Lucario Matchup Thread: Marth!

[Timbers]

Hopefully not imposing, but I'll take my chances. We are currently discussing Lucario vs. Marth over at the Lucario boards and it's Marth's' chance to shine. =P! If you feel you can contribute to this matchup, then please do!


-What specific troubles do you have with Lucario as a Marth player? Does Lucario shut down any of your game?


-What advantages do you feel Lucario has against you?


-What disadvantages do you feel Lucario has against you?


-Is there any method or strategic goal you would use to win this match?


I would greatly appreciate it if players of the board would give their input on the matches, thanks!

--

And I do request that if you are to say anything about the matchup, that you have had at least an adequate amount of experience in the match. I know there's a good deal of educated Marth players on this board, but for every knowledgeable Marth player on these boards, seems to be one that places Marth above everyone else and speaks only optomistic theory. That wasn't taking a shot at you guys, by the way. The Lucario boards are the same way, but I don't play as Marth enough to correct any inaccurate information coming from your guy's side of the match. Just a little footnote, thanks.

 

[__V]

Lucario is a bit annoying to play against with Marth, because he can outreach some of Marth's air attacks. Overall, Marth has an advantage, but the Lucario can get really, really, annoying with the projectile spam.

 

[Marth & Ike]

I think Emblem Lord covered this match-up very well in the thread discussing all character match-ups...

IIRC he called it highly debateable in the end, still preferring Marth (as all us Marth mainers do ), but allowing for a 5/5.

I could be wrong though, I'll have to go read up on it again in that thread to make sure.

 

[Timbers]

He marks the matchup as 6/4 in Marth's favor, which is fair.

 

[Shök]

Marth>Lucario.

He can escape the chaingrb with his up-b
His easily gimpable recovery hurts lucario a lot because of Marth's edgehogging skillz.

It's still pretty close, tho.

I play lucario sometimes.
Oh and my best friend mains Lucario and we play all the time.

Your questionnaire:

-What specific troubles do you have with Lucario as a Marth player? Does Lucario shut down any of your game?

The troubles are the chaingrabs, knocking him far and his projectile spamming game.
The solutions are:
Up-b with proper timing,
Keep fighting and save the Tipper F-Smash till 90%
Counter, his game is not as gay as Fox's

-What advantages do you feel Lucario has against you?

Projectiles, Chaingrabs, heavier, harder to kill, better throws.

-What disadvantages do you feel Lucario has against you?

Recovery, ground game, weak at low%, worse edgeguarding, easier to edgeguard, slower.

-Is there any method or strategic goal you would use to win this match?

Juggle him a lot, save the tipper F-smash for when you NEED it but it can be renewed by the Dancing blade, so use that a fair bit, our SHDF is slightly better than yours, read his airdodges and spike, use advanced edgeguarding off the stage with Nairs and Fairs, then reverse up-B to grab the edge and screw lucario.

Marth Vs. Lucario

Ground game:
Marth>Lucario
Lucario's weakest aspect

Air Game:
Marth=Lucario
SHDF to h*ll!!

Special Moves:
Marth=Lucario
He's improve alot since meele.

Projectile Game:
Lucario>>Marth
This is not fair...

Recovery:
Marth>>Lucario
Again not fair...

Weight and survivability:
Lucario>Marth

Edgeguarding:
Marth>Everybody (except MK, they are= )

Overall:
Marth>Lucario
but 60/40

 

[Timbers]

Chaingrab is not a viable option in Luc's game. It's easily broken out of no matter which char you use.

Just sayin'

Thanks for input.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I'm going to play against some Lucarios later today, so I'll edit this post after I do to put in my opinion.

 

[Timbers]

/shameless bump

I'm going to play against some Lucarios later today, so I'll edit this post after I do to put in my opinion.

Very cool. More input the better. =)

 

[OmegaXF]

One major advantage Luc has on Marth is his Fsmash. Especially at higher %. He can pretty much change his game dramatically and has an advantage in the higher %, forcing Marth to play a very crucial defensive game.

