Mario in Teams (2 vs 2) What can he do when paired with _____? (Current: Bowser)

[mariofanpm12]

Hi! It is my pleasure to introduce the Mario team battles thread! In this thread, we shall discuss how Mario plays in team battles, and how well he performs with any given character.

Doubles are a far deeper and more complicated thing than singles. There are 4 characters on-screen at a time, all trying to perform techs, rack up damage, support their partners, and get KOs. Singles matchups can potentially fly out the window in teams, where having a bad matchup against a given character can change drastically depending on who you are paired with.

Here are some questions and topics for discussion when discussing how well Mario performs with a teammate...

Overall Team Style
Aggressive-Both characters are offense-oriented, rushing in for attacks and applying pressure, generally ignoring weaknesses.
Defensive-Both characters are defensive and try to force approaches from the opposing team, playing reactionary.
Tag Team-The team plays in a manner that works off of eachothers' strengths. For example, one character who is good at racking damage and another who deals with KOing, or a fast character who can combo that sets up opportunies for stronger characters to deal hits.
Semi-Orientated-One member of the team plays aggressively, while the other stays back and supports them, usually via projectiles and such.

Team Roles
The Finisher-The teammate who scores the kills with powerful kill moves after the opponents' damages are high.
Damage Racker- The one who uses combos and quick attacks to rack up damage on the enemy, getting them in range of KO.
Supporter-The character who stays back and supports with projectiles and other means.
Stock Holder-Keeps stocks high for the team, thus keeping the opposing team on their toes.
Positioner-The character baits out mistakes and uses techs that get the opposing team in disadvantages positions in the match, including off-stage.
Multitasker-The character who can reliably carry out the roles of all the above whenever need be.

Support
Do Mario and the teammate support eachother well, sharing opposite weakness that cover eachother?

Weaknesses
Does Mario and his partner share similar weaknesses? This can pose a problem.

Specialties
Anything special that should be noted about the team? Any significant similarities or weakness, or just something unique about the two that helps?

How It Works
We'll take this one character at a time. The next character depends onw hat everyone thinks. We'll change every few days, or after enough discussion has taken place.

Mario

For the first character, why not discuss how Mario pairs with himself? Think of a mirror match, except the opposing Mario is actually helping you. Two Capes and two FLUDDS will surely make a difference in this team. Let the discussion commence!​

Luigi​

Second for discussion is Mario's bro Luigi. We've already figured out some nice tricks the two can pull together like cape **** and such... let's take the discussion further, shall we?

Peach​

Mario and Princess Peach would appear to be the perfect couple for fans, but how do they fare together in a real Brawl?

Bowser​

-Inspired by the ZELDA Boards

 

[hippiedude92]

Did you exactly steal this from Zelda boards? LOL. At least give'em credit for the format.

And are you actually gonna update this? Cause threads like these die due to inactivity... just sayin;

 

[fromundaman]

You should also select a character to discuss if you want this to work...

 

[Veggi]

We are discussing Mario right now, lol.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Well, I was gonna revive my thread soon, but this works too.

 

[mariofanpm12]

the currnet discussion is mario... as in how do 2 marios work in teams

 

[Mario_ 101]

Well 2 Mario's would mean gimps altogether would be more effective. But they share the same weaknesses so yeah... >_>

 

[Veggi]

It's not that I'm trying to ignore your topic, but this team is really hard to say anything about. XD

However, Mario=**** so Mario x2 would be **** x2.

 

[mariofanpm12]

double the capes

 

[ThatGuy]

Sounds nice on paper, but I don't think double Mario is an effective team. They are too slow in movement (or lack the range to make up for it), have very few reasonable methods to save their partner if necessary, and would probably get zoned out way too easily by teams who actually try to compliment their weaknesses. They might be decent at double teaming someone though.

 

[Matt07]

Hmm...there's not that much activity for this thread . Maybe we should perhaps move onto another character? Unless you still want more input.

 

[PK-ow!]

Double character teams always face inherent difficulty. For one, either opponent doesn't have to switch registers to deal with your tools. He just has to notice what defines you as players.

And the other problem. Since you have the same character, you're going to have the same intuitions for some situations that put you in a 2 v 1 (such as an edgeguard when an opponent is on respawn). If you don't plan these out, you get in each other's way.


You also instantiate an overarching problem that I've been theorizing (quietly) about... and that is, that both of your characters play at the same range. Obviously, since you're the same, your characters have all the same properties. Since you have all the same properties, you have the same property that you operate at mid-close range, and that you play a pressure game (or whatever). Overlapping in your desire for board position is not a good thing, since you of course can't stand in the same place.


