Lucina: Separate character or costume? (Confirmed separate character)

[ihskeyp]

Can anyone show the statement of Sakurai saying flat out, in factual words, what Lucina is?

...Thought so

So until the man actually makes a statement on something, nobody should bother trying to figure it out. Sakurai has made it clear time and time again through this games development that he loves to mess with the fans. Nothing is set in stone until he sets it definitively. We don't know what showing specific trophies off means, because while some are just "Look at this trophy" the Brittany one clearly said "She is not playable" While others have not Until he makes straightforward statements, we basically have no clue what role Lucina, the Pyrosphere shadow, Wonder Red, or Rayman play. Hell, it could still be argued we don't know Chrom's role is. He could be an Assist Trophy for all we know, and you cannot literally prove otherwise.

I'm not trying to be an ***, but people saying "its obvious" is doesn't mean or prove anything. Its not obvious, because nothing in this game is obvious

I don't even know where this alt stuff started! We've had clones before, and she was announced just like any other newcomer. Sakurai didn't say she was a costume, in fact since he most likely runs the site he called her a NEWCOMER! Why are peoe still discussing this!?

 

[lightdasher]

Can anyone show the statement of Sakurai saying flat out, in factual words, what Lucina is?

...Thought so

So until the man actually makes a statement on something, nobody should bother trying to figure it out. Sakurai has made it clear time and time again through this games development that he loves to mess with the fans. Nothing is set in stone until he sets it definitively. We don't know what showing specific trophies off means, because while some are just "Look at this trophy" the Brittany one clearly said "She is not playable" While others have not Until he makes straightforward statements, we basically have no clue what role Lucina, the Pyrosphere shadow, Wonder Red, or Rayman play. Hell, it could still be argued we don't know Chrom's role is. He could be an Assist Trophy for all we know, and you cannot literally prove otherwise.

I'm not trying to be an ***, but people saying "its obvious" is doesn't mean or prove anything. Its not obvious, because nothing in this game is obvious

In that case tell me what Robin is, he could be a costume too.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Im gonna go out on a whim and say that shes an alt for marth but was put on the main website to not confuse people of her being in the game or not. I mean yeah we have alts for other characters like Little Mac, Villager, WFT, ect, but have any of them ever had name changes? No they're all the same, if you picked a Lucina alt for Marth and won and it went like "Marth wins!" That'd be misleading, so what i think happens is that when you switch to Lucina, Marths name changes to Lucina and the announcer says Lucina instead of Marth.

In turn, I could really see them doing something like this to Falco who, with customizable moves, can be even more like Fox, just slap all of Falco's B moves as Fox's custom moves and then make him an Alt like Lucina is to Marth.

 

[jigglover]

Or they could stick her in Robin's trailer to build hype, like Dark Pit.

This I doubt. She got a full character splash, and gameplay footage. Dark Pit got a cameo at best...

Why not? You're just making an assumption. And male WFT could, but why bother? Who really cares about him? People obviously care about Lucina.

Uhh... Dude, male WFT won't have his own panel on site lol. He is an alternate costume; Lucina is a character. No, but seriously, think about it. If Peach were to get Daisy as an alternate costume, do you really expect her to have her own panel on-site as well? Either on the character select screen it will have Marth/Lucina and you get to pick which one before the battle starts (so basically Zelda/Sheik) or... Lucina's her own character. Now that we know that character slots will be individual, Lucina is her own character. I still don't really understand how this argument appears to hold weight with people.

If there isn't an argument, then why are people arguing it? Just look at the pool results.

Because people are in denial over it, for some reason. We'll have newspaper articles saying "Lucina confirmed for smash, causes self-harm among teenagers" since apparently her inclusion is so bad everyone is getting depressed over it...

They didn't say she was a costume right away so people would think she's the newcomer.

And they would want this to happen because..?

There's no way it's an error with how making websites work. There's specific scripting in place for each version of the site, and two versions of her profile panel. And I said Dark Pit is either a costume or less.

In which case Sakurai is probably just waiting for an artist to draw up a nice piece of art for him to stick by her name. I don't understand why the mobile design would have a full newcomer banner, while the web browser one wouldn't. Filling space is an OK argument, but also one that holds no water, because he could just enlarge the rest of the boxes a little bit...