 

[IDK]

he's a SPY!!! tell him nothing! jk jk...

 

[Black_Heretic]

Recovery:
Marth>>Lucario
Again not fair...

I don't know if thats true, I use both, Lucario as a main and Marth as a second, and Lucario's recovery doesn't seem to great at first, then you try him and realize you can sweetspot the ledge from 10 yards away, plus he has the only viable use of a wall cling as it can be done after the upB allowing you another jump

I've seen Lucario player's have their opponents attempt an edgehog only to have Lucario stick to the underside of FD, jump back and bair them for a stage spike (I can't though :[)

He seems to just have more options than Marth

 

[Shök]

Yeah, maybe.

I meant that it could be easily edgehogged because it was predictable.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yay, lets have people who main both rush in and be annoying!

Well, I'll just say that I main both, and IMO, Lucario's recovery, while somewhat situational, is actually pretty good on half of tourney viable stages. I would say Marth>Lucario, just for a generic score (u can't always rely on walls, if there aren't any), but certainly not Marth>>Lucario. Second, I think I've said this in the Lucario boards, but Lucarios are a decent fight, but still have an overall slight disadvantage. While Lucario's do have a projectile, Marth's have many ways of dealing with it. I would also say that while it is safe to say Lucario's airgame = Marth's airgame, I think it sways ever so slightly in Marth's favor (just because of that range advantage, otherwise, it's a good tie, although I will say I like Lucario's airgame quite a bit). Ground game, both have their strengths, and Marth's have to watch out for fast tilts that rival their own in speed. In the specials, Marth has a strong contending tool, Side B, which punishes defenders, sets up a wall (don't say "roll behind" is the solution, because unless u follow up with it quick, Marth will come around with a punish behind), and restores decay. Lucario's Side B does punish defenders, and combos well, and acts as a somewhat decent kill, but shies just a bit from utility. Lucario's grab game definitely is better than Marth, and his smashes IMO definitely hurt Marth. Overall, Marth is just a little bit more of an advantage, but Lucario is a hard fight.

 

[Timbers]

Yeah, maybe.

I meant that it could be easily edgehogged because it was predictable.

Marth's recovery is predictable. Lucario's is versatile in it's direction and where he's able to recover from. Marth's dolphin slash is the same direction, every time. <.<

Well, I'll just say that I main both, and IMO, Lucario's recovery, while somewhat situational, is actually pretty good on half of tourney viable stages. I would say Marth>Lucario, just for a generic score (u can't always rely on walls, if there aren't any), but certainly not Marth>>Lucario. .

I'd put Lucario's recovery=Marth's recovery, in a general light. I think Marth does a better job gimping Lucario than Lucario does to Marth, but that's just because Marth's gimp game is impressive.

 

[Kasai]

Recovery:
Marth>>Lucario

This is the only thing I have a problem with. Lucario's recovery is, in the very least, even to Marth's. At first, it may seem somewhat on the lower side of the scale but after playing with it longer and learning to curve/cling, it actually becomes very good or at least not worse than Marth's. This picture helps explain it.


The acutal range of area where lucario is vulnerable to an edgehog is actually quite small. Any space further in from the edge of the circle means that he could curve it and land on the edge. Any space outside the circle would result in him being too far away regardless of edge hogging. Any place above the red line would result in him simply going forward and landing on the stage.

The only main downside to Lucario's recovery is the startup time. Now, this can be a problem against characters with easily aimed projectiles (pit x.x) but against a character like marth, especially when low under the stage where the lip could possibly gimp his recovery, there is little he can do to interrupt it if he is on stage when upB starts.

 

[Punishment Divine]

This is the only thing I have a problem with. Lucario's recovery is, in the very least, even to Marth's. At first, it may seem somewhat on the lower side of the scale but after playing with it longer and learning to curve/cling, it actually becomes very good or at least not worse than Marth's. This picture helps explain it.


