Frames: f16
Forward Air(Sour) Damage: 12%

Forward Air(Spike) Frames: f17-f20
Forward Air(Spike) Damage: 14%

Forward Air(Weak) Frames: f21
Forward Air(Weak) Damage: 10%

Discussion on The Kobe can begin now.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Mystic, what is this "forward air" you speak of? There is only the Kobe.
The Kobe can be comboed into from an up air or a neutral air if cancelled on a platform like Smashville's. The Kobe starts spiking at around 30%, depending on weight. It is also worth noting that the Kobe is one of Mario's most damaging moves. Yata.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

I appreciate how you can use it as a KO move, and it can also be a decent edge-guarding move. I personally do use it for edge-guarding a little, but not too much. I don't use it to guard the ledge as much as B-Air, N-Air, or the cape. It's because the hitbox is pretty small. It's so rewarding when it hits, but it can be tricky to land at times if not timed correctly. Decent move, but not the best.

 

[DeliciousDarren]

This move is nasty. I almost never use it while on stage though.

Off stage, Mario's recovery is good enough where he doesn't even need to jump to land a F-air and still make it back to the stage. Most people expect the opponent to jump before spiking, so this can potentially be a surprising kill move. F-air can quickly end games against less skilled individuals; however, it can be difficult to land on those that are practiced against Mario. Despite being difficult to land, the move still puts fear into the hearts of others and you can catch their air dodge with a neutral air when they are expecting the spike. This move has the power to drop massive amounts of dopamine into your body.

 

[HeroMystic]

This is ironically one of the worst moves in our moveset, however for Mario this translates to one of the "least good".

It's a pretty bad move to use during neutral. It's nice to intercept opponents with but you get way more bang for your buck with other aerials, particularly B-air.

That said, F-air is at it's best in Advantage. It's a strong combo finisher off of D-air and can be combo'd into off of falling U-air. This also auto-cancels off a full hop, so it's actually pretty safe to use as an edgeguard as you can immediately follow-up with it as soon as you land. F-air into a secondary read of F-Smash is very common and worth using as well.

We all know how powerful it is as a hard read, and I find this to be very valuable. This is generally a moderate risk - highest reward type of a move. It's not bad to throw out every once in awhile, but you'll want to use more consistent moves in Mario's kit for the majority of sets.

Also worth noting this can be used as an anti-edgeguard move.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Come to think of it, this probably is our worst move.

 

[meleebrawler]

Come to think of it, this probably is our worst move.

Nah, that'd be Fire Orb.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Nah, that'd be Fire Orb.

Debatable.

 

[HeroMystic]

Come to think of it, this probably is our worst move.

F-tilt is actually bad.

 

[MarioMeteor]

F-tilt is actually bad.

True, but it has various uses. The Kobe, on the other hand, has one use and one use only: to spike.

 

[meleebrawler]

F-tilt is actually bad.

Ehhhh... it's true that you never really want to go for ftilt in most scenarios nor does it do anything special,
but on the other hand it's not like you're likely to die for using it.

Fire Orb is his laggiest move by far (it makes fair look like a freakin' speed demon), and the damage it does
is simply not worth the trouble. It is more likely to get Mario killed than any other move he has. And that's terrible.

Fair may be a situational move, but when you do need it or pull it off, it works well. You'll only wish it wasn't
forward to make it less likely to be pressed by accident.

 

[Luggy]

The Fair is more like a "High risk, High Reward" type of move.

Doing it on the neutral is not really useful and puts the player more in danger than in a good situation. Doing it in the air for edgeguarding purposes and you'll have a high reward if it hits. It's of course not the best move of Mario, but it's still usable.

It's really a situational move, but it's here to make Mario even more balanced and giving him all the tools of the game for new players to begin. It's the basic spike : laggy, risky but worth the try. At least, it kills when you want it to kill. So you know, it's still an okay move. Far from the best, but not bad in a way.

That's only my opinion though, so feel free to disagree.

 

[mario123007]

Mystic, what is this "forward air" you speak of? There is only the Kobe.
The Kobe can be comboed into from an up air or a neutral air if cancelled on a platform like Smashville's. The Kobe starts spiking at around 30%, depending on weight. It is also worth noting that the Kobe is one of Mario's most damaging moves. Yata.

