Mario Changes in 3.5

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Uh...they lost 1 dmg? 41 frame ISIA tho garbo doe

 

[yellowdee]

I actually feel the fireball timing nerf was needed. I think the intention was never to get a free hit whenever it lands. It's got the same timing as good ol' Melee. I may be repeating myself, but turn-around B-ing fireballs is a phenomenal mix-up. It's like a fox up-smash in the following respect: if your opponents aren't thinking about it they WILL get hit! Rack up that dmg!

 

[yellowdee]

.............

 

[deadjames]

Uh...they lost 1 dmg? 41 frame ISIA tho garbo doe

1 damage is a significant nerf because priority is dictated by damage, that means it takes one less damage to clank with/beat even less when they are stale.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

1 damage is a significant nerf because priority is dictated by damage, that means it takes one less damage to clank with/beat even less when they are stale.

Since you need to out-damage something by more than 7% in order to beat it out, there was nothing in 3.02 that Fireballs didn't clank with. All grounded moves clanked or beat it, all aerial moves beat it.

You are, in other words, complaining about nothing.

 

[deadjames]

Since you need to out-damage something by more than 7% in order to beat it out, there was nothing in 3.02 that Fireballs didn't clank with. All grounded moves clanked or beat it, all aerial moves beat it.

You are, in other words, complaining about nothing.

False, all of MK's grounded moves and aerials lost to them except for dash attack, but that's still true. Also ZSS' lasers now clank with them, they used to go through each other since her lasers used to be transcendent. I also have a hard time believing that other characters didn't have aerials that didn't beat them. Either way fireballs suck now, and they were a big part of what made the character good before.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

False, all of MK's grounded moves and aerials lost to them except for dash attack, but that's still true. Also ZSS' lasers now clank with them, they used to go through each other since her lasers used to be transcendent. I also have a hard time believing that other characters didn't have aerials that didn't beat them. Either way fireballs suck now, and they were a big part of what made the character good before.

Almost all of mks moves are transcendent. ie can not clank with any moves in the game.
The only nerf fireballs took that matters is the ISIA.

 

[deadjames]

My point remains.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Almost all of mks moves are transcendent. ie can not clank with any moves in the game.
The only nerf fireballs took that matters is the ISIA.

^^^^^^

Even with that they are still better than Pills and Fireballs in Melee overall. They could probably take the IASA down to like, 38-39 and it'd be a bit better but really I'm GLAD they're not as dumb anymore because 3.02 Fireballs were a bit TOO ham IMO, they just did so much with that IASA it was absurd.

Anything that would've erased fireballs before still will, they were never hard to just swippity swipe. I don't think they're TOTALLY useless but less useful? Likely.

The thing that still makes Mario solid however is the fact that it's basically Melee Mario with a slightly nerfed D-Throw + reliable finishers, better recovery, a better cape (hits through shields), slightly improved fireballs as of now (compared to Melee Fireballs), Doc tier air speed (SLIGHTLY > Melee Mario), a Dtilt that isn't ass, an amazing Bair (semi-spike + Melee Mario bair power? Insane).

Most of his honest flaws outside of his range have been addressed and patched up by fusing him with Doc as Mario in Melee was only hampered by range and really a lack of ways to consistently take stocks via flexible conversions despite a stellar combo game. They could stand to give him Doc's ftilt though (Fun fact Doc's Ftilt is better than Luigi's, comes out frame 4-8 like Luigi's cause Mario's was only Frame 5-7, and Doc's Ftilt has better frame data, less recovery). They could go cray and give Side-B the same hitbox as Doc's in Melee too if they want to for giggles but I think Mario is still MOSTLY solid, just less dominant. Old fireballs shut down way too much IMO :/.

The only thing about playing Mario in 3.5 is that now you probably need a secondary to cover stuff. That's it IMO.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

The meta no longer revolves around busted ass projectiles. Move on.

 

[deadjames]

I mean Falco lasers still shut down entire characters.

@ TTTTTsd I'm pretty sure Mario's air speed is the same as Melee. I also think his recovery is as bad, if not worse than Melee. The up-b wall-jump may be a one frame window, but at least you don't have to already be touching the wall to do it. I still stand by my statement that his recovery had always been bad in PM, people just suck at edge-guarding outside of the top level of play, and as I've also said before I think the dthrow nerf is extremely significant and exceedingly stupid and unnecessary. Are 3.5 fireballs really better than Melee pills? I thought they were the same just less damage.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I mean Falco lasers still shut down entire characters.