The acutal range of area where lucario is vulnerable to an edgehog is actually quite small. Any space further in from the edge of the circle means that he could curve it and land on the edge. Any space outside the circle would result in him being too far away regardless of edge hogging. Any place above the red line would result in him simply going forward and landing on the stage.

The only main downside to Lucario's recovery is the startup time. Now, this can be a problem against characters with easily aimed projectiles (pit x.x) but against a character like marth, especially when low under the stage where the lip could possibly gimp his recovery, there is little he can do to interrupt it if he is on stage when upB starts.

No. Just...no. Even if it's predictable if you try to disrupt it you get beat in the face/ Marth's Up B has almost no startup frames, invincibility frames, HITS, and can stage spike. Lucario is extremely easy to edgeguard when you're Marth. And then you can hog the edge quite easy as well, I don't really mind which direction you're heading. The fact that it doesn't hit really makes it suck, despite the wall cling.

If you're recovering from far from the stage, which a good Marth player will force any easily gimped character to do, you get ledge hogged. If you recover high, you land on the stage, most likely, and are vulnerable to being set up. the only thing that' decent is that on a stage like FD, when recovering low, you can wall cling which any smart player would not grab the ledge in this certain instance lest he get B aired. Even then you just make it back to the stage where Marth has a pretty clear cut advantage over you, and you're close enough to the edge to set up for more gimping.

So no, Lucario's recovery =/= Marth's

As for the topic in general, ahem. That Fsmash is so annoying. My friend who I play against often mains Luke and I STILL haven't gotten used to that things deceptive as hell range. His neutral A racks up some nice damage. Constant Aura Spheres make it hard to concentrate sometimes, but only in like heated situations. Rolling behind a Dancing Blade combo is frustrating. I really like Luke's Utilt in general, so eh. Grabs hurt. Never edgeguard. Never try to fire a big *** aura sphere, please, I can short hop over it.

Thats about it

 

[Kitamerby]

No. Just...no. Even if it's predictable if you try to disrupt it you get beat in the face/ Marth's Up B has almost no startup frames, invincibility frames, HITS, and can stage spike. Lucario is extremely easy to edgeguard when you're Marth. And then you can hog the edge quite easy as well, I don't really mind which direction you're heading. The fact that it doesn't hit really makes it suck, despite the wall cling.

Bair/Dair > Dolphin Slash.
Our Dair goes clean through your Dolphin Slash for a stagespike, and if it doesn't stagespike, it knocks you clean enough away for us to finish the gimp.
Our Bair is also instant death for you via stagespike if you try to go for the edge, and we don't even have to worry about timing because Bair is just so freaking big and stays out so long. I highly doubt your Tuna Slice stays completely invincible for 24 frames.

Also, Lucario is only easy to edgeguard if the Lucario user thinks he's Fox and goes straight for the stage. Otherwise, we can literally curve it right around you. :\

If you're recovering from far from the stage, which a good Marth player will force any easily gimped character to do, you get ledge hogged. If you recover high, you land on the stage, most likely, and are vulnerable to being set up. the only thing that' decent is that on a stage like FD, when recovering low, you can wall cling which any smart player would not grab the ledge in this certain instance lest he get B aired. Even then you just make it back to the stage where Marth has a pretty clear cut advantage over you, and you're close enough to the edge to set up for more gimping.

Sakurai (laughs)

So no, Lucario's recovery =/= Marth's

Well, that's DEFINITELY the case, but not in the way you believe it to be. =\

You can live in your fantasy world in which Marth's recovery is better than Lucario if you'd like, but don't complain once you find someone who realizes that they're not playing Ivysaur and decides to TRY to recover rather than just dying on purpose every time you edgehog.



Not saying that Lucario has the advantage in this matchup, but Marth users really need to get off their high horse when it comes to looking at recoveries that are just a little bit different.

