Mario Changes in 3.5

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'm thinking about it, but Sheik is easier and better although Peach does have a better recovery and I hate playing characters with bad recoveries.

I wish I hadn't gotten used to NTSC Dthrow in Melee, I want to play PM in Sheik pretty bad but I get really messed :/

 

[TTTTTsd]

I sub Falco, Roy, and Ganondorf. At least one of these three can cover some of Mario's rough patches given that I'm not of the tendency to drop a character outright over relatively minor nerfs, I'm not that kinda guy! (I still play Dr. Mario in Smash 4 if you want anecdotal proof) I figure of these three, the likeliest would be Falco even though he's far from Top 10 in this game, he can probably handle certain chars Mario can't....maybe ;_;. I at least know one of these three has a better MU against Marth than Mario does (Maybe not Falco but def. Roy I would think)

 

[deadjames]

I love PM Sheik, she still has all the same good MUs from Melee, and she does better against spacies because her new throw angles make it easier to combo them.

 

[deadjames]

I sub Falco, Roy, and Ganondorf. At least one of these three can cover some of Mario's rough patches given that I'm not of the tendency to drop a character outright over relatively minor nerfs, I'm not that kinda guy! (I still play Dr. Mario in Smash 4 if you want anecdotal proof) I figure of these three, the likeliest would be Falco even though he's far from Top 10 in this game, he can probably handle certain chars Mario can't....maybe ;_;. I at least know one of these three has a better MU against Marth than Mario does (Maybe not Falco but def. Roy I would think)

I think Falco and Roy, have even MUs with Marth, I used to like to use Link against Marth, but he got nerfed pretty hard too, so Idk if that MU is still favorable.

Edit: Sorry about the double post

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah I imagine Marth is going to be Mario's biggest trouble in this update (most everyone else should be, relatively speaking, identical, especially with cast-wide nerfs that are equally if not more severe than Mario's.) Having someone just to fight Marth may be my best bet so I'm glad I have two chars in the pocket who can do that. I might go with Roy since I'm more comfortable fighting disjoint with disjoint, and I think Roy's recovery is very slightly better than Falco's.

I still firmly believe Mario is very solid and super good, but he's not gonna be able to solo everything now so Mario mains are gonna need some pocket counters, but otherwise, he's still strong enough to fight a lot of chars, thankfully.

 

[deadjames]

Yeah, I think Roy is really good now, his slight buffs coupled with everyone's nerfed recovery is probably going to make him a big threat in 3.5

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'm pretty sure Mario loses to Ike now.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Really, to me, it seems as of this update Mario is still really good but he's going to lose more to disjoint and range thanks to a fireball nerf, and can definitely still be good as a main/secondary, it's just important to have characters that can cover his bad MUs, or at least most of them. I think Roy is a pretty good choice for this, or even Falco to some extent. Leaning on Roy though he's looking like a solid complimentary (I'll always play Ganondorf too so in the rare occasion that Ganon would be favorable in a certain MU lol)

 

[deadjames]

I think Ganon would do better against Luigi than Mario now.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Mario vs. Luigi in this now, at this point, probably 50:50 (how fitting). So yeah I'd imagine Ganondorf would thanks to float being good and Luigi's projectile game, while ok, is pretty linear and not entirely exceptional. And I imagine Ganondorf's long reach and better range would outclass Mario against Luigi in terms of punish and damage potential, especially with float giving him a better neutral against Luigi.

 

[Altanic]

Sheik is a scary matchup for Mario, it's definitely more in Sheik's favor, but its not impossible. I have a friend who plays a nasty Sheik and I beat him a few times, but it was pretty even. Mario's still looking pretty good imo. The walljump nerf hurt him a lot, and tbh I don't think the fireball nerf is that bad, if forces you to be less campy and to choose different options if you're looking for some breathing room. You can still approach with them, so at least theres that. I think we just have to adjust to these changes. I usually use Fox for bad Mario matchups since he's got pretty good matchups with everyone (moreso than others of course lol.) I'm definitely gonna pick up Ganon, and Roy feels really good although he's the only character I've played that doesn't feel changed much.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Ganon is going to be legit solid but he's definitely an uphill battle against certain chars still, but he's much better here mainly due to cast-wide nerfs. Roy compliments Mario nicely IMO as Roy is pretty balanced as well and I think he's got good MUs in areas where Mario doesn't, and vice versa, so they mesh nicely. Fox is NEVER a bad choice because it's Fawkes : D

