Lucas: Buffs and Nerfs

[Basty]

Hi there! If you don't know me, I'm Basty. I'm very excited for Lucas, he has alot of interesting moves in past games. This thread is a place to chat about Lucas and how he's changed since Brawl. We only have a trailer to analyze, but we can make alot of notes from this trailer.

Buffs:
D-Tilt seems lagless, goes straight into jab in the trailer
N-Air seems stronger
Longer Rope Snake
Up-Smash seems to have a bigger hitbox
D-Throw seems more viable (proven by @ Jigglystep ) and can combo at low percents (presumably)

Nerf
Can't kill with D-Throw (not 100% sure on this, but it looks like it might not)
Only 5 hits with Lucas' N-air

Trailer to analyze from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwIhEXVRCog
Enjoy!

 

[UberMadman]

Rope Snake is definitely way longer too, and is going to benefit a lot from Smash 4 tether mechanics. This is probably going to give him a very viable alternative to PK Thunder for recovery purposes.

 

[Macchiato]

Usmash seems to have a bigger hitbox

 

[Smog Frog]

wasnt usmash always huge?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

wasnt usmash always huge?

It could tap players on the upper Battlefield platform for like 6%. Yes, it was huge, as in Shulk utilt huge.

It looked a bit smaller vertically in the trailer but the angle was sort of zoomed in and then they had the launch trails going on so IDK.

 

[yoshi8984]

Yeah U-Smash was always huge lol. And hell, it was the 2nd strongest U-Smash in Brawl (after Ivysaur's).

Hm, I'm pretty curious as to how Lucas' Magnet would work. In Brawl, Ness had the laggier and lesser healing Magnet, and it produced a windbox. Lucas' was faster and healed more (I can't remember the multipliers in Brawl lol) and had a solid hitbox that could KO and gave off a semi-spike angle.

Ness' Lucas Magnet is laggier, and doesn't heal a lot (1.2x compared to 1.6x), and the hitbox on it does pitiful knockback. I think Lucas' Magnet may get a nerf cause if it heals more than 1.6x the damage then it may get a bit ridiculous (although that would be amazing haha).

 

[FullMoon]

Did Lucas's D-Throw burrow opponents in Brawl? I don't remember it doing that there but it does now and that seems like a significant buff.

 

[UberMadman]

Did Lucas's D-Throw burrow opponents in Brawl? I don't remember it doing that there but it does now and that seems like a significant buff.

No it did not. It does seem like it will allow for a lot more follow-ups now. It technically means he lost a kill move though, but he has backthrow for that.

 

[FullMoon]

No it did not. It does seem like it will allow for a lot more follow-ups now. It technically means he lost a kill move though, but he has backthrow for that.

Well the throw might not kill but the F-Smash that likely can follow from it at kill %s certainly can so it's not like it matters much.

 

[Jigglypwnz14]

#LucasNewMetaknight

Lol not really, though I may main him just because of that up smash.

 

[Basty]

Well the throw might not kill but the F-Smash that likely can follow from it at kill %s certainly can so it's not like it matters much.

What was the kill% for f-smash in brawl?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

What was the kill% for f-smash in brawl?

Enough that my Ike friend complained how it was easier for him to die to a stick than for him to kill Lucas with Ragnell.

Lucas also had a dtilt lock into fsmash but locks like that have been removed in 4 I think.

 

[LiamMail]

Buff: His model looks higher definition

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Saying it now, Lucas will be a LOT better than Ness, so he's already Top 5, calling it now.

I may just have to break my resolve to never play top-tiers competitively, Lucas is just... AHHHHH LUCAS!!

 

[Jiggly]

Saying it now, Lucas will be a LOT better than Ness, so he's already Top 5, calling it now.

I may just have to break my resolve to never play top-tiers competitively, Lucas is just... AHHHHH LUCAS!!

I think that's wrong. His up b doesn't have the same amount of kill power, and it doesn't recover as far. He doesn't have a killer back throw like ness, and doesn't have the aerial strings ness has. His PK Fire doesn't set up kills either. Increased grab, tether, killer up smash, and great Dtilt is the only think Lucas really seems to have over smash. And even then, a tether isn't all too much of a buff, and an increased grab range isn't as great if it doesn't kill reliably.
I think Lucas will be top of mid tier, but at the same time we don't know all too much. He looks fun tho

 

[FlynnCL]

I believe I've found a difference which may imply a potential nerf.

They've subtly changed his neutral-air; it now consists of 5 maximum hits instead of 8 like in Brawl. The hitlag has been increased too. It seems like a very easy change for the developers as part of neutral-air (the multi-hit) was coded to loop 7 times. They can just set the loop to 4, adjust the final hit timings and it'd still work perfectly.

