Mario vs. Dr. Mario?

[SuperLuigi9624]

Disregarding tiers, I'm looking more for your personal preference whether y'all like Mario or Doc better. I thought I would like Doc more, considering he hits harder, but I've actually been having second thoughts with Mario. Considering his combo game is now awesome with less knockback on his moves like down throw that can go into down smash, and his down smash was also made to just be fantastic, and also, it looks like FLUDD's knockback has changed a little to be better, and the cape works wonders. They nerfed Doc's cape to make it so that he doesn't get the jump, and without the meteor smash it's basically worthless to try to finish someone who's coming back. I dunno, I prefer Mario, I think he's a whole lot more fun to play, but I wanna hear you all's opinions.

 

[Sgtxam]

I liked dr mario in melee but I like Mario better now. He is faster, more combo heavy, and has a better recovery. Dr Mario is too slow (), and his recovery is pitiful. That's just how I feel though.

 

[Gidy]

Dr. Mario's combos are more innovative than Mario's basic Utilt/UpAir combos. You can be really creative with Doc. Regarding his recovery, I feel like it is bad but it will get better with the Wii U version with the better ability to mash buttons. Another thing Mario lacks is kill power. You have to make sure your off stage game is on point for kills or else your opponent will always live to 140+ percent.

But with the offstage play crucial in this game, I prefer Mario. Nothing is more satisfying than the God Hand Fair

 

[HeroMystic]

I found Doc to be an awkward character to play with, and still do for the time being.

Essentially, nothing that works for Mario works with Doc, and his recovery is sub-par. However he gets more damage per hit, causing his punishing factor to be stronger than Mario's. Doc also has better footsies than Mario.

That said, I find Mario to be preferable, especially with customs. Despite this, I really look forward to seeing what the Doc mains do with the character because he's largely unexplored.

 

[BSP]

Basically what HeroMystic said, and I want to add that I highly value FLUDD as an option and hate to not have it. Doc's lower mobility frustrates me to no end as well.

That being said, they probably will be pretty close to each other once the tier lists come out.

 

[TheGreatBrawler]

Used to like Doctor Mario in Melee more then I prefer Mario for the current games because I have better use of his FLUDD now, and I don't use Doctor Mario's down b much at all... I don't really feel like it.

 

[SuperLuigi9624]

I found Doc to be an awkward character to play with, and still do for the time being.

Essentially, nothing that works for Mario works with Doc, and his recovery is sub-par. However he gets more damage per hit, causing his punishing factor to be stronger than Mario's. Doc also has better footsies than Mario.

That said, I find Mario to be preferable, especially with customs. Despite this, I really look forward to seeing what the Doc mains do with the character because he's largely unexplored.

Yeah, I prefer Mario, and I do want to see what Doc mains find out what works.

Basically what HeroMystic said... ...That being said, they probably will be pretty close to each other once the tier lists come out.

Yeah. I wonder how much the tier lists are gonna differ between both versions. They're supposed to have extremely similar physics, but those small differences might flip it on it's head entirely.

 

[Ravioko]

Doc is simply too slow for my tastes, and his recovery is terrivle :/

 

[Maruigi]

Doc feels slow but I've started to like him more and more each time I play him. His kill %'s compared to Mario feel just so much easier to achieve and I might be mistaken but Dr Mario's Nair always seems to land about 10% damage for me. And that's a great approach tool for Mario's basic attacks.

Mario definitely controls the air a lot better and his ledge game is a lot better but Doc feels better on the ground and once you learn how to put small strings together he can kill people relatively fast.

Doc has trouble recovering though, and his Cape just isn't as good, his B-up has the chance to kill people off the edge of the map by bouncing them against the stage, assuming people don't tech it. It's gotten me some kills that I wouldn't have gotten on Mario but it's more of a luck thing if the opponent puts themselves in position for it.

Mario's Kill %'s are just ridiculous if you can't spike or Gimp, it takes so long to get off a regular kill without being able to read your opponent like a children's book. Mario's Fludd and Cape are pretty important to his kit but I never find myself the time to get a good Fludd charge against faster characters unless I'm already winning hard and I feel like Fludd is good but you can find yourself charging it when you could have gotten a kill.

