Social Lower Norfair

[Dalek_Kolt]

I can see Ridley working together if only to try to backstab Ganondorf in the end. I don't think they'd genuinely work together. Both are the type to not want to work with others and wouldn't want the other to achieve some kind of ultimate power or something.

Really? Because I can only think of two games (Prime and Other M) where Ridley doesn't have some kind of superior to answer to.
I mean I guess Mother Brain/Dark Samus could have used mind control, but still, the impression I got was that the reason why it took until Samus Returns to make Ridley the final boss rather than penultimate is that he himself doesn't care about attaining ultimate power. He seems to enjoy being a destructive mass murderer far more than he desires to conquer the universe.
That's why I think his relationship with Ganondorf would be the best among the villain alliances; In return for helping Ganondorf conquer the world, Ganondorf permits Ridley to cause suffering and death that wouldn't be possible in a Good-ruled world. As long as Ridley has villages/planets to raze, he'll have no beef with Ganondorf unless he decides Ridley's outlived his usefulness.

 

[IsmaR]

All I'm getting out of this is that Ridley would be Starscream.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

All I'm getting out of this is that Ridley would be Starscream.

I dunno, I see him more as Soundwave.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Really? Because I can only think of two games (Prime and Other M) where Ridley doesn't have some kind of superior to answer to.

I mean, in every Metroid game, Ridley doesn't answer to anybody. He's part of High Command just as Mother Brain is. He's just more of an enforcer because he's super strong and can actually move (sans MB with legs). He's like Darth Vader, but if Darth Vader was equal in authority to the Emperor. Enforcer, but also one of the leaders. One enforces, leads actual troops, etc.; one controls communications, technology, operations, etc.

In Prime, since at that point Mother Brain is being rebuilt back on Zebes, he's entirely at the top until Mother Brain returns in Super and they return to the same level of authority.

In Other M, it's just well you know not Ridley so yeah.

I mean I guess Mother Brain/Dark Samus could have used mind control, but still, the impression I got was that the reason why it took until Samus Returns to make Ridley the final boss rather than penultimate is that he himself doesn't care about attaining ultimate power. He seems to enjoy being a destructive mass murderer far more than he desires to conquer the universe.

I think Ridley just ends up being the final boss of Samus Returns because they wanted to add an explicit tie-in from the Prime Trilogy to the main storyline, and they wanted to add another hype boss sequence at the end, and to include Ridley because why not. I don't think it has anything to do with what Ridley desires at the time. Just gives us more info on what leads into the Baby's arc.

Personally I would align Ridley's desire for destruction with his desire to conquer. They are one in the same. He conquers to consume and kill and propagate the Space Pirates, and kills so he can conquer. Anything he does is solely to his and the Pirates' benefit. It just so happens that he really likes killing and that conquering is easier done by killing people.

That's why I think his relationship with Ganondorf would be the best among the villain alliances; In return for helping Ganondorf conquer the world, Ganondorf permits Ridley to cause suffering and death that wouldn't be possible in a Good-ruled world. As long as Ridley has villages/planets to raze, he'll have no beef with Ganondorf unless he decides Ridley's outlived his usefulness.

See, I don't think that because why does Ridley need Ganondorf's permission to cause suffering and death? He already does that. He doesn't need or want any permission anyway. If anything, I would assume Ridley would be against Ganondorf because Ganondorf, by getting all-powerful or ruling the world or whatever, could potentially get in the way of Ridley's thirst to consume, kill, and propagate the Space Pirates. By virtue of being another strong being, Ridley would likely want to terminate them, as they'd be a threat.

As I said earlier, heroes like each other and hate bad guys, but bad guys almost always hate good guys and the other bad guys. As far as I'm concerned, I figure if someone isn't aligned with Ridley and the Pirates, they are against him. And that would be enough for him to fight them as well.

Which is something I think would be interesting. Having Ganondorf, Bowser, etc. run the Subspace Army, but have to deal with Ridley, who is pursuing his own thing and causing trouble for the both of them. This is often how it goes down in Metroid games anyway -- Samus has beef with a villain, but Ridley shows up and interjects, beefing with Samus or both of them.

 

[Arcanir]

I would argue that Dark Samus in Prime 3 is above Ridley in terms of leadership, at least for the Pirate Homeworld he's stationed at in the game as the Scans imply she forcibly took over the Space Pirates by subjugating their will to her. Ridley is never stated to be on par with her in terms of power and is just designated to be the Leviathan's guardian, something that he's never stated to have issue with (whether due to the corruption or otherwise). Additionally, while Mother Brain also takes advantage of the Space Pirate's hive mind mentality, Ridley is never shown to take issue with her rise in power and plans as well, pretty much going along with it just as long as he gets to do what he does.

Due to that, I think he'd only have an issue with Bowser (and by association, Bowser Jr.) as he's very selfish in his designs and doesn't really share his power, both would probably try to backstab the other once everything is said and done. Ganondorf is similar, but he's shown to be more cooperative, so I think Ridley wouldn't mind working with him just as long as Ganondorf doesn't interfere with his own desires to subjugate, pillage, and burn within his own sphere of influence. Wolf and Ridley I'm not sure as he kicked out Pigma (in one timeline at least), but he allows Leon to stick around despite being a sadist, so it may depend on how willing both are to cooperate towards a shared goal.