 

[Altanic]

Yeah Ganon feels goooooood, but he definitely still has good and bad matchups. Roy has range too, which is always nice, and you don't have to worry about tipping every hit for more damage which I like. Fox covers like everything that I can't with either Mario, Roy, Falco, or DK lol.

 

[deadjames]

When I played Mario my secondary was Peach, not the best choice since they have almost all the same bad MUs lol.

 

[Michael Ma]

I was playing with some friends today and noticed something very odd about the new wall jump. I didn't get to experiment a whole lot, but this kind of confused me.
I noticed that Mario can wall jump out of up-b if you start on the ground, but not in the air, whether you are hugging the wall or not. We even did the frame-by-frame in debug mode and could not get the wall jump after jump -> up b. Am I missing something or is it supposed to be like this..?
I'm still doing quite well with Mario, but some matchups have become more difficult since you can't just spam and keep people out with fireballs. I don't mind it a whole lot, just need to adjust accordingly and improve movement spacing. I'm enjoying 3.5 a lot so far, but I really hope some can clarify the walljump thing I mentioned because that bothered me a lot today.

Notes about walljumping! vvv

EDIT: Actually wait, I just tried it in Debug mode, and it did work while in the air. Hmmmm... Not sure why I couldn't get it before... Feel better now though, thought maybe it was a bug at first lol.

EDIT: Unless I'm doing something wrong, you HAVE to be hugging the wall at the beginning of your up-b while in the air. I assume this was intended..?

EDIT: Yeah, you definitely need to be hugging the wall. IMPORTANT NOTE: Be careful when using down-b to move in and hug the wall. After down-b is finished, it will actually push you away from the wall, so you have to move back into the wall and then up-b to get the walljump.

The up-B walljump works like Melee

 

[deadjames]

It's not as hard as Melee, but it's still a much less viable option.

 

[Altanic]

The up-B walljump works like Melee

The walljump is slightly different since you no longer need to input the direction during the 360 he does after up-b. You now also must be hugging the wall in order to walljump, which isn't how it is in Melee. Just pointing that out.

 

[Gidy]

This wall jump tech is hard to pull off :/ .

Any tips?

 

[Jonyc128]

Before you Upb, you have to make sure you're hugging the wall as tight as possible. It helps to hold diagonally upwards before , then after upB immediately push away from the wall. I've gotten it on Yoshi's, Green Hill, and Warioware, butt it's so tough on dreamland FoD smashville and FD

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I'm pretty sure Mario loses to Ike now.

no busted down air moe problems

 

[TTTTTsd]

For the record D-Throw to Fair still works on Roy and the crew mentioned above.

I think due to the higher KBG, it actually works at a slightly lower percent. I got it off at 105% on Roy, Ganon, etc. Perhaps I could go lower? Either way it's still castwide and usually works at 105% with good timing. You do of course, have to read your opponent's DI to land it, but if you're quick enough it registers as a true combo so it's still there.

 

[deadjames]

I figured it would work at lower percents, but does it still kill at those lower percents is the important question? If not, it's kind of useless because it sends players with good DI so high that most of them won't even be put in an edge-guard situation.

 

[TTTTTsd]

IDK if they could DI out of it to avoid dying, I imagine it works better on light/middle weights than heavies, I wish I had a DI partner to help me test this. I figure it can still kill at 105% though on certain stages or on platforms. Probably dependent on blastzones but it still works. It could work at slightly higher %s too but 105% is the most consistent number I've gotten out of it (works on basically everyone at that number when timed properly). I mean, it can KO alright at under 100% in Melee against certain characters, so I imagine 105% should kill on most of the cast under a certain weight threshold. The angle it hits at is important too as it's a really optimal angle for vertically killing since it has some horizontal to it as well, making DI a bit more of a pain. I imagine it works.

