Lucas Doubles Discussion Thread!

[c3gill]

Corneria is banned in most tournaments bc of the instant KO Toon Link can do. i'd say any good stage would be a stage that is good for lucas only because G&W is good on like any stage.

G&W still has his bad stages.... But another great pick for a G&W+Lucas would be Norfair. He also does great on Green Greens, which is supposed to be a good Lucas Stage (I dont like it ). G&W Stage thread.

Am I allowed to suggest Rainbow Cruise as a doubles stage for this team? Lucas has pretty good aerial movement(horizontally and vertically)-which are needed on this stage- and G&W rocks on it. I really think this could be one of the best stages for the Mr. G&W/Lucas team.

 

[Chuee]

Corneria is banned in most tournaments bc of the instant KO Toon Link can do. i'd say any good stage would be a stage that is good for lucas only because G&W is good on like any stage.

And what is this instant TL KO?

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

Why is Green Greens considered a good Lucas map?

 

[~Nasty~]

And what is this instant TL KO?

just watch and see for yourself... take note of MK's percents, especially on his last stock. This is actually me playing as TL against Umbra who is ranked top 5 in PA i believe, if not top 5, then top 10.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZagnd3wFWI

 

[Gea]

Lol its not banned because of that, silly kids. Where it is banned it is due to there being a "wall," and the blastzones being so close.

Just don't let Tink camp there and he can't dsmash you. LOL. Especially with meta, you have aerial options.

 

[~Nasty~]

so guys, at my last tournament that i teamed w/ lucario we took 5th out of 24 teams. i healed for about 300% every match it was rediculous. i also finished most of my matches with 3 stocks or 2 stocks, low percent. the chemistry was amazing and everybody was saying we were such a good team. i definitely think lucas/lucario is a great way to go.

 

[heytallman]

OK I am going to update the first post with a little info for every character, provided I know a bit of how things go. I guess keep throwing stuff out there, and the front page will be updated with stuff after the initial overhaul.

edit: put every character in there, put some basic info up for a few. They're in order of the tier list.

Let's talk about Meta Knight?

 

[Hiiiiiii]

Wouldn't Kirby be nice? He'd really help out in the air, and his Up B's after-wave can heal Lucas.

 

[lil cj]

Wouldn't Kirby be nice? He'd really help out in the air, and his Up B's after-wave can heal Lucas.

Kirby would be a pretty good partner for Lucas
they both have high KO power so it would be easy for both of them to get kills

And they could do some creative things too
like Kirby inhales then spits out the opponent into Lucas' fully charged upsmash...
that would be epic

 

[~Nasty~]

so i just realized that my vid is up for the lucas/lucas team haha, that's awesome... there's another one of us (Team SickNasty) against a mario and luigi which is pretty bad*ss. here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEu5RP_jofc&feature=channel

also, i'm gonna put up a vid or two of me and my other partner (Fury). We are the lucas/lucario team. then we can put the vids in the lucario section. btw, fury and i are known as the "Titans of Torment." vids coming soon!

 

[Chuee]

1. Don't PKT2. Even though it is doubles you'll still get punished for it.
2. Try to predict if tether will grab the ledge or not. Your opponent got to it first a few times and you ended up suiciding.
3. Don't kill your partner. Then again it's wi-fi. Everything happens on wi-fi.
4. Low% spikes FTW (especially against characters like mario)

=]

 

[heytallman]

so i just realized that my vid is up for the lucas/lucas team

Yes, I'm going to update the first post with videos that I feel showcase a bit of how the team should be played. One video posted in here I did not put up because it seemed more like 2 singles matches going on at the same time than a doubles match. So if you have doubles videos with ANY partner, stick them up here, and if I think they're decent, I'll put them in on the first post.

Also, you may have noticed several blank spaces in several characters. UNCLE TALLMAN NEEDS YOU!...to give me info. If you happen to know any tactic with a character, any kind of setup which is nice and can be very effective, post it here.

