Q&A Lucina Question and Answer Thread

[SherrdreamZ]

Is it true every Lucina main secretly has a crush on Marth ?

(Of course, we just want to be slightly less capable then our Graceful and Benevolent Lord we Idolize)!

I was wondering if we could compile an option list for Marcina for good mix-ups and followups that not everyone necessarily knows? Sometimes i can be at a loss for how to react when my typically sound tactics are being outmatched. Not necessarily combo Material, but knowing your options gives you more potential to be unpredictable and confound your opponent.

Basic stuff ive picked up along the way...

~FH Retreating Fair can be a good tool if your opponent learns to counter the SH Retreating Fair and is much safer. Also switching up your walling tool with Bair which comes out faster can trip up your opponents pacing in the neutral.

~SH into Airdodge toward your opponent leaves you very safe and you can throw out a Uair into anything you want if you space it correctly, and your opponent appears campy or immobile for the moment. Typical follow ups i use are Utilt or at higher than 100 %, Dolphin Slash.

~Using Phase One of DB after a SH, leaves you enough time to perform a falling Uair which combos together for the most part at most %'s.

~Perfect Pivot SB when you are facing an opponent heavily dependent on Grabs is a good punish tool if you predict their next motion is to dash in toward you...

This isn't really the place to post Tips and Tricks im sure, but it would be nice to accumulate more Marcina Mains Tactics into one place and really expand their Meta in unison, all in one place..

 

[Locuan]

SherrdreamZ , I agree. However, most of the discussion on Lucina's and Marth tools happens on the Marth Boards. Particularly, I have compiled a table of contents with said information:
http://smashboards.com/threads/read-me-marths-competitive-resource-thread.382874/

However, I'm sure we can come up with different stuff here on the Lucina Boards too. If you'd like to go ahead, by all means do so. It'd be awesome to have a Meta thread here on the Lucina boards.

 

[SherrdreamZ]

Alright, the only thing ive really browsed on the Marthboards were his and Lucina's matchups. It's probably better if i used that thread if i wanted to pitch in and discuss the Falchion Meta as combining resources was my intent anywho. Thanks Locuan. ^^

 

[Kulty]

Hi guys,

I was a Marth main in both Melee and Brawl. While I kinda like the fact that I can play two different Marths, I don't know which one to pick. Basically I have two questions :
1) After patch 1.1.1, due to the change in the shield mechanics, who is better or who benefits the most:or?
2) What matchups that has an easier time against compared to ?
I appreciate it if someone can answer those questions... XD

 

[Ark of Silence101]

When taking into account Lucina's differences from Marth, are there any advantages of choosing her over Marth aside from the fact that she can play aggressive/rushdown while Marth can't(if this CAN even be remotely considered an advantage)?

 

[Moydow]

she can play aggressive/rushdown

no she can't, she plays exactly the same as Marth

In gameplay terms there is no reason at all to pick Lucina instead of Marth. The only reason would be if you preferred the character.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

no she can't, she plays exactly the same as Marth

In gameplay terms there is no reason at all to pick Lucina instead of Marth. The only reason would be if you preferred the character.

I play online For Glory a lot, and frankly and personally, the tipper just makes me a more punishable target from my perspective, with Lucina I go rushdown and problem solved, only Zero Suit Samus is an issue when I use Lucina.

 

[Moydow]

I'm sure you're already aware, but For Glory is not a very good measure of what does and doesn't work. Long story short, Lucina ideally needs to aim for tipper range, even though she doesn't get anything extra from it, hence why Marth is just straight-up stronger.

ZSS is a pretty miserable matchup for both Marth and Lucina though.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I'm sure you're already aware, but For Glory is not a very good measure of what does and doesn't work. Long story short, Lucina ideally needs to aim for tipper range, even though she doesn't get anything extra from it, hence why Marth is just straight-up stronger.

ZSS is a pretty miserable matchup for both Marth and Lucina though.