And Dark Pit was deconfirmed from Trophy, Assist Trophy and Playable status when? I think you saw me going the wrong way with my statement there... I was meaning he should be going up in the world! >_>

Chrom's a Final Smash though.

Yes, but he meant if, theoretically, Chrom was included, would he not be a clone of Ike. The answer is no, thus Lucina is probably not one for Marth.

Or are just reasonably pessimistic about a developer who pulls things like this all the time.

But he has never confirmed something and then deconfirmed it later on besides Sonic, who has been returned to Smash.

 

[Bassoonist]

What facts? Prove it to me, completely, right here and right now if it's really as proven as you say.

My original post in this topic that you already quoted states the facts.

If you want more detail: Go the mobile website. Lucina has a fully sized newcomer image on the main page, it says 'newcomer'. She has a "Warning! New Challenger Approaching!" banner, just like Robin and Captain Falcon. She has her own page, which on both the mobile and PC/Mac website labels her as a newcomer. The website also indicates that the introduction for a new challenger, Lucina has been added. Lastly, in the trailer she gets an introductory pose and phrase.

If those facts don't convince you, I don't even know what to say. This is as clear as day.

 

[The21stSmasher]

Now we're going on "feels"? Look how far that takes people in Ridley arguments.
She a new character. Not a separate character, but new character nonetheless.

1. A whole different man having a "costume" for a whole different woman. No, it wouldn't work well.
2. A new character that's a costume for Marth? You're not making any sense...

 

[Sendo Roba]

In that case tell me what Robin is, he could be a costume too.

https://miiverse.nintendo.net/posts/AYMHAAACAABnUYn84Hh1cg

 

[Xtreme Starfox]

Yes she's a "newcomer," what did you expect them to say Vet? If she's an alt costume she's the only one that isn't the same character nor shares the name with anyone else. This may very well explain her special case.

Though what's the technicality of a "alt costume" or "clone" what crosses the line?

If say X was Y with just a visual change but had their own character select icon would they be a clone or a alt? ...I am certain there won't be any agreement.

Just wait for a POTD or something for confirmation.

 

[ihskeyp]

https://miiverse.nintendo.net/posts/AYMHAAACAABnUYn84Hh1cg

Lightdasher was joking to prove the point that Lucina isn't an alt.

 

[DrRiceBoy]

I'm 100% sure she's a new character.

 

[Xtreme Starfox]

Also no idea why people are mentioning blank spaces if they used her horizontal newcomer image, you realise the page rearranges it self based on the resolution your PC is at / size of the window? They had the choice of using it on the non mobile site but they didn't.

 

[Yakko93]

She has a newcomer banner on the mobile website, and it says newcomer next to her name, and it says newcomer when you click her on the site, we don't know anything about dark pit actually so that doesn't provide proof really. And it says 'Newcomer Lucina joins the battle' on the website under the notifications.
It's safe to say she's a character and not an alt. she is a clone though.

I use an Ipad, and she has no Newcomer banner, just a plain one.

 

[ihskeyp]

I use an Ipad, and she has no Newcomer banner, just a plain one.

Well then you're on the desktop version of the site, just on your iPad. People have already posted screenshots of Lucinas banner in the previous pages, and I've seen it myself on my phone. If you have an iPhone, go to the site and see for yourself.

 

[Sendo Roba]

Lightdasher was joking to prove the point that Lucina isn't an alt.

Be that as it may, I was asked to prove a point, and I did so by providing evidence.
I'm not saying I'm right. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying we are all basically guessing. Both sides have their arguments, but no one has l solid proof that can disregard the other side

A wise man once said "Evidence is everything, without it all we have is speculation"

So provide evidence that Ridley is a boss
Provide evidence that Wonder Red is just a trophy
Provide evidence that Lucina is a separate character

 

[Bassoonist]

I use an Ipad, and she has no Newcomer banner, just a plain one.