I think I still prefer Mario but I don't dislike Doc anymore, he fills his Niche for fighting characters that Mario struggles to kill normally with spikes/gimps. While retaining the same moveset(mostly.) but a different playstyle.

 

[HeroMystic]

Far as kill moves go, all most of my kills with Mario has come from U-Smash. F-Smash only comes from hard reads.

I'm starting to think F-Smash should be used for damage instead of killing.

 

[OmegaSorin]

I'm along the lines of @ HeroMystic in this one, Most of my kills with both Doc and Mario are with u-Smash, or D-Smash. Almost all the times i try to F-Smash, the attack is read and avoided.

 

[warionumbah2]

I can honestly say after the update that Doc is better, his recovery improved slightly as well as players finally realizing that he has the ability to wall jump thus improving his recovery.

His combo game is solid and he can reset better than Mario, Down Throw into Uair then FF into shield opponent has 3 options after the uair. Go for aerial attack on me, air dodge(dunno why people do that but they do), move away.

Because of this Doc is in the advantage, first option can easily be shield grabbed AUTO RESET bam so easy and that's a solid 14% each time you do that. Option 2 is the same as one but 3 you'll need to predict where your opponent go then dash attack or reset.

Once you breach 80% he can kill with a sweetspot F-Smash or send characters so low off the stage with D-Smash they won't come back maybe you'll need to Bair then further but its a solid kill.

Mario has poor damage output and crappy kill moves he relies on that F-Smash SP and gimps. I see people like Nani combo people in tournaments but then i gaze at the percentage and the opponents is low as heck. Down throw - Utilt can be avoided sometimes but Doc's Down throw to Uair is almost guaranteed it depends on your speed.

And the Wii U version benefits his rapid B mashing recovery tornado.

Speed isn't a problem, Ganon is slow yet he would whoop Mario's ass back to his plumbing shop.

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario has poor damage output and crappy kill moves he relies on that F-Smash SP and gimps. I see people like Nani combo people in tournaments but then i gaze at the percentage and the opponents is low as heck. Down throw - Utilt can be avoided sometimes but Doc's Down throw to Uair is almost guaranteed it depends on your speed.

Outside of the reliance on F-Smash, all of this I can agree with, which is why we Mario mains should look into using moves that are not D-throw and U-tilt and U-air. All of these can lead into attack strings but they're all seriously weak. B-air, F-throw, B-throw, F-Smash, Up-B and D-air are all moves that we should use for damage.

 

[BSP]

Will cosign all comments on Mario's difficulty KO'ing. It's a real problem, especially with rage. Same thing with his damage output. The combos look nice, but the opponent can catch up in 2-3 hits, and most likely KO earlier than Mario can.

As for Doc being better right now, IDK. Possibly.

 

[HeroMystic]

Doc probably is better.

The more I play this game, the more I realize how insanely weak Mario's damage-per-hit is. It's insane that Mario can land a 10-hit attack string but that only adds up to ~50%, while literally everyone else in the game can reach that amount without putting themselves in so much risk that Mario has to. F-Smash is terrible compared to how it was in Brawl (RIP Stutter Step), and Mario has no reliable kill option except D-air to Up-B on a high platform on Battlefield. U-Smash has to be relied on as a punisher, and F-Smash has to be a hard read. D-Smash is used if you're desperate.

But that's not what makes this such a dilemma. The reason why this hurts Mario so badly is because the competition relies heavily on footsies, and combos are just surplus. Doc is just straight up better at Footsies, and even if he isn't doing 10-hit attack strings, he doesn't need them because his KO power is supreme. Mario has to work way too hard to get damage, and then has to work even harder to get a KO.

Edgeguarding and gimping are his only real saving graces, but if I'm frank, his edgeguarding is mediocre at best while his gimping is slightly above average thanks to Cape and FLUDD.

I'm starting to realize what A2ZOMG has been saying all along.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Doc's lack of mobility, not having FLUDD, and worse recovery on default settings are pretty crippling though, meaning he legitimately gets walled out and killed too easily in several matchups. With customs though, he's probably overall better than Mario because of super deep edgeguards with his way superior B-air.