@ TTTTTsd I'm pretty sure Mario's air speed is the same as Melee. I also think his recovery is as bad, if not worse than Melee. The up-b wall-jump may be a one frame window, but at least you don't have to already be touching the wall to do it. I still stand by my statement that his recovery had always been bad in PM, people just suck at edge-guarding outside of the top level of play, and as I've also said before I think the dthrow nerf is extremely significant and exceedingly stupid and unnecessary. Are 3.5 fireballs really better than Melee pills? I thought they were the same just less damage.

3.5 Fireballs have IASA that's improved by about 2 frames vs. Melee Doc Pill (maybe 3? IDK it is VASTLY better because of an improved trajectory overall and slightly less IASA compared to Melee still as of 3.5), Up+B Walljump in Melee wasn't major but having easier Tornado mash is incredibly significant (dual mapping buttons + Nado going higher than it did in Melee because it was pretty bleh in Melee honestly). Mario's air speed has been updated to match Dr. Mario's I believe, which was SLIGHTLY (and I mean slightly, but it helps!) better than Mario's.

Mario's 3.0 fireballs were incredibly dumb if not more than Falco lasers. With the IASA in mind if you ideally powershielded them Mario was still at advantage and could easily just do more stuff. Falco has SH Laser yes but it's also usually just that (he also doesn't have the aerial control Mario has) and the lasers not only do 3% OPTIMALLY but their damage decays over distance, going to as low as 1%. Powershielding them also sucks for Falco because that sends a fast projectile right back at his face. As a result of Falco usually using SH laser having it powershielded sucks, but since Mario usually fullhops IIRC to throw fireballs, it's not as bad.

Mario's 3.0 Fireballs had good advantage on everything, block, hit or clank, did 8% damage CONSISTENTLY regardless of distance, you could feasibly throw two of them out there and still have time to do things, and powershielding them didn't really help much vs. them either. Combine that with other crazy things (Dair disjoint, his D-Throw Chaingrab combined with the fireballs, Dtilt having leg invul for some reason) and you had a REALLY dumb character lmao. 3.5 Mario is basically honest Mario, that's really all there is to it. It's less jank Mario in a cast with significantly less jank overall, so he still pans out just fine.

I'm well aware Mario is noticeably worse but not being god tier doesn't really make him BAD either. (And yes the fact that I know all this frame data stuff makes me a very obvious Dr. Mario/Mario dork =P)

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I thought we reached that certain point in time, where spacies are excluded from most generalizations.

Mario's recovery was brain dead pre-3.5 It was to strong, say what you want. He still has the invincibility frames on his up b, so it's still very solid on recovery and OoS. He is probably one of the few characters in PM, who was left with invincibility frames on his up b at this point. To be real, the PMBR has made it very clear, that they want to remove invincibility, completely. Be glad he still has this. He already lost all of the invincibility on his other moves.

 

[Scatz]

One of the few chars to have a legit SRK.

His grab game isn't damaged because you still have most of the same followups as before. Add that he can still recover from the blastline off not optimal DI, and he's still a clean character where you can't rely off fireball spamming to get what you want. CGs are a must though to maximize damage output.

 

[deadjames]

His up smash still has invincibility too.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

We have been over this. It does not, nor does his dtilt. Only the up b. If you wanna believe in something that doesn't exist, go ahead.

 

[deadjames]

We've also been over the fact that none of the changelogs ever said it has been removed and that it won't appear in debug mode because only his head is invincible and debug mode only shows invincibility on characters' entire hurtboxes, not individual bones.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Show us the invincible or sdfu

 

[deadjames]

It's literally in every game, it's common knowledge among Mario/Doc/Luigi players.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

>didnt show
yup done with your posts

 

[deadjames]

K well you can just live with limiting your OoS options then, meanwhile, I'll be playing a good character and winning.

 

[Strong Badam]

We have been over this. It does not, nor does his dtilt. Only the up b. If you wanna believe in something that doesn't exist, go ahead.

usmash has head invinc. dtilt used to.

 

[SpiderMad]

It's literally in every game, it's common knowledge among Mario/Doc/Luigi players.

Yep, Melee has head invinc on up-smash for I think most the characters. At least the ones that involve their head.

In the future just quote Brawlbox's PSA log for the noobs