Mario Universe Mario Kart General Discussion - 200CC Announced | Second DLC Pack Coming in May!

[Phantom Gamer]

I forget if it was ever mentioned yet, but I feel that getting the coin item in a higher position such as first place isn't too bad since either you'll get to another item box soon enough so its whatever or it can help you get back to max coins faster and thus not being as slow as you could be by using it after getting hit.

 

[Nitric Acid]

I forget if it was ever mentioned yet, but I feel that getting the coin item in a higher position such as first place isn't too bad since either you'll get to another item box soon enough so its whatever or it can help you get back to max coins faster and thus not being as slow as you could be by using it after getting hit.

From what I've heard, the coin item is extremely common when you're in 1st place, which makes item blocking very difficult. I liked GameXplain's wording of it: "Basically every Red Shell turns into a Blue Shell". I'm fine with the change in the end, since they've made actual Blue Shells rather rare this time around.

 

[IsmaR]

Got my loan return/check. Once I find a place to pre-order a bundle, this **** is officially happening.

 

[dimensionsword64]

I am going to 100% enjoy putting Bowser into the Mr. Scooty and Wario into the Prancer.

 

[LF2K]

Mr. Scooty is funnier than it should be.

 

[IsmaR]

This is the only thing I can think of when I hear Scooty.

 

[Substitution]

Looked up Mr. Scooty.
And I can say without any sarcasm that that's the best bike I've ever seen in my life.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The amusing part about the Mr. Scooty bike is that its shape is more designed for short characters, and yet there can be larger variants for the likes of Wario and Waluigi.

Of course, this isn't the first time that a heavyweight has tried to fit in a lightweight vehicle, as Mario Kart DS has shown us with the Mushmellow kart; how that kart can ever hold Bowser's weight is beyond baffling.

 

[Gatlin]

@ Gatlin : Your entire post is the epitome of being blindly apologetic.

I'm not trying to sound apologetic about any flaws that Mario Kart may have. I am simply stating that this is how Mario Kart has always been; and none of the games in the series have failed to acquire a form of competitive community. I just feel like you may be being a bit more overly-critical in terms of what you find wrong with the game as opposed to me being overly-forgiving.

This entire part is just assuming "people complaining about Mario Kart are playing badly", but I assure you that's not my case. I play smart, but my problem is, playing smart is not really properly accommodated in Mario Kart. My complaints are very comparable to how people complain about tripping in Brawl, or how competitive Smash players play with items off - an overdose of random luck factors in any competitive game is bad design. Objectively. This is not an opinion. It's Game Design 101.

Playing smart definitely rewards the player in Mario Kart.

You need to use your items correctly in Mario Kart if you want to place well. You can't just spam them out and always have the intention of messing up other racers, you need to play defensively at times, or execute your items at the correct moments. Like I said though, sometimes you will get messed up in first, and there will be nothing that you can do, that is just how Mario Kart works. It's not a flaw because that is how the game is.

And it's not bad game design in any form whatsoever.

People choose to be competitive about a game, those competitive players chose to make a scene and play against one another. Nintendo did not release Mario Kart in hopes of it acquiring a competitive community and to be played in a competitive manner. People chose to create that on their own, whilst working around any of the randomness that is present in the games themselves. The fact that the players are able to and have been able to create a working competitive scene around all the quirkiness of Mario Kart proves that Mario Kart has a very successful game design, which caters to both casuals and competitive gamers.

And as I said, each and every one of them are situational. You can't attempt them every time. Most of the time, you will be a sitting duck.

And the mushroom method is an exploit, it's not intended to be there. You cannot get mushrooms in first place, yet the Blue Shells target first place players. If the mushroom exploit is intentional, then it's poorly implemented.

You can dodge a blue shell with a mushroom in both Mario Kart Wii and Mario Kart 7, and as far as I can recall from videos, Mario Kart 8 as well. Mushrooms are also definitely available in first place, albeit rare; but still possible. It is also not the hardest thing to have mushrooms, stars, bullet bills, etc in first place simply from running them up from lower placements.

I wholeheartedly agree - when I'm playing casually. But when I'm playing seriously or trying to get through single player, where I am trying to unlock stuff and am getting bombarded with what can only be described as the game rigging things against me, we have a problem. No amount of apologetic defense will justify that. At the very least, Mario Kart could do with something similar to "For Fun" and "For Glory" from Smash 4.

You are wanting Mario Kart to be something other than Mario Kart here, lol.

"Mario Kart having objective design flaws is OK" is all I am reading here.

What you are reading there is me saying that first place is not invincible. Even so, I know plenty of very good players who can still hold their own even with items playing against them and still come out in a top placement. Also, it's not like first place is the only placement which gets screwed by items. If anything, I would say first place is one of the better placements to be in as your only main threats are the blue shell and target shocks. Meanwhile, all the people who are stuck in the middle of the pack have to deal with items both being spammed behind the players in front of them, as well as the players behind them.

I do have a problem for with your final statement there, though. "Because Mario Kart" is not a good enough rebuttal for anything I'm putting forward. I never even said Mario Kart should be more like Forza (I don't play Forza or any realistic racing sims), I simply said that it should take inspiration from other kart racers that handle a competitive environment a lot better. I'm not saying it has to become exactly like them, it simply needs to take a few notes. MK8 is so close, yet so far, from being on the level of other racers.

Actually, it is a good rebuttal, lol.
This is Mario Kart, and it should remain Mario Kart. The millions of people who play this game want it to remain Mario Kart, and don't want it to become like other racing games. MK8 doesn't need to be on the "level" of other racers, as it's on its own level entirely. Mario Kart is unique, and should remain that way.

So people are not allowed to criticise Mario Kart? Sorry, but if a game has problems, they should be criticised by consumers, and addressed by developers.

People shouldn't just say "it's Mario Kart, so it's fine, that's how it always is". Mario Kart is not a sacred franchise that we can't criticise, and it's never been considered the best competitive racing game for a lot of reasons. It just has a lot of anti-competitive BS in it, that can easily be fine tuned. Plus, I'm not saying they should remove the more chaotic, party appropriate style gameplay, they should just have more options for those who want a more competitive style of race. Even being able to just turn off rubber band A.I (yes, other Kart racers have this as an OPTION) would be a god send.

You can criticize the game all you want, but it won't change anything. The ratio of people satisfied with Mario Kart is much higher than the people who aren't, both from a casual and competitive point of view. Fine tuning the anti-competitive BS would just remove the Mario Kart-esque nature to the game and make it something else.

Plus, you tell me that we shouldn't take Mario Kart seriously (which is a pretty anti-competitive attitude, by the way, yet you claim to play competitively).

This is a bad claim to make about me lol. I am serious about Mario Kart to an extent. I still have pure fun with the game more times than not. People who are purely serious about the game are boring and need to lighten up. I don't really care if that displays me as acting like an anti-competitive competitive contradiction, cuz in the end I know how I do.