It's especially problematic that Mario's damage per hit is really low when his combos are not frame tight except at very specific percent ranges. Vector removal helps a fair bit, but what we really need is just flat out better frame data honestly. Mario's midrange options are pitiful generally speaking, so his low percent combo and pressure game deserves to be very consistent.

But yeah like...Brawl Mario overall did more damage in fewer reads, had better survivability, and KO confirms that weren't totally gimmicky with Jab cancels. Too bad we don't have Brawl Mario ported directly to this game. He would be really strong, like say comparable to Yoshi. I mean seriously, half the reason Yoshi is so good is almost purely damage per hit. Make Mario's damage per hit not unreasonably low, we win that matchup again like we always did by design. Brawl Mario in this game would still have hard matchups against Falco, Marth, Diddy, Sheik, and Duck Hunt. But my point stands, damage per hit is really huge in this game.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Definitely saying Mario. He's more well-rounded. And while Dr. Mario does have what Mario lacks, that is KO power, Mario's ain't nothing to laugh at either. Up smash just says **** you to anyone who wants to jump at you and the hitbox is huge. If you punish a roll with down smash, that kills at like 110. And Doc's recovery is just disgusting. Probably one of the worst in the game, up their with Mac, Ganondorf, and Shulk. Cape is unsafe as hell with the Doctor since he gets no recovery with it, and he straight up don't have FLUDD, so gimping is a pipe dream (see what I did there)? And the Doctor moves like that stethoscope is a ****ing brick, so that don't help either. I once got 62% in one combo with Mario and never did any **** like with Doc cause of how slow he is and how far he knocks people. But the icing on the cake is his attack lag. The last thing I need with a character like Mario is lag on attacks. Mario is just more malleable, while the Doctor conforms you to play a certain way. Even if his Mega V's kick ass, I'm going with Mario. Sorry, Doc.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc's lack of recovery hurts in some matchups but I'm inclined to say that OVERALL across the board, as far as majority goes, he's likely better even with defaults. There are certain things Mario does better but Doc has a much more effective neutral and more guaranteed damage (plus more of it).

Doc struggles to get in more than Mario does (especially bad in a few MUs) but overall I think he's better, and customs just accelerate it. This is personal opinion but I've gotten more out of Doc than Mario and I've put equal practice and thought into both of them.

 

[BSP]

Doc probably is better.

The more I play this game, the more I realize how insanely weak Mario's damage-per-hit is. It's insane that Mario can land a 10-hit attack string but that only adds up to ~50%, while literally everyone else in the game can reach that amount without putting themselves in so much risk that Mario has to. F-Smash is terrible compared to how it was in Brawl (RIP Stutter Step), and Mario has no reliable kill option except D-air to Up-B on a high platform on Battlefield. U-Smash has to be relied on as a punisher, and F-Smash has to be a hard read. D-Smash is used if you're desperate.

But that's not what makes this such a dilemma. The reason why this hurts Mario so badly is because the competition relies heavily on footsies, and combos are just surplus. Doc is just straight up better at Footsies, and even if he isn't doing 10-hit attack strings, he doesn't need them because his KO power is supreme. Mario has to work way too hard to get damage, and then has to work even harder to get a KO.

Edgeguarding and gimping are his only real saving graces, but if I'm frank, his edgeguarding is mediocre at best while his gimping is slightly above average thanks to Cape and FLUDD.

I'm starting to realize what A2ZOMG has been saying all along.

People just don't understand. The combos look nice and all, but they don't realize that the damage done by them isn't worth how hard it is to work with Mario in neutral.

I was at a tournament today. Friendly with a person using Diddy. I grab -> Dthrow -> Utilt -> Diddy jumps out.

Diddy grabs me -> dthrow -> uair (10%?) -> uair (10%) -> possibly a 3rd uair (10%).

Diddy gets 35% off of grab. I get 10%. It's silly.

Or I'm fighting Mega Man. Grab -> Dthrow -> Utilt -> next Utilt is shielded and I get shieldgrabbed.

 

[Luggy]

I main Mario and Doc, and I have to say : the matchup is pretty equal.

Mario is faster, has a better airial game and got more tools to defend himself while Dr.Mario has big KO moves, strong combos and sneak tricks to win. But overall, they are pretty equal, and there's no real upper hand.