 

[vVv Rapture]

I would argue that Dark Samus in Prime 3 is above Ridley in terms of leadership, at least for the Pirate Homeworld he's stationed at in the game as the Scans imply she forcibly took over the Space Pirates by subjugating their will to her. Ridley is never stated to be on par with her in terms of power and is just designated to be the Leviathan's guardian, something that he's never stated to have issue with (whether due to the corruption or otherwise). Additionally, while Mother Brain also takes advantage of the Space Pirate's hive mind mentality, Ridley is never shown to take issue with her rise in power and plans as well, pretty much going along with it just as long as he gets to do what he does.

This is obviously not the same though. Dark Samus has mind controlled Ridley and the Pirates, so "authority" and "leadership" go out the window because the victims aren't in control. They might be coherent or conscious, but they certainly aren't in their regular state of mind. We all know Dark Samus doesn't really "lead" Ridley or the Pirates nor would Ridley have ever considered her to be someone to answer to.


As for Mother Brain, of course he would, she's part of the High Command. She serves a purpose as authority in the Pirates as much as Ridley does, but in different ways. She's affiliated and aligned with the Pirates. and propagates the Pirate cause just like she does, so of course Ridley has no issue with that. They are allies. Her plans are his plans, and her being powerful only helps Ridley. Ridley takes advantage of the Pirate's hive mind as much as Mother Brain does, that's the whole point. That's why they're High Command.

Due to that, I think he'd only have an issue with Bowser (and by association, Bowser Jr.) as he's very selfish in his designs and doesn't really share his power, both would probably try to backstab the other once everything is said and done. Ganondorf is similar, but he's shown to be more cooperative, so I think Ridley wouldn't mind working with him just as long as Ganondorf doesn't interfere with his own desires to subjugate, pillage, and burn within his own sphere of influence. Wolf and Ridley I'm not sure as he kicked out Pigma (in one timeline at least), but he allows Leon to stick around despite being a sadist, so it may depend on how willing both are to cooperate towards a shared goal.

I honestly just don't think Ridley would work with anyone that's not a Space Pirate. By virtue of not being a Space Pirate, they conflict with Ridley and thus would be considered an enemy. Plus, as far as he's concerned, Ridley probably sees no reason to align with any non-Pirate anyway because he probably think they aren't as strong as him. Ridley is smart too -- if they aren't a Pirate, but want to be strong and powerful, then they are a threat and need to be dealt with. I doubt Ridley would align himself with anyone that could potentially pose a threat to him.

I mean, that's probably why we never saw Ridley directly working with the Subspace Army in Brawl, but only going after Samus individually. Because he knows personally (and is biased bc he's fought Samus much more than anyone else in Brawl) that Samus is the highest threat to his success, so he goes out of his way to annihilate her. It probably had nothing to do with the Subspace Army. If he was successful in killing Samus in the Subspace Emissary, I wouldn't be surprised if he either avoided the Subspace Army entirely or acted against them once Samus was out of the way.

Bowser, Wolf, Dedede, none of them would be even worth his time. I can see Ridley going after Ganondorf and wanting to kill him, because he could probably surmise that Ganondorf is the strongest villain.

 

[Arcanir]

This is obviously not the same though. Dark Samus has mind controlled Ridley and the Pirates, so "authority" and "leadership" go out the window because the victims aren't in control. They might be coherent or conscious, but they certainly aren't in their regular state of mind. We all know Dark Samus doesn't really "lead" Ridley or the Pirates nor would Ridley have ever considered her to be someone to answer to.

Fair point.

As for Mother Brain, of course he would, she's part of the High Command. She serves a purpose as authority in the Pirates as much as Ridley does, but in different ways. She's affiliated and aligned with the Pirates. and propagates the Pirate cause just like she does, so of course Ridley has no issue with that. They are allies. Her plans are his plans, and her being powerful only helps Ridley. Ridley takes advantage of the Pirate's hive mind as much as Mother Brain does, that's the whole point. That's why they're High Command.

However, you have to remember that Mother Brain wasn't originally a part of the Space Pirate, she functionally wormed her way in by taking advantage of Ridley's hive minded soldiers and stationed herself at the top. Ridley didn't have to share the leadership role with her, he could've killed her for forcing herself into the role, but he still worked with her and that's because regardless of her clearly using them for her own ends her goals still aligned enough with his that it didn't cause a conflict.

That's why I don't think Ganondorf would be an issue. Even if Ganondorf were to forcibly take control like Mother Brain, he could still work with him since their goals are the same: they want conquest, they want chaos, and Ganondorf is not adverse to letting sadists into his ranks. I don't see Ganondorf as a character that Ridley would have an issue with unless he did something that would conflict with his goals, but Ganondorf's goals are not really that far off from Mother Brain's and I don't think any of the differences would cause Ridley to change his opinion on the matter.

I honestly just don't think Ridley would work with anyone that's not a Space Pirate. By virtue of not being a Space Pirate, they conflict with Ridley and thus would be considered an enemy. Plus, as far as he's concerned, Ridley probably sees no reason to align with any non-Pirate anyway because he probably think they aren't as strong as him. Ridley is smart too -- if they aren't a Pirate, but want to be strong and powerful, then they are a threat and need to be dealt with. I doubt Ridley would align himself with anyone that could potentially pose a threat to him.

But would Ganondorf try to be an enemy of the Space Pirates? He does manipulate, but he's not one to slaughter potential allies as long as they have a potentially shared goal, and the Space Pirate's desire for pillaging and possible conquest does not interfere with his own. At worst Ganondorf would see the Space Pirates as potential servants, and as long as their goals align he wouldn't toss them aside as long as they have worth to him, and as long as he allows Ridley to do what he does I don't think Ridley would go against him.