 

[~Nasty~]

1. Don't PKT2. Even though it is doubles you'll still get punished for it.
2. Try to predict if tether will grab the ledge or not. Your opponent got to it first a few times and you ended up suiciding.
3. Don't kill your partner. Then again it's wi-fi. Everything happens on wi-fi.
4. Low% spikes FTW (especially against characters like mario)

=]

thanks for the feedback

as for a lucas/lucario team, one of the main focuses should be on lucario healing lucas and keeping him at a low % as often as possible. whenever one of your opponents, or both, is off the stage, lucas should be trying to heal. you should also let the lucario know that if they are going to heal you then they should shoot multiple small aura (spelling?) spheres rather than one big one. lucario can heal lucas from 100% to 0% in about 4 seconds with small spheres (that's the time it would take a person to recover!) this will all be displayed in the vids that i will put up

 

[~Nasty~]

ok guys i finally got the videos up of me and fury (the lucario main) teaming together.

Best of 3: won; two matches to none.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiIcfizN4-Y <~~~ Match 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGei7zksjZA <~~~ Match 2

Also, here's another random friendly. This one is ****!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Tmn7FxlhUg

 

[actionblackbird]

Here somthing for those whom team with King tripple D.

Waddle doos are a life saver, it recover 50% or more, not sure how fast though.

HOWEVER!!!!

a smart player would get rid of the doo before lucas get to it. OR use it a an advantage by doing a smash on lucas.

secondly, your king D. partern need to trow babies to get the right one, witch is goign to take a while, eithe way, recovering by the use of waddle Doos is harder than other recover techniques...or is there an easy way to do so?

 

[Cardd]

Lucas and pikachu are an amazing team, me and my friend have a beast one.

During pika's Dsmash u can pk freeze right above, to the left or right and have them stuck in the ice on the ground, he can do another dsmash, or thunder, and blow them away, or u can come in with PKT2

If you hit with PKT2 and drag im into pikachu, he can use thunder and it can soemtimes kill from 0-10%.

Pika can heal ur dmg u got as their flying back from that.

Lucas Dthrow+Pika thunder= Early kills

You can trade off nair for lucas into pikas bair and back into nair. It's hard to do but works well.

Thunder heals in teh 20's

His spark heals around 15.

It's easy to throw things in the line of thunder.


If you have a quick attacking pikachu who can do it without stopping, lucas can punish the stunned opponents pretty bad.

The only thing is that they are both lighter characters.

 

[heytallman]

Cardd, do you have any videos of you and the Pika? That dsmash>PK Freeze sounds very very interesting. I would definitely like some videos.

 

[cloudenvy112]

Lucas/Fox

Pros:
Quick lasers can heal Lucas
Setups from Fox can give KOs to Lucas
Fox can scwiftly help Lucas if he's in trouble

Cons:
Fox can be smashed out by Lucas accidentally
Fox's reflector can be an issue of Lucas uses projectiles

Stages to Counterpick
Delfino Plaza
Battlefield

Stages to Ban
Rainbow Cruise

 

[cloudenvy112]

bump please?

 

[Chuee]

Don't revive old threads.

 

[ZMan]

i forgot about this thread, i should wirte some things.


pros- weegee dominates the air, can heal lucas with fireballs (not much, but it is something), SHORYUKEN for some quick kills, great recoveries from both characters
cons- similar problimatic matchups (marth, snake, gaw, mk), weegee's traction gets him pushed away too far back sometimes to help lucas when he's in danger
stages- ban yoshi's or japes, cp rainbow or delfino
some other things- lucas is gonna be tanking and racking up some % while weegee comes in to get some kills with upb or fsmash, never edgeguard when there is a chance to heal


pros- PSYCHIC FATTIES BAYBEE, ness prefers the air and lucas has the ground, great % giving and healing on both sides, kill setups from grabs and ness fire, wtf factor
cons- DOUBLE MARTH WTF, ness's recovery leave's a lot to be desired, and ness's smashes are a little on the slow side
stages, ban yoshis, cp either pirate, norafir, or brinstar
some other things- lucas is the tank here, use pkt to heal, always heal when the chance arises

 

[Tokaio]

Would HTM be willing to do this again? I'd like for us to start this again.

 

[HailCrest]

Anyone considered Zamus? Her down smash is relatively fast and heals lucas 12% per hit. She'd be racking up the damage while Lucas goes in for the kill, her Uair juggling is very good, but Lucas will need to give backup so that the other opponent doesn't knock either one of them out of the juggle.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Ask Galeon about ZSS.

