Trozz
Smash Ace
D-air vs MK is hard to use. MK is too short and has way too many options when you're above him and he's grounded.
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Lucas matchup discussion. (overhaul in progress)
- Thread starter Levitas
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TechnoMonster
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2008
- Messages
- 836
vs. Peach:
This is a pretty detailed matchup, I play against a pretty good peach on the regular. Take her seriously.
Peach has a lot of quick moves and a lot of priority. Lucas has an advantage in the matchup, however.
1) Peach can't close distance quickly enough to accurately punish well spaced PK fire or B-sticked unless you use it in tight quarters. PKF is super spammable in this matchup. Try to match her height when she floats over to let her know that we're not playing that game.
2) Peach's best move is down-airing on your head, and she can do it repeatedly and chase your roll with a f- or b-air if she's good. You can PKT out of shield to get out of it if your timing is excellent.
3) Peach's jab is fast as **** and you won't be fast enough to grab any of her aerials if she cancels them into jabs correctly. Just wait for it and grab out of the jab, and hope your big *** head doesn't get hit.
4) D-smash is still pretty good for pressuring. Memorize the timing with shield lag, and FJ D-air to escape!
5) Land those KO moves! You can always find a way to upsmash a Peach!
This is more a battle of attrition than it is a kill or be killed matchup. Just make sure your PKFs aren't getting predicted and punished, and you aren't dropping your shield too early in her pressure strings and you'll be fabulous.
This is a pretty detailed matchup, I play against a pretty good peach on the regular. Take her seriously.
Peach has a lot of quick moves and a lot of priority. Lucas has an advantage in the matchup, however.
1) Peach can't close distance quickly enough to accurately punish well spaced PK fire or B-sticked unless you use it in tight quarters. PKF is super spammable in this matchup. Try to match her height when she floats over to let her know that we're not playing that game.
2) Peach's best move is down-airing on your head, and she can do it repeatedly and chase your roll with a f- or b-air if she's good. You can PKT out of shield to get out of it if your timing is excellent.
3) Peach's jab is fast as **** and you won't be fast enough to grab any of her aerials if she cancels them into jabs correctly. Just wait for it and grab out of the jab, and hope your big *** head doesn't get hit.
4) D-smash is still pretty good for pressuring. Memorize the timing with shield lag, and FJ D-air to escape!
5) Land those KO moves! You can always find a way to upsmash a Peach!
This is more a battle of attrition than it is a kill or be killed matchup. Just make sure your PKFs aren't getting predicted and punished, and you aren't dropping your shield too early in her pressure strings and you'll be fabulous.
Concerning Snake:
I found that a simple short hopped Dair is a pretty effective way of punishing SnakeDashing. If done right, Lucas floats just above Snake's dash while Snake collides face first into some Psi energy. Of course, given the speed of SnakeDashing, one or more of the following conditions must be met:
-You have god-like reflexes.
-Snake dashes from far enough away that you have time to react.
-You can predict the Snake player well enough to know when he's going to SnakeDash.
-You preemptively SHDair "just in case" and luck out.
As an added bonus, if Snake has high enough damage there's potential that you can lead this into a jab lock followed by an FSmash finish.
I found that a simple short hopped Dair is a pretty effective way of punishing SnakeDashing. If done right, Lucas floats just above Snake's dash while Snake collides face first into some Psi energy. Of course, given the speed of SnakeDashing, one or more of the following conditions must be met:
-You have god-like reflexes.
-Snake dashes from far enough away that you have time to react.
-You can predict the Snake player well enough to know when he's going to SnakeDash.
-You preemptively SHDair "just in case" and luck out.
As an added bonus, if Snake has high enough damage there's potential that you can lead this into a jab lock followed by an FSmash finish.
ForteX
Smash Journeyman
I guess I could throw in my two cents here. It's mostly for Meta Knight though. I have no idea if it's been mentioned yet or not, but...
When Meta Knight has you off the stage and is approaching for a fair, don't double jump, go straight into PKT2. Chances are you're not far enough away from the stage to screw up, and if he gets too close, you can hit him with the PKT, or yourself. Lucas' second jump is frustratingly slow compared to Meta's fair, so in my experience, it's been better to PKT yourself back to the stage. I've only played a few good MKs, but this seemed to work for all of them.
