Male and Female, who’s next?

[Mogisthelioma]

Adeline, Dixie, Viridi, and Elma would be interesting female characters.

 

[MacDaddyNook]

To answer your question; no, we do not need any characters, costumes or echos to "balance" things out. The gender of a character is entirely unimportant and really bares no weight on the game in the slightest. It's just yet another descriptor for a character that should in no way considered much in the way that they don't shove in more left-handed or one-eyed characters just for the sake of having them. Instead, the focus should be, and thankfully is, on what the individual character can bring to the game either in legacy or unique gameplay mechanics.

 

[Sean²]

I think the representation is mostly fine. A lot of the male characters that have no existing female counterpart are simply iconic characters from 20-30 (I guess some almost 40, wow) years ago, when that was still the most common trope. If you look at most of the female characters, a majority of them haven't really made a significant impact until more recent times, with the exception of Samus. With the Pokemon, until fairly recently, there was no way of visualizing the differences between male and female, so a lot of them were effectively gender neutral. Then some of the other characters are just different versions of themselves...e.g. all the Links, Mario/Doc, etc.

I think there are some female characters that could be good additions, but the main thing I see is that there has never been a franchise's first representative that wasn't the de facto main protagonist of their game or series. Nowadays, it's going to be a toss-up of who gets to be represented in Smash. There are still a lot more classic male protagonists than there are female ones. From what I understand, there's going to be a female Joker form to go along with the male form, and if all the Erdrick rumors turn out to be true, there will be a female version of him as well. If Steve becomes a thing, there will probably be an Alex skin. My bets are on whomever the final 2 DLC characters are going to be exclusively of one gender or the other, unless all the “leaks” come true.

That said, I don't have a major preference on who's got what kind of junk in their pants for the next representatives. Most of the characters I am interested in seeing are likely never gonna happen. Crono, KOS-MOS (or maybe Shion, I think KOS-MOS is more recognizable/iconic though), and Dovahkiin/or another Street Fighter representative. That's a good mixture of both, I think.

 

[Soyaccino]

To answer your question; no, we do not need any characters, costumes or echos to "balance" things out. The gender of a character is entirely unimportant and really bares no weight on the game in the slightest. It's just yet another descriptor for a character that should in no way considered much in the way that they don't shove in more left-handed or one-eyed characters just for the sake of having them. Instead, the focus should be, and thankfully is, on what the individual character can bring to the game either in legacy or unique gameplay mechanics.

Couldn’t disagree more personally.
IMO It’s really important for younger gamers to identify with characters and feel included. As it statnds, the game alienates a bit.
There’s a responsibility element to gaming that I think is being overlooked amidst the excitement of cross title play.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Couldn’t disagree more personally.
IMO It’s really important for younger gamers to identify with characters and feel included. As it statnds, the game alienates a bit.
There’s a responsibility element to gaming that I think is being overlooked amidst the excitement of cross title play.

That's but one of many aspects in Smash, and Smash is by no means exclusively targeted at young audiences across the board. The game doesn't alienate anyone from any age/generation, background or gender. EVERYONE has someone they like, probably multiple, in Smash.. acting like otherwise is true is lunacy when we'll have 80 slots in the roster taken up all said and done.

 

[fogbadge]

musashi from sushi striker could have both as alts

 

[Sean²]

Couldn’t disagree more personally.
IMO It’s really important for younger gamers to identify with characters and feel included. As it statnds, the game alienates a bit.
There’s a responsibility element to gaming that I think is being overlooked amidst the excitement of cross title play.

A large majority of the cast are imaginary creatures. If other people didn't specifically tell a child that Kirby was a boy, what would they assume? He's a pink ball with a high pitched voice. Could be feminine to those who don't know Kirby. Same with Yoshi, ICs, all the Pokemon. When I was a kid, a lot of other kids assumed Yoshi was a girl because he lays eggs.

