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Mario RPG Discussion Thread

StrangeKitten

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I really wonder... since Sakurai has only ever posted Geno with his face obscured, is that really just to help sell the illusion that we're not looking at a Mii, or does Sakurai despise the face the way we do? What I'd give to be a fly on the wall of Sakurai's meetings with Square-Enix, to see just how Geno was negotiated for. Can't help but wonder if he's disappointed that he couldn't have fixed Geno's face for Ultimate, possibly due to negotiations requiring the costume be kept the same aside from minor touch-ups.
 

Griselda

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I really wonder... since Sakurai has only ever posted Geno with his face obscured, is that really just to help sell the illusion that we're not looking at a Mii, or does Sakurai despise the face the way we do? What I'd give to be a fly on the wall of Sakurai's meetings with Square-Enix, to see just how Geno was negotiated for. Can't help but wonder if he's disappointed that he couldn't have fixed Geno's face for Ultimate, possibly due to negotiations requiring the costume be kept the same aside from minor touch-ups.
Now that you mention it... that is rather curious, isn't it? Not that it really matters at this point, at least from my perspective*. But it's pretty odd, looking back on it. Sakurai has said in the past that he personally feels that Mii Costumes are essentially just as good as the real thing, so why single this one out to feel differently about? Because, yeah, he does keep doing this 'Geno facing away' thing, doesn't he? Would he really feel enough about the situation to avoid showing the Mii face as much as possible? My stance on things is that he just outright didn't really care enough to try and get more for Geno than a returning Mii Costume (that was probably only updated because Miis have updated proportions in general, in Ultimate), and that Geno was written out of consideration as soon as the project plan for Ultimate was being put together - but could it possibly be that, even if this is the case, he came to regret that decision later on?

Now, correct me if I'm wrong on this point, since it's been a while since these things were discussed, but I seem to remember hearing that at least the indie Mii Costumes were actually something that came about mid-development and weren't a part of the original plan (I think I remember Sans' costume being a part of some sort of wager with Undertale's developer or something? But I could be way off here)? If this is the case, then maybe Sakurai just genuinely hadn't considered the idea of a Geno costume that completely removes the Mii's head, and once he saw how the Sans/Cuphead/Vault Boy/etc. costumes looked in motion he thought in hindsight that he could've done something similar for Geno - but with Square-Enix being a bigger Japanese entity, they might've been more resistant to altering their deals and he didn't think it was worth the time and effort or money, with other issues to sort out still present.

* My stance on the matter in general is presently that Sakurai was totally satisfied with the Mii Costume in Sm4sh, and had no plans to 'upgrade' Geno for Ultimate. But if it turns out to be the case that he actually did try and get Geno as a fighter/deluxe mii/etc. and was actually blocked in his attempt, then that might actually point to something worse, that there might actually be some sort of specific anti-SMRPG part of the internal mandates, for both Nintendo and Square-Enix. And in that case even the faceless Geno we got was a miracle.
 

WeirdAlFan101

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So sadly, Toshin has said he's decided to scrap the Geno Mii Gunner Overhaul, saying that he's not experienced enough to finish it to a point where he would be happy publishing it. But he also said if anyone's interested in taking up the mantle, then feel free to.
 

Griselda

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So sadly, Toshin has said he's decided to scrap the Geno Mii Gunner Overhaul, saying that he's not experienced enough to finish it to a point where he would be happy publishing it. But he also said if anyone's interested in taking up the mantle, then feel free to.
I'm disappointed, but not very surprised. Progress seemed to be slowing down, so I figured something must've been going wrong with the project. Though I dunno what it could've been, since everything I'd seen so far seemed like it was at a pretty good quality level?
 

Geno Boost

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I think we should wait until smash ultimate modding gets easier to work with similar to how brawl took time until people figured out how to mod stuff easier and started making high quality content
 

Griselda

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Unpatched Switches are
I think we should wait until smash ultimate modding gets easier to work with similar to how brawl took time until people figured out how to mod stuff easier and started making high quality content
There's still the fact that unpatched Switches are still a finite and ever-decreasing resource.
 

Geno Boost

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Unpatched Switches are

There's still the fact that unpatched Switches are still a finite and ever-decreasing resource.
It’s true but the current status of the modding community for what I have seen so far that Goku and Akuma and Waluigi are one of the few that has custom moveset but the issue it does require replacing character so smash ultimate mods still needs time until adding content instead of replacing content becomes easier.
 