I know this to be true, but like I said, going for the tipper just makes me more punishable and isn't as rewarding as it used to be. Aside from ZSS, what other characters are overall bad/unfavorable for Lucina/Marth?

 

[SherrdreamZ]

I know this to be true, but like I said, going for the tipper just makes me more punishable and isn't as rewarding as it used to be. Aside from ZSS, what other characters are overall bad/unfavorable for Lucina/Marth?

Most Notable would probably be Sonic/Falcon/Shiek/Rosa The rushdowns that outpace Marcina and can hit and run at a better pace than yourself can be hard to punish, and require a defensive playstyle to try to prevent those tactics from outright defeating you. I feel Rosa because many of her attacks out-prioritize your own and have more range. She's also one of the characters with the most exemplory defensive measures, so trying to melee range out zone her is a huge undertaking. Overall very skilled Turtle style players/Characters can be the greatest challenge for Marcina, as their entire game in Smash 4 is to Out Space and Punish. If your adversary is at least going toe to toe with you and their names are not Shiek/ZSS/Falcon/Sonic you have a decent chance with Marcina's tools.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Most Notable would probably be Sonic/Falcon/Shiek/Rosa The rushdowns that outpace Marcina and can hit and run at a better pace than yourself can be hard to punish, and require a defensive playstyle to try to prevent those tactics from outright defeating you. I feel Rosa because many of her attacks out-prioritize your own and have more range. She's also one of the characters with the most exemplory defensive measures, so trying to melee range out zone her is a huge undertaking. Overall very skilled Turtle style players/Characters can be the greatest challenge for Marcina, as their entire game in Smash 4 is to Out Space and Punish. If your adversary is at least going toe to toe with you and their names are not Shiek/ZSS/Falcon/Sonic you have a decent chance with Marcina's tools.

Funny, Falcon and Rosa are the ones I least have trouble, Sonic and Shiek, yeah that's a different story.

 

[Codaption]

The thing about Lucina is that she's much easier to play than Marth, meaning that picking her up is a great way to learn the ins and outs for both characters without getting eaten too hard when you make a mistake. Once you start looking at the pair from a competitive level, though, Lucina becomes little more than a stepping stone; Marth's tipper physics are an inherent bonus to learning how to space your attacks properly, a general skill that's expected of you regardless of what character you play, and Lucina just...doesn't have the same benefits. If you feel comfortable with Lucina, that's just fine, keep doing what you're doing; once you're more comfortable with the pair's general playstyle, though, it might be time to consider a switch.

Also...

going for the tipper just makes me more punishable

What exactly do you mean by this? Tipper hitbox is generally safer because of increased shieldstun and slightly more range (it still kills me that they literally chopped the tipper hitbox off of Lucina's sword), but if you mean something else then I'd like to know. If it's just a matter of having trouble landing it consistently, that makes sense, though I'd still recommend trying to get it down as Lucaina and then trying Marth out again.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

The thing about Lucina is that she's much easier to play than Marth, meaning that picking her up is a great way to learn the ins and outs for both characters without getting eaten too hard when you make a mistake. Once you start looking at the pair from a competitive level, though, Lucina becomes little more than a stepping stone; Marth's tipper physics are an inherent bonus to learning how to space your attacks properly, a general skill that's expected of you regardless of what character you play, and Lucina just...doesn't have the same benefits. If you feel comfortable with Lucina, wthat's just fine, keep doing what you're doing; once you're more comfortable with the pair's general playstyle, though, it might be time to consider a switch.

Also...


What exactly do you mean by this? Tipper hitbox is generally safer because of increased shieldstun and slightly more range (it still kills me that they literally chopped the tipper hitbox off of Lucina's sword), but if you mean something else then I'd like to know. If it's just a matter of having trouble landing it consistently, that makes sense, though I'd still recommend trying to get it down as Lucaina and then trying Marth out again.

What I mean by this is that players I play against know exactly how to avoid the tipper and hence they punish more frequently and the tipper isn't as rewarding as it used to be.

