Mario vs. Dr. Mario?

[A2ZOMG]

Umm, it's my OPINION. I wasn't stating as fact, as I was just giving my views and points. You think that this is nonsense because of evidence, but maybe my experiences were different. We are not all the same, and maybe I use Mario in a way that makes him better for my playstyle over Doc. You can't tell me that i'm wrong because it is merely my opinion.

Good, now that you realize that we ALL have different experiences, don't try to force your opinion like it's fact. Actually back it with evidence.

And you were trying to pass it as fact with statements like "Mario is clearly the better pick" and that Doc is a "****ty clone".

 

[legocrashbro]

You still persist with the whole "i make force my opinions as facts thing" then give me valid proof, because I just read over everything, and it seems you're forcing things down on me with evidence and your opinion.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doctor Tornado and Dair. From my accounts.

Ah, okay, now I have a basis to provide polite and (ideally) helpful insight.

Doc Nado sucks as a recovery move honestly, well, it has commendable horizontal distance and helps his horizontal recovery but his vertical recovery is terrible so...yeah. What Doctor Tornado's actual use is, funny enough, unlike any other Smash game, it is an offensive move. As strange as this was to me, Doctor Tornado actually beats a LOT of moves it probably shouldn't (Sonic's spindash wut, among other things, I've seen it flat out beat Charizard's Up+B from below)

Dair is an interesting case, it's not a particularly good move but its main niche is to bop spotdodges or a roll if you place it right since it has a hitbox upon landing. It's not incredibly good BUT I think it works better for Doc than it does for Mario as it is definitely more of a defensive tool. By this I mean if Doc had Mario's Dair it would probably be worse with him due to his lower jump and worse air mobility not being able to squeeze the most use out of it.

Now that we're back to square one and I know what you're talking about, that's my insight.

I prefer Doc due to his heavier physics and better offensive capabilities once he's in CQC range. I feel like he can do that a bit better than Mario (Killing at lower percents makes Doc's damage sufficient), but again, that's my own opinion. HOWEVER I believe Mario goes in and out a lot better than Doc and struggles less to get inside the enemy's range, but I feel Mario's offensive traits are either too difficult for me or just more difficult to grasp.

Next time, please elaborate on stuff because the statement of "useless moves" looked incredibly blanket and I thought you were talking about his entire moveset. The vibe I got from that entire post was that "Doc is trash just pick Mario" and...well, it kind of sucks to even get that kind of vibe. I mean I think I got it more from the "Why play a ****ty clone honestly" as you say that to the guy with the Dr. Mario main icon under his avatar .

 

[legocrashbro]

I'm also glad that you atleast understand that i'm not forcing my opinion on others.

I do agree with you with the Tornado, but it still can interrupted very easily so it's not always great move to go with. i see it more as a spacing option.

Finally, the Dair just from my accounts, terrible for combos. i see it as a defensive moves aswell, but the only thing it lacks is less ending lag. That move takes a couple of frames before allowing you to move again.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Interestingly I think the lag on doc's Dair is only bad if you whiff, since despite the lag there is a hitbox on the landing for a few frames (super weird)

 

[legocrashbro]

This may be off topic, but on the subject of hitboxes, have you noticed in smash 4, that Ness's are completely broken? They seem to hit when they shouldn't and his moves launch at stupid percentages and directions.

 

[HeroMystic]

There's a reason why I said at the beginning of this thread that Doc is "awkward". It literally is because Doc's properties are quite different from Mario's.

Mario's playstyle relies heavily on his movement, weaving in and out, pressing his advantage as much as possible. Doc is nothing like this. His short hops are lesser, his aerials have slightly more lag to them, and his pills are much better for zoning. Doc's D-air shares the same purpose of Mario's D-air for applying shield pressure and punishing rolls, but Doc can't use it as freely as Mario's due to the lesser hitbox and the fact it seems them at a horizontal angle. They don't have the same follow-ups.

Doc's Tornado is also very good for it's defensive properties. It beats a lot of stuff and I can attribute that from experience.

It's like comparing Ryu and Ken. Their animations are the same and you could call Ken (or Akuma) a clone of Ryu, but their properties are so different that they aren't played in a similar manner at all.