Griselda

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It’s true but the current status of the modding community for what I have seen so far that Goku and Akuma and Waluigi are one of the few that has custom moveset but the issue it does require replacing character so smash ultimate mods still needs time until adding content instead of replacing content becomes easier.
Well, in many of the cases regarding mods, what I want is to replace the character choices Sakurai/Nintendo/etc. made with my own, rather than just adding to the roster. On top of that, I'd ~like~ a fully fleshed-out Shadow moveset with guns and chaos spears, for instance, but if it comes down to it I'm absolutely fine with him just being one of Sonic's skins instead of 'slightly different shade of blue # 4'. Considering I got a Geno that was missing his face and one of his arms, I've started valuing characters actually looking like themselves over anything else, at this point.

Sorry if I'm rambling a little - I'm a little dizzy and scattered at the moment - but my point is that I don't think the Geno over Mii Gunner mod being shelved entirely in favor of a full Geno moveset mod that we might get eventually down the road is the best option, here. I could be satisfied with a Geno that has his face, announcer call, and makes SMRPG sounds and effects, and I'm sure there are many other people who could be, too. I feel the best option here is to just have both - remodeled Mii Gunner now, and full custom Geno five years from now or however long it takes.
 

MattX20

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Well, in many of the cases regarding mods, what I want is to replace the character choices Sakurai/Nintendo/etc. made with my own, rather than just adding to the roster. On top of that, I'd ~like~ a fully fleshed-out Shadow moveset with guns and chaos spears, for instance, but if it comes down to it I'm absolutely fine with him just being one of Sonic's skins instead of 'slightly different shade of blue # 4'. Considering I got a Geno that was missing his face and one of his arms, I've started valuing characters actually looking like themselves over anything else, at this point.

Sorry if I'm rambling a little - I'm a little dizzy and scattered at the moment - but my point is that I don't think the Geno over Mii Gunner mod being shelved entirely in favor of a full Geno moveset mod that we might get eventually down the road is the best option, here. I could be satisfied with a Geno that has his face, announcer call, and makes SMRPG sounds and effects, and I'm sure there are many other people who could be, too. I feel the best option here is to just have both - remodeled Mii Gunner now, and full custom Geno five years from now or however long it takes.
Yeah, I don't think it shelved a proper Geno moveset
 

Griselda

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So, the other day I was playing Smash with my cousin, and a series of events led us to the perfect idea for the opening of an in-engine reveal trailer for Geno (be it the overhaul or otherwise).

We just start with a shot of him laying flat on the ground, like how characters do after taking heavy hits, but he's also under the effects of the poison mushroom. So we have a tiny, motionless Geno. Then, we just have to time him getting up at the same time as the mushroom wearing off, which should give a pretty convincing take on the way the doll grows to human-size and becomes animated by the star in SMRPG.
 

Quillion

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Thread bump.

I've wanted to get this off my chest for a while: While I don't agree with the overcorrective restrictions imposed on the Paper Mario series (and possibly the entire franchise's spin-off material) since Sticker Star, I agree with WHY they did it: they felt that Super Paper Mario was too far removed from the Mario universe.

I loved Super Paper Mario's story at first, initially agreeing with the sentiment that it was the best story ever told in the Mario franchise. But looking at the game again, Super Paper Mario feels like it never should have been part of the Mario franchise to begin with. The Mario elements and even characters, IMO, feel tacked on to a story about multiversal hopping and of a villain whose loss of his love left him with nothing left to live for. The story as a whole feels like something that doesn't take place in the Mario universe, and the fact that it literally doesn't take place in the Mario universe feels like it proves my point.

While the post-SPM Paper Mario games feel like they hew too closely to mainline Mario elements, Super Paper Mario goes too far in the other direction. I have a hypothesis that if Super Paper Mario was its own IP, Miyamoto would not have such a negative reaction to its story and would not have convinced Nintendo to impose those mandates on the franchise. In that alt timeline, we could have stuck with the balanced approach of the first two Paper Mario games.
 

Griselda

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Thread bump.

I've wanted to get this off my chest for a while: While I don't agree with the overcorrective restrictions imposed on the Paper Mario series (and possibly the entire franchise's spin-off material) since Sticker Star, I agree with WHY they did it: they felt that Super Paper Mario was too far removed from the Mario universe.

I loved Super Paper Mario's story at first, initially agreeing with the sentiment that it was the best story ever told in the Mario franchise. But looking at the game again, Super Paper Mario feels like it never should have been part of the Mario franchise to begin with. The Mario elements and even characters, IMO, feel tacked on to a story about multiversal hopping and of a villain whose loss of his love left him with nothing left to live for. The story as a whole feels like something that doesn't take place in the Mario universe, and the fact that it literally doesn't take place in the Mario universe feels like it proves my point.