But if you remove the non-realistic characters, and continue looking at it with a gender-only standpoint, I don't see how a young girl couldn't identify with Samus, Bayonetta, Palutena, Sheik, Lucina, etc. Growing up as a boy, a huge amount of the current male cast would not have appealed to me as someone to identify with. Mario and Luigi are hairy-ass, middle aged men. Gross. Falcon was a mostly faceless, grown-ass muscle dude. I felt closer to the Link-types, the Ness-types, the Roy-types, etc. Cool younger looking guys with swords and inhuman powers, and I had never even played some of their source games. If I was a kid again today, you bet your ass I'd go edgy, and play Advent Children Cloud a ton.

Making things 50:50 doesn't necessarily expand upon this, it just forces limits on creativity, imo. And then you add in the fact that Smash is not a game aimed solely at children, but to teens, families, adults, and to everyone from all walks of life. Identifying with a character shouldn't be limited to a character's looks or gender, but their actual character traits as well. Think about it, if Smash 4 didn't sour so many people's opinion of the character, Bayo would have been cool as **** to everyone. It's probably even more progressive to allow a girl to identify with a male character in the game, or a boy with a female character, than it is to arbitrarily be more "inclusive" by adding female skins and echoes to existing male characters.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Falcon was a mostly faceless, grown-*** muscle dude.

What? The Cap'n has several instances of having his face revealed, including official instances.

 

[MacDaddyNook]

Couldn’t disagree more personally.
IMO It’s really important for younger gamers to identify with characters and feel included. As it statnds, the game alienates a bit.
There’s a responsibility element to gaming that I think is being overlooked amidst the excitement of cross title play.

Your logic is fundamentally flawed if you think this game alienates anyone in any way. Your logic implies that players cannot identify or connect with a character of the opposite gender. Yet, somehow, they can relate just fine with a robot or talking hedgehog or any other myriad of beings and entities that, quite frankly, do not exist in the real world. And that's not even covering the fact that there are numerous female characters already included, so it's not like there is any shortage for a girl to like. If by any means someone is having trouble enjoying the game because they cannot selfishly see themselves in it, the fault is on that individual and not the game.

Second, you are putting way to much responsibility on so frivolous that it's practically laughable. The only thing this, or any, game has to the audience is to be fun and entertaining. That's it, that's the only job a video game has. Games are just games, playthings if you will, and they're not going to change the world or solve every problem out there. If a developer wants to cover more serious material or convey some sort of message, that's fine and dandy, but it is not required nor is the creator held responsible for any such thing.

 

[Crystanium]

Damage in distress:
Not:

And not to mention none of the "damsels" were solely in helpless roles.

Samus and Dark Samus would count as badasses who caused distress, depending on who the target(s) was/were.

 

[Deleted member]

So there a noticeably more male characters in smash.
Yeah there are some characters that don’t really overtly project a gender like the Pokemon (Pikachu costumes do show variety) and the inklings are mixed.
Otherwise though it’s very male.

Do you think there need to be some new costume updates or echos added in to adjust the balance?

The leak of dlc suggests more all male inclusions.

Should more be done by the developers to develop more variety with the upcoming dlc?

More females in Smash is always a cool thing if it makes the ladies happy. My cousin gravitates towards characters like Wii Fit Trainer and Palutena, and I know gender can play a factor in that. If there's a way to put the girl variant of a male character in, like Coco for Crash or Ms. Pacman for Pacman, sure. Why not? Just depends on who and how they're implemented. My signature was decided on what character I want, not what gender I want. I always think characters should be first when it comes to Smash Bros.

 

[Sean²]

What? The Cap'n has several instances of having his face revealed, including official instances.

View attachment 201065

I grew up with Smash 64 and Melee. In those days, I had no idea what he looked like under the mask, knew nothing of F-Zero, and didn't care enough to go searching. Google wasn't quite as omnipotent back then, either.

In more recent times, yes, I've seen general instances of what he looks like.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I grew up with Smash 64 and Melee. In those days, I had no idea what he looked like under the mask, knew nothing of F-Zero, and didn't care enough to go searching. Google wasn't quite as omnipotent back then, either.

In more recent times, yes, I've seen general instances of what he looks like.

I don't think he looks right. Once I saw the face, in my mind Captain Falcon became the helmet and that normie the host.