Also, to repeat myself, Mother Brain was also a non-Space Pirate, yet Ridley still accepted her into a leadership role. I don't think Ganondorf would be any different from her in that regard.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

If Ultimate gets a story mode, this is who I want to see in the villain faction with a brief explanation:
Bowser: Leader (Villain of Nintendo's most iconic franchise)
Ganondorf: Puppetmaster (Favorite trick in his own games is manipulating other villains to work for him, taking center stage as the true antagonist in the end. Will usurp Bowser at some point)
Ridley: Second-in-command/Heavy (Penultimate boss in most Metroid games. Once Bowser is usurped, will switch allegiances to Ganondorf)
Mewtwo: Genius/Strategist (has psychic powers, could easily brainwash neutral characters like Dedede or Wario into their ranks)
Wolf: Brute (Does a lot of fighting and dirty work but is more disposable than the others. Often teams up with Ridley.)
Bowser Jr.: Tinkerer (Tagalong villain that Bowser keeps close. In charge of any inventions or vehicles the villains use, though it's really Bowser's Koopa Troop that are responsible for their creation.)

 

[meleebrawler]

If Ultimate gets a story mode, this is who I want to see in the villain faction with a brief explanation:
Bowser: Leader (Villain of Nintendo's most iconic franchise)
Ganondorf: Puppetmaster (Favorite trick in his own games is manipulating other villains to work for him, taking center stage as the true antagonist in the end. Will usurp Bowser at some point)
Ridley: Second-in-command/Heavy (Penultimate boss in most Metroid games. Once Bowser is usurped, will switch allegiances to Ganondorf)
Mewtwo: Genius/Strategist (has psychic powers, could easily brainwash neutral characters like Dedede or Wario into their ranks)
Wolf: Brute (Does a lot of fighting and dirty work but is more disposable than the others. Often teams up with Ridley.)
Bowser Jr.: Tinkerer (Tagalong villain that Bowser keeps close. In charge of any inventions or vehicles the villains use, though it's really Bowser's Koopa Troop that are responsible for their creation.)

I just don't see Mewtwo being a villain in Smash, even if he's still based on his movie interpretation. That version specifically had a beef against humans and natural-born Pokemon for serving them. A good chunk of the cast isn't that, and why would he even consider working for human-enough Ganonorf? Not to mention his turn to villainy is punctuated by ''I STAND ALONE!!!''. If he's based on game canon, then the only recourse to get him working for them would to overpower him, as being bested in battle is the only thing that makes him listen to anyone.

And for Wolf to work with them, there has to be some sort of monetary compensation to cover his work as a bounty hunter. That's why he works for Andross, even if only Pigma states and is obsessed over that. Fighting his chief rival Fox is just a bonus. Command shows it's not hard to convince him to do good work for sufficient pay, assuming there's even something equivalent to money in the Smash universe. It's just his status as a wanted criminal makes that kind of work hard to get for him.

 

[AndreaAC]

Fast or slow, your art will always be amazing Andrea!

T W T THANK YOU, I really appreciate it! Though the bad thing about all this Ridley inspiration is that I get so many ideas that the complex ones are harder to finish...I really wanted to get that Karma pic with the cursed Bunny and Ridley done, but I haven't gotten the motivation to finish it, or the perfect time to keep working on it, so, I apologize for that.

 

[BravadoMan_13]

View attachment 154965
XP I will enjoy thrashing it as well. xD I may or may not finish this later.

Your art is good as ever Andrea. I missed seeing your work over the two years I was absent from Smashboards. Though honestly, I'm not really familar with the bunny character. Ridley looks like he wants to tear that wabbit to shreds lol.

 

[AndreaAC]

Your art is good as ever Andrea. I missed seeing your work over the two years I was absent from Smashboards. Though honestly, I'm not really familar with the bunny character. Ridley looks like he wants to tear that wabbit to shreds lol.

^u^ THANK YOU, A BUNCH! Glad you think so! Oh...and you don't know?....oh my...well, let me show ya why Ridley wants to make him suffer:

There ya go. :D KARMA AND VENGEANCE ARE SWEET AND BETTER WHEN SERVED COLD.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Drawing a thing. it has some confirmed characters and some dream characters.

 

[ZTurtle]

I noticed a neat little detail on Ridley's Back throw when seeing it in slow motion, as you can see here:

I thought it was just your typical backwards toss like most back throws, but Ridley actually drags his opponent's back across the floor, and THEN tosses them. Sorry, I'm sure a lot of you have already noticed this, but I just thought this was just a super neat little detail that really showcases Ridley's brutality.

 

[meleebrawler]

There's a part of me that wants Zero or just stuff from Megaman X in general so that I can see the chemistry between Ridley and this guy:

Their roles and personalities are really quite similar if you think about it.

 

[Cosmic77]

Found this online. Not sure if it was posted yet, but it gave me a laugh.

You don't understand how much I've been enjoying these quirky Ridley drawings over the past two months. People have given him his own personality instead of just depicting him as a mindless monster like Nintendo typically does.

 

[Eldrake]

I see Ridley as someone who COULD be the main villain of Metroid who could plot Ganondorf-level diabolical schemes, but acts like a mindless screeching dragon under orders of some greater villain because he has more fun indulging his base instincts than actually applying himself.

He reminds me of Sauron.

"...but with intelligence and cunning like that, you could be the main antagonist of Metroid!"
"But I don't want to be the main antagonist. I want to maim and slaughter people."

 

[Diem]

You don't understand how much I've been enjoying these quirky Ridley drawings over the past two months. People have given him his own personality instead of just depicting him as a mindless monster like Nintendo typically does.