 

[IntelliHeath1]

1 week hype! :D

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm not trying to sound apologetic about any flaws that Mario Kart may have. I am simply stating that this is how Mario Kart has always been; and none of the games in the series have failed to acquire a form of competitive community. I just feel like you may be being a bit more overly-critical in terms of what you find wrong with the game as opposed to me being overly-forgiving.

You may not be trying to sound apologetic. But you are being apologetic.

I'm not being overly-critical, and my opinions on competitive Mario Kart are far from uncommon. I still look forward to Mario Kart 8, and I've given it plenty of credit. It's the first Mario Kart I've ever been hyped for and followed before it's release. I still have things I think they are taking too long to address, though. Again, Mario Kart is not a holy grail. We're allowed to criticise it.

Playing smart definitely rewards the player in Mario Kart.

You need to use your items correctly in Mario Kart if you want to place well. You can't just spam them out and always have the intention of messing up other racers, you need to play defensively at times, or execute your items at the correct moments. Like I said though, sometimes you will get messed up in first, and there will be nothing that you can do, that is just how Mario Kart works. It's not a flaw because that is how the game is.

That's not my problem though. My problem is that this, as a defensive mechanic, is far too luck based. For example, getting a coin from an item box when I'm in first place and already have 10 coins is complete BS, and as GameXplain mentioned, means Red Shells may as well be Blue Shells for 1st place players. Plus, it's redundant, since I can already get plenty of coins on the track. And since getting coins in first place from an item box is extremely common, this is a HUGE flaw in the game's design. It is not rational, and there is no justified reason for it to be like this. And, it's anti-competitive.

You can dodge a blue shell with a mushroom in both Mario Kart Wii and Mario Kart 7, and as far as I can recall from videos, Mario Kart 8 as well. Mushrooms are also definitely available in first place, albeit rare; but still possible. It is also not the hardest thing to have mushrooms, stars, bullet bills, etc in first place simply from running them up from lower placements.

I have literally never, ever received a Mushroom in first place, and I've played plenty of Mario Kart DS and Mario Kart Wii. If this is going to be possible in Mario Kart 8, but is rare, it's still a problem. Again, it's a matter of luck, not skill.

You are wanting Mario Kart to be something other than Mario Kart here, lol.

No I am not, I am asking it to provide more options so different players with different preferences can play how they want to play. This is 2014. Mario Kart should be doing this by now.

What you are reading there is me saying that first place is not invincible. Even so, I know plenty of very good players who can still hold their own even with items playing against them and still come out in a top placement. Also, it's not like first place is the only placement which gets screwed by items. If anything, I would say first place is one of the better placements to be in as your only main threats are the blue shell and target shocks. Meanwhile, all the people who are stuck in the middle of the pack have to deal with items both being spammed behind the players in front of them, as well as the players behind them.

I'm aware first place is not invincible. And it should not be. But there should be a consistent means of defense that don't rely so heavily on your luck from item boxes. Again, Mario Kart Arcade GP had this, and was a much more com

And while carrying powerful items into first place is fine when I'm trying to get into first place at the beginning of a race, if you mean to say I should pull back into an earlier place intentionally to get better items, after holding a first place for a long time - again, that's terrible design.

Actually, it is a good rebuttal, lol.
This is Mario Kart, and it should remain Mario Kart. The millions of people who play this game want it to remain Mario Kart, and don't want it to become like other racing games. MK8 doesn't need to be on the "level" of other racers, as it's on its own level entirely. Mario Kart is unique, and should remain that way.

If that's the case, why is it I always see people saying Mario Kart needs a lot of improvement to become more competitively viable?

Taking inspiration from other games does not mean copying them exactly and losing uniqueness. You can take inspiration from something, but develop it and add your own thing to it. Heck, your point here is completely invalid, when you consider Mario Kart 8 does this in one aspect:

Crash Nitro Kart was doing anti-gravity kart racing long before Mario Kart got to it. At first, I thought they were ripping the off Crash entirely. But then, they revealed the Spin Boost, which is looking to be an incredibly nuanced mechanic that will benefit Mario Kart as a whole.

This is exactly the sort of thing Mario Kart needs to do more of. And it's basically what I've been saying this whole time. Except what I'm asking for is just taking inspiration from other kart racers in terms of balancing tweaks and options. And maybe bringing back the shield from Mario Kart Arcade GP, since that's still unique to Mario Kart, as far as I know.

You can criticize the game all you want, but it won't change anything. The ratio of people satisfied with Mario Kart is much higher than the people who aren't, both from a casual and competitive point of view. Fine tuning the anti-competitive BS would just remove the Mario Kart-esque nature to the game and make it something else.

Firstly, you have no proof that is true. Don't mention ratios without having an actual number, it makes you look like you don't have a clue what "ratio" even means.

As for "fine-tuning Mario Kart would remove it's uniqueness and personality", see above.

This is a bad claim to make about me lol. I am serious about Mario Kart to an extent. I still have pure fun with the game more times than not. People who are purely serious about the game are boring and need to lighten up. I don't really care if that displays me as acting like an anti-competitive competitive contradiction, cuz in the end I know how I do.

I didn't claim anything about you, I just noted a contradiction you made.

I'm not purely serious about the game (my whole point is that the game lacks competitive viability, even though it's extremely easy to fix that. As in, "they could patch it in" easy). When I play with my family in any game, I always play light-heartedly. And when it comes to IRL friends, I play both lightly and seriously with them. However, when I'm trying to unlock stuff or play online, I'd rather the game not be terribly unbalanced, and I'd rather it not punish me for holding first place. Like I said, options are always good. Even just having the option to turn off rubber banding A.I would be a great thing.[/QUOTE]

 

[Z'zgashi]

That's not my problem though. My problem is that this, as a defensive mechanic, is far too luck based. For example, getting a coin from an item box when I'm in first place and already have 10 coins is complete BS, and as GameXplain mentioned, means Red Shells may as well be Blue Shells for 1st place players. Plus, it's redundant, since I can already get plenty of coins on the track. And since getting coins in first place from an item box is extremely common, this is a HUGE flaw in the game's design. It is not rational, and there is no justified reason for it to be like this. And, it's anti-competitive.

1. If they did nerf Defensive play, that just makes the game more Offensive, which isnt a bad thing in the slightest, its just different.
2. ESPECIALLY when it comes to how changes will effect high level play, I dont trust the opinions of the reviewers, as generally all those people doing the reviews are casual as ****. A company like GameXplain or something saying that Red Shells are like Blue Shells are playing at an ABYSMALLY lower level than top level players will, and casual players are notoriously horrible at managing items. This doesnt tell me that Defensive play is nonexistant, it tells me item management is going to be really important.
3. Adding more counter play is almost always pro-competitive, not anti competitive, as it forces players to skillfully keep their place/consistently play well as opposed to getting a lead and going 'lol nobody can stop me now since I broke away'.

I have literally never, ever received a Mushroom in first place, and I've played plenty of Mario Kart DS and Mario Kart Wii. If this is going to be possible in Mario Kart 8, but is rare, it's still a problem. Again, it's a matter of luck, not skill.

Ive gotten 1st place shrooms countless times, but due to how rare they are, nobody EVER relies on them, getting one is very rare.