In general, I think copy teams are bad. There's no way these weaknesses and difficulties could ever be worth anything you gain. Not even the raw power from Snake or MK.

But there's one thing I'm sure of, and it's that starting the talk with the copy situation is probably not a good idea. I am certain that, like dittos in 1v1, this form of matchup needs its own format of discussion. And people aren't that good at it yet (good at talking about it).

Talk about Luigi next. Lul. It would actually be relevant to me.

 

[ThatGuy]

Double MK is a very viable team. Ambrose and KingAce were able to beat Ally and HolyNightmare at OBScene grand finals using them (every other combination they used lost :/).

 

[vato_break]

i say we do pit next..

 

[mariofanpm12]

alright moving on... who next? luigi?

PK-ow! do you mind if I use your post as part of the description?

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

...Do Ness.

Srsly.

 

[:mad:]

Vato and Skyler would gimp their own teammate. Never. Do Ness last.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario and Luigi...I dunno why, people think they're solid teammates. I guess they are.

Fireball camping together is pretty cool, and so is grab release Up-B cape **** in 2v1. They both have tools to save each other from gimps like fireballs, LuigiN-air/Mario D-air. And their comboing abilities are very helpful for each other. Just don't do this team vs a double ddd pls.

But all in all Mario and Luigi seem to both have several things that the other doesn't have, so they work out pretty well...

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Vato and Skyler would gimp their own teammate. Never. Do Ness last.

But I'm teaming with a Ness soon... D:

Mushbound ftw.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

My Opinions for if they fight low tiers on 2 vs 2:

They'll do OK on teams. if both of them takes on low tiers like Bowser, Ike, Captain Falcon, Yoshi, Samus, Link, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, PKMN Trainer, Ness, Lucas, and possibly Zelda and Mario, Mario and Luigi should have the advantage, it's a done deal if they fight low tiers due to good projectiles, a good ground game, aerial game and nice combos. Mario and Luigi is able to **** low tiers depends how the way they play against them, it should be an easy win for them. Everyone should know what to do to beat them, Mario and Luigi got good match ups to fight them.

My Opinions for if they fight med tiers on 2 vs 2:

It's a little challenging, Fox and Wolf is worthy opponents and challenging opponents b/c they got the lasers, good smashes, but some players likes spam the laser and spam smashes to easy wins, I would recommend Mario and Luigi to spam back with fireballs, play defensively, and do a lot of shield grabs because Fox loves to do aerials 24/7, you can easily shield grab, they always relies on aerials while Wolf sticks on his ground game. Wolf's recovery kinda sucks b/c you can edgehog it easily, Mario players needs to focus on Fox's Side B and time it correctly to cape it. Sheik and Sonic, OK, they both are weak and light, but fast, Sonic has no projectile, Mario and Luigi can spam fireballs to stop his Side-B, and down-B attacks, everyone knows Sonic sucks at power but he can be annoying to run around a lot. Make sure you grab Sonic after he does his spring jump so he won't make it back to the stage. Hmm.. Sheik have OK power but it's not good comparing to Mario and Luigi's power, Sheik shares half of her characteristics w/ Sonic, lack of power and being a light weight. Sheik's projectile is OK but Mario can cape that and reflects it back to her. Sheik's recovery ain't that gud if you edgehog her. Peach is challenging if someone picks her for team battle due to her annoying attacks, lol. Peach is that good to fight off Mario and Luigi but I don't know to explain it. Luigi on the opposing team to vs. Mario and Luigi can be a problem, possibility off steal moves and do the same thing you do. Fighting a D.K player in team brawl is a threat because D.K can play defensively and shield grab your aerials and watch everything what you do. I'll just spam fireballs, pressuring him and put him up into aerial attacks and combos. Fighting off a Pit player, challenging as well, arrows and having fast smashes, **** Pit with your aerial combos and use the cape and fireballs very wisely. Fighting Toon Link in team brawl w/ Mario and Luigi, I would rely on the cape every time after I finish off a combo and roll dodge back to do it and Luigi can finish him off w/ a smash. Fighting a ZSS player, wow, she got better range, of course, her neutral B, down A smash, and her side B is very annoying, I would put pressure on her and put pressure on her aerial game, her aerial game ain't that good comparing to Mario and Luigi's aerial game and besides she's a light weight, but I won't underestimate her and edgehog her good to ****, lol. Fighting Lucario, idk about that, srry, lol.