That's the power of Smash, for better and for worse. Characters otherwise ignored or unknown are brought into the mainstream and to the attention of artists.

For Metroid, it's awesome that Ridley is now being given some new love by people, cementing him as a major Nintendo character. On the other hand, Zero Suit Samus is no longer a neat endgame thing, but almost equally as popular as regular Samus, perhaps more.

 

[ZTurtle]

That's the power of Smash, for better and for worse. Characters otherwise ignored or unknown are brought into the mainstream and to the attention of artists.

For Metroid, it's awesome that Ridley is now being given some new love by people, cementing him as a major Nintendo character. On the other hand, Zero Suit Samus is no longer a neat endgame thing, but almost equally as popular as regular Samus, perhaps more.

After playing the ZSS segment in Zero Mission firsthand, I have to admit, I find it a little annoying how ZSS is so much better than regular Samus in Smash. Especially considering how she'll probably end up having a pretty favorable matchup against Ridley...

 

[OmegaX5000]

I just thought of something, considering how big the roster in Smash 4 was, if you re-organized the CSS to not be so awkward-looking it would look something like this:

If we replace the Random button with an actual character (like Ridley), that would leave us with enough space for 62 characters total (counting the Mii Fighters as 3 seperate characters of course) without having to shrink the icons on screen. We already know that there's at least 65 characters in Ultimate, and I have my doubts that Echo Fighters like Daisy or Lucina will lose their CSS spot just because of getting an official name now, so I'm wondering just how they'll squeeze in every fighter on one screen for the full roster in Ultimate or are they going to have to make a Page 2 button like in the 3DS version of Smash 4? I'm looking forward to seeing what the CSS will look like for the full roster in Ultimate when it comes out and just how they'll organize it along with where they place Ridley!

(Also, I didn't notice this until after I had finished making this image, but I find it funny how I put both Fire Emblem and Pokémon, aka the two franchises with 6 characters each, in the same row! )

 

[Diem]

After playing the ZSS segment in Zero Mission firsthand, I have to admit, I find it a little annoying how ZSS is so much better than regular Samus in Smash. Especially considering how she'll probably end up having a pretty favorable matchup against Ridley...

Not to mention Smash gave her a whip gun and rocket heels. Which is why, while there were some merits in Sakurai's "Ridley wouldn't be Ridley if he was a playable character" argument, it doesn't hold up too well when they just made up ridiculous equipment for ZSS and made her super powerful.

Her gun should've just been a normal gun, with heavy zoning capabilities, but her close range attacks would be weak. As in, give her some moves that shoot diagonally, some moves that stun, some moves that knock back, etc. Especially since we don't really have a really versatile, gun-heavy character in the roster. The Star Fox guys have blasters for one move, and that's it. Snake has some rocket guns, but they're more accessories than his main attacks. Mega Man is the only character with a decent variety of ranged gun attacks.

They should've introduced Dark Samus in Brawl instead, since there's a lot of unique opportunities for her and Brawl's development started a year after Metroid Prime 2 and released a year after Metroid Prime 3, so the time was, dare I say, prime. But recognition of the Prime series seems to not be very important to the Smash team.

 

[meleebrawler]

Not to mention Smash gave her a whip gun and rocket heels. Which is why, while there were some merits in Sakurai's "Ridley wouldn't be Ridley if he was a playable character" argument, it doesn't hold up too well when they just made up ridiculous equipment for ZSS and made her super powerful.

Her gun should've just been a normal gun, with heavy zoning capabilities, but her close range attacks would be weak. As in, give her some moves that shoot diagonally, some moves that stun, some moves that knock back, etc. Especially since we don't really have a really versatile, gun-heavy character in the roster. The Star Fox guys have blasters for one move, and that's it. Snake has some rocket guns, but they're more accessories than his main attacks. Mega Man is the only character with a decent variety of ranged gun attacks.

They should've introduced Dark Samus in Brawl instead, since there's a lot of unique opportunities for her and Brawl's development started a year after Metroid Prime 2 and released a year after Metroid Prime 3, so the time was, dare I say, prime. But recognition of the Prime series seems to not be very important to the Smash team.

Megaman is pushing the boundary of how many projectile moves you can give a character before any other character with a reflector hard counters you.

And unlike Megaman, Samus's beams don't differ much in function or trajectory, so trying to make a moveset with with would actually make Samus less versatile. A chargeable beam and missiles are pretty much staples for the whole Metroid franchise, the only change I'd make is some kind of ice move, since that element is just as key.

 

[Diem]

Megaman is pushing the boundary of how many projectile moves you can give a character before any other character with a reflector hard counters you.

And unlike Megaman, Samus's beams don't differ much in function or trajectory, so trying to make a moveset with with would actually make Samus less versatile. A chargeable beam and missiles are pretty much staples for the whole Metroid franchise, the only change I'd make is some kind of ice move, since that element is just as key.

I referring to ZSS, not normal Samus, though normal Samus could use some move tuneups since she's never been a very strong character due to her moves not being too good.

This guy came up with a really good moveset based on the Prime games, but as I said, Prime recognition is at a minimum in Smash. I'm surprised we even got a Meta Ridley skin.

 

[meleebrawler]

I referring to ZSS, not normal Samus, though normal Samus could use some move tuneups since she's never been a very strong character due to her moves not being too good.

This guy came up with a really good moveset based on the Prime games, but as I said, Prime recognition is at a minimum in Smash. I'm surprised we even got a Meta Ridley skin.