 

[Punishment Divine]

Bair/Dair > Dolphin Slash.
Our Dair goes clean through your Dolphin Slash for a stagespike, and if it doesn't stagespike, it knocks you clean enough away for us to finish the gimp.
Our Bair is also instant death for you via stagespike if you try to go for the edge, and we don't even have to worry about timing because Bair is just so freaking big and stays out so long. I highly doubt your Tuna Slice stays completely invincible for 24 frames.

Also, Lucario is only easy to edgeguard if the Lucario user thinks he's Fox and goes straight for the stage. Otherwise, we can literally curve it right around you. :\


Sakurai (laughs)


Well, that's DEFINITELY the case, but not in the way you believe it to be. =\

You can live in your fantasy world in which Marth's recovery is better than Lucario if you'd like, but don't complain once you find someone who realizes that they're not playing Ivysaur and decides to TRY to recover rather than just dying on purpose every time you edgehog.



Not saying that Lucario has the advantage in this matchup, but Marth users really need to get off their high horse when it comes to looking at recoveries that are just a little bit different.

Five frames of invincibilty and a powerful sweetspot gives enough time to hit anyone grabbing the ledge or attempting to spike. Ive seen silly Lukes and other characters go for some sort of spike only to eat an up B.

Im not on a high horse when I say it's better. Not even in this matchup alone, which it's better anyways, but in probably every matchup. Marth can fair to recover horizontally and at the same time attack, can stall with F-B, and then hit right through anything you have with an Up B. Lucario has an up b that is laggy, doesn't hit, and is quite easily guarded against and you think it's good just because you "can totally twist and maneuver it!"? Please.

It's a predictable recovery whether you like it or not, cause there's 2 or 3 places you can aim for when you're off the stage depending on where you are: the stage, the ledge, and the lip under the stage, if there even is one. Most Lucario players are easy enough to gauge which they're gonna choose. Not saying it's a bad thing it's obvious, because sometimes you're forced to do said action, but it's just something that is, well, obv. It's nice you can move it and all, but that sure as **** doesn't beat invincibility frames, the ability to hit through enemies, and also the ability to use it for more than recovery.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Both of their recoveries are average so who cares. >_>

 

[Kasai]

Both of their recoveries are average so who cares. >_>

-True story.....

but to be fair, saying that Marth's recovery is >> Lucario's just isn't factually correct. If anything, I would say that they are even.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Chaingrab is not a viable option in Luc's game. It's easily broken out of no matter which char you use.

Just sayin'

Thanks for input.

Not true. Caingrab is only easily broken out of at 24% and under, not counting Lucario's own %. It's still very useful against Snake, Dedede, Sheik and Wolf, but certainly not Marth.

 

[Timbers]

No. Just...no. Even if it's predictable if you try to disrupt it you get beat in the face/ Marth's Up B has almost no startup frames, invincibility frames, HITS, and can stage spike. Lucario is extremely easy to edgeguard when you're Marth. And then you can hog the edge quite easy as well, I don't really mind which direction you're heading. The fact that it doesn't hit really makes it suck, despite the wall cling.

If you're recovering from far from the stage, which a good Marth player will force any easily gimped character to do, you get ledge hogged. If you recover high, you land on the stage, most likely, and are vulnerable to being set up. the only thing that' decent is that on a stage like FD, when recovering low, you can wall cling which any smart player would not grab the ledge in this certain instance lest he get B aired. Even then you just make it back to the stage where Marth has a pretty clear cut advantage over you, and you're close enough to the edge to set up for more gimping.

So no, Lucario's recovery =/= Marth's

As for the topic in general, ahem. That Fsmash is so annoying. My friend who I play against often mains Luke and I STILL haven't gotten used to that things deceptive as hell range. His neutral A racks up some nice damage. Constant Aura Spheres make it hard to concentrate sometimes, but only in like heated situations. Rolling behind a Dancing Blade combo is frustrating. I really like Luke's Utilt in general, so eh. Grabs hurt. Never edgeguard. Never try to fire a big *** aura sphere, please, I can short hop over it.