Um... The Kobe? Is that the nickname for forward air?
It is a most damaging move indeed, but is also requires a great timing, and a bit of risk. I found myself have a hard time precisely aim my opponent with forward air...

 

[AfroGamerNinja]

Can I get a recap of the other discussions, having only joined recently and all, please?

 

[Darrman]

Ah, the fair. High risk, but oh so high reward. It's slow and hard to land, but if you can land it, they're dead. If they somehow live, they'll still take a nice 14%, one of Mario's strongest moves. Frame 17 hurts, though, and it's obvious as day if you use it. I mainly edgeguard or hunt for off-stage kills, and never use it on stage. So slow!

 

[DeliciousDarren]

Can I get a recap of the other discussions, having only joined recently and all, please?

Jab
Dash Attack
Down Tilt
Up Tilt
Forward Tilt
Down Smash
Up Smash
Forward Smash
Grab & Pummel
Down Throw
Up Throw
Forward Throw
Back Throw
Neutral Air
Up Air
Down Air
Back Air
Forward Air

Edit: @ HeroMystic I would recommend inputting a hyperlink set like this at the beginning of the thread for those who have similar questions.

 

[HeroMystic]

Question for everyone.

Specials are up next, and customs will be included. Would you like to do each of them one by one, or would like to group them together? (As in Fireball, Fast Fireball, and Fire Orb would be discussed in one whole session).

 

[Luggy]

It would be better to group them, since we won't talk about some moves a lot, like the Fire Orb. Plus, it will make the discussions faster.

Have you finished talking about the Fair ? If it is, then we should go directly to the special moves, starting with the Fire Ball.

 

[mario123007]

Question for everyone.

Specials are up next, and customs will be included. Would you like to do each of them one by one, or would like to group them together? (As in Fireball, Fast Fireball, and Fire Orb would be discussed in one whole session).

Group them together.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I'm actually going to go head and say seperate them, for the sake of organization. It'd get confusing fast to go from Fireball to F. Fireball and such in the same discussion.

Um... The Kobe? Is that the nickname for forward air?
It is a most damaging move indeed, but is also requires a great timing, and a bit of risk. I found myself have a hard time precisely aim my opponent with forward air...

Yes, the Kobe is indeed the nickname. It stems from Kobe Bryant, a basketball player. And a damn good one at that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario's F-air is probably his most annoying weakness ever, because any time you're ever in the disadvantage state, your landing and recovery options are predictable.

That being said, this move honestly should be used more for raw punishes. Does a solid 14% by itself, and the meteor puts people either in position to be comboed or in awkward situations where they might panic and leave themselves open to being KOed.

 

[DeliciousDarren]

That being said, this move honestly should be used more for raw punishes. Does a solid 14% by itself, and the meteor puts people either in position to be comboed or in awkward situations where they might panic and leave themselves open to being KOed.

That's an interesting idea. Is there any footage of something like this?

 

[mario123007]

I'm actually going to go head and say seperate them, for the sake of organization. It'd get confusing fast to go from Fireball to F. Fireball and such in the same discussion.




Yes, the Kobe is indeed the nickname. It stems from Kobe Bryant, a basketball player. And a damn good one at that.

I think together is more better so you can compare them easily.

I know, Kobe Bryant is a basketball player from Los Angeles Lakers, who is also one of my most favorite basketball player Jeremy Lin's teammate, it's sad they didn't really get along. Hope they do better next time...

Mario's F-air is probably his most annoying weakness ever, because any time you're ever in the disadvantage state, your landing and recovery options are predictable.

That being said, this move honestly should be used more for raw punishes. Does a solid 14% by itself, and the meteor puts people either in position to be comboed or in awkward situations where they might panic and leave themselves open to being KOed.

You can't say it's his weakness ( His only weakness is just "too balanced") It is a risky but really a rewarding move if you aim your opponent right. This move I agree, only best to meteor Smash your opponent's. But saying Mario's The Kobe move is his "weakness" just doesn't feel right. It's just a move you shouldn't use too often.
And about your "disadvantage state", it's obvious that you have to be more defensive and care in that kind of situation.(If I had get your meaning right).