Why was this done? Well, here's an idea that seems plausible, and I want you to check this data from Lucas in Brawl;

AttackAirN (Neutral-air):
Total / Interruptibility: 39
Hits: on frame 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20, 23, 26 (8 hits) (max damage: 17%)
Auto Cancel: on frame 27
Landing lag: 18

That auto-cancel timing? It means that neutral-air auto-cancelled just one frame after the final hitbox was out. That is ridiculously good pressure if applied correctly with short hops. You should never have to worry about getting shield-grabbed with a move like that.

Considering what they've done to other fighters, no way is a short-hop move going into Smash 4 like that. What I believe they've done is toned down the duration of the move so it can be a short-hop aerial that isn't too powerful or active relative to the rest of the roster.

However, it probably means extra cool-down in a short-hop due to the attack ending faster, it's probably far less safe against shields and the damage dealt might be significantly reduced due to less hits.

 

[Jigglymaster]

So, what do you guys think about rage being applied to Lucas now? Think that U-smash of his is going to be even crazier at higher percents when rage is activated? I have a feeling it might be causing a bit of salt in the future.

 

[ForteX]

After watching the reveal trailer again, I guess this is the place to mention it: Charizard should have armor on the Rock Smash frames where Lucas' PK Fire hits him, but the fire seems to break the super armor. So either Lucas' PK Fire is even better than it was in Brawl (I didn't think that was possible), or Charizard is losing the armor on Rock Smash.

I haven't paid attention to Charizard boards to see if anyone brought that up there.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

So, what do you guys think about rage being applied to Lucas now? Think that U-smash of his is going to be even crazier at higher percents when rage is activated? I have a feeling it might be causing a bit of salt in the future.

Somebody needs to go get the data from his old U-Smash so we could try to find out how broken it'll be with rage.

 

[Mikkelmann]

Did Lucas's D-Throw burrow opponents in Brawl? I don't remember it doing that there but it does now and that seems like a significant buff.

No it did not.

 

[A-money2121]

wasnt usmash always huge?

If I'm not mistaken, I think it was the strongest U-smash back in Brawl.

It had a lot of start-up lag, but the heavy damage was totally worth it.

NOW WHERE'S WOLF!?!?!

 

[misterOWAIN33]

It looks like Bair is still a meteor. Hopefully it will be easier to sweetspot than in Brawl?

 

[Link24a]

I'm pretty sure his down throw buries the opponent only as part of the animation, and that the knockback then happens after that. Am I correct or no?

 

[TheEnderFriend]

The arc on PK Freeze looked a lot lower and faster too.

 

[Jigglystep]

Everyone is saying Lucas's down-throw has a burying effect now, but I think it may just be a visual effect unfortunately. (or fortunately, depending on how viable the throw is)

Here's a GIF for quick reference.

First of all, notice how Megaman is planted into the ground in front of Lucas rather than beside him on the same plane like other burying moves. It wouldn't make sense to follow up with an attack if your target isn't on the same plane. Most notably though, is that Megaman goes into hitstun after popping out, as opposed to being in the jumping animation and able to attack immediately like what would normally be the case after being buried.

So basically, down-throw was straight up buffed since you can combo off of it now at presumably low percents. I wonder if it still kills.

 

[Basty]

Did some research on a fully charged up-smash kill % in brawl, because I couldn't find any on smashboards (or anywhere else), I decided to play brawl and figure it out myself.
Against Mario, Lucas kills with a fully charged up smash at 44 percent. If we put into perspective that different weight classes exist, we're looking about the 30% (lightweight) to 60% (heavyweight) kill % (correct me if i'm wrong).
If we factor in rage, a fully charged up smash could kill from 10%-30% (aka, really early)
Holy crap

 

[Luco]

Enough that my Ike friend complained how it was easier for him to die to a stick than for him to kill Lucas with Ragnell.

Lucas also had a dtilt lock into fsmash but locks like that have been removed in 4 I think.

If Dair is still lagless as heck and puts the opponent into a slammed position on the ground, then all Lucas needs is 2 Dtilts and a Fsmash and the opponent is probably still dead.

Dthrow at low percents in Brawl had Utilt chains, but this does look really nice too. I'm wondering whether they'll alter any of Lucas' other throws and if so, in what way (If they somehow give Lucas a Ness-strength kill throw I will be jumping from the rooftops! ).

Rage could be a big deal with Lucas. Because of the ledge mechanics, I think Dsmash at the edge may be a big killing move to those that hang around the ledge. Just hoping.