 

[legocrashbro]

There's just something about this argument that gets me a little upset. On one hand, you have Mario that has fantastic combo potential and amazing throws to keep his opponents on their toes. However you have Dr. Mario on the other side with good smash attacks and the tornado spin to match. As a Mario main for pretty much every game, it is clear to me that Mario is the better pick. HE could easily be Mid to High tier if used properly. Personally, I think that Dr. Mario has 2 things going for him. 1. Tornado Spin and 2. Better smash attacks. Even with these, it's not like Mario doesn't have powerful moves so that takes that out of the equation. Finally the Tornado Spin. Ahh....i remember when Mario had this move, but i'm glad he gave it to his bro, cause Luigi deserves and killer moveset like his older brother. Now with Smash 4, Mario's F.L.U.D.D is more viable so it's a good choice to use when your foes are trying to recover.

In short, Dr. Mario in Smash 4 will NEVER be better then Mario. Due to his speed, useless moves, and NO METEOR SMASH! (I use that to kill btw >:D) he can't compare.

Sorry, The Doc is not in today!

 

[TTTTTsd]

That post proves that you do not play Dr. Mario to any degree of seriousness.

Dr. Mario and Mario play nothing alike at all. They share animations and some fundamentals but on a basic and advanced level they are entirely functionally different.

Which of the two is better? Dunno, early on. I prefer Doc as I have more guaranteed strings and easy neutral resets off of D-Throw.

 

[legocrashbro]

Why play a ****ty clone seriously? In Smash 4, he's a bad version of Mario, but Melee is different. The D-Throw combos are within both characters, and yes Doc's may be more effective, but Mario has a better air game with a meteor smash that kills at around 40-100% if over the edge. Honestly, I can see the appeal and competitive use of Doc, but in the 4th installment, he has been replaced.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah a slow, easy to read, telegraphed as **** meteor smash!

If you're going to say my character is competitively unviable it better be for more reasons than "He doesn't have a meteor". Here's a bucket list of things he DOES have.
- One of the best back airs in the game
- Better kill potential than Mario in both the air AND the ground (His Fair can kill at high %s but much like Mario's it's not that great)
- A better projectile for camping and interrupts plus his customs allow him to have the fast fireball too, even better!
- Doctor Tornado while bad for recovery beats a lot of moves it shouldn't (It is legitimately an answer for Sonic's Spindash)

No, he's far from "replaced." You can't play him like Mario because he's a fundamentally different character who has to be played entirely differently.

He's only a clone by visual appearance if you ask me. Which is why this whole "Mario vs. Dr. Mario" thing has stopped making sense to me as of recent because that's like asking if an apple is better than an orange.

 

[legocrashbro]

The Fair is slow and telegraphed for both of them, you said that his Fair can kill at high percentages, but Mario's Fair is telegraphed and slow. It's the same move but with different properties. I don't want to make this an argument, and the whole "one of the best back airs in the game" can be debated as I know that some better ones that outshine Doc's is Bowser and Samus.

 

[TTTTTsd]

That's nice, does Bowser's Back Air autocancel on fast fall and come out disgustingly fast for a character of small stature? Can Bowser go off deep with a custom tornado and Back Air people?

Do note that "one of the best" doesn't mean it's the best but it's certainly better than Mario's and a majority of the roster's.

But whatever, I'm not up to debating which one is better because IMO it's pointless. This ain't Melee, they're vastly different characters with different matchups.

 

[legocrashbro]

I just tested it, Doc's back air doesn't auto-cancel at least to my accounts it doesn't. I tried every way to see if I could cancel but it would just end in the animation. Mario's is the same, and it may not be as powerful as Doc's, but its lower knockback makes it easier to follow-up with in combos.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc's Bair autocancels lmao. I've played this character for 2 months. SH FF Bair is an autocancel. I can go do a video right now if you'd like, would take me like 2 minutes.

 

[legocrashbro]

2 months? I have played Mario for like 5+ years. Their back airs are the same.

 

[A2ZOMG]

legocrashbro...watch this real fast.

You are very fortunate I'm tired, even though I've played competitive Smash for 7 years, and played Mario in Smash SINCE THE BEGINNING. Even though it's realistically a meaningless argument.