DDD is my Fav.

Oh and suprisngly Wario. O_O

 

[heytallman]

Dang dudes I forgot about this thread. I can totally start updating it again, now that I know more than I used to about doubles.

Also, another stage to consider Ness and Lucas on is Jungle Japes. I played against Phoenix Alpha and his friend in a doubles set once, they went japes and camped for recovery the whole match. That **** was OBSCENE! I wish I had a video of it for this thread.

 

[Galeon]

I still think ZSS is by far the best. Btw, it's about 23% healing per dsmash and its very spammable. The hitbox also stays and can hit people trying to interrupt. There's also random amazingness like:

-ZSS can d-smash to footstool and its a free jab lock for you. Can be done mid match if the ZSS can keep someone away, when the partner just died and is coming back or in a 2 on 1 situation (way better than double pummel).

-If you ever do land a jab lock and are running short on time (their partner just came back on angel platform or is rushing to attack you), you can do your dsmash to end the jab lock. On reaction, ZSS can do her dsmash. What happens is that the second 2 hits of dsmash dont have enough strength to break them out of Zamus's dsmash meaning the guy getting jab locked just took 50%+ from all 3 hits of dsmash plus her dsmash and is probably dead. Most satisfying feeling in the game.

-You can also infinite people in 2 on 1 situations with ZSS dsmashing people and you footstooling them back down (stopping momentum with magnet) to get dsmashed again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaaJTWSqwTQ skip to 6:22

But all of those are just gimmicks. Both of them have strong killing moves and setups. ZSS's dsmash is like a shoutout to Lucas to come get a free point with a smash. If either of them can stop active edgeguarding, the partner will always be able to recover. They also both can rack up damage fast. It's like perfect.

 

[HailCrest]

Yeah, I agree. I saw your match with Nick versus the two metaknights. They were both like 30% and you guys were already 100% but you managed to win anyway. That was awesome.

During doubles do you discuss beforehand whether to share stock or do you just do it as soon as one of you get eliminated (and the other has two stock)?

Can you share stock with someone who only has one stock left?

 

[Tokaio]

Can you share stock with someone who only has one stock left?

Haha no...that'd be cheating lol. You could just keep doing it and you're percent would be renewed each time.

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

How many of you guys have low tier events in your area? I recently competed in a low tier doubles event with Sethlon and we had a good Lucas/Zelda thing going. Just curious.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Hey guys, after Dekar made the doubles thread, I figured the Lucas boards might as well write up a small summary for Lucas since he doesn't have one up on there and we all know Lucas is much better than Doubles. This is our one chance to show them why Lucas is good in doubles. :D

Anyway, here is the basic format Dekar has:

Spoiler

Snake: Tank
Carry- 7
Stock Tank- 9
Punisher- 8
DPS- 7
Good at Offensive Support
Moderate Interference Issues


Snake has quick tilts, great kill moves, an AMAZING forced tech chase, and is one of the fattest *******s to ever exist. In short, he is a TANK.

Carry-wise, he has grenades to get opponents the hell away from him, and quick tilts for separating. The only problem is that once he's put up in the air or offstage... He's pretty screwed.

His Tanking capabilities consist of him being one heavy POS, and his excellent recovery. The only reason he isn't the to contender Tank-wise is because his recovery, though amazing, has its fault- it is slow, and gimpable.

As a Punisher, Snake can kill by fsmashing (for the earliest possible kill, at about 30%, and the only way this is gonna happen is if your teammate sets it up for you). Otherwise he relies upon utilt (about 140% max for a kill, 160% if they're fat and assuming it's fresh) his massive knockback aerials, and C4 (it's so tricky when there are 4 people on screen!)

DPS-wise, Snake is a bit lacking. His attacks pack an awfully strong punch, BUT, they have so much knockback that his combo potential is awfully lacking, not to mention the fact that with a teammate in play, he's a bit more hesitant to use those grenades.

Snake's Interference Issues stem from his explosives, obviously. Two things must be done to curb this- the Snake player must be careful with grenade usage, and his teammate must pay attention to where the C4 is planted at all times.

 

[HelpR]

lol someone went necrodigging.

Well, let's break down lucas' role in doubles.

