Making smash commentary better

[Strong Badam]

Did anyone catch the Links Vs. Stinks Crew battle? Because all I have to say that it was one of the best commentating I have ever heard. During Green Ranger vs. a link player, InternetExplorer and Strong Bad pulled off some intense commentating while laying out the knowledge and infomartion of their mains and trying to apply them to the match up. It was pretty good and the intensity of the match with the equally instense commentating really made the match a lot more hype than it was supposed to be FOR ME.

Not trying to say these guys should commentate every major/tournament from now on but we need more commentating like this. Knowledge, some good and up to date presentation of facts, valid and consistent explanation of what is going on and what each player should do/is doing, a way to get viewers into the match, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2iNPLDAhNA

32:00
35:30

But I did like the overall commentary at Apex. Pretty solid so far.

hey, i'm glad you liked my commentary!
i'm really interested in commentating more, it's a really fun medium through which i can share the knowledge i've gained about this game in the past 4 years. it's also really challenging; being articulate in-person is something i've been working on and i think i've gotten a lot better at in the past 6 months. i'd like to mention that DK vs [insert character] is definitely NOT the only situation where i'm capable of commentating. i use and understand a wide variety of characters and would like to commentate not-DK sets too.

if anyone has any feedback about my commentary feel free to post it here and i'll absorb it for whenever i get the chance to do so again.

 

[Revven]

I've got something that could probably be improved: less "Brawl-hate" jokes.

I don't know if it was just Dogy (I think it was...? Could have also been D1) but several times during Apex on the Melee stream I recall Dogy or D1 every so often throwing a joke out there about Brawl. As a spectator who's watched Dogy commentate before, as well as others, I know full well he's mostly just poking fun and not being allllll the way serious about it. But anyone who would be tuning in for the first time might be confused about why he said what he did about the other Smash game in a negative light.

I really think we should be trying to break away from being like that. Yes it's humorous, something to say when nothing's really going on, etc. but something else could be said to replace those comments, even if they are far and few in between. I don't think it's necessary to keep harping on about it, even if it's jokingly. It makes me think of Dogy in a less respectable light, even though I dislike Brawl as much as the next guy.

I could be mistaken about if it was brought up more than once at Apex, but it at least came up once and I'm pretty sure I've heard it a couple of other times on other Melee major tournament streams before (though it obviously depends on who is commentating). If you're going to commentate, talk about the game you are commentating for, not other games... even on the downtime. It's extremely unprofessional. It'd be the same as someone like SkiSonic or James Chen making a joke about Melee on their downtime between matches.

Just something I thought I'd mention, everything else was solid as I said before. The above could definitely be avoided completely in the future. You could talk about MUs on downtime or spill a little knowledge about the game, rather than shooting the breeze with the other commentator.

 

[prog]

Just something I thought I'd mention, everything else was solid as I said before. The above could definitely be avoided completely in the future. You could talk about MUs on downtime or spill a little knowledge about the game, rather than shooting the breeze with the other commentator.

Hopefully, when the production stuff gets underway, we'll reduce that downtime. I know from where we were sitting, we were finding out last second who was up next on the streaming equipment, so couldn't talk match ups if we don't know what matchup is next.

 

[Riio]

I wanted to give an example of what I was talking about in the OP, about rapport between the commentators. http://youtu.be/GLacIdxXsxs?t=7m33s Here, Prog asks Dogy to explain what DI is to viewers who might be new to melee (which is a good idea), and then Prog adds on a little tidbit about smash DI after Dogy finishes. Dogy then kind of defensively remarks that Prog didn't ask about smash DI and tells Prog multiple times that they weren't talking about smash DI. Meanwhile, the match is still going on uncommentated and the viewer probably feels a little uncomfortable and distracted from the match while egos are being defended.

This is kind of a trend that continues throughout the matches Dogy and Prog commentate, and while Dogy definitely isn't the only commentator that does this (that is, occasionally shut down and try to one-up the other commentator), it happened a lot during Apex. Other examples I can remember off the top of my head are situations where Prog tries to get hype, like "Oh my goodness, what was that?!" and Dogy casually deflates him with a remark like "An up-b." Basically I think it's important that commentators build up each other and not shut each other down (see Kage and Kirbykaze on commentary at Impulse), otherwise it can get unpleasant for the stream viewers.

 

[Strong Badam]

EDIT: wrong thread

 

[D1]

I wanted to give an example of what I was talking about in the OP, about rapport between the commentators. http://youtu.be/GLacIdxXsxs?t=7m33s Here, Prog asks Dogy to explain what DI is to viewers who might be new to melee (which is a good idea), and then Prog adds on a little tidbit about smash DI after Dogy finishes. Dogy then kind of defensively remarks that Prog didn't ask about smash DI and tells Prog multiple times that they weren't talking about smash DI. Meanwhile, the match is still going on uncommentated and the viewer probably feels a little uncomfortable and distracted from the match while egos are being defended.