I'm pretty sure if any Samus is gonna have multiple beams, it's the one with the suit that compacts 255 missiles into energy instead of a tiny pistol. The way Samus seems to be shaping up in Ultimate will, as long as ZSS doesn't change too much (which I'm pretty sure they won't in order to preserve her combo identity), make her harder-hitting overall, and not just on her projectiles.

Looking at that moveset, especially the beams gives me bad Smash 4 custom vibes. Why would anyone use the Wave Beam in 1v1? Or omit a useful trap in bombs just for that?

The issue with the Prime games is that very little carries over from one game to the next. What makes the Light Beam more deserving of recognition than the Dark or Annihilator Beams, for example? Dark Samus is one of the very few things to exist in more than one game, which was enough for Assist status. The rest is mostly one-offs that are difficult to justify. Frigate Orpheon probably got in Brawl just for being recent and recognizable to people who didn't get far in the first game.

The only way Prime 2 is getting more recognition is with a Luminoth rep, one of the few races that it's possible to do more with.

 

[Diem]

I'm pretty sure if any Samus is gonna have multiple beams, it's the one with the suit that compacts 255 missiles into energy instead of a tiny pistol. The way Samus seems to be shaping up in Ultimate will, as long as ZSS doesn't change too much (which I'm pretty sure they won't in order to preserve her combo identity), make her harder-hitting overall, and not just on her projectiles.

Looking at that moveset, especially the beams gives me bad Smash 4 custom vibes. Why would anyone use the Wave Beam in 1v1? Or omit a useful trap in bombs just for that?

The issue with the Prime games is that very little carries over from one game to the next. What makes the Light Beam more deserving of recognition than the Dark or Annihilator Beams, for example? Dark Samus is one of the very few things to exist in more than one game, which was enough for Assist status. The rest is mostly one-offs that are difficult to justify. Frigate Orpheon probably got in Brawl just for being recent and recognizable to people who didn't get far in the first game.

The only way Prime 2 is getting more recognition is with a Luminoth rep, one of the few races that it's possible to do more with.

I never suggested that ZSS get multiple beams, just different applications for the pistol. I wasn't saying that the Prime Samus idea be applied to ZSS.

The different beams aren't meant to be custom moves, they're activated like Shulk's Monado Arts. This would give Samus some extra utility and represent her games a bit better, showing that she has more than just the Power Beam.

You raise a good point about how very little carries over between Prime games, and that's part of the difficulty in figuring out what to use or not. However, many other franchises and characters in Smash are the same way. Sheik only appeared in Ocarina of Time, Shulk only appeared in one game, Ness and Lucas only appear in one game each, and a lot of the Fire Emblem cast only have one-game appearances, for example. Samus's appearance in Smash 4 and Ultimate is also based off of her one appearance in Other M, a critically panned and commercially unsuccessful game, but she's never gotten her Prime design, which appeared in three games (Prime 2, 3, and Hunters).

I think it's just more that Sakurai isn't too big a fan of Metroid (not many people in Japan are), so he gives it less attention than other franchises (*cough*Fire Emblem*cough*). Though he has tried to give it some service here and there, and finally we have Ridley, Metroid gets the shaft a lot when it comes to content.

As much as I would love a Luminoth rep... I don't see that happening in a million years, sadly.

 

[meleebrawler]

I never suggested that ZSS get multiple beams, just different applications for the pistol. I wasn't saying that the Prime Samus idea be applied to ZSS.

The different beams aren't meant to be custom moves, they're activated like Shulk's Monado Arts. This would give Samus some extra utility and represent her games a bit better, showing that she has more than just the Power Beam.

You raise a good point about how very little carries over between Prime games, and that's part of the difficulty in figuring out what to use or not. However, many other franchises and characters in Smash are the same way. Sheik only appeared in Ocarina of Time, Shulk only appeared in one game, Ness and Lucas only appear in one game each, and a lot of the Fire Emblem cast only have one-game appearances, for example. Samus's appearance in Smash 4 and Ultimate is also based off of her one appearance in Other M, a critically panned and commercially unsuccessful game, but she's never gotten her Prime design, which appeared in three games (Prime 2, 3, and Hunters).

I think it's just more that Sakurai isn't too big a fan of Metroid (not many people in Japan are), so he gives it less attention than other franchises (*cough*Fire Emblem*cough*). Though he has tried to give it some service here and there, and finally we have Ridley, Metroid gets the shaft a lot when it comes to content.

As much as I would love a Luminoth rep... I don't see that happening in a million years, sadly.

I don't care how they're selected, the end result is the same: sacrificing a useful, distinct and iconic option (bombs) for beams of dubious merit over the original. Why use Ice to freeze an enemy for a potential kill when Power skips that step and gets a kill right away? Or if we're talking damage, why use it over the Plasma Beam that does a bunch of damage on it's own? And I already talked about what's wrong with the Wave Beam (pointless in 1v1), but I'll also mention it's charge combo looks really useless except for maybe stealing a kill like Heavenly Light. Don't get me wrong, I'd love a freezing move in Samus's repertoire, but not at the cost of her powerful projectile. As this moveset is, Power and Plasma are the only good beams.

The games you're comparing with Metroid is really an apples-and-oranges comparison. Especially for Shulk, where Xenoblade 1 was the only game in the franchise period at that point. And you're kind of underselling how massively popular Ocarina of Time was, and arguably still is, to the point of Melee's Zelda roster being entirely based on that game. Metroid Prime was big, but not ZELDA big.

And to be honest, I don't think the Prime design would look great in the 2D side perspective of Smash. The shoulder pads would cover up most of her head. Part of me also think it's just hard to convincingly translate movements from a 1st person perspective to third person. Just look at Prime 2 multiplayer, seeing other Samuses flip around in the air while their visor stays perfectly still...