 

[Xelrog]

I don't think he looks right. Once I saw the face, in my mind Captain Falcon became the helmet and that normie the host.

From what I understand, in the anime, Captain Falcon is a title that multiple people have held wearing the helmet.

 

[Soyaccino]

Your logic is fundamentally flawed if you think this game alienates anyone in any way. Your logic implies that players cannot identify or connect with a character of the opposite gender. Yet, somehow, they can relate just fine with a robot or talking hedgehog or any other myriad of beings and entities that, quite frankly, do not exist in the real world. And that's not even covering the fact that there are numerous female characters already included, so it's not like there is any shortage for a girl to like. If by any means someone is having trouble enjoying the game because they cannot selfishly see themselves in it, the fault is on that individual and not the game.

Second, you are putting way to much responsibility on so frivolous that it's practically laughable. The only thing this, or any, game has to the audience is to be fun and entertaining. That's it, that's the only job a video game has. Games are just games, playthings if you will, and they're not going to change the world or solve every problem out there. If a developer wants to cover more serious material or convey some sort of message, that's fine and dandy, but it is not required nor is the creator held responsible for any such thing.

The imaginary characters you often speak of here have clear genders lots of the time. It does matter that we have a more equal representation and it’s a shame that you cannot gauge this...
I suppose, it’s almost laughable.

A large majority of the cast are imaginary creatures. If other people didn't specifically tell a child that Kirby was a boy, what would they assume? He's a pink ball with a high pitched voice. Could be feminine to those who don't know Kirby. Same with Yoshi, ICs, all the Pokemon. When I was a kid, a lot of other kids assumed Yoshi was a girl because he lays eggs.

But if you remove the non-realistic characters, and continue looking at it with a gender-only standpoint, I don't see how a young girl couldn't identify with Samus, Bayonetta, Palutena, Sheik, Lucina, etc. Growing up as a boy, a huge amount of the current male cast would not have appealed to me as someone to identify with. Mario and Luigi are hairy-***, middle aged men. Gross. Falcon was a mostly faceless, grown-*** muscle dude. I felt closer to the Link-types, the Ness-types, the Roy-types, etc. Cool younger looking guys with swords and inhuman powers, and I had never even played some of their source games. If I was a kid again today, you bet your *** I'd go edgy, and play Advent Children Cloud a ton.

Making things 50:50 doesn't necessarily expand upon this, it just forces limits on creativity, imo. And then you add in the fact that Smash is not a game aimed solely at children, but to teens, families, adults, and to everyone from all walks of life. Identifying with a character shouldn't be limited to a character's looks or gender, but their actual character traits as well. Think about it, if Smash 4 didn't sour so many people's opinion of the character, Bayo would have been cool as **** to everyone. It's probably even more progressive to allow a girl to identify with a male character in the game, or a boy with a female character, than it is to arbitrarily be more "inclusive" by adding female skins and echoes to existing male characters.

Actually a large portion of the cast aren’t just random or genderless. They are mainly male.
There are significantly more males but I can completely appreciate there are opportunities there to introduce fewer males in the dlc.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Adeleine & Ribbon and Cpt Syrup are in the list of my most wanted characters, and for a long time I also wanted Jill & Drill Dozer, before the game became so obscure that I would be surprised if it even got mentioned by Nintendo again (and before Bowser Jr stole her possible gameplay).
And there are other characters such as Tetra, Lip, Ashley, etc. that I wouldn't mind.

Though I agree with what some people have already said, I want those characters not because of their gender, but because I like them as characters. I mean, Adeleine was confused as a boy for years before people realized she's actually a girl... she tricked me too when I fought her the first time in Kirby's Dream Land 3 (Ado), and I realized she's a girl only when I reached the artworks in the credits; despite this, I still loved the concept of an artist summoning bosses from the previous games to fight you, it just felt epic, and a sort of "cute" version of necromancy (revive previously defeated bosses as paintings instead of giving them the original form).

I think that there are many valid options left, and it would be cool to have some of them in the roster. Dixie Kong is the first one that should be added, as I think that she's the most important Nintendo female character still not in the game.