I apologize if this has already been posted in this topic, but a member of this forum (UberPyro64 I think?) took this photo of the mobile website, see for yourself:

 

[danielvdell]

I'm not saying I think Lucina is definitely an alt. She could very well be a clone character. However:

1. Sakurai is unpredictable, yes, but every single newcomer so far has been very unique. Why now add a clone character? I understand that Lucina, in Awakening, is attempting to mimic Marth, but still, every newcomer so far has been extremely unique (including Robin), and most are given some sort of gimmick.

2. Lucina is so similar to Marth that even her idle animations are the same. At least Toon Link is given different animations.

3. The "?!" at the end of her tagline indicates some sort of uncertainty about her status. It could be because we were expecting Chrom, or it's because she isn't a full-fledged character.

4. We know some alts in this game are much more complex than just model changes, as female Robin is given a new voice entirely. It's very possible, in my opinion, that Lucina, as a Marth alt., could be given a new voice along with new taunts (her mask-removal).

• I'm also aware that we have never had alts. that were entirely different characters. Perhaps that's what this trailer was introducing? I don't particularly like this precedent if it is true, but Lucina is similar enough to Marth in looks and her clone-ness is canonical (she pretends to be Marth in Awakening).

5. Perhaps Sakurai is treating Lucina as a separate character in the trailer and site because introducing alts-that-are-different-characters (like Dark Pit) is being saved for a later date.

I'm also really leaning towards the alt. theory because Lucina is, looks-wise and moves-wise, a female version of Marth. And because Robin was given both a male and female variant, I'm thinking Lucina is being treated as the female variant of Marth.

 

[ihskeyp]

Be that as it may, I was asked to prove a point, and I did so by providing evidence.
I'm not saying I'm right. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying we are all basically guessing. Both sides have their arguments, but no one has l solid proof that can disregard the other side

A wise man once said "Evidence is everything, without it all we have is speculation"

So provide evidence that Ridley is a boss
Provide evidence that Wonder Red is just a trophy
Provide evidence that Lucina is a separate character

Proof that she isn't an alt costume: She is listed as a newcomer on the site.

 

[Fastblade5035]

https://miiverse.nintendo.net/posts/AYMHAAACAADMUKl3WtcEQg

Sakurai himself refers to Robin and Lucina as newcomers. S.

If this isn't convincing enough...

 

[GodOfSocks]

if you go to around 2:00 in the reveal trailer, she does Marth's standing animation where he puts his hand on his armor and takes a deep breath. Lucina, not having any armor there, just holds her hand over nothing. I'm not saying its definite proof, I'm just saying that we can't be sure just because of what has happened in the past.

 

[Your Hero]

Just curious, but to the people who are saying Lucina is an alt: Are you referring to her being an alternate costume with a different VA (similar to Wii Fit Trainer), or as her own character sharing a slot (similar to Zelda/Sheik)? Just curious, because in the former situation you are saying she is truly an alternate skin with no differences while in the latter you are saying she is a unique character, just that she's not getting her own character slot.

 

[danielvdell]

Just curious, but to the people who are saying Lucina is an alt: Are you referring to her being an alternate costume with a different VA (similar to Wii Fit Trainer), as her own character sharing a slot (similar to Zelda/Sheik)? Just curious, because in the former situation you are saying she is truly an alternate skin with no differences while in the latter you are saying she is a unique character, just that she's not getting her own character slot.

An alternate costume with a different voice actor.

 

[ihskeyp]

if you go to around 2:00 in the reveal trailer, she does Marth's standing animation where he puts his hand on his armor and takes a deep breath. Lucina, not having any armor there, just holds her hand over nothing. I'm not saying its definite proof, I'm just saying that we can't be sure just because of what has happened in the past.

In her screenshots in the website, she's holding her mask over her face. So she does have different animations than him.

 

[The21stSmasher]

Just curious, but to the people who are saying Lucina is an alt: Are you referring to her being an alternate costume with a different VA (similar to Wii Fit Trainer), or as her own character sharing a slot (similar to Zelda/Sheik)? Just curious, because in the former situation you are saying she is truly an alternate skin with no differences while in the latter you are saying she is a unique character, just that she's not getting her own character slot.

That's... more likely the case.