Thats about it

You just told me who has the better gimp game, not who has the better recovery.

@Nessbounder: Dramatization. When the chaingrab is only guaranteed/worth it against 3 characters, it's not enough to bring it up unless we're specifically talking about said characters.

 

[Kitamerby]

Five frames of invincibilty and a powerful sweetspot gives enough time to hit anyone grabbing the ledge or attempting to spike. Ive seen silly Lukes and other characters go for some sort of spike only to eat an up B.

5 frames before he goes anywhere. What? You think we're gonna stage spike you if you're already in sweetspot range? Because any farther out and you won't be able to rely on invincibility!

Im not on a high horse when I say it's better. Not even in this matchup alone, which it's better anyways, but in probably every matchup. Marth can fair to recover horizontally and at the same time attack, can stall with F-B, and then hit right through anything you have with an Up B. Lucario has an up b that is laggy, doesn't hit, and is quite easily guarded against and you think it's good just because you "can totally twist and maneuver it!"? Please.

o,O

Anyone can Fair to recover and attack. Heck, ours works just as well. We have a projectile if we want, as well. Whoop-dee-doo! You can stall ONCE every 5 minutes with Dancing Blade. We can stall with Dair as many times as we like. :D The reason that our recovery move is so great is because it goes REALLY far, has great ledgesnap (enough to beat out pretty much any on-stage edgeguard move. Ike's Eruption can't even beat out our amazing ledgesnap.) and because we can curve it. With Marth, if there's an obstruction (IE Edgeguarder), you can't do crap other than to pray that you can go through him. That'll get you killed against even an amateur Mario or Pit, or anyone who can knock you out of your Tuna Slice. Lucario? Nah. We can go completely around the obstacle and sweetspot/land on the stage.

It's a predictable recovery whether you like it or not, cause there's 2 or 3 places you can aim for when you're off the stage depending on where you are: the stage, the ledge, and the lip under the stage, if there even is one. Most Lucario players are easy enough to gauge which they're gonna choose. Not saying it's a bad thing it's obvious, because sometimes you're forced to do said action, but it's just something that is, well, obv. It's nice you can move it and all, but that sure as **** doesn't beat invincibility frames, the ability to hit through enemies, and also the ability to use it for more than recovery.

We don't go in a straight line. I'm not sure how many times I have to explain it, but I'll keep trying. We can curve our ExtremeSpeed in any direction we choose. Not only that, but we can curve it to bend around obstacles (IE edgeguarders, lips of stages, etc.) and better snap to walls. It's extremely easy to choose the best option, and I'm sure you'd know that, as well. If you're standing on the edge, I should go for the ledge or the wall. If you're attempting an edgehog, go for the stage or the wall. If you're leaping out after me, go for the ledge or the stage. However, that does not mean that you can stop us. Compare us to Marth, who has literally two options: The ledge, and death. Chances are, you're going for the ledge, and chances are, you're too far away for your invincibility, which only lasts until you really start moving. Marth's probably more vulnerable to edgehogging than Lucario is even on the non-wall stages. >.>

Both of their recoveries are average so who cares. >_>

Go away! This is fun! >:O

 

[1170]

-What specific troubles do you have with Lucario as a Marth player? Does Lucario shut down any of your game?

His projectile spam - but that's not a big deal (fan, SH an air dodge, jump over them, roll, etc.). My biggest problems come when I am under him. Ouch.

-What advantages do you feel Lucario has against you?

When he is above Marth he certainly does. From a distance he has projectiles. His grabs are awesomly strong, and his fsmash is longer than Marth's. Actually, when Marth is above Lucario Lucario has the advantage (when Lucario is on the ground, at least).

-What disadvantages do you feel Lucario has against you?