On a side note, I think that both Nintendo and the fanbase underestimated the potential of Cpt Syrup... I think she would have a lot of appeal, and she could become one of the most iconic characters of Smash, if added, due to her strong personality.

 

[MacDaddyNook]

The imaginary characters you often speak of here have clear genders lots of the time. It does matter that we have a more equal representation and it’s a shame that you cannot gauge this...
I suppose, it’s almost laughable.



Actually a large portion of the cast aren’t just random or genderless. They are mainly male.
There are significantly more males but I can completely appreciate there are opportunities there to introduce fewer males in the dlc.

No, it still does not matter. The gender of a character holds absolutely no affect on how the game is played at all or even if the character is beloved in the first place as all of us enjoy characters for their personalities, abilities or accomplishments (seriously, not one support thread here exist with the primary reason for support being "I like this character because the gender matches my own." Heck, it's not even considered minor point for support either). It's as insignificant as worrying about what a character ate for breakfast that morning. And again, somehow it's ok to expect people to relate with all other aspects of a character; be it an alien fox flying technology that doesn't exist yet or a princess ruling over a fungal kingdom, that apparently is completely reasonable, but somehow the line is drawn at what body parts reside between someone's legs?

At the end of the day, the gender of a character should not even be considered when being chosen as a fighter. It helps and adds absolutely zero to the game overall.

 

[osby]

No, it still does not matter. The gender of a character holds absolutely no affect on how the game is played at all or even if the character is beloved in the first place as all of us enjoy characters for their personalities, abilities or accomplishments (seriously, not one support thread here exist with the primary reason for support being "I like this character because the gender matches my own." Heck, it's not even considered minor point for support either). It's as insignificant as worrying about what a character ate for breakfast that morning. And again, somehow it's ok to expect people to relate with all other aspects of a character; be it an alien fox flying technology that doesn't exist yet or a princess ruling over a fungal kingdom, that apparently is completely reasonable, but somehow the line is drawn at what body parts reside between someone's legs?

At the end of the day, the gender of a character should not even be considered when being chosen as a fighter. It helps and adds absolutely zero to the game overall.

I don't think we need to fill gender quotas in Smash, but I disagree with you on characters' gender being insignificant.

One of the reason Samus is such a notable video game character is because she's a woman. Video games are dominated by male characters like pretty much every media, so when a female character has a notable role, it sticks out more.

Also, like it or not, characters' genders do affect their personality and accomplishments, because they are created in a society with strict gender roles. You can't have a male character taking the roles of motherly , openly-sexual or dainty easily. Not to mention female characters add visual diversity to the roster in the same vain with villains; as they are still a minority of characters.

Again, I don't agree with the OP and some characters' genders really do not matter (like Pokemon) but you can't just expect people to be completely insignificant towards gender when hardly any culture does. This isn't politics, this is just how most people are brought up.

EDIT: Also, we are talking about gender here, not sex. Nobody said they care about "what body parts reside between someone's legs".

 

[DelugeFGC]

I don't think we need to fill gender quotas in Smash, but I disagree with you on characters' gender being insignificant.

One of the reason Samus is such a notable video game character is because she's a woman. Video games are dominated by male characters like pretty much every media, so when a female character has a notable role, it sticks out more.

Also, like it or not, characters' genders do affect their personality and accomplishments, because they are created in a society with strict gender roles. You can't have a male character taking the roles of motherly , openly-sexual or dainty easily. Not to mention female characters add visual diversity to the roster in the same vain with villains; as they are still a minority of characters.

Again, I don't agree with the OP and some characters' genders really do not matter (like Pokemon) but you can't just expect people to be completely insignificant towards gender when hardly any culture does. This isn't politics, this is just how most people are brought up.

Eloquently put, truly. Agreed 100%.

 

[Christian_CAO]

If we get more that's fine and all but it's not necessary to focus on gender just for the sake of adding more female representation.
I'm more interested in what a character brings to the table and the franchise they represent rather than what chromosomes they have.
Harmless conversation I'm sure but still, it's not anything anyone should concern themselves with too a certain extent.

Also, fabulous~ Birdo (Ostro) for Smash

is Birdo a race instead of a name? Like Yoshi is a race and not a name?