 

[miniada]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...oMZlbJXqKPtHEBFgA&sig2=EHHGjIVNUfg2aRjloRr9Qg we are discussing lucina at the mario boards and would love your input.

 

[Kitzu]

So I'm wondering if there's any combos I can do with Dancing Blade.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

So I'm wondering if there's any combos I can do with Dancing Blade.

I personally use the Dancing Blade mostly just to rack up damage, try using attacks 1-3 with the normal pattern and finish the 4th with down, it helps to rack up damage at lower percentage but don't get carried away, don't use it too often or you'll be left very vulnerable.

 

[Underhill]

I know this to be true, but like I said, going for the tipper just makes me more punishable and isn't as rewarding as it used to be. Aside from ZSS, what other characters are overall bad/unfavorable for Lucina/Marth?

I heard Marth struggles against Pikachu while Lucina may do better against him. I don't know, but that's at least how I think and I don't know much, but I know that the Mu can be annoying for Pikachu since he has to deal with their range.

 

[SherrdreamZ]

I personally use the Dancing Blade mostly just to rack up damage, try using attacks 1-3 with the normal pattern and finish the 4th with down, it helps to rack up damage at lower percentage but don't get carried away, don't use it too often or you'll be left very vulnerable.

I personally tend to go UP on second hit, NORMAL on third hit and DOWN on final hit as it just seems about 90% efficient to hit the whole combo at low %. Its also good if you are going against someone who can break your combo Yoshi/Mario etc as it makes it slightly harder to time their escape. Anytime you catch a Sheilding opponent using Down for dancing blades final strike keeps you a bit safer and eats away at their shield aswell.

 

[Nika]

As for why you would play Lucina competitively over Marth, see the original post in my topic about it: http://smashboards.com/threads/why-i-play-lucina-competitively-over-marth.420004/#post-20460808

The thread has gone a bit off-topic but I stand by the first post. There are in fact reasons to play her beyond just preferring the character.

 

[Codaption]

I have actually learned a bit more about Lucina's upsides in the last few days- she does better against faster characters that can mess with tipper, and jab-> fsmash is apparently guaranteed if you land it up close but Marth can't really get a tipper off of it (confirm?)- so I will admit that my post was a bit uninformed. I still think that Marth's superior spacing options (particularly ftilt, which gives him easier kills at high percents) and his jab mixups are enough to keep her from being outright better than him, but I could see her being at least close to even and possibly worth picking over him in certain scenarios.

 

[Nika]

I once saw posted that a bad Marth is worse than a bad Lucina, but a good Marth is better than a good Lucina. I agree.

However, I think the difference between a good Marth and a good Lucina is pretty small, and it comes down to whichever character you feel more comfortable using.

I don't think jab -> fsmash is ever guaranteed for either one, but maybe against certain characters at certain percents?

 

[Codaption]

Again, I heard that you had to be really close to them for it to work. If anyone else can tell me it's not guaranteed, though, that'd be great.

 

[Nika]

It sounds plausible, yeah. Of course as Lucina you typically don't want to be right next to someone, but if it's a kill confirm then it might be worth sacrificing normal spacing for.

 

[Codaption]

Yeah, it's not like it's a ridiculous option, but either way you'd probably need a hard read to land it and a jab is definitely safer to throw out than a smash attack.

 

[SherrdreamZ]

In FG this works when they are at or over 100% or so 75% of the time. typically leading into a kill or deep edge-guard opportunity. in higher level play, if your opponent DI's away the string is void especially after 120%ish.

 

[Nika]

^Cool, thanks for testing. That checks out with my mental model.

 

[SherrdreamZ]

^Cool, thanks for testing. That checks out with my mental model.

Ive never had the chance to test things without someone else interested in helping me do so. These assertions merely come from my FG experience. The actual logistics would be fun to test if anyone would ever like to do so..

 

[Nika]

Ah okay, thought you went and checked recently. Unfortunately I'm away from any sort of Smash for the next month or two so I can't be of service, heh.