The reason why you were blasted for a moment there is because you called Doc a ****ty clone, then went on to say "that's my opinion". To many, that is simply a way of backing out of your argument after you've made such a strong blanket statement.

 

[TTTTTsd]

ACTUALLY a really cool fact about Mario's Dair is that it can hit a lot of people when shorthopped, even up to the last hit if you do it properly, which, depending on which fist hits and where they're launched, you can followup with literally any aerial you want.

Short hop Dair, no fastfall, jump right as Mario's fist hits and you can sweetspot a Fair, hit a Back Air.

Works better on tall chars but I've had it work on Luigi, Sonic, it's just more precise on average height chars, impossible on shorties.

This is fairly big cause Fair takes the damage up to like 20% which is around optimal for Utilt shenanigans and other things.

 

[legocrashbro]

There's a reason why I said at the beginning of this thread that Doc is "awkward". It literally is because Doc's properties are quite different from Mario's.

Mario's playstyle relies heavily on his movement, weaving in and out, pressing his advantage as much as possible. Doc is nothing like this. His short hops are lesser, his aerials have slightly more lag to them, and his pills are much better for zoning. Doc's D-air shares the same purpose of Mario's D-air for applying shield pressure and punishing rolls, but Doc can't use it as freely as Mario's due to the lesser hitbox and the fact it seems them at a horizontal angle. They don't have the same follow-ups.

Doc's Tornado is also very good for it's defensive properties. It beats a lot of stuff and I can attribute that from experience.

It's like comparing Ryu and Ken. Their animations are the same and you could call Ken (or Akuma) a clone of Ryu, but their properties are so different that they aren't played in a similar manner at all.

The reason why you were blasted for a moment there is because you called Doc a ****ty clone, then went on to say "that's my opinion". To many, that is simply a way of backing out of your argument after you've made such a strong blanket statement.

I see my error in my posts. I only said he's a ****ty clone because I was going off of my experiences playing as him. I should I have mentioned it before instead of leaving it vague. I didn't realize how quickly it could spiral out of control.

 

[A2ZOMG]

For the record, it is not clear that Mario is better than Doc. Do a quick check on Mario's damage per hit. Realize that it's actually very difficult for Mario to get combos longer than two hits, like in the video I showed you. Understand that Mario's overall reward is actually pretty bad.

Notice that Doc's B-air does 14%. (Mario's does 10.5%) In fact just notice that most things Doc does do more damage than Mario's, and that his D-throw setups are less percent dependent than Mario's and more damaging, meaning even if Doc needed to make reads to make his strings work, the risk/reward far favors him better.

Then realize for a moment that Doc's recovery becomes better than Mario's with custom Tornado, and think for a moment what this means for Doc's edgeguarding options. Y'know, with that 14% B-air that actually kills people.

If you wanted to be super safe, you could have said "MAYBE IT'S JUST ME" or something silly like that so that we know that we have to pick up after your lack of research before approaching the discussion.

And I'm a bit short-tempered with most people on the topic of Mario, because he's a character that needs buffs. You realize that misinformation is infuriating to deal with now, right?

 

[legocrashbro]

ACTUALLY a really cool fact about Mario's Dair is that it can hit a lot of people when shorthopped, even up to the last hit if you do it properly, which, depending on which fist hits and where they're launched, you can followup with literally any aerial you want.

Short hop Dair, no fastfall, jump right as Mario's fist hits and you can sweetspot a Fair, hit a Back Air.

Works better on tall chars but I've had it work on Luigi, Sonic, it's just more precise on average height chars, impossible on shorties.

I have tried that before, but when I use the Dair like that, I use it for spacing. My real thing I do is Nair, B-throw, dash attack, and Uairs and Bairs. It may be enviable for some, but i have had some pretty impressive results.

 

[legocrashbro]

I agree with you, but I believe that the smash 4 build of him, is the best version of Mario. And, what misinformation? I gave valid points. Sure, I was bashing Doc, but I had reasons and examples on why Mario was better. atleast, he's better for me anyway...

 

[A2ZOMG]

He's practically the same character from Brawl in this game, with nerfed Cape stalling, and generally lower damage per hit. He was more nerfed than buffed, realistically. And he wasn't considered good in Brawl (I could argue all day that Brawl Mario was underrated if you ignore the joke balance issues from characters like MK and ICs).