 

[Diem]

I don't care how they're selected, the end result is the same: sacrificing a useful, distinct and iconic option (bombs) for beams of dubious merit over the original. Why use Ice to freeze an enemy for a potential kill when Power skips that step and gets a kill right away? Or if we're talking damage, why use it over the Plasma Beam that does a bunch of damage on it's own? And I already talked about what's wrong with the Wave Beam (pointless in 1v1), but I'll also mention it's charge combo looks really useless except for maybe stealing a kill like Heavenly Light. Don't get me wrong, I'd love a freezing move in Samus's repertoire, but not at the cost of her powerful projectile. As this moveset is, Power and Plasma are the only good beams.

The games you're comparing with Metroid is really an apples-and-oranges comparison. Especially for Shulk, where Xenoblade 1 was the only game in the franchise period at that point. And you're kind of underselling how massively popular Ocarina of Time was, and arguably still is, to the point of Melee's Zelda roster being entirely based on that game. Metroid Prime was big, but not ZELDA big.

And to be honest, I don't think the Prime design would look great in the 2D side perspective of Smash. The shoulder pads would cover up most of her head. Part of me also think it's just hard to convincingly translate movements from a 1st person perspective to third person. Just look at Prime 2 multiplayer, seeing other Samuses flip around in the air while their visor stays perfectly still...

The thing about Samus's current moveset, though, is that she's had it for 19 years and she's never been very good. Either she needs a new moveset, or her current moves need to be substantially reworked. Charging the Power Beam in the air is a good change, but that's not nearly enough to improve her. Some other little tweaks she's getting in Ultimate seem promising, but there's no telling whether it'll be enough, and I'm doubtful. In Smash 4, she was bottom tier at first, until she got huge buffs and tweaks in patch 1.1.5, which put her from bottom-of-the-barrel to just low tier. At that point, I don't know how else to improve the character. That moveset that guy came up was just one hypothetical idea of something new.

Yes, Xenoblade Chronicles 1 was the only game in the franchise, that's my point. Just because something or someone only appears in one game doesn't mean that they're inherently excluded from consideration, as you said that "one-off" things are difficult to justify. And I know full well how popular Ocarina of Time is, and I'm not saying that Sheik shouldn't have been in the game or should be cut. My point was that Sheik was a "one-off," not a recurring character. Of course Metroid isn't as popular as Zelda, but it's not like I'm insisting that Sylux or Rundas get put into Smash, like some crazy people do. I'm just saying that by the time Brawl came out, Samus's Prime design had been in use for three whole games, but she still used her old design. Then by Smash 4, the Other M design was used once, and that became her design for the next two games. We didn't even get the Samus Returns design, yet Mario gets costumes based off of a game that came out a month later. With apathy like that, it's a surprise we got Ridley at all.

How are the shoulder pads any different from any other Samus design? Because what you're describing is exactly what Melee was like, until they fixed her pose in Brawl where the shoulder pads are also huge, which is the same pose they use for Smash 4. The Other M Varia Suit is the only one that has smaller shoulder pads, relative to every other version, including the latest design in Samus Returns (where I swear they're even bigger than usual). Heck, Project M has a Dark Suit alt costume from Metroid Prime 2, and it looks fine. And what does perspective have to do with anything? No one said anything about taking the exact animations from Metroid Prime games and putting them into Smash. Just as I'm pretty sure they didn't take the animations from Other M and put them into Smash.

~~~

On an unrelated note, apparently the Smash 4 Grand Finals at EVO were an utter ****show. The two players were Bayonetta players, so most of the audience left before the game even began. And then during the game (these two players are apparently friends), one of the players gave the other a homie stock, and then they spent two minutes (literally) spamming neutral B and having a conversation until an EVO rep came and made them knock it off. At the grand finals. And they both got away with it, despite it being collusion, because apparently rules are hardly enforced for Smash tournaments.

Can't wait for Ultimate. Can't wait for Ridley. Can't wait for Dark Samus.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The thing about Samus's current moveset, though, is that she's had it for 19 years and she's never been very good. Either she needs a new moveset, or her current moves need to be substantially reworked. Charging the Power Beam in the air is a good change, but that's not nearly enough to improve her. Some other little tweaks she's getting in Ultimate seem promising, but there's no telling whether it'll be enough, and I'm doubtful. In Smash 4, she was bottom tier at first, until she got huge buffs and tweaks in patch 1.1.5, which put her from bottom-of-the-barrel to just low tier. At that point, I don't know how else to improve the character. That moveset that guy came up was just one hypothetical idea of something new.

Yes, Xenoblade Chronicles 1 was the only game in the franchise, that's my point. Just because something or someone only appears in one game doesn't mean that they're inherently excluded from consideration, as you said that "one-off" things are difficult to justify. And I know full well how popular Ocarina of Time is, and I'm not saying that Sheik shouldn't have been in the game or should be cut. My point was that Sheik was a "one-off," not a recurring character. Of course Metroid isn't as popular as Zelda, but it's not like I'm insisting that Sylux or Rundas get put into Smash, like some crazy people do. I'm just saying that by the time Brawl came out, Samus's Prime design had been in use for three whole games, but she still used her old design. Then by Smash 4, the Other M design was used once, and that became her design for the next two games. We didn't even get the Samus Returns design, yet Mario gets costumes based off of a game that came out a month later. With apathy like that, it's a surprise we got Ridley at all.

How are the shoulder pads any different from any other Samus design? Because what you're describing is exactly what Melee was like, until they fixed her pose in Brawl where the shoulder pads are also huge, which is the same pose they use for Smash 4. The Other M Varia Suit is the only one that has smaller shoulder pads, relative to every other version, including the latest design in Samus Returns (where I swear they're even bigger than usual). Heck, Project M has a Dark Suit alt costume from Metroid Prime 2, and it looks fine. And what does perspective have to do with anything? No one said anything about taking the exact animations from Metroid Prime games and putting them into Smash. Just as I'm pretty sure they didn't take the animations from Other M and put them into Smash.