Also, much thanks to this thread. Helped me beat Snake.
EDIT: A few extra things on Snake. It may not work with all Snake players, but I'm sure it can be pulled off for a good deal of them especially if they're hot on pouring explosives all over the stage. Try knocking him into his own crap. It's especially easy with the mines. If he's put one near the sides of the stage or anything, nair into ftilt him, if you're close enough it'll have enough knockback to throw him onto his own mine. Sometimes it works with C-4, but I would hope A snake player would have the timing of his C-4's self detonation down and blow it up before it becomes a threat to him. If they try the guided missile, you can hit it back with the stick just as well as any other projectile, and since it travels sort of slow, it's a pretty easy target. It's a bit risky if your damage is too high, so it's probably best to try and get him another way when he uses it if you're not too sure of yourself. Just a note: When you hit the guided missile back, it takes a small downwards path. Chances are it'll still hit, but if it misses, at least you got the satisfaction of ruining it. :/ As far as I know, Snake's stuck with the missile launcher until the missile explodes, but I have no idea if that does any good or not. I have been able to catch and throw a few grenades, but I don't suggest doing that, since most good Snakes will hold them until they're ready to explode.
When Meta Knight has you off the stage and is approaching for a fair, don't double jump, go straight into PKT2. Chances are you're not far enough away from the stage to screw up, and if he gets too close, you can hit him with the PKT, or yourself. Lucas' second jump is frustratingly slow compared to Meta's fair, so in my experience, it's been better to PKT yourself back to the stage. I've only played a few good MKs, but this seemed to work for all of them.
Also, much thanks to this thread. Helped me beat Snake.
EDIT: A few extra things on Snake. It may not work with all Snake players, but I'm sure it can be pulled off for a good deal of them especially if they're hot on pouring explosives all over the stage. Try knocking him into his own crap. It's especially easy with the mines. If he's put one near the sides of the stage or anything, nair into ftilt him, if you're close enough it'll have enough knockback to throw him onto his own mine. Sometimes it works with C-4, but I would hope A snake player would have the timing of his C-4's self detonation down and blow it up before it becomes a threat to him. If they try the guided missile, you can hit it back with the stick just as well as any other projectile, and since it travels sort of slow, it's a pretty easy target. It's a bit risky if your damage is too high, so it's probably best to try and get him another way when he uses it if you're not too sure of yourself. Just a note: When you hit the guided missile back, it takes a small downwards path. Chances are it'll still hit, but if it misses, at least you got the satisfaction of ruining it. :/ As far as I know, Snake's stuck with the missile launcher until the missile explodes, but I have no idea if that does any good or not. I have been able to catch and throw a few grenades, but I don't suggest doing that, since most good Snakes will hold them until they're ready to explode.
My arch enemies main is falco and it's pretty dam good.
I recently made lucas my main and i can take him now.
Against the chaingrabs it's gonna be hard to get out but u gotta either airdodge, DI or fair to get out of it.
A good fake would be PKT2 since most instinctivly auto reflect, and if u curve around real quick you can usually get a good hit on him and if not get in his face.
When he's off the edge and he does that sideb crap, make ur self even with him and PKF him over and over and force him to upb, then jump off and bair him down to his death.
i h8 falco.
I recently made lucas my main and i can take him now.
Against the chaingrabs it's gonna be hard to get out but u gotta either airdodge, DI or fair to get out of it.
A good fake would be PKT2 since most instinctivly auto reflect, and if u curve around real quick you can usually get a good hit on him and if not get in his face.
When he's off the edge and he does that sideb crap, make ur self even with him and PKF him over and over and force him to upb, then jump off and bair him down to his death.
i h8 falco.
gantrain05
Smash Master
against my friends marth i like to keep a good distance away and spam those pkf and as soon as he makes a mistake and leaves himself open, i rush in there and dash attack to knock him up in the air, then i use alot of short hop > fast falls and some random Uair to fake him out, and usually he will eventually end up using counter and then i give him a good Fair or Fsmash depending on how high he is when he uses it, but on small stages like smashville i do ALOT of spot dodging and quick jab combos to keep him outta my face and edgegaurd with some pkt works pretty well, his marth rarely beats my lucas.