No I am not, I am asking it to provide more options so different players with different preferences can play how they want to play. This is 2014. Mario Kart should be doing this by now.

You mean like how MK7 had the ability to make groups online and change what items are allowed and such? Cuz theyve already done that, and theyve had those options offline for a VERY long time as well.

I'm aware first place is not invincible. And it should not be. But there should be a consistent means of defense that don't rely so heavily on your luck from item boxes. Again, Mario Kart Arcade GP had this, and was a much more com

The best way to defend first is to have good lines, no matter how many items you pull or how lucky you get, a player with good lines will still almost always beat the player getting lucky items.

And while carrying powerful items into first place is fine when I'm trying to get into first place at the beginning of a race, if you mean to say I should pull back into an earlier place intentionally to get better items, after holding a first place for a long time - again, that's terrible design.

Once again, better lines will almost always prevail. Against top level players, you cannot, I repeat CANNOT consistently drop down a few spots, get a good item, and then catch back up. It just doesnt work, and its putting A LOT of risk to go for that good item. Unless youre on a cheesy stage like SGB, this will almost never work against the best players, hence the high risk high reward.

If that's the case, why is it I always see people saying Mario Kart needs a lot of improvement to become more competitively viable?

The people saying that are usually players who arent playing competitively.

I'm not purely serious about the game

Honestly not trying to sound rude, but I can tell.

(my whole point is that the game lacks competitive viability, even though it's extremely easy to fix that. As in, "they could patch it in" easy).

Except its already VERY competitively viable, and like you said to Gatlin, and I quote: "Firstly, you have no proof that is true. Don't mention ratios without having an actual number, it makes you look like you don't have a clue what "ratio" even means.", Let me just say: First, you have no proof thats true . Don't mention a games competitive viability without have actually played in or seen the competitive scene, it makes you look you don't have a clue what "competitive viability" even means. Really, a lot of your viewpoints are just straight up lacking in the knowledge that there actually IS counterplay and ways around these things you deem either lacking or too strong once you get into the more technical and higher level parts of the game.

When I play with my family in any game, I always play light-heartedly. And when it comes to IRL friends, I play both lightly and seriously with them. However, when I'm trying to unlock stuff or play online, I'd rather the game not be terribly unbalanced, and I'd rather it not punish me for holding first place. Like I said, options are always good. Even just having the option to turn off rubber banding A.I would be a great thing.

And they generally are. They arent perfect, but once you get better, you start to realize you have more options and can use whats given to you in more ways than initially meets the eye.

 

[ChikoLad]

1. If they did nerf Defensive play, that just makes the game more Offensive, which isnt a bad thing in the slightest, its just different.
2. ESPECIALLY when it comes to how changes will effect high level play, I dont trust the opinions of the reviewers, as generally all those people doing the reviews are casual as ****. A company like GameXplain or something saying that Red Shells are like Blue Shells are playing at an ABYSMALLY lower level than top level players will, and casual players are notoriously horrible at managing items. This doesnt tell me that Defensive play is nonexistant, it tells me item management is going to be really important.
3. Adding more counter play is almost always pro-competitive, not anti competitive, as it forces players to skillfully keep their place/consistently play well as opposed to getting a lead and going 'lol nobody can stop me now since I broke away'.


Ive gotten 1st place shrooms countless times, but due to how rare they are, nobody EVER relies on them, getting one is very rare.


You mean like how MK7 had the ability to make groups online and change what items are allowed and such? Cuz theyve already done that, and theyve had those options offline for a VERY long time as well.


The best way to defend first is to have good lines, no matter how many items you pull or how lucky you get, a player with good lines will still almost always beat the player getting lucky items.

This post is just a bunch of failing to read my points and making assumptions about me that you wouldn't make if you actually read what I am saying. So I'm not even going to bother.

It's clear some people just think Mario Kart is an untouchable holy grail.

 

[Z'zgashi]

This post is just a bunch of failing to read my points and making assumptions about me that you wouldn't make if you actually read what I am saying. So I'm not even going to bother.

It's clear some people just think Mario Kart is an untouchable holy grail.

And this post is you not being able to admit that your opinions are just that, OPINIONS.

And I like how you say 'untouchable holy grail' when I, and Gatlin, have already straight up said the game isnt perfect at least once or twice.

Look, Im done trying to have any sort of debate with you if youre not willing to accept other people have opinions that arent the same as yours. I have tried to be as blunt and obvious about multiple points and I could care less if you want to be too hard headed and not at the least acknowledge that you, as a non competitive player, dont completely understand how this game works at high or top level. If you want to blindly point out what you think are flaws that keep the game from competitive play while actual competitve players are telling you why thats not the case, then I honestly have no words and will no longer continue to try and beat a dead horse.

 

[ChikoLad]

And this post is you not being able to admit that your opinions are just that, OPINIONS.

And I like how you say 'untouchable holy grail' when I, and Gatlin, have already straight up said the game isnt perfect at least once or twice.

Look, Im done trying to have any sort of debate with you if youre not willing to accept other people have opinions that arent the same as yours. I have tried to be as blunt and obvious about multiple points and I could care less if you want to be too hard headed and not at the least acknowledge that you, as a non competitive player, dont completely understand how this game works at high or top level. If you want to blindly point out what you think are flaws that keep the game from competitive play while actual competitve players are telling you why thats not the case, then I honestly have no words and will no longer continue to try and beat a dead horse.

Quit calling me non-competitive. That's exactly WHY I feel YOU'RE hard headed. You're saying that because I criticise the competitive meta-game, I must not be competitive. Sorry, the world is not black and white like that. I do play Mario Kart competitively. Get that through your thick skull, I've made it more than clear that I do. I wouldn't have criticised it's competitive meta game if I didn't play it in that way. It's just like how I criticise both Melee and Brawl, since I play both competitively.

The problem with your opinions are that you don't back them up well, and they are extremely apologetic. You don't counter my points, you damage control them, and when I do present objectivity, you ignore it.

I'm a games designer, and I can tell you that within the profession, bad/flawed game design is definable by objective points. I'm being mostly objective here. Everything I have suggested would only benefit the game for everyone, and they are not extremely drastic changes to boot.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Quit calling me non-competitive. That's exactly WHY I feel YOU'RE hard headed. You're saying that because I criticise the competitive meta-game, I must not be competitive.

Well for one, you straight up said 'I'm not purely serious about the game', but really its not so much being non-competitive so much as lacking the knowledge of top level play. And I dont mean this as a belittling fact, im just noticing that based off your opinion on some things, especially item balance, that you dont fully know all the options or how theyre used at top level, thats all.

Sorry, the world is not black and white like that. I do play Mario Kart competitively. Get that through your thick skull, I've made it more than clear that I do. I wouldn't have criticised it's competitive meta game if I didn't play it in that way.