While the post-SPM Paper Mario games feel like they hew too closely to mainline Mario elements, Super Paper Mario goes too far in the other direction. I have a hypothesis that if Super Paper Mario was its own IP, Miyamoto would not have such a negative reaction to its story and would not have convinced Nintendo to impose those mandates on the franchise. In that alt timeline, we could have stuck with the balanced approach of the first two Paper Mario games.
My personal take on the Mario RPG series has always been that they were good because they veered so far away from the standard Mario games and let stories be explored where Mario and co. had to deal with things outside of their comfort zone, in a 'now you see how harmless Bowser's usual antics really are' sort of way. I've always felt there was something simple but meaningful in showing that Mario - when faced with ancient demons and witches, aliens and even multiverse-eating voids - just tackles them head on in much the same way as always, jumping and shouting cheerfully, and typically arming himself with nothing more than his boots (and whatever hammers he picked up on the way).

I suppose I also felt that it brought a different sort of picture of Mario's character, or lack thereof - that he wasn't just a bland 'guy who jumps on things', but suddenly he was radiating constancy. He didn't have any big personal stakes in things as an individual, or dramatic character arcs to undergo, but no matter how big the problem was you knew you could always count on Mario to just get the job done, and then quietly go home until he was needed again. I felt there was something there calling back to his origins as a humble worker type, that you could call on him when your basement was flooded or when your whole world was shattering and he'd get the problem sorted out both times just because it was the right thing to do.

But yeah, I can also understand feeling that SPM in particular went a bit too far outside the usual style. The total lack of the Mushroom Kingdom - and the whole Mushroom World, or whatever the planet's being called these days - I feel might have been a part of that problem. I feel like the same kind of story could've probably been told had the problem just come to the Mario setting as usual, rather than a handful of Mario characters getting dragged into another universe's crisis.

But another thing that I think had a role to play in all of this? Timing. Unless I've gotten my dates mixed, Super Paper Mario came to the Wii at a time when it would be the only big Mario title for the console. Galaxy was still a ways off, and so was NSMBWii. I think that on top of being so distanced from the standard Mario universe, it had the misfortune of being thrust into the spotlight as the Mario representative, which only highlighted those differences. You expect to buy the new Nintendo for your kid, and a Mario to go with it, right? But suddenly here's this thing that looks like Mario but doesn't play like Mario, and has tons and tons of text that a younger child might struggle with, especially if you got it for them as their first Mario, thinking that it'd be a simple jump-on-koopas deal.

Suddenly, all of those elements the RPG series was known for began to stick out rather than stand out. And we all know how Nintendo loves overcorrecting what they see as a problem. If I'm not mistaken, didn't SPM begin life as a late Gamecube title before being bumped to the Wii? I feel like the timing might've played a pretty big role in things. It's as if the whole landscape could've been different, but I just feel a kind of quiet sadness more than anything else when I think about how things could've gone differently.
 

Quillion

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Griselda Griselda : That's the thing with the Mario RPGs' original villains and races; while they were weird and exciting additions to the franchise, they always felt grounded as logical additions to Mario's universe. Perhaps I would like SPM's story a lot more if it did take place in Mario's universe, though they would have to do something about the sheer power creep that was the Chaos Heart's Void.
 

Griselda

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Griselda Griselda : That's the thing with the Mario RPGs' original villains and races; while they were weird and exciting additions to the franchise, they always felt grounded as logical additions to Mario's universe. Perhaps I would like SPM's story a lot more if it did take place in Mario's universe, though they would have to do something about the sheer power creep that was the Chaos Heart's Void.
Coming back to it with a fresh mind, I think the same sense of urgency probably could've been maintained had it just been restricted to the Mushroom World, actually. The Shadow Queen did set the bar pretty high, with her simply waking up apparently being enough to darken the skies over at least the continent, but she still intended to rule the world. An unthinking, unrelenting thing in the sky that's going to outright destroy the planet is still a logical step up and a legitimate threat without even having to drag in any other universes or even other planets. Admittedly, I'm currently drawing a blank on how the events at Sammer's Kingdom could be adjusted to a single-universe setting, but I'm sure something else could have just as much impact, if done properly.

On the topic of the villains feeling grounded in the Mario setting, that's also something I really miss. The living office supplies in TOK have plenty of body horror and eldritch potential, yeah, but something just feels off about them in a bad way, for me. The Smithy Gang was already a good template for feeling suitably alien to Mario's world but still matching the pre-established rules and logic. If clouds and mushrooms have eyes, then living weapons isn't too much of a leap from there, but at least they had eyes, too.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Really, SPM's key mistake might have been having an unfamiliar setting AND doing a fairly out there set of villains with their own stories disconnected to any Mario lore. You can do one or the other, but doing both might have just been too much for one title.
 