This is kind of a trend that continues throughout the matches Dogy and Prog commentate, and while Dogy definitely isn't the only commentator that does this (that is, occasionally shut down and try to one-up the other commentator), it happened a lot during Apex. Other examples I can remember off the top of my head are situations where Prog tries to get hype, like "Oh my goodness, what was that?!" and Dogy casually deflates him with a remark like "An up-b." Basically I think it's important that commentators build up each other and not shut each other down (see Kage and Kirbykaze on commentary at Impulse), otherwise it can get unpleasant for the stream viewers.

I actually remember experiencing this a lil' during USA vs. World crews but I saw it more as sarcasm than anything, but I won't lie it did sorta kill my momentum but I just thought what would a band do in front of an audience in this situation? Keep on playing.

 

[Violence]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqXhHNZKiCI#t=12m
Way to kill the hype, Dogy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPjqbcSM56Q#t=18m39s
Seriously? I've watch that uthrow to dunk like 3-4 times now, and it looks legit to me. Maybe Mango didn't DI it right, but Dogy just comes in to invalidate the win for no reason.

There were a lot of moments where things were exciting on the stream and Dogy just... ho hum... whatever.

Why was he on the stream? It didn't even look like he wanted to be there. I'd take D1 and Prog every day over Dogy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGqqz-LImrk

Seriously, listen to him.

Garbage commentary like his doesn't belong on the stream.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Wobbles is the best commentator ever, he's professional, analytical, insightful and also quite funny and entertaining!
I hope he starts to commentate full time, he could commentate his own matches as he plays them. Wobbles could do it, he's that good

 

[Riio]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqXhHNZKiCI#t=12m
Way to kill the hype, Dogy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPjqbcSM56Q#t=18m39s
Seriously? I've watch that uthrow to dunk like 3-4 times now, and it looks legit to me. Maybe Mango didn't DI it right, but Dogy just comes in to invalidate the win for no reason.

There were a lot of moments where things were exciting on the stream and Dogy just... ho hum... whatever.

Why was he on the stream? It didn't even look like he wanted to be there. I'd take D1 and Prog every day over Dogy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGqqz-LImrk

Seriously, listen to him.
Garbage commentary like his doesn't belong on the stream.

Yeah these are more examples of what I was talking about and I generally agree, although I wouldn't say Dogy's commentary is garbage. Definitely enjoyed it more when it was D1 and Prog.

 

[MasterShake]

I wish D1 and prog could just be on.

D1 has the voice of a generation and a great attitude to match.

Prog used to bore me to death but he has leveled up and is super informative, reacts well to the match, and injected his voice with some personality.

Winning combo imo.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

The world needs more Swiftbass on the mic

-----

Also, my commentary is gdlk. Check it.

 

[Shimesaba]

Wobbles is the best commentator ever, he's professional, analytical, insightful and also quite funny and entertaining!
I hope he starts to commentate full time, he could commentate his own matches as he plays them. Wobbles could do it, he's that good

Wobbles knows his ****, but he also comes off as adoring himself. Watch some of his Big House 2 vids, in most of them he's either insulting Vro or talking over MattDotZeb. His interview with Hbox is okay, but then he can't stop himself from cutting Mango off over and over.

It might just be nervousness rather than ego, but the dude needs to put in some work if he wants to get into that top tier.

 

[S l o X]

The world needs more Swiftbass on the mic

-----

Also, my commentary is gdlk. Check it.

yes

and yes. no more dogy pls

 

[Nintendude]

Did anyone here watch SSB top-4? That was pretty much my first time commentating in front of any kind of audience and I'd like to use upcoming Melee/PM locals to practice and improve. Any constructive criticism would be appreciated.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

It has been decided.

Wobbles + Strong Bad

 

[Dan Salvato]

It has been decided.

Wobbles + Strong Bad

 

[Shimesaba]

Did anyone here watch SSB top-4? That was pretty much my first time commentating in front of any kind of audience and I'd like to use upcoming Melee/PM locals to practice and improve. Any constructive criticism would be appreciated.

For your first time, that was really good commentary. You guys had a pretty good balance of information and hype.

 

[rokimomi]

swiftbass for unsung commentary hero, as insightful as anyone, adds hype when necessary and doesnt blab about just say what he sees on the screen, instead he makes predictions and advice on what the players should/will be doing and what to look out for

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Sorry IE, just the way the world rolls

Suddenly

power

I have

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

What if told you there once lived a man who's commentary was not only extremely informative, but at the same time... ultra hype?