 

[Sendo Roba]

Proof that she isn't an alt costume: She is listed as a newcomer on the site.

Because she wasn't in smash previously. Also, Why is she only a full banner on the mobile site, but not the main one?

 

[Bladeviper]

Because she wasn't in smash previously. Also, Why is she only a full banner on the mobile site, but not the main one?

because her and robin share the artwork that goes with the larger banner no need to post it twice

 

[Bassoonist]

Because she wasn't in smash previously. Also, Why is she only a full banner on the mobile site, but not the main one?

Why are the "Warning! New Challenger Approaching!" present on the mobile site, but not the main one?

There is inconsistency between both sites altogether right now. It has no bearing on Lucina's status, which is clearly a new separate character.

 

[Gepona]

Not sure why there's even an argument going on about this. The reason why her box is smaller is because that was the only way to neatly show the characters on the site, but was possible on the mobile version since the screen size and space to display characters was different. Also... I'm pretty sure that this trailer was sorta meant as a "troll" (I don't really like using that term) for people who believed the gematsu leak - myself included - and shown that Chrom was not actually a playable character, but Lucina was. Kinda meant to give a "What?!" feeling.

 

[SvartWolf]

Probably the issue will be tackled at august direct (If there is gonna be one). if she is a "complex alt" thats certainly something sakurai would like to speak of, and even introduce other "complex alts" such as dark pit as for now, we can be entirely sure if is an alt or a melee falco.

But one thing people should have in mind is that brawl rules (specially ones regarding alts) don't apply here. this is a different game. for all we know, Lucina could be an alt and still have a slot on the roster as a different persona.

 

[lightdasher]

This entire argument is ridiculous.

 

[Xtreme Starfox]

Not sure why there's even an argument going on about this. The reason why her box is smaller is because that was the only way to neatly show the characters on the site, but was possible on the mobile version since the screen size and space to display characters was different.

It's like you didn't even read a few posts above. The site automatically organizes it self based on your screen size on PC.

Try it go on the site and shrink the window.

 

[The21stSmasher]

This entire argument is ridiculous.

Yeah, I know...

 

[Sendo Roba]

This entire argument is ridiculous.

Agreed

 

[Snakeyes]

None of the above, she's an Assist Trophy.

Spoiler

Stupid question, stupid answer. Alternate costumes don't get a separate character page.

 

[SpeedBoost]

She is a character no doubt. As of now it is hard to tell I know but soon, I bet we will see small changes here and there; maybe she can use here side aerial twice like Marth could do in Melee :3 There is hope. Hope that Melee Marth lives somehow.

 

[SphericalCrusher]

Looks like the general consensus is... Pretty divided.

For character:
Has a box on the site.
Has a character reveal splash.
Has a few different move animations.

For costume:
Has a small box on the site, implying she isn't as much of a newcomer as the rest. (Mobile site has a bigger box, presumably to fill a gap.)
Her reveal splash appears to be sarcastic. (Japanese trailer is also.)
Very little changes from Marth, appears to be even closer to him then any other clone.
Dark Pit, a different character with a different voice, was implied to be a costume.

Good amount of evidence for either side, but I'm inclined to think she's a costume.

Her gameplay was also shown to be very little compared to Robin. I think it's a character though, although I kinda wish it was a costume and Chrom was playable.

 

[lightdasher]

Apparently having a question mark means it's sarcastic.

No the whole point of that was that she was losing to Capt. Falcon.

 

[EchoesOfRain]

Who knows, perhaps they may introduce Clone slots, where two different characters of the same series who have the same moveset with maybe stat changes share a single slot. Therefore, Link/Toon Link share a slot, Marth/Lucina share a slot, and Fox/Falco share a slot. Assuming they are kept similar, Ganon and C. Falcon would NOT share a slot due being from different series. This could potentially make some more room on the roster

 

[Luigi#1]

Why does this thread exist?

 

[lightdasher]

Assuming they are kept similar, Ganon and C. Falcon would NOT share a slot due being from different series. This could potentially make some more room on the roster

Go all in or don't go in at all, otherwise you're just contradicting yourself.

 

[Shagadelic_Baby]

She's obviously her own character. She has her own final smash.