Playing competitively =/= understanding top level of play. Ive played tons of people in big Melee/Brawl tournaments who hardly know anything about the game theyre playing, but it doesnt mean they arent playing competitively. A lot of people in competitive Mario Kart know the basics/advanced strats and such, but dont fully understand/notice the mindgames that are a part of the game as well. And I dont mean faking people out, I mean getting in peoples' heads when it comes to reading and understanding when items will be used and how without even seeing them in peoples' inventories and such.

The problem with your opinions are that you don't back them up well, and they are extremely apologetic.

Ill admit first hand, Im not the best at explaining things so I try my best not to get into the details unless I know for sure how to put whats in my head into words, but I dont see how theyre apologetic? If anything Id say I was a bit too blunt/harsh lol.

You don't counter my points, you damage control them, and when I do present objectivity, you ignore it.

I feel like Ive been pointing out my points well enough to where the difference in opinion in and of itself should counter your points. If you want me to elaborate, feel free to ask, cuz like I said, Im not the best at explaining things unless I really put thought into it, and if you give me a specific point to think about, I should be able to explain it decently well.
And as for ignoring things, its not so much ignoring so much as me agreeing or not having anything to say against it (more often the first one) so I dont see any need to bring up a point we agree on, or at the least I dont disagree with.

I'm a games designer, and I can tell you that within the profession, bad/flawed game design is definable by objective points. I'm being mostly objective here. Everything I have suggested would only benefit the game for everyone, and they are not extremely drastic changes to boot.

And Im not trying to say all of your points are wrong, Im just saying that theyre not the only way to look at things. Honestly, a lot of what your saying, while it makes sense at some level, is either WAY too harsh or is getting rid of what makes Mario Kart what it is and what MK players enjoy in the series, and is asking to turn it into yet another run of the mill racing game that doesnt have any unique qualities that we the fans love and sets it apart. A main one is random items; while random things are generally not considered very 'competitive', the ENTIRE point and idea of competitive Mario Kart is adaptability, and being thrown into a unique situation ever race is why people love the series competitively.

 

[The Real Gamer]

That's not my problem though. My problem is that this, as a defensive mechanic, is far too luck based. For example, getting a coin from an item box when I'm in first place and already have 10 coins is complete BS, and as GameXplain mentioned, means Red Shells may as well be Blue Shells for 1st place players. Plus, it's redundant, since I can already get plenty of coins on the track. And since getting coins in first place from an item box is extremely common, this is a HUGE flaw in the game's design. It is not rational, and there is no justified reason for it to be like this. And, it's anti-competitive..

I'm going to jump in and highlight why you're line of thinking is backwards here.

1) You seem to be suggesting is that 1st place should automatically have access to defensive items, which would throw off the balance of the game. If this were the case a competent 1st place racer would once again become an impenetrable wall of defenses that can only be stopped by triple Red Shells or the occasional (and even rarer now) Blue Shell. This completely throws off the risk/reward system since 1st place almost always has 0 incentive to be offensive with their item, while those behind 1st are forced to go on the offensive and expose themselves if they have any hope of catching up with you. Basically a 2nd place Red Shell becomes utterly worthless because not only are you giving up your own protection if you throw it, you're also guaranteed that Red Shell will never meet its target. That's unbalanced and poor game design.

2) As I said earlier, this new system now makes item management more important than ever. In this new system every time someone uses a Red Shell, they are exposing themselves. So with this in mind you're now forced to think twice before mindlessly throwing that 2nd place Red Shell since there's no guarantee that you'll get another defensive item in 1st place. Also, perhaps the person in 3rd is trailing YOU with a Red Shell of their own and waiting for you to throw your Red at the person in 1st? This opens up a whole new door in terms of strategy and item management. I fail to see how this is anti-competitive.

3) Despite your rambling about the "OP-ness" of Red Shells in this game you seem to be forgetting the fact that there are still ways around them. There is terrain you can sill take advantage of, and there are defensive items that can still be obtained while in 1st. So the argument that Red Shells = Blue Shells now is just completely false and a massive overreaction.

EDIT: I also want to quickly add that yes there is indeed a luck based factor to the system, but that's completely fine. Not everything has to be 100% skill based. I want to play Mario Kart, not Grand Turismo.

 

[ChikoLad]

@ Z'zgashi

Well for one, you straight up said 'I'm not purely serious about the game'

Yes, because I know how to adjust my playstyle to a social situation. I'm hardly going to be playing super seriously if I happen to end up playing with my little cousins or something.

lacking the knowledge of top level play.

I have the knowledge of top level play. Just because I know how to criticise something, doesn't mean I am not good at the game. I just think there is room for improvement. I don't even find Mario Kart that complex, I feel other kart racers, such as Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed or Crash Team Racing, are much more nuanced and fair. I practice a lot of the same high level skills I use in Mario Kart in those games too. But again - they're just better at being competitive for a variety of reasons, and that's why I think Nintendo should do some more research to improve Mario Kart. I also mentioned how I am a huge fan of Mario Kart Arcade GP, which is by far the best Mario Kart game in terms of competition, since it had many mechanics in place to accommodate for it, and was incredibly.

Ill admit first hand, Im not the best at explaining things so I try my best not to get into the details unless I know for sure how to put whats in my head into words, but I dont see how theyre apologetic? If anything Id say I was a bit too blunt/harsh lol.

I don't mean this in an offensive manner - but you really shouldn't be debating anything if you are unwilling to/feel unable to/struggle to detail your point. At least, you shouldn't have such a negative attitude about it. This makes me even more sure you weren't properly reading/interpreting what I have to say (though I've already shown how that's been the case).

And I didn't mean you were being apologetic towards me, I meant you were being apologetic towards Mario Kart. Saying flawed design choices are OK because "that's just how Mario Kart is" is an apologetic attitude. You're coming up with an excuse for something to be OK, not an actual reason why these decisions make sense from a design standpoint. You're not willing to accept better alternatives to make the game something more people will appreciate.

is getting rid of what makes Mario Kart what it is and what MK players enjoy in the series,

How is bringing back the shield mechanic from Mario Kart Arcade GP "getting rid of what makes Mario Kart what is" when it's from the same franchise?
How is taking a little bit of inspiration from other franchises "getting rid of what makes Mario Kart what is"? If that's the case, you may as well hate the game already, because the anti-gravity is taken right from Crash Nitro Kart. So I guess the game isn't Mario Kart because of that.

-------------------------

@ The Real Gamer

1) You seem to be suggesting is that 1st place should automatically have access to defensive items, which would throw off the balance of the game. If this were the case a competent 1st place racer would once again become an impenetrable wall of defenses that can only be stopped by triple Red Shells or the occasional (and even rarer now) Blue Shell. This completely throws off the risk/reward system since 1st place almost always has 0 incentive to be offensive with their item, while those behind 1st are forced to go on the offensive and expose themselves if they have any hope of catching up with you. Basically a 2nd place Red Shell becomes utterly worthless because not only are you giving up your own protection if you throw it, you're also guaranteed that Red Shell will never meet its target. That's unbalanced and poor game design.

Quote me on where I said "1st place should automatically receive a defensive item". Because I never did. Re-read my posts.

