Q&A Lucina Question and Answer Thread

ReRaze

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Is lucina really considered not viable? If so why? What makes her so bad?
 

Iceweasel

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Did Shield Breaker get a buff in 1.0.8? I seem to be breaking shields a lot more often now. Did it get a tipper?

Is lucina really considered not viable? If so why? What makes her so bad?
Frame data, mostly.
 

Moydow

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Did Shield Breaker get a buff in 1.0.8? I seem to be breaking shields a lot more often now. Did it get a tipper?
It got a slight boost in damage in 1.0.6:
Thinkaman said:
Ground Shield Breaker Uncharged
all hitboxes
damage 8.075 -> 8.5
Ground Shield Breaker Charged
all hitboxes
damage 21.85 -> 23
No changes in 1.0.8.
 

ReRaze

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Did Shield Breaker get a buff in 1.0.8? I seem to be breaking shields a lot more often now. Did it get a tipper?


Frame data, mostly.
Frame data is fine imo, they even have combo breakers in uair and up b, something most other chars lack.
 

Iceweasel

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Frame data is fine imo, they even have combo breakers in uair and up b, something most other chars lack.
I feel that Marth/Lucina's disadvantages are considered by the community to be bigger than they are, but let's be real - They don't have a lot of combo potential and quite a lot of their moves require a fair amount of commitment, at least in comparison to their damage/knockback output and combo ability. Lucina's only outstanding moves, in my opinion, are fsmash, counter, and shield breaker. Compare her kit to something like Link's, who also requires a lot of commitment and has lacking combo potential, but deals heavy damage and has projectiles to help make up for his close-range shortcomings. You could also point to Roy, who has good combo potential, great frame data, and kills early, but is mostly unsafe on shield. These are not broken characters, but they're clearly better because they have a more favorable risk/reward ratio.
 

ReRaze

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I feel that Marth/Lucina's disadvantages are considered by the community to be bigger than they are, but let's be real - They don't have a lot of combo potential and quite a lot of their moves require a fair amount of commitment, at least in comparison to their damage/knockback output and combo ability. Lucina's only outstanding moves, in my opinion, are fsmash, counter, and shield breaker. Compare her kit to something like Link's, who also requires a lot of commitment and has lacking combo potential, but deals heavy damage and has projectiles to help make up for his close-range shortcomings. You could also point to Roy, who has good combo potential, great frame data, and kills early, but is mostly unsafe on shield. These are not broken characters, but they're clearly better because they have a more favorable risk/reward ratio.
Really they just have great tools to condition the opponent and choosing the right options in the right situations and its through that that they get alot of reward imo.

You are half right about the commitment thing, Shield breaker requires alot of commitment but it is a devastating move and its not hard to condition your opponent into shielding as marth and lucina. With most of their other moves don't require as much commitment though like dtilt, fair, nair, uair heck even dancing blade, all of these lead into great combos and even kill setups, I find no risk in using these moves if you know how to use them and space them

Roy and Link have alot of commitment on most of their moves too.

They arent like the other characters, someone like luigi gets easy damage of grabs but Marth and Lucina can keep up they just require more effort. It just takes an intelligent player to use them properly.

Their recovery is arguably better than most people think, e.g Roy's. Roy may have super armour but Marth and Lucinas go higher, has invincibility on startup, has potentisl to kill earlier (even has a kill setup) and is faster. They also have an amazing offstage game.
 
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Flowen231

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I've noticed that I can get alot of grabs out the new jab 1. I've also seen some people stringing a F smash from jab1, is it guaranteed, a mixup, or a read?
 

Moydow

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The only guaranteed (as in, true combo) follow-up from the new jab1 is jab2. Everything else is probably escapable, though at higher percents they're more difficult to react to. At lower percents you're better off trying for something like jab2 or f-tilt, and hold off on f-smash until about 80%+.
 

Iceweasel

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It's a mixup. Jab>grab usually only works in mid-percents against grounded opponents. I've never had an opportunity to try jab>fsmash, aside from these mixups Jab isn't really a good move to use.
 

JuanP_91

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Lately, I've been having quite some trouble against rushdown or pressure characters, or pretty much anyone with good mobility.
As it is known, a whiff is pretty much a punish most of the time, so I can't create walls constantly to block movement or even try to punish.

Whats the best strategy in these matchups?
 

Iceweasel

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Lately, I've been having quite some trouble against rushdown or pressure characters, or pretty much anyone with good mobility.
As it is known, a whiff is pretty much a punish most of the time, so I can't create walls constantly to block movement or even try to punish.

Whats the best strategy in these matchups?
Footsie characters are looking for a reaction. However they approach and whatever they use to retreat, they want to see what you'll do to defend yourself and try to condition you to pick a certain option over your others. Just don't react. Wait until you think they're about to go in, then use whatever you think will hit. This will work for most of the first stock, but that's about all that counts in Smash 4 thanks to every TO using the ****ty APEX ruleset.

Pressure characters are a bit more difficult to deal with, but their M.O. is to stay in your space. If they don't think they can attack you, they'll stay close enough to be a threat. Just try to remember when they are and aren't a threat, and don't let their relentless pursuit go to your head (easier said than done). It's not all you need to do, but it helps a lot.
 