 

[Nutty Sponge]

Never payed attention to character's genders. I don't care whether they're male or female, I just want to have fun playing as them :/

 

[DelugeFGC]

Is Captain Falcon a gender?

That's what I prefer.

 

[Xquirtle]

I'd like more female options, but I wouldn't care to purposefully try and get 'gender balance'. Many of the suggestions just make sense as additional skins, but they should just add the best possible characters that they can come up with. Maybe part of that is that they want more females, but any sort of attempt at a quota would be stupid. I'd imagine that video game protagonists and antagonists are predominately male, which is probably another discussion, so i'm not surprised that the cast is skewed in that direction.

 

[viras]

Don't mean to be rude or anything like I'm not trying to be insulting but why does it matter? I'm sure more female characters will be added and the ones we already have are cool asf. Especially Bayonetta. Characters like Toadette and Birdo would be stupid and they only redeeming thing they'd have about them is that they are female variations. Like seriously there's nothing good to them. However characters like Shantae would be cool. You should play smash for the game and not the gender lol. Sure, more female characters would be cool but pushing this on a fighting game is kinda dumb. No mean to be insulting.

 

[MacDaddyNook]

I don't think we need to fill gender quotas in Smash, but I disagree with you on characters' gender being insignificant.

One of the reason Samus is such a notable video game character is because she's a woman. Video games are dominated by male characters like pretty much every media, so when a female character has a notable role, it sticks out more.

Also, like it or not, characters' genders do affect their personality and accomplishments, because they are created in a society with strict gender roles. You can't have a male character taking the roles of motherly , openly-sexual or dainty easily. Not to mention female characters add visual diversity to the roster in the same vain with villains; as they are still a minority of characters.

Again, I don't agree with the OP and some characters' genders really do not matter (like Pokemon) but you can't just expect people to be completely insignificant towards gender when hardly any culture does. This isn't politics, this is just how most people are brought up.

EDIT: Also, we are talking about gender here, not sex. Nobody said they care about "what body parts reside between someone's legs".

You make some great points and I fully agree with your base argument and the majority of what you say.

I gladly concede that my original statement is flawed needs clarification. I do fully agree with you that the gender can, and does, affect the personality of a character as it does real humans. Using your examples, I do see how a motherly/fatherly or a princely/princess personality have their own sets of characteristics. A character like Bayo would have to be written differently if made as masculine.

I do need to correct myself in saying that gender on its own isn't very important when it comes to the value of a character, which was how I interpreted the original poster's argument to be. A beloved motherly character may be motherly because she's female, but she isn't beloved for being female specifically, but rather because of her motherly personality, in addition to other traits she may have. It isn't the gender itself that gives her value, even if it does apply certain characteristics that endear us to her. We like characters for the sum of their parts, not just the single part which is what the original for needing more females for the sake of being female was trying to focus on.

Visual variety is a good thing to have since we don't want everything to be too much the same, but its overall importance is arguable. Singling out a particular trait to include a character such as villain or female for the sake of having another villain or female doesn't really make the game better if you ask me. But that doesn't mean I oppose including an interesting and beloved character that happens to fill that trait as long as the character's overall merits are given the much larger focus. Fortunately, there are so many characters with the merits, be it popularity, legacy or uniqueness, to be included that this diversity is achieved without really having to put any concern on it directly.

As for the whole gender vs sex thing, you can call me old fashioned, but I'm from the camp that they're pretty much interchangeable. I know things are much muddier in recent years, but in the context of the game, I don't think the distinction is necessary.

 

[Xelrog]

Toadette happening without Toad would be shoehorned and stupid.

Birdo, however, I actually think would make a really cool playable character. It would be hard to make him/her an echo for Yoshi--at best I think they'd have a Villager/Isabelle thing kind of going on, but honestly Birdo's got enough going with the suction and the straight egg firing and whatnot to be a really unique-playing character.

 

[Sean²]

The imaginary characters you often speak of here have clear genders lots of the time. It does matter that we have a more equal representation and it’s a shame that you cannot gauge this...
I suppose, it’s almost laughable.