My Opinions for if they fight high tiers on 2 vs 2:

Omg, it's hard and players will spam. Fighting a Kirby w/ Mario and Luigi, his ground game is very good, I would possibly camp on him and spam fireballs and cape his Up-B because Kirby can make tons of combos on ground and air as well. The annoying part is that some Kirby players will take your costume and use your B button moves to annoy you which possibly that you can lose a match just like that to him. Fighting a ROB player, that's easy, **** his aerial game, spam fireballs, and cape his projectiles. Fighting IC player, omg, CGs! All I can say is separate them and camp them, try to play defensively and avoid them to jump and kill the ICs player partner first depends on who it is and finish off the ICs player last. Olimar players, it's super hard to beat them on 2 vs 2 w/ Mario and Luigi, over-powered Pikmins, lol. Fighting off a Pikachu player, well, it's an OK matchup, spam fireballs, use the cape and FLUDD wisely on him and DI his down A smash. Fighting a Mr. G&W player, wow, his moves got hax in SSBB, lol, jk. But really, his moves is too powerful, Mr.G&W got the advantage over Mario and Luigi on an 2 vs 2, the matchup is too difficult to handle b/c he got the better ground and aerial game then both of the brothers. Fighting off Marth players in team brawl, it's very obvious that Marth players is gonna aerials 24/7, just shield grab him and put him into a combo. Spamming projectiles would annoy Marth players and edgehogging him, Mario and Luigi would stand a chance to fight Marth players. Fighting King Dedede, a slight advantage in 2 vs 2, but a huge disadventage in on an 1 on 1. DDD is a huge target in 2 vs 2, no matter what due to his weight, you can **** him good in team brawl w/ your aerials and fireballs, DDD players barely to do CGs in team brawl, your partner need to assist you to break the CG so you can go back into ****** him again w/ your combos. Fighting a Diddy Kong player on team brawl, counter him w/ his bananas, sometimes Diddy Kong players won't use his bananas b/c they don't want to put their partner at risk to trip over his bananas. Diddy Kong wants space to get bananas out, whenever you do, stay on Diddy Kong, don't ever camp him, don't jump his partner, you should jump on Diddy Kong to take him out 1st. Fighting Falco players, too obvious to know, they can't CGs Mario and Luigi, Luigi is floaty and Mario can easily break it w/ Up-B. Mario and Luigi can **** his aerial game, Falco is very annoying into spamming laser 24/7, but Mario and Luigi can handle that b/c Mario and Luigi can do better combos than Falco. It would be a spammy 2 vs 2 when a player picks Falco, fireballs vs laser. I don't know what to say about Wario, Mario and Luigi seems good to fight Wario in team brawl. Fighting off Snake, OK, you know Snake is dead meat when he's at 0%, take him on combos, try to have some spacing so you spam fireballs to back yourself up, play slow on Snake and watch his every move but you keep your guard up b/c Snake got a lot of ideas to create combos and kills his opponents w/ over powered attacks. Take advantage of his aerial game and pressure him to rack up damage. And last, fighting off Meta Knight, wow.........I don't know what to do, spamming fireballs would work, but Meta Knight can counter and spam back tons of times so you and your partner can't get the win. All I know is that Mario and Luigi power is better than Meta Knight's power, he's light, of course, projectiles is going to mess him up, I'll say play defensively, jump and take out his partner first and kill him last.

Best Stages for Mario/Luigi for 2 on 2:

Battlefield
Lylat Cruise
PKMN Studium (Melee)
Frigate Orpheon

*Anything that has platforms, Mario and Luigi would do just a-OK on team brawl.*

 

[Matt07]

In my opinion a really good team with a lot of potential. Easily one of the best character combinations.

 

[mariofanpm12]

Next character then?

 

[Matt07]

Eh, I'd say sure. There hasn't been a lost of posts in 4 days so I'd say it's safe to switch.

 

[vato_break]

pit or snake

 

[PK-ow!]

alright moving on... who next? luigi?

PK-ow! do you mind if I use your post as part of the description?

You probably shouldn't, as I am totally theorycrafting and do not have tournament record to back up my claims at all.

In short, I wouldn't do it.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

I'll throw some Luigi info down later...unless you guys are moving on

 

[mariofanpm12]

Well, w still have some time.

Anybody can summarize for Mario+Mario and Mario+Luigi?

 

[Veggi]

I'll probably type something up for Mario and Luigi later, but I can't at the moment.