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JuanP_91

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Footsie characters are looking for a reaction. However they approach and whatever they use to retreat, they want to see what you'll do to defend yourself and try to condition you to pick a certain option over your others. Just don't react. Wait until you think they're about to go in, then use whatever you think will hit. This will work for most of the first stock, but that's about all that counts in Smash 4 thanks to every TO using the ****ty APEX ruleset.

Pressure characters are a bit more difficult to deal with, but their M.O. is to stay in your space. If they don't think they can attack you, they'll stay close enough to be a threat. Just try to remember when they are and aren't a threat, and don't let their relentless pursuit go to your head (easier said than done). It's not all you need to do, but it helps a lot.
Thanks for the help.

So vs Footsie characters its basically a matter of conditioning and reads, right?
And vs Pressure I guess whats best is knowing the opponents options at given situations and react accordingly...

On another topic, did Lucina get any frame-level changes this patch?

Edit: Forget about the last question
 
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Beamer_Chillager

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So I'm very new to Lucina (the buffs appeal to me hehe), and I've been labbing for a bit now and I noticed first hit nair to fsmash is a thing. I think you can airdodge it but you counter that by charging. Can anyone confirm this? I'm sorry if this has already been discussed
 

Rebel13

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Yeah this has been discussed. Fastfalling the nair true combos into lots of things, though I personally have not tried using it with Fsmash. This works a bit better with the extra damage (more hitstun) and fewer frames of endlag from the most recent patch, but it worked before in 1.0.8. I don't believe that's actually an autocancel either. Maybe someone can correct me on that.
 
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Locuan

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@ Beamer_Chillager Beamer_Chillager , it doesn't autocancel. However, it can be used to get follow ups out of it. Also, we have a question and answer thread. I moved it to this location. Please use the thread whenever you have questions regarding Lucina's gameplay.
 

Moydow

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Not only in the air or while moving. It also works while stationary on the ground, or even while dashing (if you do it while dashing, you also slide a little in the opposite direction). Though using it in the air is the most common, as a way of faking out the opponent while landing (this of course applies to any character).

Is it anything like :4falcon:or :4ganondorf:reversed Falcon/Warlock Punch?
Exactly like that, yes (as far as input is concerned)
 
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Iceweasel

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Is it anything like :4falcon:or :4ganondorf:reversed Falcon/Warlock Punch?
Nope. Falcon and Dorf's aerial momentum stays the same, but they turn around. This is a turnaround-B, not a B-reverse. If you've ever seen someone use their neutral B in the air and completely change their direction, that's a B-Reverse.

Don't confuse B-Reverse, which is a move you can only do in the air, with turnaround B, which you can do on the air or the ground. A B-Reverse is a turnaround-B done in the air, it's just that when you turnaround-B in the air (except with Dorf and Falcon) it reverses your horizontal momentum.

Actually, I think you can B-Reverse on the ground, but only in training mode. Set the speed to 1/4, then do a dashing shield breaker in the direction opposite of the one you dashed in. With practice, you might be able to do it at normal speed, but I can't think of many reasons why you'd want to, at least with Lucina. Not to mention the unreliability of the insane timing to pull it off. I can't remember if that changes your momentum or just your direction, though.
 

Skyfox2000

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Not only in the air or while moving. It also works while stationary on the ground, or even while dashing (if you do it while dashing, you also slide a little in the opposite direction). Though using it in the air is the most common, as a way of faking out the opponent while landing (this of course applies to any character).


Exactly like that, yes.
Seems like I've tried that before and it didn't work (Oh well.. I'll give in another go.)


*Disregard this*
@ Iceweasel Iceweasel done answered my question!!
 
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Codaption

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I honestly don't think that Falcon Punch/Warlock Punch can be b-reversed, at least not in the normal sense- if you could, you'd be seeing B-reversed Reverse Warlock Punches all over for glory. Some moves are just like that, except that in most cases they can't be reversed in ANY way (think Falco's reflector, for example).
 

Iceweasel

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I honestly don't think that Falcon Punch/Warlock Punch can be b-reversed, at least not in the normal sense- if you could, you'd be seeing B-reversed Reverse Warlock Punches all over for glory. Some moves are just like that, except that in most cases they can't be reversed in ANY way (think Falco's reflector, for example).
You can't do a turnaround shine with Falco? I know you can do it with Fox's shine and the Fire Emblem counters. IIRC you can't do that with Falcon Kick, but I don't think I ever tried at 25% speed.

*One lab trip later*

Huh, so you can't. I wonder if there's a pattern between the down-Bs you can turn around and those you can't?
 

Locuan

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It's on frame 11. Only one. However, I believe he is asking for setups when he is able to get the spike. It's usually best when they are directly below you.
 

ShadowKing

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It's on frame 11. Only one. However, I believe he is asking for setups when he is able to get the spike. It's usually best when they are directly below you.
Exactly like combo options example The Ken Combo for melee
 

Wnyke

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Is there any combo guide for Lucina?...

anyway, I don't know if someone else has talked about this string of moves before, so I will leave it here, if it's the wrong place please let me know...