TechnoMonster
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2008
- Messages
- 836
Best way to get out of the Falco CG with Lucas is to spam jump and you can footstool him if he's too slow. If he hits you in the grab twirl the stick twice fast as ****, and continue to spam jump to try to break or jump break.
x9whitey9x
Smash Journeyman
So what's the deal with Lucario? My friend plays him almost exclusively, and I want to win with more ease.
Levitas
the moon
Lucario's moves are pretty slow. If you close the gap quickly with Nairs and tilts, you're gonna do fine. If he wants to camp, use some pk fire, use a magnet on uncharged shots.
Is there a specific strategy that he's using that's giving you trouble?
Is there a specific strategy that he's using that's giving you trouble?
x9whitey9x
Smash Journeyman
I guess it's more of the fact that Lucario seems to have a really fast roll/dodge thing, and we end up dodging the same way.. but as I finish dodging he's already F-smashing. I also have trouble figuring out which smash to use, although I can certainly fix that with practice. I already magnet more than half of his aura shots, because he tends to spam them fully charged.
ZMan
Smash Master
vs. Wario
If he approaches on the bike, Wavebounce a Pk Fire into his head. It'll knock him off his bike. Keep his bike intact on the stage, his recovery will be hampered if he doesn't have his bike. Ftilts are good out of shielded aerials. Don't go below him, he'll footstool to fart, the most devistating and hilarious combo in the game.
If he approaches on the bike, Wavebounce a Pk Fire into his head. It'll knock him off his bike. Keep his bike intact on the stage, his recovery will be hampered if he doesn't have his bike. Ftilts are good out of shielded aerials. Don't go below him, he'll footstool to fart, the most devistating and hilarious combo in the game.
TechnoMonster
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2008
- Messages
- 836
I think Kirby is one of the worst matchups for Lucas; he can chaingrab you pretty seriously, his shortness is a hassle, and Kirbycide is pretty fail.
Trozz
Smash Ace
Really? I haven't had problems with Kirby before. I haven't played against any really pro Kirby mains though.
As for Wario, the biggest threat is his d-air in to f-smash combo. He can do the shoulder kill immediately after landing a d-air. I'd use u-tilt more, but I don't really like its hit box. Instead, I just distance myself and use stupid amounts of PKF.
As for Wario, the biggest threat is his d-air in to f-smash combo. He can do the shoulder kill immediately after landing a d-air. I'd use u-tilt more, but I don't really like its hit box. Instead, I just distance myself and use stupid amounts of PKF.
ZMan
Smash Master
But you outrange and out prioritize kirby on every though.
vs. Pit just watch out for those arrows espaccialy if he's arrow looping. They'll go right up your *** if you don't pay attiention. Really just play smart and don't go in the air. Pit wrecks you in the air.
vs. Pit just watch out for those arrows espaccialy if he's arrow looping. They'll go right up your *** if you don't pay attiention. Really just play smart and don't go in the air. Pit wrecks you in the air.
ParanoidDrone
Smash Master
Couldn't you just Magnet Pit's arrows? o_O
Galeon
Smash Ace
Kirby goes even with Lucas. They're both close range characters except Lucas has a reliable projectile. Offstage he can gimp you with his multiple jumps but most characters can **** with Lucas when he has to up-b back to the stage. Also, if you block his side-smash, you can dair out of shield for a jab lock attempt. He also dies really early.
And if you're fighting a Pit, the match isn't hard just because of arrows. You can absorb them which is fine but the issue comes up when you're offstage. Pretty much anything Pit follows you with out there is going to get you killed. Catching a bair while Lucas has to di down and away during his PKT HURTS. His up-b pushes you away from your PKT while you're doing it so you'll die. His side-b can blast the PKT into you. You can PKT again but the knockback might kill you. He can arrow your PKT while you're trying to recover. The arrows tier your PKT in priority and both disappear meaning you die. And of course, there's the mirror. If Pit didn't have this move, the match might be more balanced but his mirror will gimp you at any percent. Whether he mirrors you during your PKT2 or if he mirrors your PKT1 while you try to hit yourself, you just lost your stock. Ways to get around it are delaying your PKT2 by double looping it. That is, instead of just making a D shape with your PKT to hit yourself, make a 3 shape so he mirrors early and you can blast past him. You can also shoot yourself straight up but that isn't a very reliable way to make it back to safe ground vs Pit. You can also just attack him as he falls with you and hope he reaches the point of no return before you (forced to use his up-b before you). That also isn't very reliable but sometimes a quick fair gives you enough time to up-b back.