As I said earlier, this new system now makes item management more important than ever. In this new system every time someone uses a Red Shell, they are exposing themselves. So with this in mind you're now forced to think twice before mindlessly throwing that 2nd place Red Shell since there's no guarantee that you'll get another defensive item in 1st place. Also, perhaps the person in 3rd is trailing YOU with a Red Shell of their own and waiting for you to throw your Red at the person in 1st? This opens up a whole new door in terms of strategy and item management. I fail to see how this is anti-competitive.

This is something I've always done and understood myself. I don't have a problem with this. I never use Red Shells on a first place player when I'm playing seriously and I'm not at the very end of the course, because they make for a nice shield, and I could always just pass the 2nd place player with good driving. Plus, they could always get hit by a Blue Shell.

My problem is that first place deserves a more reliable defensive option, or at least, some of the items need tweaking.

For example, getting coins from item boxes at such a common rate is really making Red Shells just as bad as Blue Shells. So how would they fix that? Well:

-They could simply remove the coin as an item box item. This way, a first place player who runs into an item box will always get something useful. Even if it's just a Banana, they could at least block one hit from a minor projectile with it. Giving the player a dud item is just plain jerkish.

-They could reduce the effectiveness of Red Shells. Currently, Red Shells move and home at a quick speed until they hit something, or manage to fall off. This means that they can potentially chase players across half of the track, maybe even the entire track, depending on the course. So instead, they could just make it so Red Shells will eventually stop and become a stationary obstacle if they take too long to hit someone. This would mean that players really have to get close through skillful driving before attempting to target otherwise defenseless players. Driving well would become both the method of offense and the method of defense for Red Shells.

-They could make the coin an item you can drop behind you. If it hits a projectile that's just about to hit you, you'd block it. Do it too early, and the coin will already have become like the normal stage prop ones, and items will phase through them. Not only that, but your opponents would be able to collect the coin itself, increasing their speed and their chances of getting ahead of you.

Doing any one of these things would fix the "1st place Coin" problem, and would hardly drastically alter the game's feel, it would just encourage more skill in the usage of these items, and would make 1st place a more fair position to be in.

Despite your rambling about the "OP-ness" of Red Shells in this game you seem to be forgetting the fact that there are still ways around them. There is terrain you can sill take advantage of, and there are defensive items that can still be obtained while in 1st. So the argument that Red Shells = Blue Shells now is just completely false and a massive overreaction.

Except for the fact that while item boxes are still random, they mostly give you coins in 1st place anyway.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Quote me on where I said "1st place should automatically receive a defensive item". Because I never did. Re-read my posts.

You have been implying that any item that can't block incoming attacks (coins) = unfair for 1st place.

This is something I've always done and understood myself. I don't have a problem with this. I never use Red Shells on a first place player when I'm playing seriously and I'm not at the very end of the course, because they make for a nice shield, and I could always just pass the 2nd place player with good driving. Plus, they could always get hit by a Blue Shell.

Thank you for proving my point. The reward for taking out the 1st place player isn't always greater than the risk of losing your main line of defense, which makes the Red Shell a fair trade for both parties involved.

For example, getting coins from item boxes at such a common rate is really making Red Shells just as bad as Blue Shells.

Please stop saying this. I'm having a hard time taking the rest of your argument seriously when I just stated why this isn't the case in my previous post.

-They could simply remove the coin as an item box item. This way, a first place player who runs into an item box will always get something useful. Even if it's just a Banana, they could at least block one hit from a minor projectile with it. Giving the player a dud item is just plain jerkish.

Once again, you are implying that 1st place should only have access to items that they can use to defend themselves (bananna, green shell, super horn, etc), and I've already explained why this would be broken in the context of this game.

They could reduce the effectiveness of Red Shells. Currently, Red Shells move and home at a quick speed until they hit something, or manage to fall off. This means that they can potentially chase players across half of the track, maybe even the entire track, depending on the course. So instead, they could just make it so Red Shells will eventually stop and become a stationary obstacle if they take too long to hit someone. This would mean that players really have to get close through skillful driving before attempting to target otherwise defenseless players. Driving well would become both the method of offense and the method of defense for Red Shells.

So if someone pulls out to an early, sizable lead then you basically have no way of touching them... Yeah I won't even bother explaining how blatantly broken this would be lol.

They could make the coin an item you can drop behind you. If it hits a projectile that's just about to hit you, you'd block it. Do it too early, and the coin will already have become like the normal stage prop ones, and items will phase through them. Not only that, but your opponents would be able to collect the coin itself, increasing their speed and their chances of getting ahead of you.

Here we go again. You want 1st place to have non-stop access to items that can potentially block incoming attacks. You're repeating yourself.

Doing any one of these things would fix the "1st place Coin" problem, and would hardly drastically alter the game's feel, it would just encourage more skill in the usage of these items, and would make 1st place a more fair position to be in.

All you're doing is taking a mechanic you think is broken and replacing it with even more broken mechanics... Making Red Shells stop travelling after a certain distance... seriously?

 

[ChikoLad]

^If you want me to continue this, make a worthy point. All I'm getting from you is "duh encouraging skill on both the offensive and defensive side is broken". With absolutely no solid proof. Maybe you just think these things would be broken because you can't actually drive that well in the game?

And I didn't say getting items that can't be used for defense in first place is unfair. I said getting a completely useless item is, and the coin is redundant anyway, as you can get them as their own separate thing without going for item boxes anyway. Coins have absolutely no reason to be an item box item.

 

[The Real Gamer]

^If you want me to continue this, make a worthy point.

Pot meet kettle.

All I'm getting from you is "duh encouraging skill on both the offensive and defensive side is broken". With absolutely no solid proof.

...Huh? You have yet to actually address any of my arguments.

Maybe you just think these things would be broken because you can't actually drive that well in the game?

Nice ad-hominem. When you can't attack the argument, attack the person. Well played, sir.

And I didn't say getting items that can't be used for defense in first place is unfair. I said getting a completely useless item is, and the coin is redundant anyway, as you can get them as their own separate thing without going for item boxes anyway. Coins have absolutely no reason to be an item box item.

And for the 1 billionth time you think the coin is a "worthless" item because IT CANNOT BLOCK INCOMING ATTACKS.

 

[Gatlin]

You may not be trying to sound apologetic. But you are being apologetic.

I'm not being overly-critical, and my opinions on competitive Mario Kart are far from uncommon. I still look forward to Mario Kart 8, and I've given it plenty of credit. It's the first Mario Kart I've ever been hyped for and followed before it's release. I still have things I think they are taking too long to address, though. Again, Mario Kart is not a holy grail. We're allowed to criticise it.

As I have said several times, yes, you are free to criticize it.

That's not my problem though. My problem is that this, as a defensive mechanic, is far too luck based. For example, getting a coin from an item box when I'm in first place and already have 10 coins is complete BS, and as GameXplain mentioned, means Red Shells may as well be Blue Shells for 1st place players.