The string is the following, jab1 -> DB1st -> Nair1st -> Finisher, Marth can do it too, i guess... You can even start the cycle over, and any of the 3 mentioned moves can start the combo... I think it works properly on medium weight characters from 30% to 110%...

Have a good day.
 

ketchupman7

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I hear the neutral air for Lucina is amazing, but I mostly approach with short hop into a forward air fast fall followed by a dash attack (probably not nearly the most efficient way to approach so if you have any tips for that, that would be appreciated.) Anyway, I rarely use the neutral air; and even if I do, I normally only get the first hit on the animation off before the enemy falls out of it, this is normally on early percentage. Am I doing something wrong? Is it only effective at high percentages?
 

Saki-

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Is there any combo guide for Lucina?...

anyway, I don't know if someone else has talked about this string of moves before, so I will leave it here, if it's the wrong place please let me know...

The string is the following, jab1 -> DB1st -> Nair1st -> Finisher, Marth can do it too, i guess... You can even start the cycle over, and any of the 3 mentioned moves can start the combo... I think it works properly on medium weight characters from 30% to 110%...

Have a good day.
Hmm I'm not quite sure on the credibility on that. I could maybe see the jab into DB, but the ending lag after that would make going for a nair really difficult.

As for a set of options, there are a few guides. If visual is your thing you could see if any of the following is still applicable on the current patch.

I hear the neutral air for Lucina is amazing, but I mostly approach with short hop into a forward air fast fall followed by a dash attack (probably not nearly the most efficient way to approach so if you have any tips for that, that would be appreciated.) Anyway, I rarely use the neutral air; and even if I do, I normally only get the first hit on the animation off before the enemy falls out of it, this is normally on early percentage. Am I doing something wrong? Is it only effective at high percentages?
Neutral air is a great tool for Marcina, it can cancel on landing and if spaced is safe on shield, which is what I believe to be what you're experiencing. You're catching the opponent in the nair but landing before the second hit lands? Personally I like to avoid throwing out dash attacks due to how vulnerable I can be if I miss or hit shield. I play a very Brawl Lucina and like to focus my approaches with walking and jabs and pivot options. I'd avoid trying to use short hop fair as a means to approach if your opponent is grounded. You'll most likely end up taking more damage than you will dish it due to how unsafe it tends to be.
 
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Rango the Mercenary

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What kind of grab setups and combos does Lucina have? I don't know what her most reliable throw is, so I just pick one at random.
 

Iceweasel

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What kind of grab setups and combos does Lucina have? I don't know what her most reliable throw is, so I just pick one at random.
The only grab setup I know is Jab 1, and that's dependent on a large number of factors (opponent weight, whether they're airborne, and percents). Though this could have changed since the shieldstun change, I haven't had an opportunity to play in about a month.

Lucina, AFAIK, has almost no true combos more than 2-3 hits long. Your opponent DI determines what followups you get. That said, she has really good utilt, uair, fair, and bair, so you have plenty of options for juggling, even if you can only ever apply one to any given situation.

Her throws are not very good. Dthrow and uthrow can get followups at low percents, and at mid to high percents an uthrow can lead into juggle attempts. Near the ledge, at high percents backthrow gives enough distance to set up an edgeguard attempt, but Lucina's aerials generally aren't fast enough to cover most recovery attempts.

I can't see any real reason for an Ike main to pick up Lucina. I play Lucina because her fundamentals-based playstyle, combined with her disjoints and lack of a sweetspot complements my main well. Ike seems to have most everything Lucina does, but with more disjoint and the ability to wall.


BTW, did I fight you in Macon two months ago? I think I played Link and Roy, but I might have played Link and Lucina.
 

Rango the Mercenary

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The only grab setup I know is Jab 1, and that's dependent on a large number of factors (opponent weight, whether they're airborne, and percents). Though this could have changed since the shieldstun change, I haven't had an opportunity to play in about a month.

Lucina, AFAIK, has almost no true combos more than 2-3 hits long. Your opponent DI determines what followups you get. That said, she has really good utilt, uair, fair, and bair, so you have plenty of options for juggling, even if you can only ever apply one to any given situation.

Her throws are not very good. Dthrow and uthrow can get followups at low percents, and at mid to high percents an uthrow can lead into juggle attempts. Near the ledge, at high percents backthrow gives enough distance to set up an edgeguard attempt, but Lucina's aerials generally aren't fast enough to cover most recovery attempts.

I can't see any real reason for an Ike main to pick up Lucina. I play Lucina because her fundamentals-based playstyle, combined with her disjoints and lack of a sweetspot complements my main well. Ike seems to have most everything Lucina does, but with more disjoint and the ability to wall.


BTW, did I fight you in Macon two months ago? I think I played Link and Roy, but I might have played Link and Lucina.
You definitely did.

I'm using Lucina for fun. My true secondaries are Mario, Link, and Palutena. But I've been experimenting with other sword characters, like Marth, Lucina, Roy, Shulk, and even Pit to see how well I do with them.
 
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