This is potentially an unintentional buff but I'd like people to look into DIing out of it and how it affects people of varying weights. I can reliably say most middle and lightweights will definitely die. It also works at 95% on Marth I THINK, only because Marth bounces so high at 105%.

 

[deadjames]

Hmm, I'll try to test it later today, I might be able to get some games in with people.

 

[Scatz]

The change is to most likely make the setup not effective on bigger stages. Since Mario always had trouble killing in games, it seems like they nerfed the ability to kill vertically as easily to actually allow some form of CPing on Mario (big stages)

 

[TTTTTsd]

That's entirely possible but I think the kill power is unchanged. I'm just not sure if it will kill at 105% on ALL stages, but I imagine places like Battlefield and maybe FD? IDK though. It will more than likely work on lighter to middle characters at this percent moreso than heavies.

 

[Scatz]

Which was what Doc was able to use on floaties (and heavies on later percents). I think they were trying to re-enable that form of setup without making it so free across the board like 3.02 made it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah I think that was what they were going for. Floaties die easier to Mario now I guess?

 

[Michael Ma]

no busted down air moe problems

I kinda think they should have just left Mario the same because I'm constantly being beat. I can't approach very well now and I constantly get punished recovering because it's predictable now with an almost useless walljump

 

[TTTTTsd]

You....can't approach? You have a good fireball for that still (it's not good at camping but you can approach with it). Utilize Mario's wave movement options, Dair is still OKAY for approaches, soft Nairs work IMO.

He's really not limited in that regard, at all.

 

[Jonyc128]

I haven't had a problem with approaching yet, except against Marth. Like quintuple T said just fireball and wavedash in and out of your opponents' range in order to coax them into throwing out a hitbox, then wavedash in and punish accordingly. I've found that down throw to upsmash works on most of the non-floaty cast.

 

[Michael Ma]

I haven't had a problem with approaching yet, except against Marth. Like quintuple T said just fireball and wavedash in and out of your opponents' range in order to coax them into throwing out a hitbox, then wavedash in and punish accordingly. I've found that down throw to upsmash works on most of the non-floaty cast.

I just find fireballs harder now because the IASA is later now

 

[yellowdee]

A nice technique against Marth (or any character) is to dash in, dash out, short hop, and B-turnaround a fireball. I can't do it as reliably as a simple dash-back turn-around, but that works well too. In 3.2 You had the ability to fluidly run away from your opponent in this fashion, but now you have to briefly pause before you go again.

Recovery-wise, I'd say the best option is to forget about wall jumping altogether: pretend you're Melee Doc. I just use down-B as early as possible to get as much initial height as possible, then use fireballs to aid in recovery. Save that second jump if you can, and fastfall upon release of a fireball to phase your opponent.

I gotta admit though, that the fun-factor of flexible wall jumps will be missed. I liked reverse Up-B wall jumping on FD.

 

[Michael Ma]

A nice technique against Marth (or any character) is to dash in, dash out, short hop, and B-turnaround a fireball. I can't do it as reliably as a simple dash-back turn-around, but that works well too. In 3.2 You had the ability to fluidly run away from your opponent in this fashion, but now you have to briefly pause before you go again.

Recovery-wise, I'd say the best option is to forget about wall jumping altogether: pretend you're Melee Doc. I just use down-B as early as possible to get as much initial height as possible, then use fireballs to aid in recovery. Save that second jump if you can, and fastfall upon release of a fireball to phase your opponent.

I gotta admit though, that the fun-factor of flexible wall jumps will be missed. I liked reverse Up-B wall jumping on FD.

That is true but Mario's recovering is pretty slow and predictable. The walljump did make it harder for opponents to edgegaurd you.

 

[deadjames]

You....can't approach? You have a good fireball for that still (it's not good at camping but you can approach with it). Utilize Mario's wave movement options, Dair is still OKAY for approaches, soft Nairs work IMO.

He's really not limited in that regard, at all.