Quillion

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Coming back to it with a fresh mind, I think the same sense of urgency probably could've been maintained had it just been restricted to the Mushroom World, actually. The Shadow Queen did set the bar pretty high, with her simply waking up apparently being enough to darken the skies over at least the continent, but she still intended to rule the world. An unthinking, unrelenting thing in the sky that's going to outright destroy the planet is still a logical step up and a legitimate threat without even having to drag in any other universes or even other planets. Admittedly, I'm currently drawing a blank on how the events at Sammer's Kingdom could be adjusted to a single-universe setting, but I'm sure something else could have just as much impact, if done properly.
Well, some people say that the solution to power creep isn't necessarily to reduce the scale, but to make the effects of the big scale hit harder. Maybe instead of making Flipside and Flopside the hubs of the world, make it located in Toad Town or anywhere else in the Mushroom Kingdom. Make the Void create dimensional rifts that open to different universes. Make it so that the Void is forcing the people of other universes to evacuate through these rifts to Toad Town to avoid being consumed.

The Sammer Kingdom destruction is tricky, but I honestly thought the Shroobs using bio-engineered trees to suck the life out of Toads for fuel in Partners in Time had far more impact. Maybe they could keep the Sammer Kingdom events as is, but very late into the game, before you take the fight to Bleck's group, parts of Toad Town are destroyed as it starts to be consumed. Some Toads themselves would be petrified by the Void.

On the topic of the villains feeling grounded in the Mario setting, that's also something I really miss. The living office supplies in TOK have plenty of body horror and eldritch potential, yeah, but something just feels off about them in a bad way, for me. The Smithy Gang was already a good template for feeling suitably alien to Mario's world but still matching the pre-established rules and logic. If clouds and mushrooms have eyes, then living weapons isn't too much of a leap from there, but at least they had eyes, too.
The Legion of Stationery were literally just office supplies; of course they wouldn't feel grounded in Mario's universe. Bleck's group also doesn't feel grounded in Mario's universe because they're literally not from Mario's universe, their designs are too otherworldly, and like LiveStudioAudience LiveStudioAudience noted, they are completely disconnected from Mario lore.

Really, SPM's key mistake might have been having an unfamiliar setting AND doing a fairly out there set of villains with their own stories disconnected to any Mario lore. You can do one or the other, but doing both might have just been too much for one title.
I feel this; SPM feels like it focuses so much on the new characters and especially Tippi and Bleck's story so much that the established Mario characters are neglected. Mario, Peach, and Bowser feel dragged along by this large-scale plot rather than participating in it.
 

MattX20

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Hmm...I wonder what would happen if characters like Daisy entered the RPGs
 

WeirdAlFan101

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I was thinking maybe a fun idea we could do is dream up what a hypothetical Seven Stars sequel could be like, if Fujioka DOES get his wish to make it.

While it would be a sequel, I think it would be a nice idea to bring in other gameplay aspects from other RPG series, to make it the ultimate Mario RPG experience, so while it would still take place in the Seven Stars universe, maybe it could have stuff like partner overworld abilities from early Paper Mario, and maybe the item inventory from Mario and Luigi, stuff like that. Any other ideas?
 
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LiveStudioAudience

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If I had absolutely had to do a Mario RPG sequel, here's my take (warning, glorified fan fic to be found below)

Setting/Story: Whereas the first game was a weapon based army from another plane invading Mario's world, the sequel has the inverse: a separate dimension pulling elements from the Mushroom Kingdom and other familiar areas into its realm. Thus explaining why Mario, Peach, Bowser end up there, once again having to team up. And much like the contrast between Kirby Triple Deluxe and Robobot, this sequel would also invert the style of the antagonists, with a nature based Big Bad utilizing powers and forces from the natural landscape to change the world to their liking. You could even build upon the lore, with a revelation that the Smithy Gang had previously warred with them in the past and that the latter's efforts in the previous game were to create more weapons to defeat them.

Furthermore, this new setting would also have various towns/locations wrecked, with the twist that while Smithy and company destroyed the Star Road and made wishes never come true, this group of villains has used magic to corrupt people's wishes in order to weaken them. Thus, a jungle once desperate for an end to their drought has now been flooded. a farmland needing good crops overrun with plants, etc. This could also be what brings Geno into the story, with him being sent to end the corruption of this dimension's Star Road, but it eventually being revealed that as a Star Spirit, he too is at risk for corruption by the baddie's magic.