I consider a smart Pit pretty close to a counterpick for Lucas. A turtling Pit is very hard to break. By turtling though, I don't mean shamelessly shooting arrows that you're going to absorb. I mean stuff like staying in shield, retreating aerials, etc. A good Pit will use his arrows on you onstage as a means of approach also. When this situation comes up, remember that you can roll out of your magnet or up-smash (If you predict him to like the 10th power) out of it. His side smash is fast enough to set Lucas up for an edgeguarding situation off of any lag Lucas might encounter. The match isn't unwinnable by any means but its certainly an uphill battle.
And if you're fighting a Pit, the match isn't hard just because of arrows. You can absorb them which is fine but the issue comes up when you're offstage. Pretty much anything Pit follows you with out there is going to get you killed. Catching a bair while Lucas has to di down and away during his PKT HURTS. His up-b pushes you away from your PKT while you're doing it so you'll die. His side-b can blast the PKT into you. You can PKT again but the knockback might kill you. He can arrow your PKT while you're trying to recover. The arrows tier your PKT in priority and both disappear meaning you die. And of course, there's the mirror. If Pit didn't have this move, the match might be more balanced but his mirror will gimp you at any percent. Whether he mirrors you during your PKT2 or if he mirrors your PKT1 while you try to hit yourself, you just lost your stock. Ways to get around it are delaying your PKT2 by double looping it. That is, instead of just making a D shape with your PKT to hit yourself, make a 3 shape so he mirrors early and you can blast past him. You can also shoot yourself straight up but that isn't a very reliable way to make it back to safe ground vs Pit. You can also just attack him as he falls with you and hope he reaches the point of no return before you (forced to use his up-b before you). That also isn't very reliable but sometimes a quick fair gives you enough time to up-b back.
I consider a smart Pit pretty close to a counterpick for Lucas. A turtling Pit is very hard to break. By turtling though, I don't mean shamelessly shooting arrows that you're going to absorb. I mean stuff like staying in shield, retreating aerials, etc. A good Pit will use his arrows on you onstage as a means of approach also. When this situation comes up, remember that you can roll out of your magnet or up-smash (If you predict him to like the 10th power) out of it. His side smash is fast enough to set Lucas up for an edgeguarding situation off of any lag Lucas might encounter. The match isn't unwinnable by any means but its certainly an uphill battle.
TheSMASHtyke
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2008
- Messages
- 380
I'm sorry If this the wrong place to dicuss this, but something's been bugging me about the marth "Chain grab" thing.
Why can't you just do a jump grab escape instead of being released on the ground? (My grammer is kind of poor, but I'm not suggesting escapeing the grab and jumping)
Edit: oh, thank you
Why can't you just do a jump grab escape instead of being released on the ground? (My grammer is kind of poor, but I'm not suggesting escapeing the grab and jumping)
Edit: oh, thank you
Galeon
Smash Ace
Characters can't jump escape from grabs while they're being grab attacked (when the grabber presses A while you're in his grab). A jump escape is only possible if you escape and hold up during frames where you're not being grab attacked.
Levitas
the moon
Note that you must actually hit the last button that qualifies for the break-out while you're not being grab attacked, a buffered jump break is actually a normal break.
PKPower
Smash Cadet
Diddy Kong can be intimidating, but I have a friend that mains him and I've noticed a few things about the match up:
If he starts throwing bannanas, use PK fire. The bannanas will hit the PKF and not affect you, however you can still slip.
If you use his bannanas against him, he will try to dash attack into you while at the same time grabbing the bannana, setting you up for a combo. If he tried this a Dsmash will easily punish him.
Diddy HATES PKT while he is recovering and HATES PKF when he tries to approach. Diddy HATES you for batting his bannanas.
Since Diddy has 2 killing moves on the ground, he will sometimes try to spike you. To prevent this use the rope snake to recover so you won't be open for a spike, or to throw off his timing use PSI magnet to stall yourself.