Actually a large portion of the cast aren’t just random or genderless. They are mainly male.
There are significantly more males but I can completely appreciate there are opportunities there to introduce fewer males in the dlc.

Well, you responded to some of my point, I suppose. The reason there are more males are due to a lot of them being characters from a time where games were not really marketed toward women at all - between 20 and 40 years ago. Mario, Link, DK, etc. They're iconic and simply cannot be exchanged at this point in time. Then factor in cultural differences between the East and the West... It's not the fault of game designers today that game designers of past eras made really good games that featured only male protagonists.

Regardless, I still think you are oversimplifying what the characters are and what they represent. There is more to each of them than their gender alone. I, and most others, would likely take one more really great/fun to play male character over 15 mediocre female ones shoehorned in for the sake of more equal representation.

If you really wanted to open up a can of worms, you could ask why a mass majority of humanoid characters are either Caucasian or Asian. But in reality, I don't think anyone actually cares that much. Japan's going to continue making their games how they want, and we're going to continue eating them up regardless of who is represented or not.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Regardless, I still think you are oversimplifying what the characters are and what they represent. There is more to each of them than their gender alone. I, and most others, would likely take one more really great/fun to play male character over 15 mediocre female ones shoehorned in for the sake of more equal representation.

Agree with some of these points, but I can't really think of any situation where a character would be so out of this world that I would take that single character over 15 others (especially since all the big fan favorites likely Ridley and K. Rool are already in) no matter how mediocre they were, regardless of gender. It would be difficult enough to pick 15 characters that would all be so actively terrible that I'd rather have 1 character over them, but if you factor in the fewer amount of female characters to choose from to begin with (as all of you have spent so much time so generously pointing out why) , picking 15 from that pool that would all fit that criteria is unfathomable in it of itself.

 

[Sean²]

Agree with some of these points, but I can't really think of any situation where a character would be so out of this world that I would take that single character over 15 others (especially since all the big fan favorites likely Ridley and K. Rool are already in) no matter how mediocre they were, regardless of gender. It would be difficult enough to pick 15 characters that would all be so actively terrible that I'd rather have 1 character over them, but if you factor in the fewer amount of female characters to choose from to begin with (as all of you have spent so much time so generously pointing out why) , picking 15 from that pool that would all fit that criteria is unfathomable in it of itself.

I was intentionally exaggerating to get my point across. I guess to put it in a more realistic perspective, just imagine 3-4 more Marth and Roy clones with slightly different sword elements or something, but created for the sole intention to add more women to the cast - versus 1-2 fully unique characters that just happen to be men. I would take the unique characters in a heartbeat.

 

[Xquirtle]

Well if we look at ZeRo's most recent tier list top 10 (he is reputable enough) here is the break down. All we have to do is all agree that the Pikas / Inkling are female and we've got a Utopian 50/50 split.

1. Pichu (either)
2. Peach/Daisy (female)
3. Olimar (Male)
4. Lucina (Female)
5. Pika (either)
6. Wolf (Male)
7. Fox (Male)
8. Wario (Male)
9. Inkling (female / either)
10. Greninja (either?)

 

[DelugeFGC]

Some parts of ZeRo's tier list were an absolute joke and I haven't been taking a whole lot of his wack opinions seriously as of late.

His reputation is more attached to Sm4sh imo. I consider him a Sm4sh Pro, not an Ult Pro.

 

[Xquirtle]

Some parts of ZeRo's tier list were an absolute joke and I haven't been taking a whole lot of his wack opinions seriously as of late.

His reputation is more attached to Sm4sh imo. I consider him a Sm4sh Pro, not an Ult Pro.

Yeah i mean it's just a tongue in cheek joke. He's probably still top 20 or 30 and I'd say the 10 top tiers are perfectly reasonable. Maybe you could pull Greninja out.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

ZeRo is a good player but he is not the best at conveying information. He doesn't follow a script when recording his videos and mostly speak at the top of his head, which is why I don't bother watching them (I liked his video about the online though). If people want their videos about Smash theory, they are better off watching My Smash Corner, Beefy Smash Doods and Izaw who do videos in a professional manner.