 

[Link24a]

Everyone is saying Lucas's down-throw has a burying effect now, but I think it may just be a visual effect unfortunately. (or fortunately, depending on how viable the throw is)

Here's a GIF for quick reference.

First of all, notice how Megaman is planted into the ground in front of Lucas rather than beside him on the same plane like other burying moves. It wouldn't make sense to follow up with an attack if your target isn't on the same plane. Most notably though, is that Megaman goes into hitstun after popping out, as opposed to being in the jumping animation and able to attack immediately like what would normally be the case after being buried.

So basically, down-throw was straight up buffed since you can combo off of it now at presumably low percents. I wonder if it still kills.

Yeah. That was knockback smoke. Definitely hitstun.

 

[Uffe]

Lucas' nair may seem pathetic with it only doing 5% damage, from what you've stated. But keep in mind that Ness' fair only does 7% damage and look how well that works. We'll either get a character that is just as good as Ness, not as good as Ness, or just too OP that people going to cry, "BAN!"

 

[strawhatninja]

I'm sure it won't happen but would be nice if one of his custom moves was a charge like in project m, which made is usmash even deadlier.

 

[extremechiton]

As for Lucas d throw, if mm is at low percent, the hit from the d throw will knock him out of the bury. I'm sure at higher percentage, mm would have been buried longer and still taken damage from the hit.

As you probably know, king ddd up b buries people, but landing hits them out of it. And to keep them buried, you had to cancel the jump (probably not relevant)

 

[Irsic]

No it did not. It does seem like it will allow for a lot more follow-ups now. It technically means he lost a kill move though, but he has backthrow for that.

Early d-throws used to allow immediate utilt follow ups. It was pretty much Lucas' best throw then, but if the bury effect allows for more follow up effects, Lucas is in for a good time. It would be nice it they changed his kill throw to something different though so dthrow can be used for dealing damage.

 

[ForteX]

It looks like Bair is still a meteor. Hopefully it will be easier to sweetspot than in Brawl?

It was easy to sweetspot in Brawl, and very spammable too. Any easier and it'll be the best meteor in the game. Do you want Lucas to be broken? ... Don't answer that.

So as for all of the speculation about Lucas' dthrow - notice how the character getting thrown enters a completely different animation. The same thing happened in Brawl. As far as I remember, that animation is one created specifically for Lucas' dthrow, and in Brawl, the character was just slammed into the ground in a sort of silly looking way. The "buried" dirt has probably been added to make that not look as awkward. Aside from that, it would be pretty silly to throw someone just for them to be buried.

 

[Link24a]

So as for all of the speculation about Lucas' dthrow - notice how the character getting thrown enters a completely different animation. The same thing happened in Brawl. As far as I remember, that animation is one created specifically for Lucas' dthrow, and in Brawl, the character was just slammed into the ground in a sort of silly looking way. The "buried" dirt has probably been added to make that not look as awkward. Aside from that, it would be pretty silly to throw someone just for them to be buried.

Yeah we confirmed that because there was the knockback smoke and hitstun when he flew up

 

[Secrethide1]

Am I the only one who notice that Forward PSI Magnet deals damage now?

 

[Lukingordex]

^

Lucas' psi magnet creates a hitbox imediately when you stop the move, that's what you're probably talking about, and it exists since brawl.

 

[misterOWAIN33]

It was easy to sweetspot in Brawl, and very spammable too. Any easier and it'll be the best meteor in the game. Do you want Lucas to be broken? ... Don't answer that.

No I don't want Lucas to be broken. I want Diddy mains' egos broken.

​

...Yeah, I tested it, it is easier than I remembered to sweetspot.

As for the DThrow, I agree with ForteX; it looks a lot less awkward with the burying animation.

 

[ForteX]

No I don't want Lucas to be broken. I want Diddy mains' egos broken.

​

Then get good.

And play MegaMan

 

[Funen1]

Taking another look at the trailer, I'm not so sure D-tilt into jabs is really a true combo. Little Mac appears to get himself back into a neutral stance before the jabs hit him, which means he could put up a shield or counter or what have you in between hits. Ness has this problem with his D-tilt too, but fwiw Lucas' D-tilt looks like it deals a little more hitstun all the same lol. We'll have to see if hitstun increases at higher percents, but I'm not too hopeful.

 

[XCounter]

I know we've yet to see it, but I really hope his dash attack is improved. It's just so slow.

I'm hoping dthrow will be able to set up some more aerial combos this time around. I'd also love to see Lucas get a little more range on his uair, a bit more knockback on his fair, a hitbox on zair (pretty sure it doesn't have one) and a reliable kill throw. Would be nice if he could also take advantage of Ness's double PK Thunder recovery option.