You could probably at least do some basic testing in training mode, but that does make it hard to factor in DI.

 

[SherrdreamZ]

DI and Rage, plus i don't have a person to try to DI away while pulling off the string.

 

[AUnique]

I don't know if this question is passable since its not gameplay-related or anything, but recently I've been wondering, just where is Lucina's metagame going to?
Most of the other characters seem to have something going on for them, but Lucina, and even Marth are kind of lagging behind now.
Has everyone just given up on them?
Is waiting for a game-changing patch the only hope at this point?

I may just be misinformed or something, but thanks in advance!

 

[Izayoi]

I don't know if this question is passable since its not gameplay-related or anything, but recently I've been wondering, just where is Lucina's metagame going to?
Most of the other characters seem to have something going on for them, but Lucina, and even Marth are kind of lagging behind now.
Has everyone just given up on them?
Is waiting for a game-changing patch the only hope at this point?

I may just be misinformed or something, but thanks in advance!

Given up, no, just...it's safe to say that there's very little for us to improve our metagame. Surely, we gained the knowledge of Lagless Get-up but what we lack are countermeasures against the big threats that are top tiers.
Hopelessness isn't exactly the position we are in, we can still outperform others; it's the amount of effort needed (and a little bit of luck) that pulls us back. People that prefer swordplay characters have mostly moved on to Ike and especially Roy, as the latter pretty much uses all the fundamentals Marcina have and pretty much applies it better sans off-stage play.

 

[Nika]

^Disagree. I think the meta is kinda stale but just because people aren't pushing it forward, not because we've reached the limit.

Ike and Roy are super different characters - Roy is pure rushdown while Marth/Lucina are spacing characters, and Ike is a big heavy hitter whereas Marth/Lucina are more balanced.

What I think we need are more creative videos like this one: http://smashboards.com/threads/lucina-marth-tips-tricks-with-cobbs.405810/

...combined with videos of high-level competitive Lucina players actually using and discussing that sort of tech. I think the lack of competitive Lucinas is creating a positive feedback loop where people assume her metagame has nowhere to go, so potentially competitive players abandon her.

In other words, we can do it! If you're not a high-level competitive player, hit the lab and share tech. If you are, pay attention to new tech and share gameplay videos.

 

[AUnique]

Well, yeah, that explains the lack of competitive activity on these boards (no offense).
But the real issue is, since there are no competitive players, there's no one to directly push the meta forward, this also meaning there's no one aspiring Lucina players (like me) can look up to as a role model to improve.

It's sad, watching your favorite character decline like this... Wish I could do something about it...

Thanks for the input you two!

 

[Nika]

Sure thing. I'm a competitive player but I've only been on stream a couple times - you can check the videos topic for them, though I only win 1/5 games total :\

I'll be sure to post more if I get any! In the meantime keep posting questions and I'm happy to answer what I can.

 

[Locuan]

AUnique , most of the competitive discussion for both characters ends up occurring on the Marth sub-forum. Much like the shared match-up thread. I recommend you head over there and check out the data. There's a lot to learn.

http://smashboards.com/forums/marth.416/
http://smashboards.com/threads/read-me-marths-competitive-resource-thread.382874/

 

[AUnique]

Locuan Thanks! But I've already checked the Marth sub-forum before, and although competitive discussion is certainly better than here, I can't seem to find much to learn, aside from some threads linked to the Competitive Resource one; I've read tons of stuff there already.

What I find kind of lacking though is Matchup discussion. Only a few of the vs x Character matchup threads have some input, which bewilders me since I thought Marth and Lucina were among the most popular characters despite their flaws, and matchups are super important for a character's meta.

Soo... I'd like to ask you a favor, if you don't mind.
Could you please indicate me where to go/what to in order to gain some matchup knowlegde? Or could I just ask about specific MUs over here?
Thanks in advance.