 

[Xeze]

Question for everyone.

Specials are up next, and customs will be included. Would you like to do each of them one by one, or would like to group them together? (As in Fireball, Fast Fireball, and Fire Orb would be discussed in one whole session).

I'd say group them together.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think together is more better so you can compare them easily.

I know, Kobe Bryant is a basketball player from Los Angeles Lakers, who is also one of my most favorite basketball player Jeremy Lin's teammate, it's sad they didn't really get along. Hope they do better next time...

You can't say it's his weakness ( His only weakness is just "too balanced") It is a risky but really a rewarding move if you aim your opponent right. This move I agree, only best to meteor Smash your opponent's. But saying Mario's The Kobe move is his "weakness" just doesn't feel right. It's just a move you shouldn't use too often.
And about your "disadvantage state", it's obvious that you have to be more defensive and care in that kind of situation.(If I had get your meaning right).

When you are someone like Diddy or Ness, heck even Ganon at times, and you have a F-air that your opponent has to respect, it's often a lot harder to punish your landing or recovery options.

Mario having a crappy F-air sucks because you can't always face backwards when you take a hit, meaning in the disadvantage state, you basically are forced to airdodge almost all the time. And sometimes your opponent doesn't even care about that either.

 

[mario123007]

When you are someone like Diddy or Ness, heck even Ganon at times, and you have a F-air that your opponent has to respect, it's often a lot harder to punish your landing or recovery options.

Mario having a crappy F-air sucks because you can't always face backwards when you take a hit, meaning in the disadvantage state, you basically are forced to airdodge almost all the time. And sometimes your opponent doesn't even care about that either.

Urgh, I have nothing to say about Diddy, but Ness and Ganondorf... I think you can have other ways to punish by avoiding their F-airs.

Uh.. can't you? I mean, when you are at high percentage, it obvious that you can have a chance to face backwards... maybe Mario's cape can help?

 

[HeroMystic]

Urgh, I have nothing to say about Diddy, but Ness and Ganondorf... I think you can have other ways to punish by avoiding their F-airs.

The fact you have to avoid them proves A2Z's point.

 

[mario123007]

The fact you have to avoid them proves A2Z's point.

Don't you have to avoid your opponent's F-airs? i mean, you have to avoid attacks obviously. But actually, I kind of messed up right there. I thought the f-air he metntioned is Diddy's, Ness', and Ganon's f-air... Try to correct me out.

 

[meleebrawler]

Don't you have to avoid your opponent's F-airs? i mean, you have to avoid attacks obviously. But actually, I kind of messed up right there. I thought the f-air he metntioned is Diddy's, Ness', and Ganon's f-air... Try to correct me out.

Think what they're trying to say is that unlike someone like Luigi, who can easily chop people who try to approach
him from the front in the air, Mario has to avoid pressing forward in the air when engaging in aerial footsies lest
he leave himself open.

Using Mario's mobility is key to avoiding this kind of scenario as often as possible.

 

[KenMeister]

Urgh, I have nothing to say about Diddy, but Ness and Ganondorf... I think you can have other ways to punish by avoiding their F-airs.

Uh.. can't you? I mean, when you are at high percentage, it obvious that you can have a chance to face backwards... maybe Mario's cape can help?

Marios cape is ok but like fair it has a bit of startup so it'd require a good read.

 

[mario123007]

Think what they're trying to say is that unlike someone like Luigi, who can easily chop people who try to approach
him from the front in the air, Mario has to avoid pressing forward in the air when engaging in aerial footsies lest
he leave himself open.

Yeah... I often accidentally press F-air sometimes and got punished, or you can say I often try to avoid doing Fairs when at air. I know F-air is really risky move to use if you aren't using it to meteor Smash your opponents. And Luigi's chop is really a good air combo.

Marios cape is ok but like fair it has a bit of startup so it'd require a good read.

It's really a devastating move if you use f-air/The Kobe to meteor smash your opponent, but yeah I don't really recommend you to use it on stage.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I usually use up air or Nair to halt frontal approaches. I've been trying to find more uses for the Kobe, and I can testify that it actually is a somewhat decent punish tool. If anything, you have the element of surprise on your side, because no one actually expects you to use the Kobe onstage.