~~~

On an unrelated note, apparently the Smash 4 Grand Finals at EVO were an utter ****show. The two players were Bayonetta players, so most of the audience left before the game even began. And then during the game (these two players are apparently friends), one of the players gave the other a homie stock, and then they spent two minutes (literally) spamming neutral B and having a conversation until an EVO rep came and made them knock it off. At the grand finals. And they both got away with it, despite it being collusion, because apparently rules are hardly enforced for Smash tournaments.

Can't wait for Ultimate. Can't wait for Ridley. Can't wait for Dark Samus.

I mean when the community boos them (the finalists who're also minors) for years just because they're playing along with the game's rules, they deserve no respect imo. It's not good sportsmanship to boo players all the damn time, I don't care if it was disappointing, you treat those players who earned their spot in the finals with respect and no be **** to them for years because of their character.

Also yes I would welcome a new Samus kit because she honestly deserves better

 

[meleebrawler]

The thing about Samus's current moveset, though, is that she's had it for 19 years and she's never been very good. Either she needs a new moveset, or her current moves need to be substantially reworked. Charging the Power Beam in the air is a good change, but that's not nearly enough to improve her. Some other little tweaks she's getting in Ultimate seem promising, but there's no telling whether it'll be enough, and I'm doubtful. In Smash 4, she was bottom tier at first, until she got huge buffs and tweaks in patch 1.1.5, which put her from bottom-of-the-barrel to just low tier. At that point, I don't know how else to improve the character. That moveset that guy came up was just one hypothetical idea of something new.
.

Well that moveset wasn't really new outside of four different brands of charge beams and missiles. It doesn't seem to try to make Samus better, just different for difference's sake. Maybe you can turn her into a Megaman style zoner, but have you looked at her Melee incarnation? 10th, actually quite a good placement, so it's not impossible for Samus to be good the way she is either. Zoners in general benefit from less forgiving airdodges and slower shield drops, and the trend of returning Samus's heavy hits continues after they were unfairly stripped in Brawl.

64 Samus I'd say is the only truly bad incarnation, having only a single projectile that needs charging, no zair and of course, near inability to combo. Brawl Samus had a solid foundation but was just very undertuned, nerfs damningly brought upon by ZSS being the same character, hence melee attacks were gutted to make the latter look good.

 

[Diem]

Oh crap, new Smash Direct on Wednesday at 7am PT/10am ET! Get ready!

I mean when the community boos them (the finalists who're also minors) for years just because they're playing along with the game's rules, they deserve no respect imo. It's not good sportsmanship to boo players all the damn time, I don't care if it was disappointing, you treat those players who earned their spot in the finals with respect and no be **** to them for years because of their character.

Yeah, the Bayonetta hate is pretty disappointing. People forget that there was a time over two years ago where her announcement was awesome and most people loved it. Because whether or not you believe Bayonetta was added due to the ballot or not, there was a lot of support for her back in 2015 because she seemed like a cool, reasonable choice of character given Platinum's new relationship with Nintendo.

But how she turned out in the actual game has retroactively turned a lot of that excitement and support into vitriol. People think that Sakurai was lying about her ballot results, which I feel is anachronistically letting present feelings color the past. Back during that Direct in 2016, almost no one would've debated that Bayonetta's listed ballot results, because she had a lot of support back then for the reasons above. Now, because the character's balance turned out so bad, people are acting like that support was never there, like she should have never been in the game. It's ridiculous.

Hopefully she gets rebalanced and the stigma can go away, like with Meta Knight from Brawl to 4. I don't play Bayonetta, as I'm not really a fan, but I thought her announcement and inclusion was cool. When it comes to Smash, I just want people to be happy and get the characters they really want, within reason. Similarly, I haven't played Final Fantasy VII (yet), but I thought Cloud's inclusion was amazing, and I loved seeing Maximillian lose his damn mind.

 

[soviet prince]

Oh crap, new Smash Direct on Wednesday at 7am PT/10am ET! Get ready!


Yeah, the Bayonetta hate is pretty disappointing. People forget that there was a time over two years ago where her announcement was awesome and most people loved it. Because whether or not you believe Bayonetta was added due to the ballot or not, there was a lot of support for her back in 2015 because she seemed like a cool, reasonable choice of character given Platinum's new relationship with Nintendo.

But how she turned out in the actual game has retroactively turned a lot of that excitement and support into vitriol. People think that Sakurai was lying about her ballot results, which I feel is anachronistically letting present feelings color the past. Back during that Direct in 2016, almost no one would've debated that Bayonetta's listed ballot results, because she had a lot of support back then for the reasons above. Now, because the character's balance turned out so bad, people are acting like that support was never there, like she should have never been in the game. It's ridiculous.