The obvious problem is that lucas has GR shenanigans, but that's limited in doubles (Except against...well, marth and snake. fun). unfortunately however, most of ness' bad matches are also bad matchups for lucas, so it's actually quite difficult for the pair to function against certain matchups.

as far as carry goes, lucas is fairly well at carrying himself, however, being a momentum based character, if he gets into trouble and starts being comboed, expect to have to save him. As a lucas being comboed usually results in a lost stock. 5-6

lucas is about as light as ness, really, he's not well suited to be a tank, and you really shouldnt expect lucas to outlive ness. granted, lucas is much more difficult to gimp then ness, but he will rarely last past like 150 against certain matchups. i'd say a 6-7 at best.

punishment: Lucas has an incredible punishmet tool, being usmash which kills ludicrously early, however, there's very few situations where this tool comes into play. One of these however, is GR by partner to usmash. When lucas can punish, he can punish hard. His dtilt lock is actually gimped severely in doubles, so an opponent missing a tech is nowhere near as useful as it is in singles for getting an easy kill. Lucas' fsmash kills ******** early, and while nowhere near as good a punishment tool as usmash, can easily kill enemies at very low percentages, just try not to decay it. ever. 7-8

DPS: lucas is godly at DPS whenever he can get the enemy on the ropes. however, with another person interloping this is difficult to pull off. 5-6

Lucas interferes with his teammate at times, but the biggest offenders happen to be PKT, PKT2, PKF, and PK freeze if you're daring. If the two have worked together before, it should be a cinch to maneuver through these moves (all of these can be psimagneted, and PK freeze has mindgame qualities as well as a large hitbox, allowing ness to heal while the opponent is (hopefully) hit. setting up ness for something devastating such as PK flash if the opponent is at a low enough percentage. PK fire is also good for punishing after a PK freeze succesfully hits, as the opponent is unfrozen instantly and stuck in the collumn of fire. So a simple pk freeze can easily result in about 50 damage and healing approximately 30) low-medium interference

Lucas is more suited for fighting directly with the opponent, as ness' pk thunder is significantly quicker, is only one hit (which minimizes the risk of striking lucas with it) and allows for easy pursuit by the lucas. However, if lucas is forced to play support, he can do it, but ness is much more suited for the role.

Overall, lucas and ness make a good team, lucas causes damage rather easily with his combo potential, while ness backs it up with his devastating backthrow which guarantees no opponent lives past the percentage of 130. The main issues come from their matchups being about the same.

Not the greatest team really, but a good one nonetheless.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

WTF are you getting Ness from?

I disagree about d-tilt lock being narfed, it still leads into a u-smash. <3 Tyr Combo

I don't believe Lucas interfere's with his teammate. What do you guys think?

 

[HelpR]

haha oh wow. Idont know where I read ness.

I scanned the post, and looked at it, and saw ness SOMEWHERE. lemmie rewrite that lol

lol someone went necrodigging.

Well, let's break down lucas' role in doubles.

The obvious problem is that lucas has GR shenanigans, but that's limited in doubles (Except against...well, marth and snake. fun). He needs to be covered by his teammate rather well to function well, as if he's left alone with some opponents he can get absolutely *****.

as far as carry goes, lucas is fairly well at carrying himself, however, being a momentum based character, if he gets into trouble and starts being comboed, expect to have to save him. As a lucas being comboed usually results in a lost stock. 5-6

lucas is actually a tiny bit lighter then mario (at least I recall, too lazy to look it up), really, he's not well suited to be a tank, and you really shouldnt expect lucas to outlive most characters. he can be gimped rather easily by some opponents if the lucas messes up.

Dont mess up.

punishment: Lucas has an incredible punishmet tool, being usmash which kills ludicrously early, however, there's very few situations where this tool comes into play. One of these however, is GR by partner to usmash. When lucas can punish, he can punish hard. His dtilt lock is actually gimped severely in doubles, so an opponent missing a tech is nowhere near as useful as it is in singles for getting an easy kill. Lucas' fsmash kills ******** early, and while nowhere near as good a punishment tool as usmash, can easily kill enemies at very low percentages, just try not to decay it. ever. 7-8

DPS: lucas is godly at DPS whenever he can get the enemy on the ropes. however, with another person interloping this is difficult to pull off. 5-6

Lucas interferes with his teammate at times, but the biggest offenders happen to be PKT, PKT2, PKF, and PK freeze if you're daring. If the two have worked together before, it should be a cinch to maneuver through these moves
medium interference, medium-low if the teammate is another lucas, a game and watch, or a ness. lol bucket and psimagnet.