And his name begins with a W.

You mean Waffles?

 

[Gea]

Wife for prez

 

[D1]

I won't lie I def do remember having a great time commentating w/ Swiftbass back in the No Johns days. Highlight things like the threshold of when certain combos stop working and so on. Soooo good. I always vouch for him as well.

 

[TheCatPhysician]

Not sure if this has been said, but here's a suggestion I thought of while watching the Apex stream:

It really is great when commentators explain basic things from time to time for people who don't play smash or are just learning. But the last stock of the last match of an important set (for example) is not the time to do this, IMO.

 

[SwiftBass]

Sup guys

thoughts........

I think that there is are two types of commentary needed. Early matches in the day that are not as significant as things like semis and grand finals I think are well suited for a lighter more playful style of commentary. These matches I think should have the more informative approach to people who may be new and do not understand all of the common nuances of tourney play

Later in the day when the matches become significant like mango vs m2k or even two really solid mid/high level guys(silent wolf and pewpewu at apex for an example because there was so much going on in that match. Thinking about it now I would've liked to commentate that as I have watched these two and for a while now) .That kind of stuff is suited for more advanced commentary. I think that it is a great opportunity to shed light on some of the small things(without going off on a tangent too much) that makes the "pros" so good. Its a great opportunity to further instill fundamentals of the meta game into the minds of our players "on the brinq" and those on that grind for data. I do think that the meta should be discussed a bit more in depth in some of the high profile matches. Like common options, common mistakes, priorit,y match-up flaws etc etc

There was a comment about "too smart" commentating. I agree. When I first started I think I was trying to be too smart. There needs to be balance, some things are better not commented on(I basically tried to cover everything going on). Still wanna leave things for the players to find out with visuals =).



Its also important to establish roles which I think D1 did well for me when I started. I think I got a bit long winded at times but we tried to approach it in a leap frog manner. Like he would ask something then I would explain and vice verca. We worked with each others strengths. Prog helped me with the balance as well. I honestly I think there is always gonna be someone who talks more but long as it is a combined effort. someone has to play support. An exmaple now is kind of wobbles. he is obviously the quarterback and the people he commentates with kind of have that understanding. I think thats perfectly fine long as the quarterback is wanted by the people. I have heard nothing but positives about wobbles so far...

I would like to commentate more, but I am player at heart. I also TO here in Connecticut so I am always trying to find that balance. I've actually only commentated at majors/regionals if I happen to be around the table and GIMR asks me to. I respect what he does and I honestly would do anything he asks smash related because of his efforts alone.

I was adamant about it for a short period of time before pound 5, but there were and are lots of other smashers who want to go on the mic too(whether they fit what the community wants is up to you guys) and I rather not try to jock for a position on the mic because I am a player at heart.

Perhaps I will try to pop in as a "guest" to do some more, like the little I did at RoM5. Hey I still consider myself(well at least not with my poor performance at apex) one of those players on the cusp of a breakthrough and I will fight for it until the end so that takes priority. balancing act indeed


Dat rant

I won't lie I def do remember having a great time commentating w/ Swiftbass back in the No Johns days. Highlight things like the threshold of when certain combos stop working and so on. Soooo good. I always vouch for him as well.

The world needs more Swiftbass on the mic

swiftbass for unsung commentary hero, as insightful as anyone, adds hype when necessary and doesnt blab about just say what he sees on the screen, instead he makes predictions and advice on what the players should/will be doing and what to look out for

Thanks guys

 

[ThePrime]

somebody just please for the love of god get dogysamich off that mic wow he totally comprehends things at the most simple level. Not to mention his doc would GET BODIED ON THE WEST COAST SON

 

[Scidadle]

Wobbles is by far the best commentator in smash right now.

He replicates the FGC style of commentating better than any of the other smash commentators do. I feel like a good commentary combo to look up to and try to replicated in smash would be James Chen and Ultradavid. They have the most professional commentary out of all of them and I think Wobbles comes the closest to them.

One thing that smash commentators need to work on is not rambling on about menial stuff.

I'm not saying I could do a better job, cause I can't. But I can see where things need to improved on.

 

[Scar]

this is the most important thread of 2013

extensive conversation about this to come next week on melee it on me - mark your calendars and let me know if you want to come on

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

I mentioned this on the last MIOM, but I think the best example of commentary we should emulate at big tourneys comes from the EVO 2012 Super Turbo Finals. They make the game accessible to newer players without being overbearing on the basics, they tell the story of the bracket and the players, and the evolution of the metagame itself, and of course they get you hyped about what's going on in the game. I'd encourage everyone to watch it, I've probably seen it all the way through 4 times.
http://youtu.be/i2gMAOPIHIo

 

[Astraea31]

Waffles and Phil HANDS DOWN best commentators for entertainment/hype, these guys are so funny, unlike a lot of the current commentators no offense. Wife and Husband for most professional commentary, too bad they don't go around too much anymore. Oh and IE is pretty good too.