 

[hippiedude92]

Mario and luigi is a really thick thing to explain if you wanna go really depth... but nonetheless still a beast team...

i'll give 2 cents maybe abit later. Marios dair and luigis nair save each other lol.

 

[Matt07]

Ya we could use both your's and Monk's input. It'd be really helpful. I mean we don't really discuss much of anything anymore our boards kinda seem...I dunno not dead, but we don't really discuss Mario's metagame too much. At least that's what I think.

 

[Matt07]

Bump.

Double post.

I think we're ready to discuss the new character, do you have a summary yet? Have you asked Hippe and Monk to write one?

 

[vato_break]

I'm teaming with a dk/snake main this weekend,tips?

 

[Veggi]

Mario and Luigi make a great team and cover each other's short comings. Mario excels in edge guarding, as well as racking up damage. Luigi can also rack up damage and kills early. Saving each other off stage can also work by using Mario's dair and in some cases cape jump. Although saving Luigi off stage is not often needed due to the great vertical distance that his recovery travels. Likewise, Luigi can save Mario by using nair or Luigi Cyclone. The bad matchups against characters with infinites or long disjointed range is not as much of a problem because on teams infinites can be easily be interrupted by fireballs, FLUDD, or the Luigi Cyclone. Disjointed range can be dealt with because the characters leave themselves open to your partner while attacking, so they can not zone you properly.

For a general strategy, both Mario and Luigi will rack damage on each fresh opponent, if they are knocked off stage, it's Mario's game and people get gimped rather easily on teams when there is so much going on. When they get into kill percents (for Luigi, that's pretty low), Luigi can start looking for kills. Up b KO's for Luigi are easier to get in teams and Luigi can even run in and throw out his kill moves when the game is in a mess. If someone passes Mario's gimp game and Luigi's kill game, then proceeds to live on to a higher percent (which shoud not be to common with a Mario/Luigi team), Mario can use his reliable killers to finish them off. On teams, it's pretty easy to knock someone out of the sky with Mario's up angled fsmash.

Obviously, the Cape **** also plays a part in this team. Basically, Mario's cape amplifies vertical knockback and Luigi is a character with an extremely fast, ridiculously strong vertical KO move. Namely, Luigi's up b. If Mario grabs someone, he can bash them until it forces a ground release (on taller characters, this is not needed). When a character is grab released they receive a certain amount of lag time in which Luigi can up b the opponent. While he is doing that, Mario gets out of the lag and capes the opponent. The end product is close to a one hit KO. Killing at about 15% on heavy characters. If the person is at about 60%, just grab them and get Luigi to up b as a faster alternative.

Twin fireballs can also be used, which are having Mario shoot fireballs above Luigi, where they fall to the ground and follow Luigi's fireball. Mario's fireballs fall which means he does not need to start it at any point where it would hit Luigi. This can be done by jumping over Luigi's head and firing them or Mario could simply stand on a platform above Luigi and shoot them to increase his firing rate.

Mario and Luigi have backthrows that swing the opponent around doing 8% damage if Mario is swinging (not sure about Luigi). If someone tries to punish Mario or Luigi while they have someone in a grab, they can simply swing their own partner at them to knock them away. Back throw can also lead into attacks by having Mario or Luigi attack the person being thrown. Swung opponents can even stop projectiles.

@ Vato

I'm not sure how well the team would go, but it seems pretty good in theory. DK and Snake are both good for KO's, so try racking up damage and then telling your partner to go for the kill when they get to 90% or so. When someone has a fresh stock, rack as much damage as you can on them and then camp and deal safe damage. If they go off stage, try hard to gimp them.

 

[mariofanpm12]

Next character? I was thinking of just going down the list to Peach? But we need to summarize Mario+Luigi (Veggi did a nice job, mind if I use the summary?)

 

[Veggi]

Yeah, you can use it. I edited in information about the backthrow as well.

 

[condemned_soul]

i just looked at a youtube video the showed mario use the cape while luigi use the Up+B and were landing kills at low damage %. what an epic team

 

[BoTastic!]

I want to hear input from Monk.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

Polmex and I have yet to place lower than 7th out of 30 teams using Mario/Luigi and occasionally Snake.

The Brothers work well in doubles considering they both compliment each other Mario is much quicker while Luigi is much stronger.

The main thing to consider in this team is who you're fighting against and having a plan

I would put in more but it's either already been listed or it falls into the whole psychological part of the game which has nothing to do with match-ups and wouldn't be much help here right now

move on to another character

 

[Matt07]

Again, bump.

Let's move on to a character.

 

[mariofanpm12]

Peach it is