 

[Locuan]

The problem with match-ups is that with the constant patch changes, things do end up changing. And Marth and Lucina where no different. As far as match-up knowledge goes, you can always ask in the Q&A's of both sub-forums, challenge people in other character sub-forums to battle, and watch videos on top level play from Marth's or Lucina's. As for Marth, KJ22 is a good example while NEO represents Lucina and Marth really well.

Current Match-Up Thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-discussion-and-analysis-directory.414156/

The old ones:
http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-match-up-discussion-update-zss.383174/
http://smashboards.com/threads/lucina-match-up-discussion-update-kirby.373171/

 

[AUnique]

Woah, that sure was quick...

I think I get it now, thanks a lot (again).
Anyway, hopefully I'm not being overly intense or something, but to start off, a question to no one in particular:

What is the general gameplan for the Sheik MU? I've heard it's among our worst ones due to the need to approach Sheik because of needles.
Also, I read somewhere that Lucina's disadvantage state is better than Marth's, and you can shift momentum more easily with her. Does this give Lucina some kind of minuscular advantage over Marth in the MU, since you'll most probably be in disadvantage like, I don't know, 1/4 of the match? Is it even true?

 

[SherrdreamZ]

Locuan Thanks! But I've already checked the Marth sub-forum before, and although competitive discussion is certainly better than here, I can't seem to find much to learn, aside from some threads linked to the Competitive Resource one; I've read tons of stuff there already.

What I find kind of lacking though is Matchup discussion. Only a few of the vs x Character matchup threads have some input, which bewilders me since I thought Marth and Lucina were among the most popular characters despite their flaws, and matchups are super important for a character's meta.

Soo... I'd like to ask you a favor, if you don't mind.
Could you please indicate me where to go/what to in order to gain some matchup knowlegde? Or could I just ask about specific MUs over here?
Thanks in advance.

If you still have interest, a few lucina Mains have pitched into an MU discussion, yet for some reason it has dismal activity, "maybe the lowest of all characters" But if you wanted to pitch in your thoughts or look at what other Lucina mains say.. It couldn't hurt. ^_^
http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-chart-project-2015-calling-lucina-mains.422729/

IMO Lucina does not have any MU's Superior to Marth's, does that mean she has no advantages at all? No i wouldn't say that however overall she has less tools as even Marth's sourspot attacks can lead into more strings, and Tipper is safer on Shield overall especially in 1.1.1.

 

[Nika]

The Sheik MU is maybe our worst in the game. Sheik is super in good in general, she has a projectile, she's a fastfaller, she has extremely fast punishes, and she's essentially impossible to gimp.

In general, you need to space perfectly (tip of the sword) in neutral and try to get under her if you can. Use jabs and fading fairs, or dash in and grab if you read a shield. You can establish stage control pretty easily, but it's hard to take advantage of.

At 0%, you kind of need to grab her to build up any damage, but fortunately she falls so fast that I think you can get two dthrow-uair combos off. After around 25%, DB up starts comboing, and continues until maybe 75%. Luckily she's fairly light, so you can eventually kill with uthrow, utilt, or ftilt around 150% - I've even killed her with nair from center stage around 170%. Of course if you can land a good fsmash, she'll die around 80%, but don't fish too much.

Don't bother chasing offstage unless you're extremely confident, it probably won't work and you run the risk of getting gimped. (Fun fact: you can't effectively use Counter against Bouncing Fish, it'll block the damage but she flips away too fast for you to land the counter-hit.) While you're recovering, make sure to dodge offstage Bouncing Fish, and just go as low as possible and sweetspot Dolphin Slash.

The most important thing with this MU is patience. She'll hit you a lot, and combo you a lot - just accept it and calmly chase her down. We can kill Sheik way earlier than she can kill us, and if you space correctly she can actually have trouble getting in. Just don't get flustered and build up damage. Also our sword can pressure her into shielding a lot, so take advantage of that to run in and grab, or even try a quick (tapped) Shield Breaker if her shield is running low.

As for the needles... you just gotta anticipate them and short hop or shield. They're a huge pain in the ass, but there's not much you can do about them other than that.