Hopefully she gets rebalanced and the stigma can go away, like with Meta Knight from Brawl to 4. I don't play Bayonetta, as I'm not really a fan, but I thought her announcement and inclusion was cool. When it comes to Smash, I just want people to be happy and get the characters they really want, within reason. Similarly, I haven't played Final Fantasy VII (yet), but I thought Cloud's inclusion was amazing, and I loved seeing Maximillian lose his damn mind.

her support was not nearly enough to be the top of the ballet I did not believe it then and I defiantly don't believe it now, if they said cloud was the one I would been more likely to believe. Dataminers even found code that showed she was planned before the ballet even ended.

 

[Diem]

her support was not nearly enough to be the top of the ballet I did not believe it then and I defiantly don't believe it now, if they said cloud was the one I would been more likely to believe. Dataminers even found code that showed she was planned before the ballet even ended.

I mean, the ballot started in April 2015, Bayonetta 2 came out in October 2014, so Bayonetta was popular at the time and seen as somewhat of a second-party Nintendo character due to Nintendo being the ones to fund the game's development. With Bayonetta 3 also being Switch exclusive, that pretty much seals the deal. So I knew a lot of people who were advocating for her inclusion, especially around the time of the ballot, like these guys. It's why I wasn't surprised when Bayonetta was added and announced as the ballot winner. Of course, that came with the asterisk "among realizable characters," so Ridley was probably first, but because of Pyrosphere he wasn't realizable. Might be part of why Sakurai planned Ultimate that year, so he could realize the other characters.

As for the datamining thing, that stuff was added in two weeks after the ballot began, right? The way I look at it, at that point, most of the ballot votes would be in by that time. Sure the ballot went on for several more months, but most of the votes are going to come in within the first two weeks, the same way, say, a video from a YouTuber gets the most views in the first two weeks, and in the following months those views taper off exponentially. So could it mean that Bayonetta was added independent of the ballot? Yes. Could it mean that most of the votes came in during those two weeks, and many of them were going to Bayonetta, so they decided on her then? Also yes. The datamining doesn't mean anything conclusive, so until Sakurai or someone says otherwise, it's not unreasonable to think that Bayonetta was added due to the ballot. Again, it's people's hate for Bayonetta making them jump to conclusions.

 

[meleebrawler]

Oh crap, new Smash Direct on Wednesday at 7am PT/10am ET! Get ready!


Yeah, the Bayonetta hate is pretty disappointing. People forget that there was a time over two years ago where her announcement was awesome and most people loved it. Because whether or not you believe Bayonetta was added due to the ballot or not, there was a lot of support for her back in 2015 because she seemed like a cool, reasonable choice of character given Platinum's new relationship with Nintendo.

But how she turned out in the actual game has retroactively turned a lot of that excitement and support into vitriol. People think that Sakurai was lying about her ballot results, which I feel is anachronistically letting present feelings color the past. Back during that Direct in 2016, almost no one would've debated that Bayonetta's listed ballot results, because she had a lot of support back then for the reasons above. Now, because the character's balance turned out so bad, people are acting like that support was never there, like she should have never been in the game. It's ridiculous.

Hopefully she gets rebalanced and the stigma can go away, like with Meta Knight from Brawl to 4. I don't play Bayonetta, as I'm not really a fan, but I thought her announcement and inclusion was cool. When it comes to Smash, I just want people to be happy and get the characters they really want, within reason. Similarly, I haven't played Final Fantasy VII (yet), but I thought Cloud's inclusion was amazing, and I loved seeing Maximillian lose his damn mind.

It probably doesn't help being third party. Even if Brawl Meta Knight was debatably even more broken than Bayonetta was, no one would dare suggest he shouldn't have been in the game to begin with due to being a core part of first-party franchise Kirby.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It probably doesn't help being third party. Even if Brawl Meta Knight was debatably even more broken than Bayonetta was, no one would dare suggest he shouldn't have been in the game to begin with due to being a core part of first-party franchise Kirby.

I mean. There WERE people childish enough to want him cut because of how he defined the meta game, I saw it all the time on Miiverse.

Personally, I think some people are just ridiculously childish in the Smash community and they have the tendency to ruin people's fun

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Working on something dumb; If Ridley was confirmed in Brawl

When I finish, might do a Wii U sequel

 

[AndreaAC]

Working on something dumb; If Ridley was in Brawl
View attachment 155954
When I finish, might do a Wii U sequel

o3o Oooooh! :D I look forward to the finished deal, Dalek! Also, do you still have that size comparison chart of Ridley's forms and Samus?

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

o3o Oooooh! :D I look forward to the finished deal, Dalek! Also, do you still have that size comparison chart of Ridley's forms and Samus?

Looks like size had an overflow error.

 

[meleebrawler]

Found this online. Not sure if it was posted yet, but it gave me a laugh.

You don't understand how much I've been enjoying these quirky Ridley drawings over the past two months. People have given him his own personality instead of just depicting him as a mindless monster like Nintendo typically does.

And all it took was a hat twirl and a face that can move to make him into a troll.

 

[Diem]

Working on something dumb; If Ridley was confirmed in Brawl
View attachment 155954
When I finish, might do a Wii U sequel

Wii U? Nah man, try Melee for maximum ridiculousness:

And all it took was a hat twirl and a face that can move to make him into a troll.

He's been a troll for a while now. In the manga, in his first meeting with Samus as an adult, he was basically like "I ate your parents lmao." And then in Metroid Prime 3, he was just chilling out at the top of a reactor shaft for a few minutes waiting to ambush Samus. You just don't get too much of that in the games, but Smash is the perfect setting to show off more of his sadistic personality.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If we're talking about Villain's roles in a team up...

Ridley would be the attack dog/assassin.

He'd be the one who'd go after certain targets because that's what he's good at and its what he loves doing.