If I can approach at a 45 degree angle to Lucario's projectile spam, then I can usually land something. Any time Lucario is not fsmashing and is to the left or right of Marth Lucario is in trouble. Oh, and any time I can get Lucario off the stage, he's dead (obvious hyperbole, but you get the picture - Marth>Lucario in the air). I've timed his up-b so I can spike him out of it, and edgehogging works well too (well, maybe only because the Lucario I play against has trouble wall clinging). I play a pretty aggro Marth off stage, so Lucario's up-b's start up time is all too often more than enough.

-Is there any method or strategic goal you would use to win this match?

Getting Lucario off the stage or into the air. Lucario's ground game is better IMO than his air game, so I always go for fairs and the air in general.

 

[The_Marth_Madness]

Lucario's forward smash REALLY shines in this matchup. If hes far enough so he won't get punished from the start up lag, he can just charge it and wait for you to approach. I know this sounds really stupid, but he has zero lag out of this move and he can easily keep you at bay with it and punish your approach.

His projectile isn't a problem at all.

His roll is rediculously fast and he can use it as if it were a moving apotdodge to punish your lag.

I have to go, so I'll continue this later.

 

[adumbrodeus]

No. Just...no. Even if it's predictable if you try to disrupt it you get beat in the face/ Marth's Up B has almost no startup frames, invincibility frames, HITS, and can stage spike. Lucario is extremely easy to edgeguard when you're Marth. And then you can hog the edge quite easy as well, I don't really mind which direction you're heading. The fact that it doesn't hit really makes it suck, despite the wall cling.

If you're recovering from far from the stage, which a good Marth player will force any easily gimped character to do, you get ledge hogged. If you recover high, you land on the stage, most likely, and are vulnerable to being set up. the only thing that' decent is that on a stage like FD, when recovering low, you can wall cling which any smart player would not grab the ledge in this certain instance lest he get B aired. Even then you just make it back to the stage where Marth has a pretty clear cut advantage over you, and you're close enough to the edge to set up for more gimping.

So no, Lucario's recovery =/= Marth's

As for the topic in general, ahem. That Fsmash is so annoying. My friend who I play against often mains Luke and I STILL haven't gotten used to that things deceptive as hell range. His neutral A racks up some nice damage. Constant Aura Spheres make it hard to concentrate sometimes, but only in like heated situations. Rolling behind a Dancing Blade combo is frustrating. I really like Luke's Utilt in general, so eh. Grabs hurt. Never edgeguard. Never try to fire a big *** aura sphere, please, I can short hop over it.

Thats about it

That's about Marth's GIMP GAME


The recoveries are about even, with the edge going to lucario (though this evaporates on stages which can't be wall-clinged/jumped), he's got enough control and enough options to outdo Marth's linear recovery, in spite of his lack of a hitbox.


That said, in this particular match-up, Lucario's recovery is particularly vulnerable due to Marth's gimp game (which happens to be particularly good at countering Lucario's recovery options).

Marth's recovery is worse, but Lucario doesn't have anywhere near the level of strong answers to Marth's recovery as Marth has to his.



So, Lucario's recovery is stronger then Marth's, but Marth's off-stage survivability is stronger then lucario's.

 

[Shök]

Didn't expect so many replies, but Yeah.
Their recoveries are average.
Mah Bayad.

 

[Pierce7d]

Eh, Lucario's hyper fast roll-dodge used to give me trouble, but I just developed some patience. Lucario's Fsmash = cake on my birthday (mad predictable and easy to counter)

Marth is better on the ground. Dancing Blade is just fast. Lucario MUST punish. Both SHFairs are about the same in use, I can't give you data, but they work the same, and both essentially "combo" the same. Marth can gimp Lucario a lot easier than visa, versa though, and sometimes I don't even have to score an outright K.O. Lucario. He's easy to Fair off the stage over and over because his UpB has no hitbox and really gimpable start up lag.

I rarely ever lose to Lucario's these days, but I can't call the matchup because I developed and anti-Lucario strat, since I used to lose to them a lot.