The biggest buffs to Mario are FLUDD and the lack of a Melee/Brawl top tier invalidating everyone, but this is actually the weakest the character has been overall.

 

[legocrashbro]

He was bad in brawl, but from my experience of playing him since the 64 days, he has been improved greatly, maybe not as much as I hoped, but hes good enough for him to a great character overall.

 

[BSP]

- Better kill potential than Mario in both the air AND the ground (His Fair can kill at high %s but much like Mario's it's not that great)
- A better projectile for camping and interrupts plus his customs allow him to have the fast fireball too, even better!

Both can combo into Fair (it looks like a combo anyway), but at least Doc KOs with his.

Also, you probably knew this, but Doc's pills also can't be absorbed by Ness' PSI magnet, so Doc can spam away in that MU. No FLUDD to mess with PK thunder though.

I still see Mario at Mid tier at best. I hope the pros back up their words and show us this top 7 potential.

 

[TTTTTsd]

yeah Ness can't absorb Megavitamins. I thought that was kind of funny.

 

[A2ZOMG]

yeah Ness can't absorb Megavitamins. I thought that was kind of funny.

I'm guessing that's completely intentional, given we have Namco and their superior balance insight on this game. Imagine if Doc couldn't spam Pills against Ness. Oh, the horrors.

 

[HeroMystic]

ACTUALLY a really cool fact about Mario's Dair is that it can hit a lot of people when shorthopped, even up to the last hit if you do it properly, which, depending on which fist hits and where they're launched, you can followup with literally any aerial you want.

Short hop Dair, no fastfall, jump right as Mario's fist hits and you can sweetspot a Fair, hit a Back Air.

Works better on tall chars but I've had it work on Luigi, Sonic, it's just more precise on average height chars, impossible on shorties.

This is fairly big cause Fair takes the damage up to like 20% which is around optimal for Utilt shenanigans and other things.

Holy ****.

D-air > F-air is a true combo.

Holy ****.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Holy ****.

D-air > F-air is a true combo.

Holy ****.

Yes, yes it is. Dair goes into literally any aerial period. I discovered this a month or so ago but never found out how to implement it, but since SH Dair can hit standing people of average height :3

 

[warionumbah2]

TTTTTsd stay based, dished out too many likes on your posts.

Default Dr Mario is superior but Custom blows Mario out of the water its kind of funny that he's the only clone in the game that's better than their original.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I always preach the Doc truth. Mario and Doc are way too different for me to directly compare but I def. enjoy Doc a lot more LOL.

 

[Coolwhip]

I am getting sick & tried of hearing who's the better character....*Walks away*

 

[TTTTTsd]

I am getting sick & tried of hearing who's the better character....*Walks away*

Amen brother. Let's embrace their differences and work with them the proper way. As different characters entirely.

 

[BSP]

Holy ****.

D-air > F-air is a true combo.

Holy ****.

Yes, yes it is. Dair goes into literally any aerial period. I discovered this a month or so ago but never found out how to implement it, but since SH Dair can hit standing people of average height :3

Hmmm...I would always go for Bair or Uair off of a Mario Tornado. I never would've imagined that Fair could combo from it.

So that's 24% if all of the Mario Tornado hits and the Fair sweetspots. How long does this work?

I do believe grounded Sheik can hold down to dodge tornado's final hit though.

Got to play some Wii U and Dair -> Fair is most definitely legit and it feels great. Guess I have to shut up about not having anything at 0% anymore.

 

[Coolwhip]

What are the damage comparisons between the two? Like jab canceling for starters: Jab > Jab > F-tilt and Jab > Jab > D-smash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPmwLkdqbI0

 

[MP8]

Doctors make more money than plumbers so...

Jk, Mario is better.

 

[M@v]

I feel the only advantage normal Mario has on Doc is better mobility and recovery. I think Doc's moveset, combos, and kill power are much better as a whole.

....Mario may still be better though, because the mobility difference is THAT big of a deal. Doc is basically helpless vs mobile characters he can't catch, because pills can only do so much vs characters like that. Wario is a great example. Where does doc even start in trying to catch wario, or camp/rack up damage on him with pills? Mario can keep up with him at least.