Just like getting a Blooper in 8th place in MKW was complete BS as well, lol. No one actually cared enough to make a huge deal out of it, though. If you were playing mkw and got a fib in 1st place and the person behind you got red shells, then oh well that was game over for you. If you get a coin in 1st place and the person behind you gets red shells, then again that's game over for you, lol. Get a good item and catch back up and hit them with items to get your 1st place back. If 1st place just got to have all these constant defenses, then it would be so lame. I mean, they gave you a horn in first place to stop blue shells from hitting you, that's already up'ing the defense compared to previous Mario Kart titles by a substantial amount.

Plus, it's redundant, since I can already get plenty of coins on the track. And since getting coins in first place from an item box is extremely common, this is a HUGE flaw in the game's design. It is not rational, and there is no justified reason for it to be like this. And, it's anti-competitive.

With the horn item alone, I feel the coin should be there to add more balance, lol. If 1st place couldn't get coins in 1st, and they could get defensive items and the horn, then 1st place would be the most OP thing I have ever seen.

I have literally never, ever received a Mushroom in first place, and I've played plenty of Mario Kart DS and Mario Kart Wii. If this is going to be possible in Mario Kart 8, but is rare, it's still a problem.

I didn't play much DS; but speaking from a MKW stand point, mushrooms are possible in first.

Again, it's a matter of luck, not skill.

With Mario Kart, I feel it is broken down to be about 15% luck, 85% skill.

The 15% luck comes simply from which items you get from the item boxes and how they affect your current position.

The 85% skill comes from how you use those items to your advantage, how you adapt your racing after getting those items, and generally how well your lines and knowledge of the track are.

Mario Kart isn't as luck-based as some people like to make it out to be.

I'm aware first place is not invincible. And it should not be. But there should be a consistent means of defense that don't rely so heavily on your luck from item boxes. Again, Mario Kart Arcade GP had this, and was a much more com

Again, 1st place now has an actual item to stop blue shells with ease, on top of the ability to receive bananas and shells to block items from behind. The coin needs to be there for balance so 1st place actually can be touched.

And while carrying powerful items into first place is fine when I'm trying to get into first place at the beginning of a race, if you mean to say I should pull back into an earlier place intentionally to get better items, after holding a first place for a long time - again, that's terrible design.

That's not what I meant at all, and I never mentioned this at all.

Again, it all depends on what track you are playing on.

If you are playing on a sandbagging track, and you try and front run and try to stay in 1st the entire time, 9/10 you will lose, badly. You need to drop back for a good item at the start of the race, and then go all out at the end of the race. If you are holding first place for a long time on a sandbagging track, there is a good reason as to why, lol. No one is catching up to you because they are all holding their items and not using them until the end.

If you are playing on a front running track and holding onto first for a long time, then by all means, continuing holding onto first and don't drop back for an item.

If that's the case, why is it I always see people saying Mario Kart needs a lot of improvement to become more competitively viable?

I dunno. I know dozens and dozens of competitive players who are all very content with how the game is, myself included.

Taking inspiration from other games does not mean copying them exactly and losing uniqueness. You can take inspiration from something, but develop it and add your own thing to it. Heck, your point here is completely invalid, when you consider Mario Kart 8 does this in one aspect:

Crash Nitro Kart was doing anti-gravity kart racing long before Mario Kart got to it. At first, I thought they were ripping the off Crash entirely. But then, they revealed the Spin Boost, which is looking to be an incredibly nuanced mechanic that will benefit Mario Kart as a whole.

That's not what we were talking about, though. That is taking inspiration for track design, not item mechanics. My point is still very valid as Mario Kart's random item roulette is still active and will continue to be active. If the developers want to take inspiration from other games for cool track designs, then by all means go for it.

Firstly, you have no proof that is true. Don't mention ratios without having an actual number, it makes you look like you don't have a clue what "ratio" even means.

I know it's true simply from the responses in this thread so far, lol. From what I can tell, you are the only one to have a problem with how the items work in Mario Kart.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Again, 1st place now has an actual item to stop blue shells with ease, on top of the ability to receive bananas and shells to block items from behind. The coin needs to be there for balance so 1st place actually can be touched..

This is really all that needs to be said here... If Sonic can't figure out why this should be the case then this is a waste of time.

 

[Sxips]

So does anybody want to play Mario Kart 7 in the meantime.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I'd love to, but I have work in an hour, then work all day tomorrow... And then a bunch of **** to do on Sunday.

 

[ChikoLad]

...Huh? You have yet to actually address any of my arguments.

...Huh? You have yet to address mine though. So I have none of your counter arguments to address. All you did was say my suggestions were broken without rhyme or reason.

Nice ad-hominem. When you can't attack the argument, attack the person. Well played, sir.

I didn't make an attack, I made a deduction.

If you are blindly calling my suggestions that enhance the skill factor involved in Mario Kart "broken" without properly explaining yourself, I can only deduce that you don't have good grasp on how to play the game well without totally relying on the items you get.

And for the 1 billionth time you think the coin is a "worthless" item because IT CANNOT BLOCK INCOMING ATTACKS.

Are you seriously trying to tell me what I think? Are you that desperate to feel "right"?

The coin item is worthless because it is redundant, period. The max cap for coins is 10, and it's more than possible to reach that in less than a minute. Getting coins in first serves no purpose whatsoever, even taking defensive capabilities out of the question. And the coins are not even that big a factor in the race to begin with, so they hardly needed to become an item as well as regular collectibles.

You're acting as if getting coins in first place is part of what makes Mario Kart "THE CROWNING ACHIEVEMENT OF COMPETITIVE KART RACING GAMES", when it's actually one of the huge factors preventing it from reaching such a status.

Just like getting a Blooper in 8th place in MKW was complete BS as well, lol. No one actually cared enough to make a huge deal out of it, though. If you were playing mkw and got a fib in 1st place and the person behind you got red shells, then oh well that was game over for you. If you get a coin in 1st place and the person behind you gets red shells, then again that's game over for you, lol. Get a good item and catch back up and hit them with items to get your 1st place back. If 1st place just got to have all these constant defenses, then it would be so lame. I mean, they gave you a horn in first place to stop blue shells from hitting you, that's already up'ing the defense compared to previous Mario Kart titles by a substantial amount.

I'm talking about the competitive scene though. This is a casual mindset. I adopt this mindset when playing casually. When I'm playing seriously, or to unlock stuff, that BS shouldn't happen. Again, other kart racers manage to achieve this through item balance and through giving you options such as disabling/enabling rubber band A.I, depending on your preference.

With the horn item alone, I feel the coin should be there to add more balance, lol. If 1st place couldn't get coins in 1st, and they could get defensive items andthe horn, then 1st place would be the most OP thing I have ever seen.

Except for the fact that nearly half the items can go right through the regular defensive items anyway, so removing the coin WOULDN'T make first place OP to begin with. It'd merely give them a fighting chance. They wouldn't even have a slight advantage. Something tells me you really didn't think that statement through.

I didn't play much DS; but speaking from a MKW stand point, mushrooms are possible in first.

But if they are rare to the point where some players can say they have NEVER received a mushroom in first in the history of their play time, then they are not a reliable defense tool.