 

[Isprayaxe]

Not sure if this has been said, but here's a suggestion I thought of while watching the Apex stream:

It really is great when commentators explain basic things from time to time for people who don't play smash or are just learning. But the last stock of the last match of an important set (for example) is not the time to do this, IMO.

I agree ^

 

[Radiowar]

imo lovage is a perfect example of ideal melee commentary. first of all he's actually good at talking fast without stumbling over his words. he's also smart enough to recognize and explain interesting details quickly and concisely without getting hung up on explaining a shine grab that whiffed 5 seconds ago (which might as well be an hour ago in melee). he doesnt waste time talking about What The Players Gotta Do In This Matchup, instead he actually talks about the players, and often goes further and explains WHY a player chose to do move x just then, which is to say he INTERPRETS the match rather than simply tryin to read back a move-by-move transcript or explaining what a wavedash is. (this point is maybe somewhat skewed since he's mostly only done commentary at cali tourneys and i guess knows the players better??)

d1+swift was also a dope combo when that was happening. waffles+phil is funny bc back in the day i think what they were most successful at doing was making videos that could make you feel what it was like to be there in the moment, and nowadays when they do commentary phil is still all about that but waffles i think may have gotten bullied by youtube comments too much

 

[KanyeRest]

imo lovage is a perfect example of ideal melee commentary. first of all he's actually good at talking fast without stumbling over his words. he's also smart enough to recognize and explain interesting details quickly and concisely without getting hung up on explaining a shine grab that whiffed 5 seconds ago (which might as well be an hour ago in melee). he doesnt waste time talking about What The Players Gotta Do In This Matchup, instead he actually talks about the players, and often goes further and explains WHY a player chose to do move x just then, which is to say he INTERPRETS the match rather than simply tryin to read back a move-by-move transcript or explaining what a wavedash is. (this point is maybe somewhat skewed since he's mostly only done commentary at cali tourneys and i guess knows the players better??)

d1+swift was also a dope combo when that was happening. waffles+phil is funny bc back in the day i think what they were most successful at doing was making videos that could make you feel what it was like to be there in the moment, and nowadays when they do commentary phil is still all about that but waffles i think may have gotten bullied by youtube comments too much

i agree with a lot of this but i think lovage isn't that great imo but he's still good

my main problem with apex 2013 besides bifuteki's stream was that wobbles did not commentate nearly enough. he is the best commentator in the smash community right now and definitely deserved to be in the commentator's chair way more at apex

 

[ItalianStallion]

I did notice that Dogy's commentary seemed to exhibit what you're talking about OP. He would disagree a lot and argue minute details and have it take away from the match. You are correct in that commentator's agreeing and keeping the hype going is the best bet. Of course, when there are egregious failures of game knowledge, exceptions should be made. Also, the Shroomed hate from Dogy was uncalled for. Commentator's shouldn't hate on players.

 

[choknater]

i think i am a pretty good commentator and i enjoy it a lot

 

[KanyeRest]

did nobody point out that the twins' commentary sucked? dogy was mediocre, but at least i could stand listening to him. both the twins just made me cringe.

 

[ItalianStallion]

Prog should commentate more because he likes Arrested Development. Such a genius show. I squeed when he made the Feather-Bottom reference.

 

[SPAWN]

Can more people post videos of good/great commentating during smash matches? ....I just haven't seen swiftbass commentating (I orginally thought I didn't see Wobbles commentate then I realized he did a good portion of top 10 matches for commentary at Apex).

 

[SwiftBass]

I dont have many. my worst was probably when armada pulled out young link on HBOX. I was a little too hype haha.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Consensus is in: no more dogy, a lot more wobbles.

Dogy simply doesn't know the matchups either. He criticized shroom's play when clearly shroomed is the best doc for a reason. And his matchup knowledge is out of date. Since when does falcon lose badly to IC's?

I enjoy people that can convey hype and get hyped, while still being able to communicate and interpret what is going on. Even if you don't know what's going on, if the commentator is getting hype about something, you start to feel it too.

Not commentary... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZfQbjOGbbg
but the crowd getting hyped for aziz and seeing him jump around afterwords is just as hype as the combo IMO. Same with commentators. If they show the cam and dogy is sitting there straightfaced like "whatever" it's a buzzkill.

 

[JJTheJetPlane]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm8KUKEE5Rk

My favorite match in terms of commentary ever.