I'll leave the rest to TTTTTsd. Seems like I mostly don't need to be here to clear the misinformation.

 

[legocrashbro]

Uhhh, that video showed that mario was kicking ass, and I saw that LM cancel the U-Tilt combo, but it's not like you can't do that with Doc either.

 

[A2ZOMG]

There's just something about this argument that gets me a little upset. On one hand, you have Mario that has fantastic combo potential and amazing throws to keep his opponents on their toes.

I appreciate you grasping at straws even though I didn't need to work hard to directly prove you wrong.

Or do you want me to actually try? I take no responsibility for destroyed hope and dreams, but if you want misconceptions cleared by me personally, I might actually give a damn.

 

[Reila]

Dr. Mario uses electricity over fire. That alone puts him above Mario for me. Plus, his taunts and victory poses amuse me more.

 

[Kapus]

I think it comes down to a matter of preference. Mario is faster and more well rounded, being able to hold his own in pretty much any situation decently well. Doc is slower and has more difficult time recovering, but he's better at camping and baiting opponents and his overall stronger attacks makes him better at punishing. I personally prefer Doc's game, but regular Mario is great too.

 

[legocrashbro]

I appreciate you grasping at straws even though I didn't need to work hard to directly prove you wrong.

Or do you want me to actually try? I take no responsibility for destroyed hope and dreams, but if you want misconceptions cleared by me personally, I might actually give a damn.

Way to be a **** about it. I was only stating my opinion on the matter. Mario in my opinion is better then Doc and I gave valid points, but you are acting like i'm spouting nonsense. There is a bit if bias here, but when is there not in an argument like this.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Way to be a **** about it. I was only stating my opinion on the matter. Mario in my opinion is better then Doc and I gave valid points, but you are acting like i'm spouting nonsense. There is a bit if bias here, but when is there not in an argument like this.

That's because you are spouting nonsense.

We have a LOT of video evidence, collected data, and impressions in many places, which very blatantly contradicts your "opinion". I will acknowledge it is not always very well organized, but the point is, you show a very noticeable lack of precise knowledge about this subject, and you are stating your opinion like it is fact. When it actually isn't.

If you can understand from my perspective, I believe you need to be put in your place for trying to be deliberately misleading. You just have adjectives that lack logical, numerical, or visual backing of any kind. How is that useful in any way?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dr. Mario's Back Air very very CLEARLY autocancels. I'm not going to argue the competitive viability or even who's overall better (I already said I wasn't bothering with that) but do NOT spread misinformation about one character. Doc's Back Air autocancels much in the same way Mario's does, Short hop, Back air RIGHT as you jump, and then fast fall. Yes, I consider that an autocancel as they are still in the recovery animation of their Back Air when they land.

I care not about which you think is better but two things annoy me
A) Calling my character useless (saying all of his moves are useless is like, ugh, please refrain)
B) Telling me that Doc's Bair does not autocancel when it does.

You can think Mario is better and that is a totally valid opinion shared by many people on the matter (likewise vice versa is definitely applicable) but to call my character outright garbage and say all of his moves are useless when they're the same as Mario's but do more damage?

What's bad about Doc is his greatly reduced mobility. Oh and his literal **** tier recovery.

I wouldn't put Doc anywhere out of low tier (probably in the high spectrum of low tiers TBH as he lacks any polarizing matchups both in his favor and against him IMO)

 

[legocrashbro]

Umm, it's my OPINION. I wasn't stating as fact, as I was just giving my views and points. You think that this is nonsense because of evidence, but maybe my experiences were different. We are not all the same, and maybe I use Mario in a way that makes him better for my playstyle over Doc. You can't tell me that i'm wrong because it is merely my opinion.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well if Mario's better for your playstyle you could've went ahead and said that as opposed to, and I quote
"useless moves"
Which ones? You mean Down+B, or...?
I'm not super mad or upset but....it would really help if you clarified rather than making a blanket statement about useless moves and not explaining what they are so I can understand what the heck you mean.

 

[legocrashbro]

Doctor Tornado and Dair.

Down+B : Doctor Tornado: can cancel most moves but can be easily interrupted with a well-placed attack.

Dair: Not viable for combos, but can trap opponents for good damage.