If you are playing on a sandbagging track, and you try and front run and try to stay in 1st the entire time, 9/10 you will lose, badly. You need to drop back for a good item at the start of the race, and then go all out at the end of the race. If you are holding first place for a long time on a sandbagging track, there is a good reason as to why, lol. No one is catching up to you because they are all holding their items and not using them until the end.

I don't agree with heavy sandbagging tracks to begin with though, as they are the anti-thesis of what any racing game should be. They completely kill the flow of the race, and make the races feel more like Battle Mode. If I want to play Battle Mode, I'll play Battle Mode.

Again, 1st place now has an actual item to stop blue shells with ease, on top of the ability to receive bananas and shells to block items from behind. The coin needs to be there for balance so 1st place actually can be touched.

You contradict yourself to a hilarious degree here.

You emphasised that Mario Kart is about knowing how to utilise the items you do get and playing mind games with opponents.
Yet now, you are saying that a mere banana and the very rare Super Horn makes 1st place invincible? Whatever happened to playing mind games and utilising items well to breach 1st place defenses? That's forgetting the amount of really powerful items that single bananas and shells can't counter to begin with (Blue Shell, Starman, Bullet Bill, Triple Shells, Super Leaf, Pirahna Plant, Boomerang, Bob-Omb, etc). So no, removing the coin would not make first place invincible in the slightest. If you think so, then I find it hard to believe you're as experienced as you claim you are in this game.

I dunno. I know dozens and dozens of competitive players who are all very content with how the game is, myself included.

Are you sure ye are really competitive, though?

That's not what we were talking about, though. That is taking inspiration for track design, not item mechanics. My point is still very valid as Mario Kart's random item roulette is still active and will continue to be active. If the developers want to take inspiration from other games for cool track designs, then by all means go for it.

No, the anti-gravity effects track design, changes your spacial perspective, and changes the physics, just like in Crash Nitro Kart (oh, and the way the wheels flip over is exactly like Crash Nitro Kart too - this is merely cosmetic, but worth noting). So by your logic, Mario Kart has lost it's uniqueness, especially since your original statement said that you believed taking inspiration from other kart racers at all makes Mario Kart a lesser game. But that's just not the case, and that extends to item balancing. There is nothing wrong with adding more depth to how items are used. The best games are simple to play and enjoy, but difficult to master. With the over-reliance on luck Mario Kart has, it isn't difficult to master since your skill at the game only takes you so far. No matter what, Lady Luck needs to be on your side, but that shouldn't be such a necessity. There really should be options to make the game more skill focused in both single player and multiplayer.

I know it's true simply from the responses in this thread so far, lol. From what I can tell, you are the only one to have a problem with how the items work in Mario Kart.

Even if three apologetic people feel things don't need to be adjusted at all, that doesn't mean their stance is backed up very well. Especially since I merely think these things should be added as options, and not as the end all-be all. If you seriously are against these things being added as options for those who would prefer the game be tweaked in that way, while still being able to play the game the normal luck based way, then I'm sorry, but that makes you selfish and close minded, and makes you just as bad as the people who think Smash Bros shouldn't have the ability to turn items off.

 

[IsmaR]

I get off of work for the weekend in about 30 minutes. Would be down to play then.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lol Im so done, this is just sad now. This just depresses me:

Except for the fact that nearly half the items can go right through the regular defensive items anyway, so removing the coin WOULDN'T make first place OP to begin with. It'd merely give them a fighting chance. They wouldn't even have a slight advantage. Something tells me you really didn't think that statement through.

You sit here and complain about how we give no counter arguments, and yet the Real Gamer and Gatlin explain why this isnt a problem on AT LEAST 5 DIFFERENT OCCASIONS and you just blatantly ignore them and then finish your ignorant statement off with 'Something tells me you really didn't think that statement through'... Like... What?
And I feel like I have to respond to this because... Well I dont know I just do:

Yes, because I know how to adjust my playstyle to a social situation. I'm hardly going to be playing super seriously if I happen to end up playing with my little cousins or something.

Good for you. Dont see how this applies at all to this discussion at all, but good for you. /inb4youturnthisintoanaccusationorsomething

I have the knowledge of top level play.

Just like how those kids who can beat their friends think theyre the best at smash bros amiright? I can tell based off your judgement on certain items and such that you definitely arent as knowledgeable as you think you are. Once again, not an insult, just a fact.

Just because I know how to criticise something, doesn't mean I am not good at the game.

You can criticize all you like, but youre straight up calling out faults that either arent there or are FAR LESS BAD than you make then out to be, thats what we're saying.

I just think there is room for improvement.

And guess what? NOBODY DISAGREES WITH YOU ON THIS!!

I don't even find Mario Kart that complex

And it's statements like these that make your other statements like this completely moot:

I have the knowledge of top level play.

lol

I feel other kart racers, such as Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed or Crash Team Racing, are much more nuanced and fair.

And just so you dont keep whining that I keep ignoring you, I agree with you here on at least the Sonic one since I havent played the Crash game.

I practice a lot of the same high level skills I use in Mario Kart in those games too. But again - they're just better at being competitive for a variety of reasons, and that's why I think Nintendo should do some more research to improve Mario Kart.

And here I disagree with you. Mario Kart is competitive in a different way than other racers. Other racers are pretty much straight up lines with minimal other things, Mario Kart is lines + mindgames + item management. And before you try and say those other games have items too, THATS NOT WHAT IM SAYING, what Im saying is items in other racers arent anywhere near as gamechanging as Mario Kart, so they arent anywhere NEAR as big a focus in Mario Kart, AND THATS NOT A BAD THING, its just DIFFERENT and makes MK a more UNIQUE racing title.

I also mentioned how I am a huge fan of Mario Kart Arcade GP, which is by far the best Mario Kart game in terms of competition, since it had many mechanics in place to accommodate for it, and was incredibly.

Never played that one, but I dont see how this relates at all considering the fact that you didnt even give any reasons at all for why you think its better, you just said 'I like it better cuz it has better mechanics'. If you want this statement to actually MEAN SOMETHING, than explain how the mechanics are better and why.

I don't mean this in an offensive manner - but you really shouldn't be debating anything if you are unwilling to/feel unable to/struggle to detail your point.

Its not that so much as if I were to try and explain every single detail it would take me hours to make any post. Ill give you the basics reasonings, if you want further explanation, then ask me to elaborate, easy as that.

At least, you shouldn't have such a negative attitude about it. This makes me even more sure you weren't properly reading/interpreting what I have to say (though I've already shown how that's been the case).

Im pretty sure you havent been interpreting large portions of our posts as well, since you keep bringing up points which we've already explained countless times.

And I didn't mean you were being apologetic towards me, I meant you were being apologetic towards Mario Kart. Saying flawed design choices are OK because "that's just how Mario Kart is" is an apologetic attitude. You're coming up with an excuse for something to be OK, not an actual reason why these decisions make sense from a design standpoint. You're not willing to accept better alternatives to make the game something more people will appreciate.