If Diddy tries anything with his peanut gun, just PKF it. The peanut will disappear.
This is a fun matchup, especially if you gain control over both of the bannanas on the field.
If he starts throwing bannanas, use PK fire. The bannanas will hit the PKF and not affect you, however you can still slip.
If you use his bannanas against him, he will try to dash attack into you while at the same time grabbing the bannana, setting you up for a combo. If he tried this a Dsmash will easily punish him.
Diddy HATES PKT while he is recovering and HATES PKF when he tries to approach. Diddy HATES you for batting his bannanas.
Since Diddy has 2 killing moves on the ground, he will sometimes try to spike you. To prevent this use the rope snake to recover so you won't be open for a spike, or to throw off his timing use PSI magnet to stall yourself.
If Diddy tries anything with his peanut gun, just PKF it. The peanut will disappear.
This is a fun matchup, especially if you gain control over both of the bannanas on the field.
Trozz
Smash Ace
Diddy can actually kick through your PKF and keep going (hitting you unless you waved yourself backwards). D-smash is sooo good vs Diddy.
gantrain05
Smash Master
yeah, basically learn to control the bananas and its pretty straitforward, just don't be like my friends and keep rolling into the same banana i think it was 7 times in a row? lol.
Trozz
Smash Ace
Rolling towards a banana after slipping is a noob strat. Don't do it (unless the banana fell off the edge).
Can you gimp his recovery with thunder?
Can you gimp his recovery with thunder?
Sure! If PKT hits Diddy while he charges his Up B, one rocket will fly off and he won't be able to use it again. But if you hit him during his free fall, you will give him another chance, so be careful.
PKT edgeguarding vs Diddy won't work if he does Rising Up B though..
PKT edgeguarding vs Diddy won't work if he does Rising Up B though..
Dback
Smash Rookie
What about snake hes really annoying with the GrEnAdEs
PKPower
Smash Cadet
What I usually do against Snake it try to use the grenades against him. If he cooks them I try to pressure him with PKF or anything to make it explode in his hands. Just stay on Snake the entire time. Lucas has the potential to be extremely campy or super in your face like MK and Diddy. This is what makes him good, and loads of fun to play.
gantrain05
Smash Master
yeah, but i usually go for the Bair spike cuz im risky like that lol.
Trozz
Smash Ace
N-airs on Snake are risky. If you make the slightest error, Snake will kill you with his broken u-tilt. I just use PKF and PKT a lot, then lose (if the Snake is actually good). I'd rather use DK. xD
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
Here's something I posted for Ness vs. Snake which applies to Lucas also. The strikethrough doesn't apply to Lucas.
The offense one is hang on the edge, press back, use PKT, the direct it into the stage. You can blow up mines like this.
Defense is when you drop down a bit before using PKT to hit the lip of the stage with PKT and regrab it instantly. You wont even see PKT.
And for you Lucas players who don't know what the ledgestalls are
The offense one is hang on the edge, press back, use PKT, the direct it into the stage. You can blow up mines like this.
Defense is when you drop down a bit before using PKT to hit the lip of the stage with PKT and regrab it instantly. You wont even see PKT.
Galeon
Smash Ace
You'll get up tilted for it.
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
This is for when he's backed away using the nikita to force you into doing something. Also, remember, when you regrab the edge, you become incivicible.
Levitas
the moon
Lucas doesn't need to worry about nikita pressure. Just hit back, tether, regrab. 3 rounds of invincibility before you have to think like other characters.
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
But he gets like 2 frames on invicibility when you snake tether. If you actually regrab the edge without it, you get much more invincibility. And Lucas can at least use PKT to disarm the mine.
S.D
Smash Master
Snake: Most Snake players recover high - chase them with zap jumps - they dont see it coming.
G&W: If youre worried about oil panic - use some pk fire mindgames. Short hop pk fire late so it doesnt appear - keep him guessing about whether or not to use that bucket - punish him when he does.
G&W: If youre worried about oil panic - use some pk fire mindgames. Short hop pk fire late so it doesnt appear - keep him guessing about whether or not to use that bucket - punish him when he does.
I just played a pretty good Dedede last night and I got a few ideas on how to handle him better.