I think fireballs are terrible for approaching in a lot of MUs now, increased endlag coupled with decreased damage make them even easier to eat through if your opponent is walling you out. Dair, and nair are only safe as cross-ups, and bair is safe at max range.

On another note, I discovered dthrow > fair does not work against Ganon at kill percent anymore, it works around 80ish% and he will live that with good DI on Yoshi's like seriously wtf? It does work on DK though, still have a lot of characters to test it out on. However, the increased dthrow knockback is not without a silver lining, I theorize that this change was enough to sway all of the space animal MUs in Mario's favor, the combos he can do on them now are just ridiculous and he already wins neutral against Wolf all the time, and Falco depending on the stage.

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

Ik you guys moved on from this but i can't let this go......
i feel as though the PMDT over nerfed marios Up B > wall jump. Now many of u guys may have more experience than me, so you may have a different view, but IMO the up b > wall jump is now almost completely eliminated as an option to recover. The point of the Up B> WJ was to increase potential recovery range not only mix up recovery. Whats the point in making the WJ confirm on the first frame of up b? if you're already touching the wall, u might as well wall kick or go straight for the up b (if you are extremely low then u can still recover from deep using the Up B > WJ, yes i get that.). Most of mario's nerfs were warranted and yes his recovery needed to be nerfed, but i feel this nerf made the UP B > WJ option a bit impractical.

Also i don't understand others frustration with Mario's Up b > WJ recovery from melee. I am a PM player, i started competitive smash with PM, i learned Wavedashing and other tech in PM. In melee it took me less than an hour to consistently get the wall kick even in the heat of a game. I understand the one frame window is difficult, but at least there was a visual indication to when you could hit the wall jump. That makes it a hundred times easier to land once you get that concept.

All in all I'm gunna play mario because I'm a mario main and always has been. i just hope that the option is fixed or at least a happy medium between the PM method or the Melee method. Personally i think the melee method gives the recovery the right amount of difficulty/practicality.

 

[deadjames]

Imo Mario's recovery was bad before, people just suck at edge-guarding, like in 3.02 ICs were literally the only character that didn't have the tools to gimp Mario.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

nah Mario's recovery was pretty good in v3.2 ... After you said bad, I can agree.

 

[TTTTTsd]

However, the increased dthrow knockback is not without a silver lining, I theorize that this change was enough to sway all of the space animal MUs in Mario's favor, the combos he can do on them now are just ridiculous and he already wins neutral against Wolf all the time, and Falco depending on the stage.

You know, that's actually REALLY ****ing good with the re-emergence of Fox being incredibly good thanks to the other cast-wide nerfs.

Also yeah Mario's recovery is mediocre now but it's still better than it was in Melee so that's my silver living. But wow, better spacey MU is good.

Also @ deadjames , from the sound of things, you running Mario as a secondary/tertiary? Or just helping out and testing things where I can't?

 

[deadjames]

nah Mario's recovery was pretty good in v3.2 ... After you said bad, I can agree.

I mean you play MK, edge-guarding Mario for you in 3.02 consisted of bthrow offstage, nair, dead Mario, obviously I'm oversimplifying it, but the point is it wasn't hard to edge-guard Mario before if you had half a brain.

You know, that's actually REALLY ****ing good with the re-emergence of Fox being incredibly good thanks to the other cast-wide nerfs.

Also yeah Mario's recovery is mediocre now but it's still better than it was in Melee so that's my silver living. But wow, better spacey MU is good.

Also @ deadjames , from the sound of things, you running Mario as a secondary/tertiary? Or just helping out and testing things where I can't?

Idk I'm still on the fence about using him this version, I went into a tourney last Saturday pretty blind to the changes in 3.5 and thought he felt horrible lost my second match after failing horribly with both Ivy and Kirby then proceeded to plow through loser's bracket with Sheik making it to like 7th, after some time in the lab I'm starting to come to terms with his changes, but I can't imagine any MUs other than like spacies, ICs, and Puff where I'd rather use him over Sheik. However, I do in fact love Mario as a character and that's like the biggest factor making me consider continuing to use him.