Mario Kart has problems, I agree, but some of the changes youre asking to make would remove the series' identity entirely, and some of them are just beyond extreme asking to remove non-problematic things. KEYWORD SOME. I swear to god if you try to turn this into me thinking Im talking about everything again by saying this... lol.

How is bringing back the shield mechanic from Mario Kart Arcade GP "getting rid of what makes Mario Kart what is" when it's from the same franchise?

1. Never played that game so no idea what youre talking about.
2. I NEVER said ANYTHING AT ALL about a shield mechanic. Up until now I never even used the word Shield. I didnt say anything at all about this, so that just means I have no input on it, not that I think its dumb or whatever youre thinking.

How is taking a little bit of inspiration from other franchises "getting rid of what makes Mario Kart what is"?

I never said anything at all about taking inspiration from other games, I dont mind it at all honestly, so I dont see where youre getting this crazy idea that Im against this or soemthing.

If that's the case, you may as well hate the game already, because the anti-gravity is taken right from Crash Nitro Kart. So I guess the game isn't Mario Kart because of that.

lmao what are you talking about

 

[ChikoLad]

...Dude, you SERIOUSLY don't know how to debate.

Most of that was waffling and getting angry over nothing, but I'll answer the parts where some sort of constructive point can be established:

You sit here and complain about how we give no counter arguments, and yet the Real Gamer and Gatlin explain why this isnt a problem on AT LEAST 5 DIFFERENT OCCASIONS and you just blatantly ignore them and then finish your ignorant statement off with 'Something tells me you really didn't think that statement through'... Like... What?

But their arguments were inadequate, apologetic, and lacked substance.

And it's statements like these that make your other statements like this completely moot:

No, because complexity is subjective. Some people are just inherently better at grasping certain things than others. I understand Mario Kart and it's nuances perfectly fine, but even though I do, I didn't find it difficult to reach that level, and didn't find them complex. Maybe you had a more difficult time of it, but I didn't.

And here I disagree with you. Mario Kart is competitive in a different way than other racers. Other racers are pretty much straight up lines with minimal other things, Mario Kart is lines + mindgames + item management. And before you try and say those other games have items too, THATS NOT WHAT IM SAYING, what Im saying is items in other racers arent anywhere near as gamechanging as Mario Kart, so they arent anywhere NEAR as big a focus in Mario Kart, AND THATS NOT A BAD THING, its just DIFFERENT and makes MK a more UNIQUE racing title.

This is just flat out wrong. In fact, I'd argue other kart racers pay more attention to their item line-up than Mario Kart, as they apply their items much better. And other racers have WAAAAY more mind games than Mario Kart.

Mario Kart has problems, I agree, but the changes youre asking to make would remove the series' identity entirely, and some of them are just beyond extreme asking to remove non-problematic things. KEYWORD SOME. I swear to god if you try to turn this into me thinking Im talking about everything again by saying this... lol.

I dare you to quote me on where I said they should remove anything, and never provided an alternative.

Also, recall that I said everything I have suggested should be optional. I don't just think of myself, see?

Never played that one, but I dont see how this relates at all considering the fact that you didnt even give any reasons at all for why you think its better, you just said 'I like it better cuz it has better mechanics'. If you want this statement to actually MEAN SOMETHING, than explain how the mechanics are better and why.

The only reason I didn't say why was because I figured big MK fans would have at least looked into this game at some point, plus not all of my reasons for liking Arcade GP 2 (I just double checked, and it was the second one that I played) so much are related to this discussion, but I mainly like it most because:

-Best kinaesthetics in a Mario Kart game
-Best item balancing in a Mario Kart game, it's item balance was about as good as Sonic Transformed, if not better (it had issues with having to re-skin some staple Mario Kart items for some reason, but this did not effect gameplay, and if they were to take cues from Mario Kart Arcade GP's item balancing, they would not have to carry over re-skins)
-A.I rubber banding wasn't as bad
-Has a shield mechanic, meaning all players have the potential to block some items without needing items. It requires practice to use properly though, as it only activates when you hit the brake pedal. The brake pedal is also how you drift, so it activates while drifting, meaning it was most effective during turns. Using it on straights required you to slow down, so you really had to know how to bait incoming threats in order to block them without slowing down.
-Fastest pace of all Mario Kart games

I don't think mainstream Mario Kart games have to turn into the Arcade GP series, but certain aspects of it could be beneficial, as options.

I never said anything at all about taking inspiration from other games, I dont mind it at all honestly, so I dont see where youre getting this crazy idea that Im against this or soemthing.

And yet you claim it shouldn't take inspiration from other racers while also completely disregarding how other racers actually play:

And here I disagree with you. Mario Kart is competitive in a different way than other racers. Other racers are pretty much straight up lines with minimal other things, Mario Kart is lines + mindgames + item management. And before you try and say those other games have items too, THATS NOT WHAT IM SAYING, what Im saying is items in other racers arent anywhere near as gamechanging as Mario Kart, so they arent anywhere NEAR as big a focus in Mario Kart, AND THATS NOT A BAD THING, its just DIFFERENT and makes MK a more UNIQUE racing title.

--------

Anyway, I'm done. I only made a few little suggestions, but apparently it's blasphemy, and people aren't willing to be civil and reasonable.

I'm still buying MK8 next week and it will be great, but I just think a few things should be patched, that's all, and I don't feel any of them (aside from the "Coin in first place" thing) need to be anything more than optional features.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Just fyi, Im not mad, I use caps to accentuate.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Will this argument ever come to an end? It's getting rather ridiculous now.

 

[Substitution]

Well, knowing how this is a text based argument on the Internet of all places.
It could go either way.

 

[IsmaR]

Karts go fast.

Rainbow Road is pretty.

Items are fun.

 

[Substitution]

Bikes are the way to go.
They're far superior over your feeble excuses for a bike.

 

[IsmaR]

Get out.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Will this argument ever come to an end? It's getting rather ridiculous now.

lol yeah Im just not even going to bother anymore.

Also, ATVs > ALL

 

[Substitution]

I love you too IsmaR.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

There has been some mixed feelings with the inside drifting bikes for Mario Kart 8, seeing as they're not quite as effective as in Mario Kart Wii. I saw various videos involving them, and at times I've seen where they have their flaws, so it makes me wonder if outside drifting would be a better option this time.

Of course, all inside drifting vehicle bodies have the worst traction of any vehicle body, so that does add to the issue.

 

[ChikoLad]

Bikes are the way to go.
They're far superior over your feeble excuses for a bike.

...???

-----

Regarding the debate, I never thought it would blow up or be "depressing", and I enjoy discussing game mechanics in detail, so I didn't mean any harm. But there really is no reason to continue it. While I feel we shouldn't have to censor discussion (within reason), especially in a "General" thread, I'll make an exception here. When the game comes out and I've played it enough, I'll probably make a post praising and criticising it accordingly and that will be it. I'm sure I'll like it enough to play online a lot and to record plenty of footage of it, though.

 

[Substitution]

...???

What I'm saying is that bikes are cool.
Case and point, is there a kart that looks just as majestic as the Mr. Scooty?
I think not.