 

[Kisatamura]

Mobility-wise, Doc does struggle in regards to Mario who has an easier time going aggro and chasing down opponents. I mean, the best Doc can do is throw a pill to catch an opponent whereas Mario is fast enough to punish/catch up to fast characters. Still, I wish Mario had Doc's bair, since Mario's bair can't kill above 100 percent, and Doc's is really good.

But like Falco and Fox in Melee, these two should be close enough to where it's essentially 50/50.

 

[Mrwhatzitooya]

I originally thought I'd like the Doc better in Smash4, but after playing both for a while, Mario is my favourite. Power is good and all , but I like a bit more speed Doc's too slow! Plus with Mario's combo game, it's hard not to love him!

 

[legocrashbro]

I originally thought I'd like the Doc better in Smash4, but after playing both for a while, Mario is my favourite. Power is good and all , but I like a bit more speed Doc's too slow! Plus with Mario's combo game, it's hard not to love him!

Agreed.

 

[Watulio]

I started using mario since 2 weeks ago and he's amazing. I love meteor smashing people with his fair. The only thing I don't use is FLUDD, it's too situational.

Dr. Mario has his nice tornado rather than flood, but well, his recovery is horrible, even with the tornado. I like using his fair too though, it deals like 15 damage but has insanse knockback, letting me kill people at 90% and up, but if you try doing it when they recover you might not recover yourself and if you try to fair someone who's on the ground they might shield which leaves you very vulnerable to a grab.

Oh and mario can set up some nasty stuff with his fireball, which travels close to the ground (You can jump, throw a fireball, see if it lands and if it does, land and do either your jab combo or if you time it just right, your dsmash.) Doc Mario's Pill is laughable, it will jump wait too high to be reliable.

Overall I prefer Mario. His superior mobility and his early finishing meteor smash just make him the superior choice.

 

[UltimateXsniper]

It's hard for me to choose. I honestly like them both equally. I can make Doc's recovery work especially on down B. There was many times where I mashed the tornado move to help save my life. I honestly prefer that than using Mario's cape and then up B.

Mario seems faster and I do like pulling off combos but I also like Doc's variety of combos as well and I do like a little more power which Doc brings on the table.

Mario does have a meteor smash which I can get kills at early percentages, Doc may not have a meteor smash but it gives out more knockback than it does when Mario fails to meteor smash.

And about fludd, I honestly don't use it much. I prefer just meteor smashing them down the stage instead or at least use a move to knock them further out the stage where they won't be able to recover back.

As for both of their dair, I prefer Doc's. I can really get into it rather than Mario's dair. I feel like Mario's dair doesn't do its justice and I feel more vulnerable doing so (mostly because he doesn't necessarily aim to attack downward while doc spirals in).

Their capes are very similar but it's a no brainer that Mario's cape is better mostly because it can be used as a recovery option. Doc's cape doesn't give you the slightest help on recovery (it does barely help at all on melee).

I can go on about their differences but I think I'll stop there. I like the 2 and I can't choose which is better. Both have advantages and disadvantages. It depends on what you are looking forward to.

 

[Dirty Duck]

I personally preferred how Doc looked and so I kept playing as him on For Glory, but every so often I'd play as Mario just to mix things up and found when I did I won more often. Initially I didn't realise how useful FLUDD is, I thought it was kind of worthless and much preferred Doc's downB. Once I got to grips with FLUDD I started using Mario more, and when I found out Doc has no meteor smash with his fair I switched to Mario fully. I just thought I was having trouble pulling off the meteor with Doc so when I found out he just can't do it I was a bit bitter.

So yeah, Mario. In his light blue alt, to be specific

 

[Marcus Gray]

I thought I would like the Doc more but Mario's abilities proved more useful to me. His Up-special goes wayy higher and I've been getting better with F.L.U.D.D. The Doc is definitely stronger though.

 

[Flameleon]

-I like Doc's fight stance animations more than Marios haha. Someone with great spacing knowledge and mindgames would use Doc to a high lvl, and having ko power is a great deal, since, in this game, you win by ko's, sure, u cant timeout ppl, but Mario can't really camp and timeout. Great discussion overall...-