Characters: The original five are back as it's revealed that Mallow too was pulled into the other dimension along with Mario, Bowser, and Peach. They and Geno eventually reunite, but the additional wrinkle is two new characters to join them. Luigi is promoted to playable status and one of the core dynamics is a series of comical in fighting between him and Bowser, the with the latter often forgetting his name and the former constantly unintentionally insulting the Koopa King. Luigi also works in battle as a very sklll based party member, with his attacks demanding more precise use of the action commands for maximum effect for both offense and defense.

The 7th and final party member would be a new character, a female defector from the antagonists forces teaming up with the heroes and wielding a lot of nature based attacks (ie a special attack of hitting an enemy underneath via a large root). In terms of story, you could focus on why she turned against the villains and maybe even develop a friendship and/or romance with Mallow along the way.

Mechanics: Basically it's all about expansion of previous concepts and a few elements lifted from M&L and PM. Counter actions are greatly emphasized, with various characters being better or worse with defense/dodges against attacks (either of the physical or magical variety). Allow for a greater use of accessories for characters as the game goes on, with potential depth from how individual ones interact with each other when equipped. Weapons would also get greater expansion, with certain bonus effects now possible with the trade-off of being less effective against certain enemies. The party in battle would also be expanded to 4 out of 7 characters total.

There would also be a minor incorporation of party abilities outside battles (ie a single member can travel along side Mario on the overworld). Luigi long jumps, Peach can undo corrupted NPC's/items, Bowser knocks down heavy doors/obstacles, Mallow freezes certain enemies, Geno can generate magical fields around Mario of varying effect, and the newcomer can uncover hidden items beneath the soil.
 

SSGuy

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It's been a while, but I updated the OP with a few additional games and updated some links.

There was also an entire showcase about Paper Mario inspired games. It's 40 minutes of content so I'm sure there are some great things in here!

 

Oracle Link

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One thing im still wondering is why theres no Mario Rpg Fighter in Smash i mean yeah 'GEno is Third party (And i personally think hes overated anyway)
but what about Paper Mario, Vivian or Fawful what is wrong with them?
 

WeirdAlFan101

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One reason I recall hearing before, about why Paper Mario could possibly be missing, is because Sakurai tends to pull inspiration from the entirety of a character's appearances, and a very beloved aspect of Paper Mario is the partners, which are plentiful in the earlier games, and are generally wanted in a proper moveset.

And because Sticker Star has placed a completely different tone on the franchise, and is more preferred by Nintendo themselves, there may be conflicts behind the scenes between Sakurai and Nintendo, on how Paper Mario can be presented as a fighter.
 

Diddy Kong

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I don't think so honestly. Paper Mario would probably fight with paper folding techniques , the hammer and various items I'd think. Up B is definitely a paper plane , Neutral or Side B the hammer. Down B something like a Spring Jump.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Church of Kondo, who's done some wonderful HD remasterings of various SNES/N64 games via finding the original samples has moved on to the biggest heavy hitter of Super Mario RPG:


Definitely an adjustment after being used to the SNES soundchip for so long, but worth a listen. Can't wait to see him do other parts of the OST.
 

S1itchey

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Griselda

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So, is this place just totally dead, now? I figured I'd revive in order to show off this thing I saw earlier - someone's had the same idea I had and gone ahead and made that Mallow over Lucas mod I was planning on commissioning.




He looks... kinda questionable, in my opinion, but hey - it's Mallow. Modern renders of him always look a little uncanny, somehow. But really, the point is that the whole SMRPG crew can finally be together in Smash, and that's the part that matters.
 

Griselda

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I think the issue is that he's just slightly too popcorn esque with his shape. With Mallow you have to hit that sweet spot where he's not too round and not with too many individual puffs. Somebody who should look a bit like Kirby from a distance but more distinct when you get close.

Cool mod otherwise though.
That's a pretty good assessment, yeah. Upon a second look - and a little squinting - I think he'd benefit from having those puffs not be as clearly defined and separated. I think a less flat expression and maybe brighter/more detailed eyes would help, too. I'm picturing something a little like Kirby's modern eyes:

Perhaps not quite as blue as Kirby's eyes, but you get the idea.
 

Geno Boost

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Star Hill. Why do you ask?

Geno Boost

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Star Hill. Why do you ask?
Are you able to share which ones? I'm excited to see!
the save block i modeled 3 years ago you can see it from here
as for the rest i guess their inclusion would require more progress throughout the game development itself as the area is still the beginning of SMRPG
but if you are curious where you can see them in game then i did make a world in vrchat called Papa Geno's Pizzaria and Gaz's House 1-3 years ago that displays some of them
 
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