Dedede: First of all, PK Fires are great against him but good players will be able to powershield them and follow up with a dash to chaingrab. To avoid this, work on the spacing so that you're just far enough away from him that you can get in a jab combo when he gets close enough to grab. You'll get him everytime and rack up some nice damage. It takes some practice to figure out just what the distance is but it's very worth it.
When Dedede has you in a chaingrab, Lucas cannot escape. Rather than mashing random buttons. Start hitting up or down on your c-stick. This way, if Dedede trips or messes up the chaingrab you will get a free Usmash or Dsmash. There's really no reason to bother with anything else. You cannot escape if you're on a flat surface. If you happen to be on a slant, however, just mash A for the jab combo because slants can mess up Dedede's chaingrab.
Full hop Fairs are great on Dedede because he pretty much has no way of punishing them even if he is able to sheild. Lucas is much better than Dedede in the air especially if you use Dair a lot. On platform levels don't be afraid of throwing out seemingly random Usmashes. Dedede is huge and can get caught in them a lot if they're not paying close enough attention.
Ice Climbers: Lucas is an amazing counter for the ICs which is really good because with their chaingrab they're climbing the ranks in a lot of places. Spam PK Fire like a mother (no pun intended.) Nana will eat them and force Popo to take the damage from the explosion. Usmashes and Dsmashes will often take out Nana even if Popo is able to avoid them making the ICs much less threatening. The ICs like to use their forward B to rack up damage but you can easily jab them out of it. Basically anytime you think it's coming, start jabbing and you'll knock them away. PK Thunder is pretty decent for edgeguarding against them. Don't be afraid to edgeguard just Nana to take her out as early as possible. This can really pay off.
Dedede: First of all, PK Fires are great against him but good players will be able to powershield them and follow up with a dash to chaingrab. To avoid this, work on the spacing so that you're just far enough away from him that you can get in a jab combo when he gets close enough to grab. You'll get him everytime and rack up some nice damage. It takes some practice to figure out just what the distance is but it's very worth it.
When Dedede has you in a chaingrab, Lucas cannot escape. Rather than mashing random buttons. Start hitting up or down on your c-stick. This way, if Dedede trips or messes up the chaingrab you will get a free Usmash or Dsmash. There's really no reason to bother with anything else. You cannot escape if you're on a flat surface. If you happen to be on a slant, however, just mash A for the jab combo because slants can mess up Dedede's chaingrab.
Full hop Fairs are great on Dedede because he pretty much has no way of punishing them even if he is able to sheild. Lucas is much better than Dedede in the air especially if you use Dair a lot. On platform levels don't be afraid of throwing out seemingly random Usmashes. Dedede is huge and can get caught in them a lot if they're not paying close enough attention.
Ice Climbers: Lucas is an amazing counter for the ICs which is really good because with their chaingrab they're climbing the ranks in a lot of places. Spam PK Fire like a mother (no pun intended.) Nana will eat them and force Popo to take the damage from the explosion. Usmashes and Dsmashes will often take out Nana even if Popo is able to avoid them making the ICs much less threatening. The ICs like to use their forward B to rack up damage but you can easily jab them out of it. Basically anytime you think it's coming, start jabbing and you'll knock them away. PK Thunder is pretty decent for edgeguarding against them. Don't be afraid to edgeguard just Nana to take her out as early as possible. This can really pay off.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,860
I was thinking more like 80:20 against Zelda and 65:35 against Sheik... It can't be that bad can it? everything Shiek does up close gets dtilt tripped>fsmashed, dsmashed, grabbed, or ftilted depending on which tilt she does. It's sad, as she relies on her speedy jabs and tilts to rack. Zelda on the other hand has no approaches or anything. Easy edgeguarding, pkfire spamming, din's absorption, the shortness factor, easy early gimp kills, close combat ****, you name it and lucas has it against her. I feel "cheap".
One thing that would really help this discussion(I think at least) is some videos of Lucas players battling high tier characters. Anyone willing/capable of sharing such videos?
Perhaps it's just me, but it seems like it would be more helpful to discuss an actual battle over discussing hypothetical situations.
Perhaps it's just me, but it seems like it would be more helpful to discuss an actual battle over discussing hypothetical situations.
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