Lucas is more suited for fighting directly with the opponent, however, he's no slouch when he has to hang back and attack from a distance. the interference comes into play mostly here, and it's truly dependent on how intelligently the lucas uses his projectiles. He has great support, but can be difficult to maneuver around

Overall, lucas is a good potential teammate, certain qualities about him that pose a problem in singles is eliminated in doubles, and depending on the partner, the team can be quite great.

gonna leave the messed up post for the luls. also because I dont want rPSI to appear insane.

Honest to god I have no idea where I got ness from.

 

[ZMan]

I don't believe Lucas interfere's with his teammate. What do you guys think?

i disagree. nair, fire, and smashes could **** up your partner badly if you aren't careful.

lucas can't carry cause of his lack of favorable matchups in a competitve envoirment. 2 or 3

he can tank well with good di, great recovery, and some good babysitting. 9

dps is all right. run around a lot and flick the cstick alot you get some % on the villans. i give this a 7 or 8

punishment is derp. the **** up once and they're eating a smash which is never a good thing. 9

best teammates are ness, zss, wario, pit, and d3

 

[heytallman]

pk fire is not a good move for doubles.

However, PK Thunder 1 is great. It can apply pressure to opponents, forcing them to shield and then hopefully get punished by your partner or take the hit. I need to PK thunder more and learn to not pk fire in doubles.

Smashes are pretty good in doubles, you'll be able to land a lot of stuff.

Lucas can definitely tank. One tournament I had to play UTD Zac and Razer in teams (f'ing GROSS!) and I lived to 200% or so one stock. Granted, it was on Jungle Japes, but still. Gnes has told me that it is very difficult to hit me in doubles, as I tend to weave in and out nairing and fairing around. Being hard to hit and being able to DI well makes Lucas able to tank fairly well. Especially if you are with a partner who can heal you.

ZMan you forgot Game & Watch for one of the best teammates.

 

[HailCrest]

I was having a doubles mini-tournament at my house with 3 other people who have Brawl such that everyone will play against everyone and ally with everyone as well, and I find Lucario and Pit to be pretty good. Lucario's a good damage racker, a good punisher and as long as he's alive I can have a free 30% heal whenever I wish. Pit's arrows don't heal much but it's not negligible, his side-B and jab combo can lead into Lucas' kill moves if the opponent fails to SDI or DI (or if I catch the combo early), and his arrows have negligible knockback with some stun, long enough to pull off an fsmash at least.

I have another friend who plays Diddy, but I didn't play alongside him much (because I played with the other two only during friendlies) and the only time we played, both of us kept failing to recover (temporary-loss-of-motor-control johns) and we got trashed... that's not going to happen next time T_T; but he can carry pretty well on his own in 2v1 and 1v1 and banana trip = fsmash.

 

[HelpR]

oh, for anyone interested, when you're teaming with another lucas, ness, or game and watch, if you ledgewhip the pk thunder while you're on the edge, you remove almost all ending lag, and can produce 10% damage (or 15% or 20% healing) for your teammate (note, as far as game and watch is concerned, ZSS' dsmash is 11% damage, if you remove the ending lag from pk thunder (which the ledge regrab does) you can pump out 3 pk thunder charges about as quick as ZSS, and it does a minute bit less damage, but is still deadly above 30.

Granted, it's situational as all hell, but it's still food for thought I suppose.

 

[Jon Farron]

i have to say another ness/lucas would be best because they can heal each other like crazy!

 

[HailCrest]

How much health does Ness' fire pillar thing heal in total? (I can see some gimmicks coming up on Brinstar/Luigi's Mansion)

 

[HelpR]

depends on who it's healing. We'd assume that it'd be healing lucas of course, but there could be another ness I suppose. I dunno the exact damage it does though, as I cant find he exact damage it does after impact. It should heal about 20-30 damage potentially though